How and why I stopped buying new laptops

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stopped-buying-new-laptops.html

by pencil_ • 6 years ago

291 279 6 years ago

solar.lowtechmagazine.com

ryan-duve• 6 years ago

As someone coming from the other direction of this "hack", I agree with the author's point to match needs to hardware.

Since being introduced to Linux in high school in the early 2000s, I have had a penchant for bringing old computers back from the dead. As a result, every laptop I have ever owned has been one that a friend or partner throws away when Windows gets slow. Every 3-5 year old laptop I have found can be brought back to life with a new Ubuntu/Mint install and Fluxbox. Case in point: I'm typing this on a 2011 Pavillion, my main workstation.

Finally, in the last few months, I realized my up-to-decade-old computers have been holding me back. Professionally, I do AI work on cloud resources and my personal projects have naturally ventured towards the same technologies. Docker, Scikit, NLP. My symmetric gigabit internet is bottlenecked by the ethernet card on my main workstation which maxes at 1% of that.

So I finally ordered a new laptop: 64 GB RAM, latest processor, dedicated graphics card to try my hand at CUDA locally, which is being assembled now. I'm not sure if this is the "start of buying new laptops" for me, or if this one is going to last 10+ years, but I think it underlines the author's point of identifying and aligning hardware with laptop requirements, especially as those things change.

salawat• 6 years ago

I"ll second that experience. I've actually started to come to love using the lowest spec computer capable of reasonably doing the job I need it too.

Right now I'm on a quest to actually break out of the computing models I"m used to (generally glorified ETL) and to break into other models of computation and process modelling. I've got a hunch there is a direct parallel of applicability between keeping disparate people effectively working together, and writing programs which can smoothly do the same. The trick is breaking out of old modes of thinking, which I think a radical discontinuity in hardware capability for me will help accomplish. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

Const-me5• 6 years ago

Have you considered a desktop? They are much faster than laptops, who are constrained by thermal issues. It’s hard to dissipate 500W+ of heat from a laptop-sized thing, they simply don’t have enough available surface for air intakes and exhausts.

If you want a smaller one to be occasionally portable, there’s Mini-ITX. I currently use a PC I built in this case: https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/node/node-202/...

yread• 6 years ago

Second the Node, very portable, quiet. It is a bit difficult to assemble though. And you need to double check your parts will fit

aidenn03• 6 years ago

500W? That's an absurd amount of heat. I suppose they don't make 75W GPUs anymore (I'll replace my 1050Ti when they do), but still...

tartoran• 6 years ago

Totally applaud the effort of bringing old laptops to life and I would do it too but what am I to so with so many laptops? I do let mine rest in peace if they’re too behind and as a rule I try to not accumulate too much hardware as where i live space is expensive. If i had plenty of space I’d probably build more dedicated machines, perhaps airgapped to avoid distractions.

hotcrossbunny• 6 years ago

And then the lockdown happened, my kids are suddenly being home schooled in our tiny London flat. Thankfully my fleet of fun to refurb ancient ThinkPads find their reason for being, getting pressed into heavy everyday use. Overnight I've become a sys admin and in the months since migrated everybody to Arch Linux for ease of maintenance. Pretty happy with the setup. Icing on the cake my 9 year old brags to his friends about his kick ass Linux setup and the advantages of a tiling window manager. For the record the kids are running an X220, a T420 whilst I'm developing on a T440p. But sometimes I borrow one of the kids machines just because the keyboards are sooooo good to type on.

kfrncs• 6 years ago

Doing ML on a laptop sounds like hell

dionidium2• 6 years ago

I’m a software engineer doing mostly iOS work these days. I recently purchased a 2015 MacBook Pro for $750 on eBay. It’s fine. I’m in Xcode, the browser, or a terminal most of the day. I’m sure a newer computer would seem faster, but I couldn’t imagine spending 3x for a newer version of this thing that’s working just fine for my needs.

Some people reading this probably have processor-intensive tasks they routinely perform. But most of us don’t, even developers.

There’s a limit to this, but it’s further back than you might think. I also have a 2012 quad-core Mac Mini that’s still in regular use. It’s also fine!

hh3k0• 6 years ago

There’s a limit to this, but it’s further back than you might think. I also have a 2012 quad-core Mac Mini that’s still in regular use. It’s also fine!

No recent version on Xcode would work on this one, though.

dionidium2• 6 years ago

That’s not entirely correct. Mine’s running Catalina and was running the latest version of Xcode as of late summer, which is the last time I powered it on. Big Sur just dropped support for this model.

See: https://eshop.macsales.com/guides/Mac_OS_X_Compatibility

But you’re right that this means this particular model’s days are numbered. Shame! The quad-core Mini from this era still works quite well!

ogre_codes5• 6 years ago

It’s fine.
Some people reading this probably have processor-intensive tasks they routinely perform. But most of us don’t, even developers.

I stick to newer systems. For me, sluggish IDEs and slow builds are disruptive to my workflow. I can usually either resell or gift my older still useful systems.

cehrlich• 6 years ago

I bought the same model recently. Got it for a real bargain because the battery was getting old and one of the two speakers had broken. Those two things took a combined €110 and 2 hours of work to repair. I initially bought this just to hold me over until the ARM 16” comes out in a few months, but now I think I might hold onto it longer. It does everything I need, is very repairable, has good IO, and doesn’t suffer from some of the issues that newer models have.

Other than a few obvious improvements like moving from Thunderbolt 2 to 3 and shrinking the bezels a bit, the 2015 15” is pretty close to the perfect laptop.

philistine• 6 years ago

It’s unfortunate that the author has disavowed Apple for its charger practices from the 20th century. While still far from perfect, Apple has progressed on its chargers, and with USB-C now, a durable charger is no longer a necessity (I charge my laptop by plugging it in my display).

rethab• 6 years ago

The way I understand the author is that he would also be someone who would not be willing to buy another (pricey) adapter, because apple decided to drop support for port x.

ogre_codes5• 6 years ago

This is a weird perspective when all newer Apple laptops use a standardized port which is reasonably well supported by third parties and will be for another 10-20 years.

Right now I'd say the third party power options are better than OEM, even for Apple.

mlacks• 6 years ago

If you do graphical or audiovisual work, it’s more complicated, because in that case, you’re probably an Apple user and unwilling to listen.

Well that’s too bad. Sounds like the author just didn’t have the experience or energy to give advice to windows/ Linux users like myself that do audio/ graphical work. I was really interested in seeing what he had to offer.

I personally use an NEC Lavie Hybrid Zero to make my YouTube and Instagram content for my real estate practice. I’ve resigned to stating away from 4K as the render times on an i5 with integrated graphics are just too long for the marginal quality bump from 1089p. Most of my audience seems to be watching on their smartphone anyway, so 4K doesn’t matter to me.

This opens up lots of older laptops for the apps that I use (Davinci Resolve, GIMP, any office suite), but I want to be future proof enough to be able to do 4K when it becomes the norm. For me this means a thunderbolt port so I can use an external GPU.

MeinBlutIstBlau3• 6 years ago

I only use OSS for my entire workflow. KDENLive is the best video editor imo but OSS video editors are still pretty bad. Shortcut is stable but it's basically iMovie circa 2011.

Audacity is great. No qualms there. Krita is the king of photoshop clones. Makes gimp look like garbage.

im_down_w_otp• 6 years ago

I struggle with Krita sometimes, but I think that's because I keep trying to use it like a Photoshop clone. Recently I've started treating it like a Painter clone in terms of my usage patterns and mindset when creating/editing things, and that seems to have resolved most of my issues & annoyances. Well, other than still not really having much in the way of a useful Photoshop clone, but I just run it in a VM these days, and that seems to work well enough.

Krita is an incredible piece of software.

tempodox• 6 years ago

Shortcut

It's named “shotcut”, without the “r”.

Igelau• 6 years ago

Ah, thanks. That spares me from attempting to read past that awful "power level as backdrop" trick. Maybe it looks okay on desktop, but on low-tier mobile it's unbearable.

fy202• 6 years ago

The same article is available on a fossil fuel powered server too, no annoying backdrops:

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stoppe...

rsync4• 6 years ago

The 11" Macbook Air solved the laptop form factor.

Thin, light, very portable, USB ports on each side, headphone jack and an external monitor port (in this case, thunderbolt).

Could there be some refinements to my 2015 MBA ? Certainly - the two type-A USB ports could remain type A but be upgraded to USB3 ... you could add a USB-C port on each side in place of the magsafe and lightning ports and gain the ability to charge on either side.

But that's it. Great job, apple - you solved this form factor.

However, for reasons other than functionality or user-experience, Apple continues to fiddle and fuddle and muck around with laptops - making them weird and unwieldy in the best case, and totally unusable in the worst cases. In the case of USB ports exclusively on one side of the laptop, the only response can be merciless ridicule.

We need to actually coin a word to describe "company solved their use-case wonderfully and can't resist fiddling around with it for reasons that don't align with their user-base*.

"Special Edition-ed"[1] comes to mind ...

[1] https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Trilogy_Speci...

fheld• 6 years ago

(in this case, lightning)

I suppose you mean Thunderbolt

rsync4• 6 years ago

Fixed. Thanks.

sneak2• 6 years ago

It doesn't help the situation that a Thunderbolt port's icon is a bolt of lightning.

karaterobot• 6 years ago

We need to actually coin a word to describe "company solved their use-case wonderfully and can't resist fiddling around with it for reasons that don't align with their user-base*.

Can't help coin a new word, but Ralph Caplan described this phenomenon really well. I'm a (software) designer, and I think about this all the time:

When cuffs disappeared from men’s trousers, fashion designers gave interviews explaining that the cuff was archaic and ill-suited to contemporary living. It collected dust, contributed nothing. When the trouser cuff returned, did it collect less dust and begin at last to make a contribution? Probably no fashion designer would argue the point; but the question never came up. Designers got rid of the cuff because there aren’t many options for making trousers different. They restored it for the same reason.

farss• 6 years ago

Trouser cuffs do have a function. The extra weight helps the cloth drape better.

HPsquared• 6 years ago

In fashion, "newness" is a function.

agumonkey• 6 years ago

It's indeed the differential nature of markets. People have a finite memory capacity.. once they forgot that trousers used to have cuffs.. you can reintroduce it as novelty.

-- Marcus Aurelius

Kaibeezy• 6 years ago

Another “function” of a trouser cuff is visual. It demarcates the end of the leg, creates a transitional element between the leg and the shoe. It is closely analogous to the capital on a classical column, eyeliner, the frame around a picture, the line at the bottom of this page, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

chiefalchemist2• 6 years ago

That word is: lack of market research.

I recently finished up shopping for a Windows laptop. It took awhile, as I balanced price with features. You'd be shock how many otherwise decently config'ed offerings lacked a key and basic feature (e.g., backlit KB), or was deficient in some key way (e.g., mid-priced models with only 8 GB RAM soldered, no ability to upgrade).

I agree. Some might not need backlit or more than 8 GB but if they do that machine - to them - becomes useless. Lack of sufficient RAM will cuts years off the usefulness of a laptop.

I'm not sure how such small thinking helps the brand, loyality, etc. Do these companies not understand?

jjeaff• 6 years ago

I don't think it's that so much as the need to convince consumers to upgrade as often as possible even when what they have already works perfectly.

I think they actually do a lot of market research. They know that people like you and I might buy a good product that meets our needs and keep it for 5 years or more. But the bulk of their profits are coming from people who have to buy the newest whizbang model - and it has to look different - or else how will everyone know that you have the newest whizbang model?

LeifCarrotson• 6 years ago

I'd argue too much, not too little market research is the problem. They just have wrong (ok, misaligned) objectives.

Soldered RAM is invisible on the table at Best Buy, but the price savings to the manufacturer are very visible on their balance sheet. In fact, a laptop that becomes useless and you need to upgrade from 8 GB soldered RAM to one with 16 GB soldered RAM after 2 years is more than twice as profitable as one that a consumer stuck a new SODIMM stick in and used for 4+ years. Companies understand that very well, and the average consumer hasn't been able to prove that they are even aware of these problems.

pishpash• 6 years ago

You're overthinking it, it's some PM justifying his or her own job in a company flush with so much cash it doesn't know what to do with it.

mancerayder• 6 years ago

(e.g., mid-priced models with only 8 GB RAM soldered, no ability to upgrade).

Aw, man, that's been a sticking point for years, that magic 8G. I don't know how they do it, but 8G of RAM has been the ever-soldered / or mid-range / you-need-to-pay-more-for-the-next-model-up thing for at least 5-6 years now. Even a web browser can eat up that 8G if it's hungry enough.

dehrmann• 6 years ago

That word is: lack of market research.

Market research said the iPhone would be a flop.

Most of the time, it's right, but every once in a while, you'll miss an opportunity if you follow market research too closely.

aksss2• 6 years ago

I think 16 is getting to the end of its usefulness in a laptop these days, but finding ultrabooks with 32 is still rather difficult (surface, XPS, ...?).

Truth is the OEMs are just trying to move product, their mission isn’t to be the rising tide that improves compute capability for society. High competition, low margin business in the PC world and most consumers don’t know enough about computers to understand what they’re buying - just look at how many people buy “gaming” computers at Walmart or Costco.

pengaru4• 6 years ago

Thin, light, very portable, USB ports on each side, headphone jack and an external monitor port (in this case, thunderbolt).

Welcome to ~2004 in IBM ThinkPad X-series land, IBM "solved the laptop form factor" ~4 years prior to Apple's Air.

And even before that Sony's PCG-Z505 delivered most of this in a robust and lightweight magnesium package.

alliao• 6 years ago

you've reminded me of my lovely Panasonic Let's Note W series, thank you

Retric• 6 years ago

I liked the ~2004 Thinkpad’s, but sadly they had crap battery life by today’s standards. You could install larger batteries and swap them out if they started to degrade, but most people just treated them as needing to be plugged in 24/7.

nonford150• 6 years ago

The Z was the ultimate - traveled everywhere with it. If it only could be updated a bit...

ianai• 6 years ago

To some non-trivial amount, many laptops wind up being just a desktop with the lid closed 100% of the time in someone's office. It's the size of the commercial industry that makes manufacturers have little reason to actually make good laptops for laptop use.

rsync4• 6 years ago

"Welcome to ~2004 in IBM ThinkPad X-series land, IBM "solved the laptop form factor" ~4 years prior to Apple's Air."

No. What goes without saying in my original comment was the fact that the MBA has an aluminum unibody.

Aluminum (or other metal) unibody cases represented a major step forward in aesthetics, substance and durability.

I don't care how interesting the thinkpads are (and they are interesting) - I am not going backwards to plastic.

dmichulke• 6 years ago

In German you have verschlimmbessern - making something worse in an attempt to improve it

raunakdag• 6 years ago

Has anyone else noticed that when conversations about “we need x word for y concept” arise, the German language nearly always seems to be the one that has something similar or already present?

nuker5• 6 years ago

Germans are cheating a bit, they just concatenate existing words and "hey, we have a word!"

WalterBright3• 6 years ago

My neighbor has used TurboTax for 20 years or so. This year, they came out with an "upgrade" that revamped the user interface. She no longer has any idea how to make it work. She's switching to using a CPA.

chrisseaton2• 6 years ago

But like most people I don't want or need legacy USB or headphone ports any more - so makes sense to refine the model and remove them to simplify?

If we took your advice they'd still have the old serial and parallel ports on them!

ethbr0• 6 years ago

The best hardware targets are "what your users are using" + "extrapolated upgrades over the lifecycle of your product."

E.g. why Steam regularly does this https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

I think it's fair to say that dropping the 3.5mm was way in advance of the user population.

As was dropping function and special keys.

amelius2• 6 years ago

We need to actually coin a word to describe "company solved their use-case wonderfully and can't resist fiddling around with it for reasons that don't align with their user-base.

Apple can only serve so many people well.

Apparently, you are not the "average" customer.

I'm in this exact situation every time I go shopping for shoes and find out I'm not within 1-sigma from the mean.

It sucks, but it's how mass production and mass integration works. Choice becomes very limited, and no company will rise to address a specific shortcoming for a specific group.

bryanrasmussen• 6 years ago

Apparently, you are not the "average" customer.

So supposedly the average customer needs USB ports, but only on one side of the computer?

mook• 6 years ago

It's important to note that your "average" customer is self—selected; the "average" Apple customer probably doesn't play AAA games (because anybody who does would have needed to buy a Windows machine with higher-end graphics). That is not the same as the "average" laptop buyer would not want to play them, though.

That doesn't mean Apple necessarily needs to go after those people, though, if they believe their current balance can get them customers they want.

timvisee2• 6 years ago

What about the performance though? I believe these older models can be unbearably slow, just to browse the web with. For some of my friends this is a problem just because of the limited RAM, but you won't be able to upgrade it because it's soldered on.

watermelon59• 6 years ago

Things are slow because of garbage bloated software. If devs stopped piling on ever more crap on existing systems and switched to optimizing their code, things would at least stay at the same performance or even gasp run faster.

jamesrcole• 6 years ago

The 11" Macbook Air solved the laptop form factor.

That's weirdly-specific. Some people would prefer a larger screen size, for example.

Could there be some refinements to my 2015 MBA ?

I upgraded from a 2015 (I think) MBA to a 2018 model (both 13" ones), and two actual improvements that I like are: larger trackpad size, and smaller overall dimensions (so there's a smaller bezel around the screen, for example).

silverpepsi• 6 years ago

trackpad was nice until I realized the trade-off was worse than the gain, it took a few days to notice the undeniable excess of unintended clicks and moves

sure enough, it had been right the first time and now is a mistake imho

kayodelycaon2• 6 years ago

That's weirdly-specific. Some people would prefer a larger screen size, for example.

And some people need a larger screen because we don't run the highest resolution possible. I run my 24" 4k monitors at high-density 1080p. My 16" laptop screen is at 1536x960 or 1344x840.

Anything smaller than a 16" MacBook Pro doesn't leave enough screen space to work with.

paleogizmo• 6 years ago

> The 11" Macbook Air solved the laptop form factor.
That's weirdly-specific. Some people would prefer a larger screen size, for example.
> Could there be some refinements to my 2015 MBA ?
I upgraded from a 2015 (I think) MBA to a 2018 model (both 13" ones), and two actual improvements that I like are: larger trackpad size, and smaller overall dimensions (so there's a smaller bezel around the screen, for example).

I'll agree that 13" rather than 11"seems to be a sweet spot for size, and the air deserves credit for popularizing that size. 13" is as small as you need to fit in a backpack, and still stupidly light. I suspect the air and it's competitors (surface book, xps, spectre) are what killed off the sub 10" netbook/palmtop form factor.

foobar1962• 6 years ago

Funny you mention that machine... I just finished a development contract that I did on an early 2013 MBA 11 inch. That little machine made me about $50K. I'm disappointed it cannot run Big Sur but keeping it anyway.

samatman3• 6 years ago

I gave mine a second life as an Ubuntu machine.

2GB is... tight, for almost anything, and I'm a bit concerned about the wear all that swap puts on the SSD.

Loved the form factor though, and yeah, that machine was my bread and butter for a solid year.

jseliger• 6 years ago

The author is also a journalist, which means he probably works primarily with words. For video editing and even some image editing, modern machines do make a difference.

dayofthedaleks• 6 years ago

“Gilding the lily.”

aksss2• 6 years ago

An idiom rather than a word, but that’s exactly it. “Lilly-gilding”, then, might be the “word” that meets the requirements.

GavinMcG• 6 years ago

Nah, that means adding unnecessary adornment. "Gilding" is explicitly about form. It would be a stretch to use that for a change that worsens something's substance.

sershe2• 6 years ago

There is/was a trope that an average Apple user only uses Safari so there's no need for this or that feature (starting from when Jobs was against having an appstore for the first iPhone), that's the only way I can think of that this statement is correct.

My laptops serve 2 purposes - first, the actual laptop that I use for travel with no monitor, and can use for work, photo processing, movie watching, gaming or whatever with some compromises. For that, 11" is utterly useless; it might have been acceptable in 2005 for checking something online, reading or sending an email, but these days a phone can do that so there are literally 0 uses cases for an 11" laptop imo.

The other use case is a portable desktop that I always plug into a (27-38") monitor for serious work or gaming; for that MBA is woefully underpowered. I used to work for a company where you could choose if you get an MBA (mostly salespeople/PMs/etc.) or an MBP (mostly engineers); there were always jokes about how you could immediately tell who never actually does any work ;)

rsync4• 6 years ago

I think you're missing a very common power-user workflow which is: browser + terminal.

For many people, all serious work happens in a near-zero resource application (the terminal) and the MBA is, of course, just fine for that.

bsanr23• 6 years ago

More like ruined. Manufacturers chasing that form factor, even for mobile workstations, has allowed them to justify a pivot away from user serviceability, and has also introduced major thermal/battery issues which have hobbled machines used for anything more serious than checking email (and, if you're using Chrome browser, maybe even that).

I don't want a phone with a large keyboard and screen. I want a mobile desktop. If it's a little heavier, thicker, and louder, that's fine.

marcandre• 6 years ago

Loved my 11" MBA. I needed more RAM and I could switch to any laptop I wanted for free, so I got a used MB 12" because it's the only Apple laptop with a similar form factor.

ardy42• 6 years ago

However, for reasons other than functionality or user-experience, Apple continues to fiddle and fuddle and muck around with laptops - making them weird and unwieldy in the best case, and totally unusable in the worst cases. In the case of USB ports exclusively on one side of the laptop, the only response can be merciless ridicule.

Those reasons are marketing and profit-seeking. Modern society has this false assumption that new = "improved." So even if Apple perfected the laptop form factor, the next model will be regression that's marketed as an improvement and believed to be one by undiscerning users. If they didn't do that, customers wouldn't buy it because it would be an old = "unimproved" design.

Though, a confounding factor here is there's a lot of personal preference with something like a laptop, so there's probably no one "objectively best" design. So some fraction of regressions are just catering to a different preference set.

baumandm• 6 years ago

The problem with this line of reasoning is you are using a specific outcome to criticize an entire process:

Apple failed to produce an iteratively superior product, therefore their process is "fiddle and fuddle."

Their process of innovation and iterative improvement brought us the Macbook Air and so many other great products. It seems very short-sighted to claim a particular model is the pinnacle of design and user-experience and they should quit now.

Will they always succeed? Certainly not. Should they keep trying? Definitely.

pjmlp6• 6 years ago

Actually the Asus 1215B solved it for me, not Air.

vram223• 6 years ago

fuddle and muck

swap(f, m)

Lio• 6 years ago

Dell's XPS 13 fills a similar role for me as a Linux user (also have a MacBook Pro but I'm using it less and less).

The XPS13 is the same size as the MBA11; I'm using an 11" MBA case for mine. It has a larger, 4K screen though and faster 4 core/8 thread CPU and better GPU.

USB-C on both sides and a MicroSD card.

The trackpad isn't as good as a Mac yet but it is acceptable to me and is improving all the time.

pcdoodle• 6 years ago

Here's a list of laptops that I would recommend:

Gaming / Software Dev ($399):

Dell Precision m4800/m6800

Supports docking station

Field work ($199):

HP Folio 9480m

Supports Docking Station

Offline Laptop($149):

IBM Thinkpad x220/x230

Supports Docking Station

Supports Pixel QI display (Direct Sunlight Viewable).

prvc• 6 years ago

There are only so many 2006-2012 vintage Thinkpads in existence, as he mentions in the last section. This certainly relevant to his "this is a hack" point, however, one should note that prices for these items used has been going up lately, a very unusual trend for used PCs. I hope manufacturers notice this latent value in the PC market.

Talanes3• 6 years ago

I remember some years ago when I still lurked 4chan that /t/ was all about buying old thinkpads, installing Arch on them, and showing off your i3 set-up. Prices were rising then too.

na85• 6 years ago

You mean /g/? /t/ is Torrents.

There was a good thing going there for a while but 4chan seems to have really declined in quality of late.

ja272• 6 years ago

Despite my daily driver being my i9 16" MacBook Pro, I've started falling for the Thinkpads. Had a couple E-series before but right as the pandemic started I grabbed a used i5 X270. Swapped in a 1080 IPS screen, an SSD, and eventually 16GB of RAM so I'm at about $500 for a machine that can do everything I _need_. Charges with IBM chargers or USB-C. Has enough ports. Can run macOS in VirtualBox and I've even built iOS apps on it. Handles light gaming. Matte screen. Cheap enough that I'm not paranoid about damaging it.

Yeah the used market prices crept up, probably due to families buying up laptops for online school students, but you can still catch bargains.

Unfortunately much past the X280/T480 generation and you stop being able to upgrade things yourself. It's like I see in the used Mac Mini market where there are a ton of otherwise useful machines from 2014 but they're crippled with 4GB of non-upgradable RAM.

pengaru4• 6 years ago

The X60 ThinkPads TFA settles on are the pinnacle of the X-series ThinkPad form factor.

That's not just any old laptop, and if my situation is any indication, the author wouldn't hesitate one moment if offered a brand new X60 specimen with a stronger less crack-prone chassis material and modern SoC+LED-lit LCD. Unfortunately no such thing is currently available.

prodent• 6 years ago

Like an X62 or X210 from 51nb?

https://www.facebook.com/lcdfans/

pengaru4• 6 years ago

The X62 doesn't improve on the chassis flaws at all. I already have an SXGA+ modded X61s, it's quite a fragile end result and still CCFL unless you do an LED mod which I've done as well with mixed/mediocre results.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

I also stopped buying new laptops. The full biological cost is hard to fully imagine, just incredible in size. If you think about it, hundreds and thousands of plant, bacterial, animal, mammal, bird, and other lives are laid down for each of these amazing powerful artefacts. If there are previously used alternatives available, I cannot in good conscience vote for the creation of another one. So I started with a couple of refurbs, then I started just getting hand-me-downs. People are constantly getting rid of old laptops, tablets, phones, keyboards, etc.

As a coder, working on something older also gives me perspective on performance of anything I'm working on.

JohnJamesRambo• 6 years ago

I wish more people thought like you. I love old stuff that still works for what I need it to do.

My original iPhone SE and Samsung Chromebook bought for $30 on eBay (with SDSU etched on the front) work perfectly for what I need them for.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

Thank you for the appreciation and validation!

I have an iPad which I bought on Craigslist and runs iOS9, and it still works great for my Web needs.

I only use it for my own websites, which I keep lightweight and accessible, and a a few others like HN.

jansc• 6 years ago

I did the same thing. Bought a refurbished Thinkpad X250 and installed FreeBSD on it. Now it use it as my main development machine. I haven't look back since.

glouwbug• 6 years ago

I rocked a T43 (from 2005) until 2012, then called it quits, and got a x230 which I still use until now. I always thought I was crazy running a 2005 machine until 2012, but the x230 has been up and running for 8 years now.

It's a very good machine, and it fits in my little blue shoulder lunch bag

nuker5• 6 years ago

As a coder, working on something older

Have you seen Retina HiDPI displays? You'd never go back.

antiterra• 6 years ago

I have Retina/HiDPI everything, but I still sorely miss the speed of a real text mode, and, for coding, would miss nothing about high-dpi font rendering.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

Yeah, I've seen them. They're nice. I'm flexible enough to use most displays, even the standard 7" raspi display in certain circumstances.

WalterBright3• 6 years ago

I get them from the pawn shop. They'll be a year or two old, but perfectly serviceable. That and the thrift store are great places to pick up TVs, stereo equipment, guitars, tools, etc.

pjmlp6• 6 years ago

I wish a couple of more Rust aficionados, and the Android Studio team, would do the same instead of using most likely beefy Ryzen desktops.

wayneftw• 6 years ago

I'm so glad that my job allows me the freedom to just do my job in a quiet office with a desktop computer instead of making me optimize for working in meetings and on the move.

I can't imagine spending $2k+ every 4-5 years to get a new machine. For less than $1k I get machines that have more powerful tech, that I can hide away under my desk, which last longer than any laptop.

ogre_codes5• 6 years ago

This story works well for a professional writer. If you are a professional developer/ video editor/ audio professional, or any number of other professions that lean heavier on the hardware they use, it's quite different. If buying new hardware is going to substantially improve my work-day, I'm going to buy new hardware. With the pace of modern hardware improvement, the time between purchases is longer, but there is still a refresh. If your time is worth money, spending money to save time is an easy decision.

I don't toss my old devices out, they get another 5-10 years use in someone else's hands so much of the environmental impact arguments are more-or less irrelevant.

tobijkl• 6 years ago

At least in my bubble, even professional developers, video editors, and audio engineers use a desktop computer as their primary daily driver and do not rely on their laptop for computational power rather than as a medium for presenting their work. Some of them are even switching to tablets for presenting to clients. A desktop computer will always offer more computational power and a more straightforward and cheaper update path. Why update a perfectly well-working laptop for a newer model when you have become accustomed to the quirks and features of your current device.

amerkhalid• 6 years ago

This is exactly what I am doing now except my desktop is in cloud. For months, I was researching laptops, I am currently 13" MBP user but was debating switching to Windows laptop. However, if it was going to be able to run video games, it was turning into $2000+ purchase. Plus pretty big to be portable.

Then I discovered Shadow PC. For $12 a month, I have pretty powerful machine. My MBP is now a simple thin client. When it dies, I ll buy the cheapest Macbook. Also I use 21" external monitor or my TV to play games. Works great.

Also been using it for ML projects but unfortunately they will shutdown the VM if it doesn't receive user input. So long running processes require you to be sitting by the machine.

I am a big user of iPad and their iPad app is awesome. If I can figure out right dongle tobl hook up hdmi, keyboard, and mouse, I might just never buy another laptop.

andrei_says_2• 6 years ago

Pro dev rocking MacBook Pro 2015 here. I use it for full stack rails, js, front end design including photoshop. And for photography - capture one photoshop Lightroom etc.

I use MagSafe, SD card slot, USB ports daily, and the full size hdmi port weekly. The keyboard is wearing out, and the battery cycles are in the hundreds but everything just works.

That feeling that you get when you accidentally walk at full speed through your charger’s cable and you know nothing bad is going to happen? I get it about once a week.

I may upgrade to an m1 mb pro 16 but I’d still have to swallow the downgrade in port functionality and the touch bar monstrosity.

Apple has been designing primarily for cheap efficient production and maximum profit - for a long time now.

schrijver3• 6 years ago

Running a 2013 maxed out Macbook Pro professionally and it‘s great! I upgraded from a 2015 Macbook Air (both used), and the extra speed was useful. I don’t really feel to need for it to be any quicker though. But like you I use the ports all the time—so upgrading would in some sense feel like a downgrade.

(btw in my experience the battery can be replaced easily, also at non-official repair shops)

ja272• 6 years ago

2 years ago I went from a 2011 MBP to a used i7 2015 15" MBP and it was a great machine. I liked the ports and it was really handy to stash a 400GB microSD in the slot for more space. I upgraded the stock SSD to an NVMe and it really made a difference.

I went to the i9 16" MBP a year ago and yeah it's new and shiny and faster but not a world-changer. Managing to skip the butterfly keyboard was the big win. The better speakers are surprisingly the best feature upgrade from the 2015 to 2019.

Except for the lure of the M1 Macs, a used i7 15" 2015 MacBook Pro is probably the best bang for the buck in the Apple world.

tdeck• 6 years ago

I don't know, I've had the same business-class HP ultrabook as my personal machine for the last 7 years. It can barely play Minecraft on medium graphics but it's basically done every software development task I've cared to throw at it. Granted I'm not doing deep learning or building the Linux kernel but for building web applications it's fine. It is extremely slow at running the Android emulator, however.

pjmlp6• 6 years ago

As I replied on another thread, I don't do containers and this laptop is doing just fine with 8GB, running stuff like W10 Pro and VS 2019.

schrijver3• 6 years ago

I can see how that works for you, but it’s not a given. With the exception of software developers, creative professionals really don‘t make that much money (unless they’re famous), and upgrading also brings a lot of inconveniences (software that no longer works, ports that no longer come with your computer) that incur extra costs (new software and the time to learn it, dongles). My friend edits her movies on a 2012 laptop, my other friend records her album on a 2012 laptop. Graphic designers around here often buy the 2015 or earlier macbooks second hand, because of the useful ports and the keyboards that don’t break.

open-source-ux• 6 years ago

What about desktop computers? They are arguably more long-lasting, adaptable (upgradable), more powerful and cheaper than laptops. But of course, their prinicpal disadvantage is their lack of portability.

If portability isn't a consideration, them I still recommend desktops when buying a computer. My home desktop is 8 years old (bought in 2012) and running fine and fast. Of course, it has been upgraded e.g. it has more memory and a second hard drive.

Desktops give you the space to upgrade without having to wastefully throw away perfectly working components. Can one say the same about laptops?

II2II• 6 years ago

Aside from portability, power consumption tends to be a drawback with desktop computers. The difference may not be a factor for most people, but it sounds like it would be an factor for the author.

Given the author's mention of the environmental impact of producing computers, it is also worth asking what it amounts to for desktops. While the longevity of the machine will help, the additional materials and replacement components (to achieve that longevity) will have an additional impact. The question is how much, since I doubt that it scales linearly with mass.

_carbyau_• 6 years ago

Decisions in portable vs not may be a side effect of stability in lifestyle space.

Desktop implies desk. And well, a chair I guess. :-)

People living in various group houses, moving all the time etc see a laptop as making that all easy. Let alone those living from their car etc etc.

Anecdotally, I am fortunate enough to be amazed at friends who want a "gaming laptop" but then have a "nest" on the couch hunched over the coffee table.

I keep wondering why they don't set aside a space for themselves when computing. And if you do that, a desktop naturally follows...

For me, a desktop, tablet and phone covers it all. And the tablet may not get replaced when it's time is up.

GoblinSlayer2• 6 years ago

A permanently allocated desk. If you have other uses for the desk, the desktop will get in the way, while laptop can move to a shelf when not needed.

bxparks2• 6 years ago

I guess I've been doing something similar. I currently use 9 laptops (2 Windows, 5 Linux, 1 MacBookAir, 1 Chromebook). Only the MBA11 and the Chromebook were purchased new. The rest were bought on eBay for $250-$600. After getting them, I max out the RAM, replace the HDD with SSD, or upgrade the SSD. A few of them needed some parts replaced (e.g. fans). The battery almost always needs replacing at some point. Fortunately, that's easy with these older laptops. Even the MBA11 has a replaceable battery because it's from 2013. Out of the ~15 laptops that I have purchased on eBay over the past ~15 years, I think only 2 have had serious hardware issues.

I seem to have standardized on Dell laptops, mostly because I have drawers full of their interchangeable accessories, like power adapters and docking stations. I've been happy with their Precision line, or the higher-end models of their Latitude line. [Edited: to make the relationship between Precision and Latitude more clear.] The sweet spot in age seems to be 2-4 years old, probably when corporate users are refreshed, and the old ones are wiped and sold.

Off-topic: Does anyone else have a hard time reading the article due to its blue/orange background? I find it visually painful to read a paragraph when it is split into 2 colors. I have to scroll the paragraph to one color or the other.

amphitheatre• 6 years ago

The reasoning behind having the split-colour background is certainly unique and pretty interesting. However, I agree that it made the reading experience harder than it needed to be. My eyes kept darting above and below the dividing line.

yangikan• 6 years ago

Where do you get the batteries from? The HP batteries I get from Amazon give up on me after 3 months.

bxparks2• 6 years ago

I get them on eBay, but you are right, the success ratio is not great, maybe 50-70%. Batteries are advertized as "New", but the BIOS will say 100-200 cycles. I have tried 3 times to find a battery for my MBA11 without success. I'm going to try iFixit.com for my 4th attempt.

giantrobot3• 6 years ago

The website is hosted on a solar powered Raspberry Pi (IIRC). So the background is colored such to show the current battery level of the server. While a clever idea, there's much better ways it could be done that would make the site more readable. If I were being uncharitable I'd say it's more about virtue signaling than actual utility.

istjohn• 6 years ago

If you don't mind, what are you doing with 9 laptops simultaneously?

ornornor• 6 years ago

One for each finger, duh. The tenth finger is for power then on/off.

bserge2• 6 years ago

I too, try to get 2 identical laptops - if one goes down, the other can take over, if both break, I can most likely use parts from both to make a functional one, while waiting for parts to arrive or for the service shop to fix the broken machine.

All because it can take freaking weeks in my experience, and they can mess up and not fix it at all...

Of course, I only buy used/refurb, so they're really cheap - cheaper than one new one.

There is a big difference in performance though, you can't buy something too old if you want to do anything intensive. Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for the environment), companies throw away perfectly fine workstation-class laptops every year it seems.

I'd like to get some Ryzen machines next, the performance for the money is unmatched.

I've also been thinking a small form factor desktop coupled with any laptop as a display could be a better choice - new laptops come with soldered CPUs, GPUs, even RAM, which is a shame. A desktop would be upgradeable for a good while. And I see you could build them really small, like XBox small, they'd fit in luggage rather easily.

Also, pardon me, but wtf is this about:

tiny and messy IT shop run by a Chinese in Antwerp, Belgium. The Chinese may not have a reputation for building quality products, but they sure know how to fix things.

Really man? -_-

Ar-Curunir• 6 years ago

Yeah the entire bit about Chinese folks in the article makes me really skeptical about the rest of the author’s “advice”

tsjq• 6 years ago

A desktop would be upgradeable for a good while.

indeed. the desktops at my home are a nice example of "Ship of Theseus" .

lowtechmagazine2• 6 years ago

Author here. That sentence will be deleted when the website regenerates, cause it doesn't seem to have the effect that I was aiming for. Thanks for pointing it out.

That said, I was impressed by the man's repair qualities. I asked him how he was going to repair my 2006 laptop without access to spare parts. He said he would just repair the fan by replacing the copper wire. Don't see that happening in an official repair shop. And he did it overnight.

bserge2• 6 years ago

Sorry, it's just that it really threw me off, sounds out of place. And considering pretty much everything from high end to the cheapest stuff has Chinese components (or is completely made in China) these days, it doesn't make much sense.

Also, that's the kind of repairs I would do, I've actually fixed quite a few fans that started grinding with simple automotive grease, they last for years :D

dewlinedew2• 6 years ago

I still have toshiba laptop, those things are like the toyota pickup of laptops

contingencies2• 6 years ago

These days I would say just buy an rPi 4B+ ... it's tiny, it's light, it doesn't need noisy fans (the first bane of old laptops), it doesn't require ancient non-uniform battery technology (the second bane of old laptops), keyboard and screen can be upgraded when destroyed (the third and fourth banes of old laptops), it's cheap, it's fast enough for nearly anything. Invest some extra in a wireless keyboard and mouse, optionally a portable screen or second hand Android tablet https://passivetech.com/2020/07/30/how-to-use-an-android-tab... for the tiny subset of situations in which you really need to compute and don't have one available at home/office/hotel, and buy a USB battery pack.

ClumsyPilot4• 6 years ago

You can buy intel-nuc style computer from aliexpress for $100 and it performs much better than pi with compatability, performance, storage, thermals, etc.

Like beelink line

contingencies2• 6 years ago

Yes there are other options. rPi is good on power consumption, tooling, distribution network, and community.

alisonkisk• 6 years ago

This is a bit over the top. It works for someone whose only computing task is text editing. Working off an SD is painful if you have a non-trivial amount of IO.

veddox• 6 years ago

At the moment, all my computing hardware was bought refurbed (Thinkpad T420, iPhone SE, iPad Pro 1). You have to make sure you find a serious reseller, but if you do, you pay a quarter of the price for high-quality hardware.

I‘m particularly pleased with my Thinkpad: built in 2011, I bought it in early 2017. Plopped in an SSD and 8 GB extra RAM, total cost ~300€. Runs beautifully.

fakedang• 6 years ago

Who tf be spending 1600 Euros on a laptop? Bruh... And who substitutes that with a 2006 version laptop? face-palm

Like another comment down below mentions, companies toss away perfectly good laptops after a year or two, which can be bought in the ballpark of 150-300 quid/euros/USD. They'll last 2-3 years on average, and even longer if you aren't into intensive activities. Just go to some IT guy in a multinational - I remember my old firm had stacks of ThinkPads piled all the way up. Some companies even have old MBPs at hand.

xyst• 6 years ago

doesn't even have to be a "multinational" company, any entity that buys computers in bulk can be a candidate (local schools or a small business).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EATdYG7h9IQ

apparently a private school is Aussie land was going to throw 100 of these MacBooks into the dumpster/landfill. They were intercepted by someone else and this person received 15 of those MacBooks (I guess he just paid for shipping and handling?). After repairing them, he had 11 functioning computers at the end of the video. The other 4 were salvaged for parts or something like that.

johnny22• 6 years ago

a local computer store sells such machines for $100-$200 USD that are clearly from old offices/schools. You can tell because they're all the dell optiplex. My father is using one of those.

giantg2• 6 years ago

My laptop is about 13 years old. I got a new battery and an SSD a few years ago for it. Still works fine. I usually just use my desktop for most stuff.

ThePhysicist• 6 years ago

IMHO, the Thinkpad T430 was one of the worst T-series laptops Lenovo ever produced. Mine barely lasted 3 years and had to be serviced multiple times as the screen hinges broke and the fan became super loud, among other things.

The T460p which I use now is much better. I'm currently testing a T490 as a replacement, which seems quite nice as well but has some annoying features (glossy display, integrated smaller battery) that might convince me to stay on the T460p for a while longer. Also, CPU performance hasn't really increased in the last 4 years, the T460p has almost the same Geekbench score as the T490. The display is arguably better (nicer color rendition and higher brightness) and the laptop is 35 % lighter as well as signifantly thinner, on the other hand the battery is 30 % smaller and power usage hasn't gone down compared to the T460p, so it maxes out at around 4 hours of usage.

waiseristy2• 6 years ago

Interesting you had such a bad experience with your T430. Mine served me faithfully for almost 8 years without a single issue. Even took quite a few hits that would have destroyed most other laptops. Upgraded to a t490 and also have had 0 issues with that, though it does seem to be a bit more fragile

brewdad• 6 years ago

I picked up a T430 from eBay for less than $300 about 4-5 years ago. It worked great for me for a couple of years until it developed a weird issue that would freeze randomly under Windows. I never had the issue when using Linux. Since I needed Windows for a few applications, I handed it down to my son. He's been running Arch on it without issue to this day.

d1amonds• 6 years ago

I just imagined a completely silent typewriter that can write to usb sticks and perhaps print previously typed documents. I'm not at all sure about this printing. Perhaps all it should do is allow me to write - and nothing else.

FemmeAndroid• 6 years ago

It’s not exactly what you’re after but I love my Alphasmart neo 2. I can type on it, and I can spit it’s contents into a computer to print. It’s an excellent portable writing machine that’s been around for a while, and is quite inexpensive to pick up on eBay.

simonblack• 6 years ago

I do buy new laptops, but then I keep them for years and years.

In the case of my Lenovo T410 that I bought in 2010, I finally up(?)graded it after 10 years in 2020 to a Lenovo P53.

hzhou321• 6 years ago

I am afraid the author can't really hold on to his old laptops much longer. The web browser may demand more resources than the old hardware can support and the websites the author frequent to may embed enough scripts that slow his experience to a crawl.

Tade0• 6 years ago

I get the point the author is trying to make, but I think the environmental savings on not buying a laptop are miniscule comparing to all the other components of his carbon footprint.

That flight from Belgium to Spain alone, which he likely took, was around 1,000 megajoules.

fy202• 6 years ago

For those who don't work in megajoules, that's around 277kWh, which an average EV would drive around 1000 miles on.

ClumsyPilot4• 6 years ago

Thats what I was think - he would do more for environment by not eating beef for a year, or not flying, or using exclusively public transport / bike.

Also 4000 megajoules is like 1/10th of the average energy spent in UK to heat a house, so upgrade your insulation and get a green energy provider.

glafa• 6 years ago

according to this article from the columbia journalism review:

“For 10 years I interviewed engineers and scientists about new technologies and renewable energies. And I kind of learned during that period that, well, it doesn’t really work,” De Decker tells CJR from his home in Barcelona. Around the same time, De Decker stopped flying, opting instead to travel by train, boat, or bike. Readers would sometimes remark that while the magazine preached an ethos of low-tech, it still relied on the most prominent of high tech inventions: the internet.

https://www.cjr.org/covering_climate_now/low-tech-magazine.p...

schrijver3• 6 years ago

Buying less things, especially new things, especially new electronics, is still one of the easiest lifestyle changes you can make if you want to lessen your ecological footprint. Especially since electronics have their own specific impact on the environment (and human living conditions) because of e-waste and the mining of precious metals.

It might not have the same impact on emissions as cutting out red meat, planes and automobiles, but it remains significant, and you can implement it in addition to these other changes (as glafa notes, OP doesn’t fly).

bryanmgreen• 6 years ago

I'd enjoy some numbers on the environmental damage of laptop versus desktop consumption.

My desktop is 6 years old with an i7 CPU (high-end) and 750Ti GPU (entry level). My monitor is a 24" 1080 Samsung bought new in 2009 for ~$120 at Frys if I recall. All in all, this package cost me $1,300 (there was a sale on the i7 at purchase).

I use it heavily for photography, occasional video and audio, and I'm currently playing Fallen Order (released Nov. 2019) with Medium+ settings (Texture is high) loading from a SSD bought in 2016. There is admittedly some weakness in the gaming department, but otherwise, zero issues. But I do think I'll buy a used 1660/2070 GPU and monitor in a few months to upgrade.

I have an iPad Mini 4 I use when traveling and going to coffee shops and that pretty much always fits my mobility needs.

Too many people are buying $1.5k+ plus laptops that they don't maximize usage of, then chuck away in 3 years because they either die due to the compromising form factor or because they want an unnecessary upgrade to browse the internet.

ClumsyPilot4• 6 years ago

The environmental footprint of laptips is similar, so whether they by $300 laptop or €3000 laptop hardly matters - others spend same money on fancy dinners or gambling.

If you then consider that, unless tbe person is mental, they'd normally sell the laptop, it's not that bad.

bullen• 6 years ago

My last laptop is also a ThinkPad but X61s (the last one that had the IBM logo)... I'm not using it that much because I don't move around but I replaced the drive with a 30GB SSD like ten years ago and installed linux. Also had to replace the heatpipe + fan (because of more and more noise) but still works great!

I would actually recommend people use a Raspberry 4 now a days, and just bring the pi or have one at each location if you don't need security... and have screens/keyboard/mouse at all places (remember to use the same keyboard everywhere). Working on trains is not really constuctive as you cannot do deep work there anyhow!

Stoic0• 6 years ago

I’m in the same boat. I own used x230 and a used T460 both souped up with more memory and SSDs. I just picked up a used T480 with an i7 and 2560 display. Will soup it up with more RAM and another SSD and should be good to go for a few years at least.

Anthony-G• 6 years ago

I have a similar attitude to the author. I bought one new laptop in my lifetime but realised that second-hand or refurbished offer better value for money. For the past eight years, I’ve been using a Core 2 Duo Dell Vostro from 2007. I’m conscious of the environmental cost to manufacturing brand new devices so I only ever buy second-hand mobile phones and I apply the same philosophy to other consumer goods – cars (20 years old), stereo equipment (25 years old), bicycle (15 years old), etc. I sometimes buy clothes from charity shops but the shops have so little range in male clothes that it takes too much time to find something I like in a size that fits.

My laptop is 13 years old and I’ve upgraded its RAM to the maximum (4GB) and replaced the hard drive with a SSD. It runs Ubuntu 18.04 with LXDE as a lightweight desktop environment. I could probably use a more minimal window manager but for my usage, it’s the web browser that tends to eat RAM – due to modern websites’ predilection for externalising a ridiculously huge amount of unnecessary computation on to the end user. I see the article writer mentions that they use Vivaldi and Midori. I tried Midori for a couple of months around 2015 but ended up coming back to Firefox.

What makes Firefox usable is that I disable a lot of (most) JavaScript with the uMatrix browser extension (I used to use NoScript before Quantum). Since I’m not very disciplined, I can have a couple of hundred tabs open at a time; what makes this feasible is the Auto Tab Discard extension which stops open (but unused) browser tabs from using RAM and CPU.

geocrasher2• 6 years ago

Having just inherited a Dell Studio 19" laptop from 2007 or 8, I find this very interesting- the browser part, that is. I see no reason not to run W10 on it- it'll run it fine. But modern websites- that's what sends most of my older computers to the bin.

GoblinSlayer2• 6 years ago

I had a second hand notebook, and one problem with it was yellow screen. Is it not a problem now?

edsonmedina2• 6 years ago

For a low-tech solar powered website, it does require a lot of loading (>500Kb for the homepage, >350kb just for this article).

You should optimize your images. This would probably drastically reduce your electricity use per unique visitor.

Nice article by the way. I love the frugality.

giantrobot3• 6 years ago

It's a solar powered Raspberry Pi!

<sub>Behind CloudFlare which is not solar powered and does most of the work sending stuff to clients.</sub>

dredmorbius3• 6 years ago

The pages are considerably optimised, including dithering images: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/about.html

edsonmedina2• 6 years ago

You call 283kb optimized?

In the late 90s (when websites looked exactly like that) 100kb would be considered excessive.

tcpekin• 6 years ago

Someone once posted a website they made in the HN comments that filtered Craigslist/Ebay for the exact old style laptops to reuse... does anyone remember what that was, or what it was called? Was a very nice way to keep on top of the offerings in a region without having to keep track of all the keywords.

dredmorbius3• 6 years ago

CL used to support RSS search feeds.

They quietly dropped those this past September.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24840310

https://forums.craigslist.org/?ID=309670165

https://forums.craigslist.org/?act=searchFrameMaker&SQ=rss&f...

Even the demo feeds are mostly broken: https://www.craigslist.org/about/rss

sfgweilr4f2• 6 years ago

That raspberry pi 400[1] seems to partially fit the bill for me. Hook up a USB monitor if you want to have the laptop aspect since those sometimes have an internal battery. Some sort of trackpad etc.

I'm sure, with enough enthusiasm, someone could have a workable laptop for basic tasks like writing or video. For those with less enthusiasm, don't underestimate the power of duct tape.

[1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400/

bane• 6 years ago

I'm seriously considering switching over to a Shadow PC and downsizing my home computing needs. Reasons:

- It's relatively cheap, starts under $200/yr. It would take years to equal the cost of an equivalent system.

- Like most cloud services they'll upgrade the hardware over time.

- I can log into my exact same workstation from anywhere, on any device and even pick up from where I last left off.

- I can upgrade to more powerful GPUs if I need, up to absolutely state of the art 30xx level. The base level has a 1080 equivalent.

- It has USB passthrough so I can use whatever I/O devices I want.

- The virtual desktop has gigabit internet connectivity.

Some downsides:

- RAM as only 12GB

- Disk starts at 256GB (but you can add more up to 2TB)

- Windows 10

However....there are upgrade packages coming soon with up to 32GB RAM, better GPUs and more default storage.

TBH, I have 10 year old laptops in the closet I could use with this that would suddenly make them viable systems again.

kbrackbill• 6 years ago

I've been using Shadow for the past few months as I've been on the road and didn't want to drag my gaming PC with me. Overall it's been a great experience. The biggest downside for my use case is that it's very sensitive to internet quality- internet that's totally fine for streaming video, browsing, etc will cause games to be unplayable on shadow since you need such consistent throughput and latency. Related to this, I haven't gotten USB passthrough (or the joystick forwarding) to work at all really, and I'm guessing that's also a connection quality issue.

For your use case where you're using it at home to downsize I think you'd avoid all of these problems, assuming you have good internet at home.

girvo• 6 years ago

I used Parsec with an AWS GPU instance for gaming for a couple of years. As long as your connection is good and you don’t ever want to access it offline, I can recommend this paradigm!

giantrobot3• 6 years ago

When it comes to office applications, Linux is clearly better than its commercial alternatives. For a lack of experience, I cannot tell you if that holds for other software as well.

Well I am completely convinced. Linux office applications are clearly (clearly!) better than commercial suites. /s

To the point of the article, despite the last point saying the practice of using old laptops is a hack, they spend most of the article brow beating anyone that doesn't follow suit or agree with them.

Some laptops are awesome and can last for many years. These are often (not always) laptops aimed at enterprise/institutional buyers...like many ThinkPads. They are designed to be serviced and have readily available parts lists and service manuals. Internally they're fairly prosaic which makes servicing more practical. Others are just generally well built and don't have a lot of moving parts to even fail.

Everything else is just shit that can't be easily serviced and is always falling apart. It's expensive and frustrating to keep such laptops longer than a few years. If you can't avoid buying one you're better off properly disposing of them than fighting with them. If you do have a laptop with good/serviceable hardware it'll easily keep working well for years.

I think the point of software is the author's strongest point. If Linux/FOSS is a feasible platform for your work and you have a productive workflow you're going to have a much easier time with Linux on an old machine versus Windows. Even the fastest moving rolling release Linux distros change far less than just Windows 10's semi-annual releases. The requirements also aren't going to change much if at all.

techolic• 6 years ago

I had been using a ThinkPad X201 bought second hand in late 2013 for a little over $300 until the end of last year.

There're a couple of things that are less modern: a crappy 800p display, USB 2.0, limited external display resolution. But if it's not particularly for the display I would probably still be using it. I was doing some window development work at some point, and had zero problem running visual studio with a small project and doing whatever I had to do while the model has just 2GB of RAM.

ohazi2• 6 years ago

The sweet spot for me seems to be last year's thinkpad + all the parts needed for a complete refurbishment + upgrades.

  eBay thinkpad: $400-$800
  ssd: $150
  new battery: $100

  (As needed)
  new keyboard: $50
  new trackpad: $30
  new plastic parts: $140
  new hinges: $20
  new display: $150
  ram: $100

You can spend more on the laptop and skip some/all of the cosmetic refurbishment, or spend less on a junker and replace everything. Either way, you can end up with a "looks and feels new" machine for around $1000 that would be comparable to a $1500 - $2200 model if you bought it new.

It's also kind of fun.

cetaphil• 6 years ago

Any specific models that you can suggest?

ohazi2• 6 years ago

I like the T480. I have one that I completely refurbished this way, and another one (for work) where I ended up buying and replacing a flaky display cable myself (~$20) even though it was still under warranty because Lenovo's service department couldn't reproduce an intermittent failure and I got tired of shipping it back to them.

Performance is fine, the 1440p display is great, it can idle at 5W, and working on it is easy. The dual-battery system is... weird. I like the concept, but it's been mildly annoying in practice, which I think is why Lenovo ended up dropping it.

This is the last T-series model they made with a hot-swappable battery. There's an internal Li-Po pack and you can choose between another flush-fitting Li-Po or slightly chunkier 6-cell/9-cell cylindrical packs for the external battery.

The charge controller allows you to set charge start/stop thresholds for each battery (e.g. stop charging at 80%, don't top off the cell until it drops below 70%), but it doesn't let you control which battery is discharged first, or when the switchover happens. It always discharges the "healthier" cell first, based on measured capacity / nominal capacity, and it always switches to the other cell at 5% remaining. I think their intent was to allow the two batteries to wear out evenly. But if you want to actually use the full capacity of your cells, you end up putting a lot of stress on the first battery by leaving it at 5% for hours or days. Leave it like this for slightly too long and you'll damage it, and the battery system will start discharging the other battery first, until you damage that one, etc. Hot swapping doesn't work as well as it should, because if the internal battery discharged first, but the switchover was yesterday, it's probably self-discharged to below 5%, and may not be able to provide enough power to survive the hot-swap. It would be nice if you could change the switchover threshold (e.g. to 20%), and nicer still if you could tell it which battery you want it to discharge.

The T490 onwards only have an internal pack. It's connectorized, so you can still buy a fresh one and replace it every few years, but you won't be swapping it on an airplane.

neilv2• 6 years ago

After trying many models, I found the most practical overall for me is a ThinkPad T500 (highest-res tall-screen version, modded with a transplanted T60 keyboard, and the T-series CPU replaced with P9600 or P9700), and running Debian GNU/Linux with Xmonad.

Bonus: at around $100 apiece, I can afford a few spares.

The main downside is that it's noticeably vintage, which, given current industry ageism, isn't good optics in the hands of someone already 30+ yo. So I should try to spin the vintage as a hipster fashion thing. :)

scooble• 6 years ago

I’m ashamed to say that this was a factor in upgrading from my venerable x200.

The one time I decided to try my hand at interviewing for a coding position, the interviewer gave me a rather sniffy ‘what is that!’ When it came out of my bag.

Doing onsite demos with a vga only vintage laptop also isn’t probably the best look.

neilv2• 6 years ago

Cover the lid with decals from the latest software stacks? Throw in a "Music Band" one? :)

AtlasBarfed• 6 years ago

Another reason Apple is winning long term, if Lenovo and other major brands are downgrading quality.

marttt• 6 years ago

Having owned a X60s -- how do people cope with neck pain resulting from using a 12" laptop for longer sessions? I absolutely loved that machine, but eventually sold it because of this and a mild issue of pinky finger numbness.

I have sensitive eyes, so I think the TN screen was also somewhat an issue. I do regret not buying an IPS-modded X60s I was offered at one point, though.

st1ck• 6 years ago

Another nice feature of old enough CPUs is that they don't have IME.

solatic• 6 years ago

I have an old Thinkpad X200 that I love to death, but that 1280x800 display is just too low-resolution. It feels like trying to use a schoolchild's classroom writing desk as sufficiently large for multiple papers and books kept open all at once, and not a work desk of proper size. High resolution displays are such an enormous quality of life improvement that it's entirely worth it to buy new hardware to drive the resolution.

I do empathize with the author that laptop hardware quality isn't like it used to be.

tluyben2• 6 years ago

The bizarre thing is that laptops have gotten cheap enough and the monthly credit buying options are a few cups of coffee (at a restaurant) for a brandnew laptop, that people keep giving me their old (2-3 years) laptops. My daily driver is a x220 from 2011 I did buy for next to nothing second hand. But after that I cannot see me needing a new one as I have stacks of nice laptops lying around. Where I can see it going wrong is if I have to travel again. These laptops are either too large and heavy andor have no battery life. But if travel does not come back, there is never the need for a new one. And I cannot see why most people do either. Especially people who are doing things that do not require massive amounts of power. I work with large applications in c#, java, js, python and go on this 10 year old laptop and I am no less productive than my friends/colleagues who jumped on the m1 hype. At some point it is just wanting the newest things just because they are new I guess.

solnyshok2• 6 years ago

well, laptops without batteries are still usable if in-house mobility is needed. I use mine mostly on-the-charger at home and at work. I keep charger at all regular places where I might sit down for couple of hours of work. It is especially easy now with USB-C PD becoming a defacto standard.

pjmlp6• 6 years ago

Typing this on a 2009 laptop maxed out to 8GB and a SSD, with a NVidia card (DX 11).

Runs Windows 10 Pro just fine, alongside VS 2019 (.NET/C++ workloads), Eclipse, Netbeans, Office, all modern browsers, the card is more than capable to handle WebGL 2.0 can achieve.

No need to keep buying shiny toys every 2 years, specially when one doesn't buy into container fashion trend.

Markoff• 6 years ago

TLDR used/refurbished thinkpads have much better value than any new laptop

also bought T520 1-2 years ago perfectly satisfying my needs after upgrading RAM and SSD, for years used another used T20 and in between some cheap new thinkpad but not T line, had the worst experience actually with the cheap new one

jbotz• 6 years ago

Just a small point of information... the author says the embodied energy of a laptop is about 3000 - 4000 Megajules. That turns out to be just about the average monthly electricity consumption for a typical American home.

Normille3• 6 years ago

I had to play, after reading this. So I've just searched my emails for the receipt from when I bought my current laptop:

  > Delivery: 23 Jul, 2013 - 25 Jul, 2013 by Standard Shipping
  > 11-inch MacBook Air
  > £1,159.00
  > With the following configuration:
  > 1.7GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 3.3GHz
  > 8GB 1600MHz LPDDR3 SDRAM
  > 512GB Flash Storage

Which according to this site [0] means I've had it => 2708 days. Which averages out to => 42p/day or => £156/year.

The only deteriorations I've noticed over those 7 1/2 years is that; the battery doesn't hold charge for much more than an hour [not a problem, as I tend to work with it plugged in all the time], the screen has a couple of pock-marks [made of soft plastic, rather than glass], the fraying adaptor cable is held together with glue, screen hinges are a bit floppy and I had to replace the keyboard [although that was down to 'wine error']

Other than that, My MBA still works fine and feels quick enough for anything I need to do on it. And that includes a lot of graphics work in Illustrator and Photoshop, as well as all the other less demanding 'stuff' I do on it. So, all things considered, I reckon that's a pretty good return on my investment!

[0] https://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?d1=24&m...

Further thoughts:

Given that the guy's 'raison d'être' seems to be about sustainability and green energy, it seems quite ironic that:

1: He abandoned his first fully functional laptop to land-fill and bought a new one just because the adaptor died. Rather than just buy a new adaptor [non-Apple ones are available at a fraction of the cost of OEM, if the price was too much to stomach].

2: He abandoned his second fully functional laptop to landfill and bought a new one just because the version of WindowsXP he had running on it was no longer supported. Rather than just install Linux on it, instead.

_nalply• 6 years ago

He abandoned his first fully functional laptop to land-fill and bought a new one just because the adaptor died.

Perhaps the laptop-side of the adaptor died?

Normille3• 6 years ago

His writing suggests it was the adaptor itself which died:

  >...the charger started malfunctioning. When informed of the price for a new charger, I was so disgusted with Apple’s sales practices... that I refused to buy it. Instead, I managed to keep the charger working for a few more years... When the charger eventually died entirely in 2005, I decided to look for a new laptop...

solnyshok2• 6 years ago

Replacing a battery of a 5+ year old laptop is a problem that I cannot consistently solve. I learned to navigate e-bay/amazon and find reasonably priced official batteries, but even those may come degraded, because they loose capacity even while stored at warehouse. I would love to find a reliable custom Li battery shop which would make a battery to fit dimensions and maybe even move controller board from old pack to new one -- for laptop batteries, for tablet and phone batteries too.

known• 6 years ago

I always carry https://www.pendrivelinux.com/create-a-larger-than-4gb-caspe...

How and why I stopped buying new laptops

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