Ploopy: open hardware trackballs and mouse

by pabs3 • 5 years ago

329 135 5 years ago

ruined3• 5 years ago

oh, perfect. the nano trackball looks like just the thing to fit between my ergodox. i've never seen another trackball so small! anyone used this? how is it?

amatecha5• 5 years ago

Another ultra-small trackball would be the one used for the MNT Reform[0] (which also happens to be open hardware). However, I don't know if it's fully ready-to-use with any arbitrary computer, yet. I know it's intended to be possible to be used with any computer but you'd have to check into that yourself. If you're interested and willing to be patient about it just keep an eye on the creator's mastodon account[1] where he posts all the most up-to-the-minute updates about the project. Or, heck, send him a message to ask about it :)

[0] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform

[1] https://mastodon.social/@mntmn

ruined3• 5 years ago

very cute, but the ball on the mnt looks a little undersized for comfortable manipulation, and it's not shipping until december. and i'm impatient so i went ahead and ordered a ploopy :D

j-pb• 5 years ago

I have one and I love it. Feels super nice, very accurate.

The only thing I'd change is giving it a full body click, so that the entire case/ball functions as a button when pushed down.

ruined3• 5 years ago

yeah, im a little apprehensive of having a clickless pointing device, but i already have occasionally-used mouse buttons mapped on my ergo so it shouldn't be a huge hurdle

bloopernova2• 5 years ago

Thank you, this seems like a good option once I get my Keyboardio Model 100 in the new year.

notorandit• 5 years ago

Died!

butterisgood• 5 years ago

Site went… ploopy.

acherion• 5 years ago

Shop is quite slow, maybe the hackernews hug of death?

wwn_se• 5 years ago

looks like a overload

tyingq• 5 years ago

Their wordpress engine is starting to falter here and there. Nice products and approach though. Hopefully they get a cache in place while the sales funnel is open.

robin_reala• 5 years ago

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https%...

(!cache bang on DDG with the URL will get you there quickly)

Fordec• 5 years ago

I'm not sure how "open" I consider a pdf of the schematics (no sign of PCB layouts), compiled hex files and I'm unsure where the mechanical 3D files are. [0]

When I think of open hardware I imagine Kicad/Altium files of the electronics (not gerbers), access to the C, C++ or Rust firmware and the STEP files at least or other source modifiable files so they're 3D printable if I was so inclined to modify all three.

[0] https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse

amatecha5• 5 years ago

Hmmm, I notice there is full source for everything for their Classic Trackball[0], which is super awesome. Maybe they just haven't finalized the Mouse stuff yet? Not sure. I do share your confusion about that one.

[0] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball

onlydnaq2• 5 years ago

I don’t know where the files for the mouse are (or if they’ve been released), but the design files for the trackball can be found here [1].

[1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...

cookiengineer• 5 years ago

I was looking through the repos for the Classic Trackball, too, but found the design files and was kinda impressed that also the PCB files were open [1]. They contain the Altium Designer files in that case.

The only thing why I'm probably not going for it is that 1) shipment would be way too much to justify and 2) the STLs seem to be 3d printed instead of injection molded or similar, so the "no cheap shit" argument on their website is kinda different for me if I have to print all files myself anyways.

[1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...

walrus• 5 years ago

The trackballs are listed as "completely open-source" on their website, but the mouse is listed as "open-source firmware". This is consistent with what's available on their GitHub page—the Altium and STEP files for the trackballs are available on their GitHub page, and the firmware for all their products (including the mouse) has been upstreamed[1].

[1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/pl...

LeifCarrotson2• 5 years ago

The creator stated on his subreddit:

CAD files are not available for the mouse... [Will it ever be?] It's certainly possible, but my focus is not currently on the mouse, so there's no timeline. [0]
I haven't released the design files for the Mouse, no. I may revisit that decision at a later date, since I've slated some major design revisions to it, but that won't be any time soon. Sorry. [1]
I made the decision some time ago to keep the mechanical files for the Mouse closed-source. I could spend all day trying to convince you that my reasoning was good, but you'd still leave unsatisfied. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry the files aren't available, and that I hope you can find something that will satisfy your needs. [2]

The Open Source Hardware Association describes OSHW as "hardware whose design is made publicly available so that anyone can study, modify, distribute, make, and sell the design or hardware based on that design. The hardware’s source, the design from which it is made, is available in the preferred format for making modifications to it." Kicad/Altium would certainly be appropriate for the electronics.

Gerbers are to Kicad schematics and PCBs as the STEPs and STLs are to the mechanical design files in Freecad .FCStd or (more likely) Autodesk dwg/f3d/iam or Solidworks SLDPRT/SLDASM formats. For the other products like the trackballs, the author did not release the mechanical design files, only the output STEPs and STLs. This isn't quite as bad as, for example, getting only the compiled code out of a software project. Mechanical design tools are good at working with STEP files; each step of hardware->electronics->software gets increasingly more obfuscated. But I agree, it's hard to put "Open" as the first word on your website and then describe your products as:

Our products are accessible. Often, we release some or even all of the design files and source code for our products.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/k4olxc/cad_availabl...

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/l3r783/ploopy_mouse...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/mkzmv7/stl_for_ploo...

onlydnaq2• 5 years ago

I have one of the full size Ploopy trackballs, and it feels really good in the hand. It is 3D-printed, and it shows, but the texture of it feels pretty nice when using it.

I struggled a bit with accuracy at first, but now I’ve lowered the DPI to around 500 and it’s become much more usable for me since.

systemvoltage2• 5 years ago

I wish they'd invest in proper injection molding tooling and get these made professionally. You can do that very cheaply in Malaysia and Taiwan, and of course China. Total cost for tooling and integration/assembling jigs would be around $50-100k including engineering labor for mold design. It will take solid 2 years of work to get it absolutely perfect and to ramp up production. As much as these are philosophically cool, I am definitely not buying anything that's 3D printed. It's fine for tinkering, otherwise just garbage. Ya'll need a new name - ploopy is too close to poopy.

thrtythreeforty• 5 years ago

I think you and I have different definitions of "very cheaply." Small scale products like these are brutal on people who try to do small manufacturing runs (say, 1000) because that measly $50k becomes +$50 on each unit.

Keyboardio liked to talk about this when they were building their first models.

systemvoltage2• 5 years ago

They should do fundraising. There is a critical energy needed to go over the hump - stay on the left side and forever keep making low volume goods. Get funds, seriously invest and it can become a solid competitor to high end mice from Logitech - difficult but worthy of pursuit. I've worked on both sides of the asymptote, not trivializing but products like this are in uncanny valley. Folks at WASD keyboards took 3 years to scale their Code-keyboards - it is hard to do but their keyboards are rock solid now.

elcritch• 5 years ago

To be fair, you could probably get a basic injection mold for these kind of parts for $3-$6k [1]. Likely you'd still have parts that'd be 3D printed.

1: https://icomold.com/much-injection-molding-cost/

amatecha5• 5 years ago

Hmm, luckily, one big upside of the "open hardware" aspect is, you could take these .stl files[0] and get them manufactured yourself (if you want a really nicely-produced piece). Yeah, it will cost a lot, but at least you have that option (especially going forward if Ploopy company stops selling the hardware).

[0] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...

sleepybrett• 5 years ago

Getting proper molds built is a very expensive up front investment when you don't know how big your addressable market is. It also impedes innovation in the early design (which these clearly are).

I'm now curious if it makes sense to build replacement pcbs for off the shelf models. I certainly have a very old trackball that I used during the mac quadra era that is fucking fantastic except for the fact that it's ADB. If I could swap out the pcb and make it compatible with qmk and usb that would be fantastic. I do know that there is a small ADB to USB converter out there for keyboards that even let you do keystroke remapping, however I'm unsure of how it deals with mouse-things.

But back to your main point. I think 3d printing makes sense in this space at least for the forseeable future. In the event that they make a 'hit' input device, once the design is refined a modest injection molded run of the case seems like a grand idea.

yellowapple2• 5 years ago

Alternatively, a resin printer would get them most of the way there without anywhere close to that upfront cost.

john_yaya2• 5 years ago

Probably not helpful here, but: if you want something 3D printed that doesn’t feel or look like it, you can print it at very high resolution in ABS, then expose it to acetone vapor for about 30 minutes. The item will smooth out and the later lines disappear.

For other plastics, you can give them a coat of epoxy.

scbrg• 5 years ago

I've always considered Microsoft's Trackball Explorer the best pointing device I've come across (oh I wish Microsoft could stick to making hardware!). Apparently I'm not alone, since they go for hundreds of dollars on the second hand market.

It looks like Ploopy's Classic Trackball comes fairly close to the form factor. Very tempted :-)

Clewza3133• 5 years ago

Per the site, the fully assembled retail price for the Ploopy Classic would be $209.99-$227.49 CAD if it wasn't out of stock. Even the DIY kit runs $139.99-$157.49 CAD depending on options.

https://ploopy.co/shop/classic-trackball-full-kit/

h2odragon• 5 years ago

I'll pop up and mention that Elecom makes a worthy successor to the MS Trackball; and in small and large sizes, to boot. I kill keyboards and trackballs and my elecom's have been at least as sturdy as the MS Trackballs were. Easier to clean, too.

https://forum.trackballs.eu/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=58

john_yaya2• 5 years ago

Seconded on the Trackball Explorer, it was an absolute joy. The day I started using one, I immediately went out and purchased a backup. They’re both dead now.

mimsee• 5 years ago

https://archive.is/whB5d

tartoran• 5 years ago

Almost bought one but the server stopped responding. Will definitely bookmark this and try again later

crazygringo2• 5 years ago

Just curious what's behind the name... "ploopy"?

I mean, when a name manages to combine "plop" and "poopy" in a way that makes it really hard to think of anything but the toilet... it just makes me wonder why they chose that association?

Clewza3133• 5 years ago

My first guess would have been that this is from a European company, which often have product names that don't sound quite right to a native English speaker [1], but cursory Googling [2] reveals that Ploopy Corporation appears to be run by a Colin Lam from Mississauga, Ontario, next to Toronto and not even in Quebec. So your guess is as good as mine.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plopp

[2] https://www.bizapedia.com/canada/ploopy-corporation.html

katmannthree• 5 years ago

I believe he's commented on reddit that he likes how it's a memorable, funny name.

amatecha5• 5 years ago

haha, combined with the "no cheap shit" feature tagline, there's a funny trend here! ;)

egypturnash2• 5 years ago

To me it does a great job of saying "this is my fun side project that I do not want to become my day job". :)

i_am_proteus2• 5 years ago

Does anyone know how these compare with the L-Trac? $150, USA made, they don't seem to advertise, but it's handily the best pointing device I've ever used. Seems to get by with an annual cleaning, too, unlike other trackballs I've used.

riversflow• 5 years ago

+1 for the CST L trac. There was a shortage for a little bit, because the people who were running Clearly Superior Technology retired and had to find new people to manufacture/sell it. Which they did, the old clearlysuperiortech domain now sends you to the Xkeys domain,[1] its a pretty beloved device by people who use them, so they were able to find somebody to pick up the torch really fast and if I remember correctly shipped all the tooling to them. Alas, I can't find an archive of the page that was up announcing the whole thing in detail. Really great product. Anyway I can't vouch 100% for the new Trackballs, but I wouldn't think twice about buying another one if e broke.

Two big advantages with the L-Trac, first it has very different ergonomics from a mouse, unlike most other trackballs on the market. (I still use mice for gaming, but too much mousing will give me an RSI in my wrist.) The CST trackballs really promote a fully open hand posture, and for me at least the pinching with my thumb is what gives me problems with mice. The other is the roller bearing that make the ball much smoother to operate than anything I've compared it against.

[1]https://ol.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/egcf41/clearly_s...

i_am_proteus2• 5 years ago

Thanks for all of that!

I never knew the history, just loved the product.

__mharrison__2• 5 years ago

I've never cleaned mine after 8? years... maybe I should. It seems to work fine, just roll it around and it cleans.

I guess if I open it up I can mod it with a pool ball though

baybal2• 5 years ago

I really want to get a trackball-mouse for CAD work, but they seem to have completely went extinct in the last decade.

dang• 5 years ago

One past thread:

Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21263264 - Oct 2019 (84 comments)

ChrisArchitect3• 5 years ago

Great Unisys' ghost, that red ball

ChrisArchitect3• 5 years ago

Really not new tho. Is there anything new here from 2 or more years ago?

chrisdinn• 5 years ago

There are two new trackball models released this year, the nano and mini.

ChrisArchitect3• 5 years ago

ah good, thank you

peterburkimsher2• 5 years ago

Is it possible to customise the colours for manufacturing? I'd like to make a brown & green trackball that looks like an avocado.

askvictor2• 5 years ago

3D print your own?

peterburkimsher2• 5 years ago

For the enclosure, yes! But a 3D printed ball seems like it would be difficult to smooth out.

tempodox• 5 years ago

In theory a trackball is nice (I've used one for years). Your wrist can rest while your fingers do the moving, and it keeps rotational momentum after you lift your fingers, making long movements easier. However, your fingers will always be a little sweaty and the ball will deposit that on the wheels inside the device that transmit the movements. Keeping those clean over time can be quite a chore, but if you don't clean them the transmission will become unreliable.

If a trackball could be magnetically suspended so it floats without touching anything and still transmit its movements, that would be perfect. You'd only have to clean the ball itself once in a while, and that would be easy enough.

easygenes2• 5 years ago

Probably a ball with a fine black and white grid pattern and a fast imaging sensor could be used to achieve this. So long as it's sending updates at around 100hz, should be pretty performant.

Edit: Could also probably be something that's alternating bright and dark in IR so the ball doesn't look weird.

unnouinceput• 5 years ago

IR and UV, much easier to decode as they are at opposite spectrum of visible light.

henriks• 5 years ago

The one I have from Logitech uses an optical sensor for the movement itself. Gunk still builds up in the small balls that ensure the trackball itself rolls smoothly, so those have to be cleaned regularly anyway.

morsch• 5 years ago

Trackballs don't use the wheels to transmit the movements these days (at least modern Logitech trackballs don't seem to). They're using optical sensors, just like mice. Of course, there is still some contact surface like a wheel or a bearing to clean.

stavros2• 5 years ago

Can confirm, tracking is always the same quality, but the increased friction leads to the ball losing momentum. Right after a cleaning (which takes five seconds), the ball sounds freely for a long time after a hard spin, but a few days later it stops pretty quickly.

andix• 5 years ago

My Logitech MX ergo doesn’t need a lot of cleaning. Once in a while maybe. But it is designed in a way that the dirt comes out at the bottom by itself. There are also no wheels, it uses optical detection of movement, like an optical mouse.

Once in a while a hair or some dust gets stuck in front oft the sensor. Then you need to clean it. But this happens maybe twice a year for me.

benhurmarcel3• 5 years ago

I need to clean mine every few weeks, but it’s really not a problem. When I notice more friction than usual, I just pop the ball out with a pen and clean the contacts and ball with whatever cloth.

schwartzworld• 5 years ago

the ball will deposit that on the wheels inside the device that transmit the movements

This was my experience in the 90s, but my kensington expert uses lasers for tracking position and this is a non-issue.

__mharrison__2• 5 years ago

Anecdata: I have a 8 year-old CST trackball that has never been cleaned. (That sounds really gross.) It works fine.

However, I think I should clean my ErgoDox and mouse soon... thanks for the inspiration.

ThePhysicist• 5 years ago

I have been getting back to using Trackballs again after a 20 year hiatus. Currently I use the MX Ergo, MX 575 and its predecessor the MX 570 from Logitech. The cheapest model (MX 570) is also the best IMHO, as it seems that Logitech changed the sensor and made the ball harder to move in the newer models, which for me feels way more sluggish. But maybe it's just that I used the MX570 for longer already and it wore out a bit more.

Anyway, having had trouble with pain in my wrist and mouse-work induced fatigue in my fingers I have to say that switching to trackballs has definitely improved this a lot. I also tried some vertical mice but overall I like the ergonomics of a trackball much more. A big benefit is that you can even use it when sitting on the sofa or the bed with the laptop (I know, bad habit), which is just impossible with a normal mouse. Also, I can't count the times I swept my vertical mouse off the table when reaching for it (as the height of the mouse still seems unexpectedly high to my brain), which just never happens with trackballs, obviously. I even enjoy playing shooters and games with a trackball, for my amateurish skill level the precision is good enough.

ghaff• 5 years ago

I used trackballs for a longtime until my favorite and discontinued Logitech one eventually gave out.

I didn't like any of the current ones on the market and, by that time, there were trackpads on the market, at least the ones for Macs, that I actively liked rather than barely, if that, tolerated.

yesimahuman• 5 years ago

Same here. After trying every alternative ergo mouse on the market I landed on a trackball and I love it. It has no wrist movement so makes all those ergo mice decisions irrelevant and it quickly becomes second nature and feels faster than using a traditional mouse. Agreed fps games are weird but on the few games I can’t use a controller it actually works pretty well and more than enough for my needs.

Also yes the sofa usage is awesome. Didn’t even think about this being an advantage, but I do it all the time

dsr_• 5 years ago

I have discovered that switching every few weeks between trackball, mouse and touchpad reduces fatigue for me. Because they feel so different, I don't lose any muscle memory.

majormajor• 5 years ago

I've found the "vertical" Kensington to be a nice upgrade for my wrist over the Logitech 570: https://www.kensington.com/p/products/electronic-control-sol...

porker• 5 years ago

Any Kensington Slimblade users here? I adopted it a couple of months ago due to wrist pain. My accuracy is fairly good however I cannot reliably double-click, let alone triple-click, something I used a lot in my IDE!

Is there a technique, or is this something Trackballs (or this particular trackball) aren't good at?

serf• 5 years ago

Is there a technique, or is this something Trackballs (or this particular trackball) aren't good at?

no problem like that here -- trackball user for life.

I'm left handed, my pinky and ring finger sit on the LMB and my thumb sits on RMB/mouse-wheel, on a kensington. No special technique as far as I am aware.

mkl• 5 years ago

I'd guess it's that particular model, as none of the trackballs or mice I've tried have been like that. Maybe try a Kensington Expert Mouse? Same form factor as SlimBlade, but the buttons look more like proper buttons. I have several of them, and have never had any clicking problems (it's quite a bit easier than a mouse, in fact, because the pointer stays still). I haven't tried a SlimBlade, and don't plan to (I like a physical scroll ring), but I can recommend the Expert Mouse (though I wish they'd called it an Expert Trackball or something!). I recommend the wired version over the wireless one.

lycopodiopsida• 5 years ago

You can just map a combination of two buttons for a triple-click. Also, the trick is to click somewhere near the trackball, the buttons have lower resistance there.

This said, I've never found my Slimblade comfortable and have accepted that my Magic trackpad is the most ergonomic device for me. Every time I use a trackball I get hand fatigue due to palm shape and hard buttons. Precision movements are also hard on big and hi-res monitors. I am always re-adjusting the cursor position.

egypturnash2• 5 years ago

You've got four customizable buttons on it; consider setting two to double- and triple-click.

nonesuchluck2• 5 years ago

I use a SlimBlade at work, and have not had that problem. If you find it difficult to depress that large, flat button, try something with a different click mechanism. I use an Elecom Huge at home, another mouse with an oversized trackball. I use it for work and gaming, and find it very snappy to operate. The left-click is clicked inwards with your thumb, instead of downwards like the Kensington balls. Uses a different muscle. You might miss the ball-scrolling, but only the SlimBlade has that mechanism.

trojan13• 5 years ago

During my time in university I was researching about computer mice and how the size affects the performance. With how easy it is to design and print your own computer mouse it would be awesome to have an open standardized testing kit to see how the user performance changes with the mouse.

dgrabla• 5 years ago

I have one of the original right hand Ploopy trackballs.

- It comes in a kit and as you need to assemble it, you feel emotionally attached to it

- The designer (Colin) probably has big hands. I have a small hand and it doesn't fit right.

- The 3d printed texture is great.

- The ball doesn't 'flow'. It doesn't keep momentum. You apply a strong movement and it spins dead within the second.

- I absolutely love it is open source, but there is not much of a community around it, probably because the barriers of entry are quite high. I never found the time to hack it myself.

- It tracks the movement extremely well. Accuracy, precision are awesome. Better than any other trackball I have (and I have MANY). On par with the logitech mx master.

- The position of the thumb wheel is not good for my hand. After months of use it started giving me RSI. And now everytime I use it, I notice within the hour that something is not right.

My perfect trackball would be the ploopy:

- With a smaller body for small hands

- With momentum in the scroll wheel ALA logitech mice

- With a different position for the scroll wheel

geniium2• 5 years ago

- With a smaller body for small hands

That's actually a nice idea. It would be great to have three sizes, like S, M and L.

thefunnyman• 5 years ago

Even better, some kind of configuration that accepts a range of values and then generates a model. Dactyl keyboards work this way

https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard

1MachineElf3• 5 years ago

The ball doesn't 'flow'. It doesn't keep momentum. You apply a strong movement and it spins dead within the second.

For this issue, some people have modified their Ploopy trackballs with great success using Ball Transfer Units. Here's a long blog post about it: https://www.gbryant.co.uk/posts/2021-02-15_ploopy-trackball/...

An example video of BTUs functioning in a Kingston trackball: https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/ddlovq/ladies_a...

Abishek_Muthian3• 5 years ago

Thanks for the summary.

May I ask why do you prefer trackballs over say a trackpad? I too like trackballs due to tangible feeling of it but I use a wacom tablet as trackpad for accessibility reasons.

The open nature of Ploopy might be well suited for those with accessibility needs like me but as you say the barrier for entry is high(but so are any other accessibility hardware; unfortunately).

xkcd-sucks• 5 years ago

Personally, I prefer trackballs (specifically the "thumb" type) because they minimize wrist movement and finger contortions. Using a trackpad or mouse for an extended period of time, my wrist gets quite painful, and clicking on a trackpad likewise makes my finger joints painful. This is probably not fundamental, but trackballs just seem to make ergonomics easier.

Secondarily, with a trackball it's easier to cover a large area "ballistically" i.e. with a mouse or trackpad you might have to do multiple side-to-side traversals in order to go across your screens (or set a very high DPI which also gets tiring after a while)

dbeley• 5 years ago

Another happy user of a left-handed classic trackball here!

It feels perfectly right in my hand, the 3d printed texture is fantastic and the qmk firmware allows a level of customization you will never see on more consumer-oriented products.

Some drawbacks I can think of are the mouse wheel placement and feeling, the USB type B connector and the included ball that is not perfectly round (there is some sort of tiny nub on top of it that can interfere with the bearings).

Wronnay• 5 years ago

I wished they had a vertical mouse. Currently use one and prefer it over a normal mouse...

bloopernova2• 5 years ago

Oh good lord, the mouse has the buttons just where I want them!!!

and it's QMK firmware, which means I can have it send keystrokes not just mouse buttons.

Oh Frabjous day!

1MachineElf3• 5 years ago

I'm the 0.01% of people who aren't happy that it's using QMK. Previously it had it's own mouse firmware, and I wish it was still actively maintained for this and the Ploopy Nano.

Due to the new QMK firmware, the Ploopy cannot be used simultaneously with some very expensive KVMs and KMs. That's because they are all built on the assumption that they are connected to one keyboard and one mouse.

I have tons of great QMK keyboards and I can't use them with the Ploopy on these switches because of this.

OJFord• 5 years ago

Interesting, I would've assumed they (the keyboard/mouse part) were just USB switches. What's the (supposed; not in your case) benefit to them doing any HID-aware stuff? No Windows 'device connected' bongs when you switch (because it's always identifying as the KVM, just not sending anything)? Anything else?

Cyberdog3• 5 years ago

I understand your particular pain, but I want to share the flip side of it. QMK devices are great for me as a Mac user because it's very rare that any of the custom firmware configuration tools for input devices get ported to macOS. But QMK has a port and if a device wants to present itself as just a bog-standard USB device with all the "translation" happening on the device rather than requiring custom drivers and additional software on the OS side, everything just works. I presume users of other non-Windows OSes have similar takes, and I really hope the QMK trend gets picked up by Logitech, Kensington, and MS's hardware team eventually so that more hardware on the mass-market/affordable end of the spectrum can also do these things.

zorgmonkey• 5 years ago

I don't have a QMK device to with, but from a quick look at the source code it looks like you could build QMK without MOUSE_ENABLE defined and flash that firmware to your keyboard to workaround the problem with your KVM. I would also consider opening an issue I would not be at all suprised if the devs have a better idea for how to deal with your quirky KVM

boomboomsubban2• 5 years ago

Is there a reason these couldn't offer a PS/2 option?

I don't understand a ton about hardware, so there may be an obvious answer to this question. I just remember looking for a decent PS/2 mouse with more than 2-3 buttons after reading too much about USB vulnerabilities and found the market completely lacking.

I've assumed there's a technological limitation, but seem to remember owning a such a mouse in the mid 2000's.

detaro• 5 years ago

Not really a technological limitation (PS/2 interface is a bit weird, but not too bad, and actually not sure if a mouse even needs the weirder parts), just likely almost no demand inside the already tiny niche for this product, so I'm not surprised they didn't bother.

1MachineElf3• 5 years ago

Such a PS/2 mouse would be very exciting to me.

I love everything about the Ploopy except for the firmware - QMK makes things complicated for my expensive KVMs/KMs. A dedicated mouse protocol would be ideal. QMK doesn't provide that, but PS/2 could.

WRT PS/2, demand is too low and I don't realistically have the knowledge, time, and resources to make one.

crazygringo2• 5 years ago

Can't you just get a USB to PS/2 adapter? Seems like the obvious solution, and they run about $6.

And no USB vulnerabilities are going to make it through the adapter, correct?

boomboomsubban2• 5 years ago

When I did my research I was searching for mouse and keyboard, and those adapters could hold keyloggers themselves making it only an improvement not a fix. There may have been more I'm not remembering, this was several years ago and my realization that it was a silly concern for my home PC led me to forget most of what I read.

pointhi• 5 years ago

Years ago I also started designing an OSH mouse[1] as there was nothing on the market (in comparison to OSH keyboards). The main problem I encountered was mechanical design, as with 3d-printing it is hard to get a good mouse-wheel with vertical scrolling. The same goes with the other mouse buttons, where you also want good tactile feedback.

[1] https://hackaday.io/project/7929-ardumouse

tim--• 5 years ago

What can I do to support this project?

protomyth• 5 years ago

It would be amazing to have an open sourced replacement for the Logitech TrackMan Wheel wired trackball. The price they command shows the interest in trackball controlled with your thumb. It had a better feel than the current model. I kept two running for years but they finally gave up the ghost.

aviatordongle• 5 years ago

I want one but don't know why.

What's the benefit of have open firmware for this?

foxfluff• 5 years ago

You can customize it.

silentclickclub• 5 years ago

Are there any options for silent clicks? A few mice have this option these days but impossible to find for trackballs.

smallerfish• 5 years ago

I use Logitech Trackman trackballs. Every 2 or 3 years I have to replace them, because a) the varnish on the ball wears out and it becomes stiffer to move and b) (maybe) the bearings on the inside stiffen up. They're only $25 though, and the ergonomics are excellent, so I'd need a $150 trackball to last 12 years to make it worthwhile. Of course economies of scale and all that.

NoGravitas2• 5 years ago

I've been using the thumb operated Logitech trackball, whatever the current release of it is when I buy one, since 2002 or so. I think I've gone through three or four? My current one is the wireless one from 2014 or so, and I don't like it quite as much as the old ones, but it's better than having a mouse.

reaperducer• 5 years ago

I'd need a $150 trackball to last 12 years to make it worthwhile

Only if you choose to exclude social factors from your shopping decisions.

I get it, lots of people do. That's why we have WalMart and Amazon.com and Target filled with cheap Chinese junk while the small business down the street can't get shelf space.

But if you're someone who values what the company is doing, that 12 years may be closer to five or six years. And if the quality is better than Logitech, it may last that whole time, instead of requiring replacement every 2 years.

(I don't use trackballs or mouses, so I have no skin in this game.)

literallyaduck• 5 years ago

I prefer a symmetrical marble mouse.

Matrixik• 5 years ago

I'm using one from few years and really like the shape but it starting have double clicks or not registering clicks at all and I would really prefer to have proper scroll wheel. And looks like I will buy GameBall[1] that is completely new (so don't know long term reliability) because there are no other good replacements for Marble. They will be selling limited edition from today and standard edition should be available from September.

[1] https://www.gamingtrackball.com/

gwbas1c2• 5 years ago

One thing this really points out is how products that's ultra-hackable and ultra-customizable are often more expensive than typical mass-produced, ultra-cost-shaved alternatives.

IE, the Ploopy mouse costs $130, but a generic wired mouse costs $13.

I'm tempted to buy a Ploopy mouse because it has dedicated copy & paste buttons... (I don't think I'd ever hack it.) But then again, it has a cord! I personally was a holdout and kept using a wired mouse long after everyone cut their cord, but I don't want to go back to a wire. (And I don't want to hack the mouse to be cordless.)

weego• 5 years ago

It's a 3d printed shell and some fairly stock bits. How anyone thinks that justifies nearly $200 assembled is beyond me. Also almost all claims that a specific keyboard / mouse design from someone 3d printing their own stuff is ergonomic are dubious at best and more than likely just a sales tagline.

LeifCarrotson2• 5 years ago

And this sentiment is why so many hardware startups fail. At small scales, you need sale prices 2x, 4x or more above your BOM costs to have any hope of profitability.

Cyberdog3• 5 years ago

Opposite here. After trying a few, I have no interest in buying cordless mice and will actively go out of my way to make sure any mouse I buy is corded. Even if things have gotten better in the last few years since I've tried them with regards to lag and such, there's still the annoying battery situation.

Sometimes there's just no replacing a direct connection.

All that said, I agree on the price on these. I'd love to have an open-firmware mouse, but $130 is too steep for a productivity mouse and there's not enough buttons for a gaming mouse (I like using the MMO-style ones which basically have a 10-key pad under your thumb).

gwbas1c2• 5 years ago

there's still the annoying battery situation

That was what kept me away from cordless mice for decades. Now I seem to get about a year on a set of batteries.

Do you use your mouse for gaming? Image manipulation? I don't have accuracy issues, but sometimes I notice a very slight lag if I haven't touched the mouse in a few minutes. Personally I'm willing to put up with that compared to the cord getting in the way.

zabatuvajdka• 5 years ago

I don’t get the naming of said device. Brand identity is important and a Ploopy just doesn’t sound very serious. I mean, ploopy rhymes with poopy. The little mouse plooped a ploppity plop.

marcus_holmes• 5 years ago

Instantly reminds me of Wee Jock from Blackadder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5W5PtmNPKg

yellowapple2• 5 years ago

If there was a thumbball option I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

LibertyBeta• 5 years ago

I was going to buy the Mini Trackball, but.... the bearing structure just isn't it for me. Between using single direction bearings with PLA pins to the possible grinding its just a little to much work ATM. Oh, and direct screwing into PLA always worries me.

The big one however has these mods in the community so that's awesome.

silon42• 5 years ago

I'd want a mouse/trackball with proper Cherry Blue (or brown, maybe) buttons/keys. Is such a thing available?

rgoulter• 5 years ago

The micro switches on mice can be customized. https://mouseclub.co/pages/mouse-switch-guide

knaik94• 5 years ago

I looked into index finger trackball mice and ended up getting the Elecom deft pro. It's 70usd, can do wired, wireless with a dongle and also bluetooth and you can switch between them with a hardware switch. It has proper buttons and the left and right click uses omron switches. It has proper driver support and pretty decent hardware. I use X-mouse button control along with the original driver which is a native app that hasn't asked to connect to the internet. There's full support to remap the buttons using Xorg config in linux with a relatively new kernel and most buttons remap using an older kernel.

Most people, including me have switched out the factory ruby bearings for ZrO2 bearings. It's a simple disassembly and reassembly, a bit more advanced than install ram. It's not a huge difference but is definitely noticeable. I am planning on replacing the microswitches at some point as well, it's relatively straightforward to disassemble and all you'd need is a soldering iron.

For me the experience has been really smooth and even though it's not open source, it's well supported and easy to mod. I looked at the ploopy but honestly felt the Elecom Deft Pro was a better value for my money. I also appreciate more buttons and an actual plastic shell and not a 3d printed product. I personally like Xbindkeys for when I use it on Arch. I found X-mouse button control let me map a button to switch the trackball into a giant scroll wheel which is really useful. You can remap buttons to copy, paste, and other gestures.

Amazon US link (non-affiliate): https://www.amazon.com/Trackball-M-DPT1MRXBK-Bluetooth-High-...

Disassembly pics: https://imgur.com/a/XzUOey1

Ploopy: open hardware trackballs and mouse

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