New research: natural gas appliances emit much more methane than realized

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00240-1

by softwarebeware • 4 years ago

83 137 4 years ago

nature.com

tupac_speedrap• 4 years ago

Can I borrow £200 to read the article please?

dflock• 4 years ago

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

Syonyk• 4 years ago

No access to it...

However, that's unsurprising.

Literally every time someone tries to figure out how much methane there should be based on published leak rates and such, and then goes to measure out there somewhere, they find radically more methane in the air than there "should be." And it's very hard to track back to where it's all coming from.

It seems methane leaks from just about everything, and it's far from the "climate savior" it's been made out to be. It's not carbon emissions, it's just far worse over the short term.

colincooke4• 4 years ago

This is the actual paper the article is based on if you want to read more than the token few sentences Nature doesn't put behind a paywall:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

hgomersall4• 4 years ago

I remember reading somewhere that much of the emissions blamed on the meat and dairy industry were actually due to the oil industry not being transparent. I may have misremembered or misunderstood, but it all seems very fishy to me.

eb0la• 4 years ago

But according to the European Union, Natural Gas is a green energy source...

I guess burning 100% methane in natural gas without leaks could make it greener, but it is not possible.

mrfusion• 4 years ago

It’s strange we don’t have any clue how much methane we put into the atmosphere. It makes me wonder if we’re overestimating the warming effect of CO2?

jcranberry• 4 years ago

This has been out for a while now. It's paywalled but I recognize the half-a-million cars figure. The passive leakages from stoves and the infrastructure right?

jeffbee3• 4 years ago

You know what else emits the CO2 of half a million cars? Half a million cars, and there are 580 halfs of millions of cars in the U.S. alone.

Caring about the greenhouse impact of gas appliances is like profiling your computer system and then trying to optimize the thing at the bottom of the list.

SketchySeaBeast• 4 years ago

Isn't the assumption that you're working in serial? Given that this work can be done in parallel and many areas will take a long time, why not work on as many as possible?

aedocw• 4 years ago

Or like telling folks in California to stop watering their lawns and take shorter showers when there's a water shortage. BUT keeping the focus on personal responsibility rather than industry is the name of the game.

colincooke4• 4 years ago

On a related note, gas appliances have pretty substanial adverse health effects: https://mobile.twitter.com/curious_founder/status/1481746460...

Even if I wasn't against fossil fuel based appliances in principle, this was enough to make me actively worry about living in a house with a gas stove.

throwawayboise• 4 years ago

I imagine it's better than the coal and wood stoves that previous generations used. I have gas appliances and would not trade them for anything.

colincooke4• 4 years ago

Totally agree better than coal, and to each their own on your personal risk tolerance. Although if it's the heat control/speed of gas that you love maybe look into induction? I've heard great things and thats what I plan on using (coil stoves are just not very good) once I buy a stove (currently a renter).

Scoundreller2• 4 years ago

From the indoor perspective,

Won’t the coal or wood stove draw indoor air out, which would get replenished by drawing outside air inside?

Meanwhile the gas stove just vents it’s exhaust into room air?

nomel5• 4 years ago

I have gas appliances and would not trade them for anything.

Why? I have gas, but induction, and the new one's that support temperature control of the pan itself, seem really neat. For baking, when I had electric, I would add a little container of water to maintain a little humidity, when needed.

Being able to maintain heat, while lifting the pan, is nice.

__turbobrew__• 4 years ago

Same. Nothing compares to gas appliances when it comes to putting raw energy into your cookware. Also, nothing compares to broiling food in a gas oven. You can also use the burner flame as a utility to do things like toasting tortillas.

brimble7• 4 years ago

May be swapping ours soon since the gas stove is malfunctioning anyway (won't hold temp, have to constantly screw with it).

I'm happy about improving air quality, but not happy that it's gonna be significantly more expensive than getting another gas stove :-/

I'm glad I can afford it but every time I see one of those "electric's not god-awful anymore, induction's amazing!" posts on Twitter or Reddit or whatever it's like... yeah, great solution for us folks with plenty of disposable income, I guess.

Not sure how I'm going to make certain kinds of flatbread that I heat directly on the flame. I'll figure something out I suppose.

Reports of the tops being easy to crack worry me, too. I don't like having to baby kitchen equipment.

[EDIT] Hrm. Reading about cooking technique on them, I'm not sure I'd be able to make scrambled eggs (that didn't suck). My technique relies heavily on being able to move the pan on and off the burner. I guess... I could live with just not making scrambled eggs.

Baeocystin3• 4 years ago

Do what a lot of people already do, and use one of those butane-powered single-burner units. Just about any asian grocery store will have them + the fuel for sale. I use one for when I need a flame char, or flame control for something finicky that my induction top can't handle, and they work great.

germinalphrase3• 4 years ago

In addition to cost, the Main thing preventing me from switching to induction is knobs. I just know up front that digital/touch controls will be a headache (for me).

bch• 4 years ago

I'm glad I can afford it but every time I see one of those "electric's not god-awful anymore, induction's amazing!" posts on Twitter or Reddit or whatever it's like... yeah, great solution for us folks with plenty of disposable income, I guess.

Most of what I see isn’t necessarily cost prohibitive, but looks like it’s built to fail. What products are people using where the experience has been pleasant?

mikeyouse• 4 years ago

Depending on how much cooking you do, you could trial keeping your stove for anything requiring the open flame and using an induction hotplate for the majority of your other cooking. They are available for ~$50 and you can get dual-burner versions for under $200 (e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-ICT-60-Double-Induction-Coo...)

newsclues• 4 years ago

Outdoor kitchen?

Spooky233• 4 years ago

Most of this new controversy is bullshit seeded by PR. Getting rid of residential gas is a movement of sorts now, and people are eager to sell their wares. Open a window or use the vent fan and 90% of your risks go away.

Or buy an induction cooktop, which costs more, works more poorly and has a 5 year expected lifespan.

ryan_lane• 4 years ago

I've found my induction stove to be way more consistent in cooking eggs (and well, most things, really) than when I had gas in the past. Also, not sure which induction you're looking at, but on my stove, when I remove the pan it turns off the power to that unit, and turns it back on when you put the pan back (within about a second or so, both ways), so when I do feel the need to remove the pan briefly, it's not any different than when I do it on gas.

chaxor2• 4 years ago

Health concerns are real (methane and potentially CO), but they are one thing - vastly more energy efficient.

So if you're in to energy efficiency gas appliances make some sense. There's something ridiculous about burning a ton of gas [to boil water and spin turbines], which generates and sends electricity (with enormous losses at every step) to a stove which heats a coil ... to boil water.

stjohnswarts6• 4 years ago

What's different about it? Should we stop boiling water and return to salmonella and botulism?

nomel5• 4 years ago

I've just replaced my hood vent to something larger, and am installing a duct fan above it, in the duct that exhausts outside. I think this can be a good mitigation, without the need for worry. Doing a "candle smoke" test, very little makes it out from under the hood, as is, and the fan I'm installing is about 5x the airflow of what's there now. Most vents have very poor fans built in, in my experience. Of course, this only works if you're in a climate where a large exchange of outside air won't cause a problem.

If you have a smart oven (or a little heat detecting sensor with an esp32), you can buy a smart switch to turn the fan on whenever the oven is on.

dangrossman• 4 years ago

The Twitter thread says "unfortunately range hoods don't reduce NO2 (see peer-reviewed research below)".

wavefunction• 4 years ago

Adverse health effects have been observed among children with a functional but unused oven or stove such as higher rates of diabetes and asthma and other life-long effects.

crooked-v• 4 years ago

Unfortunately, it's very common for apartments and condos to not even have a real vent outside, just a recirculating system with some carbon filters.

WalterBright2• 4 years ago

I watched the NOVA episode on methane bubbling out of the defrosting arctic. Made me wonder if instead of pumping gas out of the ground here, we should be collecting that gas instead and piping it south.

I.e. since it's bubbling out anyway, use it to replace our natural gas burning, for a total reduction.

Dumblydorr2• 4 years ago

It's very spread out, in far northern locations, where roads and infrastructure don't exist. These are microscopic bubbles released very slowly over all of Russia and northern Canada. It'd be an economic money pit to attempt to harvest gas that way. Better to put all that money towards making batteries to supplement renewables.

tasty_freeze• 4 years ago

If there were a small number of sites where the gas was emitted, akin to the way rivers tend to combine into one larger river, then the idea would be good. The problem is that the emissions are happening over hundreds of thousands of square miles. Putting a dome over all of it to capture the gas is not possible.

reincarnate0x14• 4 years ago

It's typically considered not worth it collect methane from oil-producing wells, even though it comes out in such volume that it needs to be appropriately vented and flared (burned) which is why you can see burning torch-like pipes out in the middle of nowhere all over oil producing areas. Given that is much more concentrated than thousands of kilometers of bogs and tundra, the odds of this being practical, much less profitable, are basically zero.

heartbreak2• 4 years ago

The thread author appears to have mistaken the acceptable NO2 level for 5.3ppb when it’s actually 53ppb. The averages on his chart never met or exceeded that value.

dahfizz• 4 years ago

Source? The closest I could find is [1], which says 10 μg/m3 annual mean and 25 μg/m3 24-hour mean. It is for outdoor levels, but I can't imagine why the same chemical would be safer to breathe depending on whether you are inside or not as you breathe it.

[1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ambient-(ou...

BugsJustFindMe2• 4 years ago

The EPA current standard is 53ppb, but actually the WHO in September set their recommended AQG target at 10 micrograms per cubic meter with 3 step-down interim targets of 40,30,20.

10 micrograms per cubic meter of NO2 is 5.3ppb. (conversion factor is 1.88ugm3/1ppb)

You can read it here: https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/345329

karmasimida• 4 years ago

Who sponsored the research, can we do a background check?

DonnyV2• 4 years ago

This is one of those BS articles to turn a systemic and government issue and break it down to a personal responsibility issue. So that the powers that be don't have to do anything. 70% of climate pollution comes from US Military and Cargo ships. How about we start there.

yoavm2• 4 years ago

Truly interested in the source for that 70% number.

DonnyV2• 4 years ago

https://earth.org/us-military-pollution/

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

Gigachad4• 4 years ago

Its targeting government. NYC recently banned natural gas connections to new buildings. This kind of research will help other governments justify the change.

asow927• 4 years ago

It's also about general safety in NYC. There have been a many deadly accidents over the years. Whole buildings have gone up in flames: https://ny.eater.com/2020/1/21/21070310/pommes-frites-east-v...

Ironically, this accident happened because someone was installing gas illegally.

Prohibition can cause as much harm as it alleviates.

asow927• 4 years ago

I much prefer cooking on my gas stove, thank you.

Dumblydorr2• 4 years ago

Why? I've cooked on all different sorts of heating sources and haven't noticed a big enough difference to justify health and climate issues. If cooking is the application of heat to food, a skillful chef should be able to use a variety of heat sources, no?

asow927• 4 years ago

I just like it more.

jb1991• 4 years ago

It’s about control.

Zak• 4 years ago

The most annoying thing for me about cooking on resistive electric is that changes in temperature are extremely slow. I can't add heat as quickly as gas, and when I want to take it away, the heating element retains heat for a long time.

I have not cooked with induction; it should be better on both points.

stjohnswarts6• 4 years ago

Complete freedom of what you're cooking on/with, complete predictability, it's fine. It's not the 90% problem with the environment. Most apartments I've had were resistive elements or inductive and I disliked it, plus like other I have some aluminum and copper cookware that I inherited and have special meaning to me

tims33• 4 years ago

It is kind of amazing how often the "next big thing" turns out to be less than promised. Natural Gas was supposed to be this great transition away from coal and heating oil and it seems like it has nearly as many issues.

anonporridge• 4 years ago

Shockingly, burning stuff in millions of micro scale instances is drastically less efficient and polluting than burning it all in one big, hyper efficient well managed place and converting it into electricity.

Who knew?

clusterfish2• 4 years ago

Natural gas as a source of energy is a lot less clean than advertised, almost as bad as coal, even without gas stoves, (due to fugitive methane emissions, yes, but not in your home)

Spooky233• 4 years ago

See the story on the front page earlier today about leaking gas pipelines.

smm113• 4 years ago

First, I freeking love cooking with our gas stove. It's got zero electronics, and is simply a half-dozen gas valves that output like a blast furnace. I've no doubt it's a danger to me and everyone else on earth, but what isn't?

And I don't like this push to offload all the industrial methane output blame to me, and others like me. My nearest landfill likely outputs more methane daily, than I will in a lifetime. Blame all of us, though.

wikibob• 4 years ago

Modern induction provides a superior cooking experience to gas.

The metal of the cookware is heated directly via the energy field.

Yes there are many risks in modern life, some are longer term and less directly linked. Gas stoves are directly linked to health outcomes and switching away can result in immediate personal benefit.

endisneigh6• 4 years ago

Switching requires money. I hate when people say these things as if renovating is free.

Most forms of cooking other then perhaps boiling in general release needless emissions.

smm113• 4 years ago

Sorry, but induction does not replace an open fire for much of the cooking that I do. I'm no luddite, we have an electric car, and ride bicycles most of the time instead.

This is all a big PR ploy to deflect blame from industry. Concrete, anyone?

stjohnswarts6• 4 years ago

no it doesn't. See it's just opinion, man. It's hard to deny they're better for the environment but for a lot of us we just enjoy gas and the experience of cooking with it.

bayindirh5• 4 years ago

Modern gas stoves, esp. in the EU has electronics for safety and relighting if it goes out. So they're not just a bunch of valves like the stoves of the yesteryear.

We use electric stoves for ~20 years and nothing has broken on them except a regular bulb back-light. Current stoves esp. BSH made are not solid state electronics. They are relay powered industrial automations so they don't break twice a week.

OTOH, most probably the landfill nearest to you is using methane trapping technologies to use that methane to generate electricity. Ours is doing it, and it's awesome.

Gigachad4• 4 years ago

The landfill is full of crap that you threw in it though so that would still be on you. It also probably serves more people than you have days in your lifespan.

smm113• 4 years ago

Every single gas stove on earth puts gas into the atmosphere, over 20 years, equal to 500,000 cars annually.

Let's blame gas stoves.

endisneigh6• 4 years ago

What an disingenuous article. Yes natural gas appliances help to cook the climate. Farting also releases methane and helps cook the climate.

Can we focus on the real issues. USA natural gas kitchen appliances aren’t the main contributor to climate change. I’d be surprised if it’s even in the top 1000 issues.

You might say you can work on multiple issues - sure, but people only have so much time to research on issues and so much attention to spare.

Furthermore who is going to fund all of this conversion to induction? Whose going to require the tens of millions of homes to high gauge and high voltage wiring?

/rant

bayindirh5• 4 years ago

Induction or electric stoves doesn't need high gauge, insane current wiring to work. In EU, You can power one from a 220V/16A fuse, and you don't even need to dedicate that circuit to it. Mine is connected to a bog standard wall outlet (It came with a plug).

endisneigh6• 4 years ago

You cannot replace a gas oven and 5 burner stove as shown in the paper with a 16A induction stove.

Furthermore the oven you use will likely be resistive and inefficient, likely being derived from dirtier energy like coal. Or ironically also from natural gas to begin with.

pandaman3• 4 years ago

I am not a physicist but from high school physics I've got an impression that the DC power is VxI, and AC power is less than that (averaging the instantaneous VxI value) so the 220Vx16A is going to give at most 3.5K watt, right?

I've checked the specs and my stove's burners are 3 x 18K and 3 x 15K BTU/h. Which is approximately 5K and 4K watt. Even one of the small burners is more powerful than the entire stove you mentioned.

I am sure an induction stove does not waste any energy and everything goes only in the heating the pan but I don't see how can this account for an order of magnitude in power difference.

ghostly_s• 4 years ago

I can't see the paywalled article, but I believe the main point of the underlying research was not climate change but the impact on indoor air quality and unrecognized hazard to human health.

endisneigh6• 4 years ago

I read the paper and they do not contextualize the effects in terms of actual illness or life expectancy.

It’s as useful as saying the emissions from frying food is bad for you, which is true, but simultaneously not really meaningful.

nieve• 4 years ago

Archive link to avoid the paywall: https://archive.is/GLFEF

jacknews• 4 years ago

Running pipes of flammable gas to people's homes does look a little out of place in 2022.

New research: natural gas appliances emit much more methane than realized

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