PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

by perch56 • 6 years ago

448 189 6 years ago

Molly555• 6 years ago

Well, as far as I know, monstrous things are happening in this country right now. What is the cost of a complete disconnection of the Internet throughout the country? I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars it cost the authorities. I also heard that people are afraid to follow the news through the Telegram channels, because it is simply not safe. https://utopia.fans/tools/clash-of-the-titans-telegram-vs-wh...

SXX• 6 years ago

There was only huge problems with internet for the first few days of protests. Now they only censor specific websites, but internet is more or less working around the country.

wp381640• 6 years ago

Blocking websites thanks to silicon valley network co. Sandvine![0]

They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators

[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusia...

JackPoach• 6 years ago

Monstrous things happen in any country when government wants to make a point of you. Just ask Julian Assange. It's a terrible situation to be in.

trhway3• 6 years ago

Recently even Lukashenko recognized limits of his power against the social media:

In Russian: https://t.me/rt_russian/44353 (translation below is mine, ask Google Translate for the skipped parts and/or for a better translation :)

"... I warned my senior friend and brother Putin - it is impossible to fight against.

Why? - How are you going to fight Telegram channels? Do you have a capability to block the channels? Nobody has such capability, even the ones who created all that web. Americans. You see what is happening there. And telegram-channels are playing the main role there too. [...skip...]

To remove the Internet and like that ... Even if Internet is removed today, the telegram-channels will be working from Poland. So, don't you get relaxed. You also have some specific political events coming, and may be right out of the blue..."

bmmayer1• 6 years ago

Whereas this is monstrous, one has to ask if PandaDoc leadership is acting recklessly by criticizing a foreign dictatorship from afar, while their employees and assets are still at risk. At least Bill Browder had the foresight to get most of his employees (and his money) out of Russia before he started going after Putin...and yet Magnitsky still paid the ultimate price. This is a dangerous game that they're playing and I really hope for the safety of the PandaDoc team.

Edit: Updated to reflect that company was founded in Minsk and later relocated to SV. Still dangerous.

ceejayoz• 6 years ago

Yikes.

agustif• 6 years ago

PandaDoc was founded in Minsk, belarus, so not so much foreigners I guess?

... In 2012 company was founded by Mikita Mikado and Sergey Barysiuk in Minsk, Belarus. In 2014 company headquarters were moved to the Silicon Valley...

lmz• 6 years ago

Isn't that even worse? Foreigners may be naive, but as natives they should know what the regime may do.

mattdeboard2• 6 years ago

I'd suggest that no one has to ask if PandaDoc's leadership is acting recklessly by speaking. Because the alternative is complicity. It is absolutely dangerous to speak, though, you're right about that. The danger exists regardless of whether their leadership speaks. The difference is timing.

Yes, it is dangerous. But the party making it unsafe is the fascists. Outrage should be directed there.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-nie...

alehul• 6 years ago

It is absolutely dangerous to speak

Dangerous for who, though?

It was the founders who were supposedly acting against the Belarusian government, and the employees who are paying the price. The founders are safe in San Francisco.

My outrage is certainly directed at Lukashenko, but the commenter above us may have a point about whether it was responsible to be acting against a dictator while your employees are subject to his government. It's a tough situation.

sassypotato• 6 years ago

What fascists?

zerr• 6 years ago

When we see that nations are hostages of their criminal governments - what real mechanisms are there for helping those nations? e.g. what would be the outcome of targeting specifically Lukashenko, Putin, Kim Jong-un along with their inner circles respectively?

mola• 6 years ago

Usually(last 50y) US and EU would initiate sanctions, if it doesn't collide too greatly with their own interests, that would put pressure on respective government by putting their economy in peril. Lately US has stepped down from that role, and openly started diplomatic hostilities towards the EU. EU isn't powerful enough alone, plus they deal with their own economic and social issues which make them not stable enough to afford sanctions.

merpnderp3• 6 years ago

I'm not sure how the US has stepped down from that role: https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanc...

And if you mean "diplomatic hostiles" in that the US is angry at the EU for not cooperating with the sanction process against targeted countries or meeting their military obligations so that they qualify to vote in international politics, then I guess you're right.

dalbasal6• 6 years ago

Trade concerns are not really a huge issue with Belarus. This isn't Russia, or even Iran. Pipelines would be the main issue.

I disagree about why the EU isn't a major player in this. Economically, and even militarily the EU is quite powerful. In terms of political stability, the EU is on par (or perhaps even better, at this particular moment) than the US. Certainly more stable than Russia.

The issue is that the EU does not see itself as a polity, in this sense. I do think it's starting though.

A big problem is that it's hard to be effective. Sanctions rarely work.

kiliancs• 6 years ago

One aspect that I find often overlooked is that when countries or agents within countries decide to take this sort of action, they have already factored in this sort of international response, which makes it obvious that these are not enough.

dandare• 6 years ago

First you must define what you mean by "nations are hostages of their criminal governments". Only very few countries are considered "full democracy", with some other considered "flawed democracy", but the majority can be said are worse or better dictatorships.

kspacewalk2• 6 years ago

Democracy Index compiled by the Economist[0] places 76 countries into the 'democracies' pile, a further 23 into 'hybrid regimes' pile, and the other 68 are autocracies of various types, with Belarus at #150 of 167 on the list.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:De...

SpicyLemonZest5• 6 years ago

They can be targeted with economic sanctions, as Lukashenko and many of his government officials have been. If they're willing to pay the cost of the sanctions... that's pretty much the extent of the options, as long as their wrongdoing stays within their borders. The principle of sovereignty ultimately means a government doesn't have to be a free democracy if it doesn't want to.

dalbasal6• 6 years ago

Depends on who/what you mean.

As an ordinary person, solidarity is important. It may seem wishy washy, but history has shown many times that solidarity can matter. If we could replicate the same solidarity European cities saw in support of the George Floyd protests, it would put some wind behind Belarusian democrats.

In terms of government/official action... I think the priority should be to discourage Russian intervention with any diplomatic clout available. The UK and France are in the most important position, IMO. France primarily, as a member of the EU which borders Belarus.

Vladimir Putin recently wrote an article about the importance of the Security council. To put this in his own (kinda) words, Russian security intervention on behalf of Lukashenko is entirely not acceptable to three council members. In the interest of world peace, keep your troops inside your own borders.

That is not to say Russia should be treated as an enemy. They are a party, and their concerns need to be heard too.

Ideally, Russia and the EU (not NATO, imo) should negotiate a framework for peaceful transition.

newbelarus2• 6 years ago

Hi Folks,

We ran the Belarus' post-election survey. Over 10,000+ respondents.

Here are the results:

- Результат опроса «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://surveymonkey.com/results/SM-W9PZGD9B7/ - Панель индикаторов «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-RKSGN36D/

Here are the results for pre-election survey:

- «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — начать опрос — https://surveymonkey.com/r/IMBELARUS-5 - Результат опроса «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-VRQR539G7/ - Панель индикаторов «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-VMNFBZ3D/

newbelarus2• 6 years ago

Лукашенко Александр - 4,64% - 404 (Lukashenko, 26 years in power)

Тихановская Светлана - 87,68% - 7,639 (Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, removed from the country)

Others:

Дмитриев Андрей - 0,59% - 51

Канопацкая Анна - 0,25% - 22

Черечень Сергей - 0,38% - 33

Etc:

Против всех - 2,80% - 244

Предпочитаю не говорить - 3,66% - 319

_fat_santa• 6 years ago

My last gig we hired a team out of Minsk to help us with a project, brought them over to our US headquarters for about a month to help with planning and buildout.

When coronavirus took hold I got laid off and the team was cut loose. Not sure how they are holding up over there but damn I hope they are alright.

And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger.

MuffinFlavored2• 6 years ago

And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger.

This kind of low-effort comment belongs on Reddit, not HackerNews. It's not insightful/up to the standards of typical content for this community.

westmeal• 6 years ago

Is your comment insightful?

jdennah• 6 years ago

imprisoned HR, I'd just let that one run its course.

hippich7• 6 years ago

A few facts about these events:

- Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org

- A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propaganda media.

- While police is involved in some cases, the bulk of arrests, beating, torture is done by special forces where most of them wear full head covering at all times. In the few episodes when such head covering is removed during the altercation, these enforces were running away hiding their faces with hands 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zspZj5wPtaQ ; 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5cV8Dl7jA

- Often, special forces use plain clothes and act like criminals. The only suggestion that they are law enforcement - they often have a baton and full head covering. They never tell you their names, departments, etc.

- Last Sunday Belarus saw its first business glass door shattered as a result of protests (protests started on Aug 9th). That door was broken by special forces because some protesters tried to hide from beating there. People donated to the business owner to buy a new door and were standing in the line next day to buy a coffee from that place - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3I8dxAwybE

- To avoid beating by special forces, some running away protesters had to jump into the river. Water is quite cold. They were saved by the rescue team worked on the river, who brought them to the other bank of it. As a result, the whole rescue team was arrested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqA3deW_-Yg

There is a lot more going on, just wanted to share a few things to explain the atmosphere of it.

brundolf• 6 years ago

[deleted]

some_random2• 6 years ago

Please don't compare protests like this, it never looks good.

formerly_proven3• 6 years ago

Possibly heading for a civil war stoked by the country's president in both cases (one trying to paint his trickster self as a man of law and order, one trying to hold on to power after yet-another mock election). Though the parts of the protests we get to see from Belarus look far more civilized than the pictures coming in from the US.

exo762• 6 years ago

Protests in Belarus are way more civilized than recent protests in both Portland and the rest of USA. The difference is stark, shocking, and puzzling.

slezyr• 6 years ago

Last Sunday Belarus saw its first business glass door shattered as a result of protests

https://news.tut.by/society/699561.html

That glass door was broken by the chief of the narcotics and organized crime unit.

pjc503• 6 years ago

Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org

Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but elections nearly always have a place for volunteers to watch the count somehow.

411111111111111• 6 years ago

And potentially making you a liability to unscrupulous dictators is smart?

It's either pointless because nobody wants to fake results or you're another obstacle to remove.

hippich7• 6 years ago

there were a lot of people who wanted to observe polls. many of them were arrested for "disrupting voting process", or were pushed all the way out of the polling place. Independent observer had to use a chairs and binoculars to try to see anything. Seriously.

https://gdb.currenttime.tv/180604A0-D026-4424-8214-7E00D4B60...

maltalex• 6 years ago

While I generally agree, I'd like to point out the fact that observing the elections in a western democracy is nothing like observing the elections in a country like Belarus where the president has been in power since 1994.

The elections in Belarus can hardly be called that. There really isn't that much to observe besides the obvious. No number of observers could have changed the results.

ajuc• 6 years ago

You will disappear if you try to do sth like that in Belarus or Russia.

crististm• 6 years ago

So, it's that simple, isn't it?

There is a reason that the word 'clandestine' exists. Opposing the government in the open works only when the government is not yet a dead zombie corpse.

minipci1321• 6 years ago

Didn't seem to have helped much in Belarus. OSCE/ODIHR were present since 2001 (at least), noted some things, and here we are:

https://www.statista.com/chart/22512/belarus-presidential-el...

Then they were absent this year, and the official result was the exact same 80%.

dalbasal6• 6 years ago

This is tangential..

As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people.

Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial relative to their "vital concern" of having a buffer between them and "The West."

I'm not saying that we can or should escalate recklessly vis-a-vis Russia. I am saying that they are our neighbors too, not just Russia's. We have our interests too, and more importantly our solidarity. The Lukashenko regime is anachronistic, brutal and failed.

This is not a foreign affair.

I understand and even sympathize with Putin's concerns on encroachment. He lays them out clearly enough. I will also admit that mistakes have been made, and the the US played its hand too aggressively in the 1990s. I also think that the EU (and NATO, if the US is willing) should negotiate a peace treaty that addresses these. I also genuinely believe this is possible.

For that to happen though, we need to take a much firmer stance. We need to be as interested in our neighbors as Russia is. The whole premise of the EU is peace and sovereignty. Those values need to be represented here.

Ukraine was abused because of their desire to join the EU, and we treated it as above our paygrade. Now, Russia is openly propping up Lukashenko. Next year it will be Lithuania, Estonia. Putin might decide to intervene on behalf of Victor Orban. We're in this one way or another.

qaq• 6 years ago

"Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well

nur0n• 6 years ago

Vice made a mind-blowing series on this if anyone wants to see with their own eyes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt...

YarickR22• 6 years ago

"Russia bad" western propaganda does it's job even better

odshoifsdhfs3• 6 years ago

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones.

source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing)

edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't also like 100% are opposed to him)

kazagistar3• 6 years ago

I'm still not even sure what Russian values even means.

dalbasal6• 6 years ago

Conflicts with what I've heard from Belarusians, but possibly a bias based on where those guys live (here in Ireland).

That said, I don't think it really matters what how the average Belarusian sees it. Russia (specifically Putin, and probably many of his generation) sees a democratic revolution as 1989 stuff, and as a weakening of their "buffer."

Nothing is ever 100% but I think it's likely that most want Lukashenko gone. We can't know for sure without a free election. That's the point.

As I said, I do think mistakes were made in the past. Ukraine's simultaneous moves towards NATO and the EU were a bad idea, for world peace. That did not justify Russian intervention though, and it does not justify it now. It may even be for the best if the US stays at arms length. The EU, imo, should not. This concerns our interests and security just as much as it concerns Russia's.

helge9210• 6 years ago

Russia-Ukraine war and Crimean occupation

Here, fixed that for you.

allendoerfer• 6 years ago

Several international audits and inspections by EY and other reputable companies over the last years prove that the company adhered to all regulations and laws prevalent in Belarus.

I don't want to take away from the point of the article, but this made me chuckle.

Are we talking about the same "reputable" EY that has been auditing Wirecard for years and years while a giant scam reported on by the Financial Times was happening right in front of their eyes? They might not be held accountable financially, but I think we can and should stop calling them reputable.

atlasunshrugged• 6 years ago

This is a bit off topic but since there are likely some people in this thread familiar with the happenings in Belarus, does anyone know what's happening with Vitali Shkliarov? I know he was arrested a while back and his lawyer has made some public statements but I haven't seen much about him recently

mensetmanusman2• 6 years ago

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice.

If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war.

This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to weapons. (The U.S. couldn’t even control Afghan farmers with guns...)

perfunctory• 6 years ago

Major changes sometimes involve civil war, not usually. Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

Kinrany• 6 years ago

Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones.

Countries that are already mostly democratic don't need violent rebellions?

diego_moita6• 6 years ago

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice.

No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite:

1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s.

3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Philippines, Pakistan).

4) Nigeria, Spain, Greece

These were achieved through pacific means. The cases of dictatorships that became democracies through violence are very few: Portugal, Romania...

Prior history of violent conflict is precisely what led to dictatorships hardening (leftist guerrilla groups in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, tentative coup in Indonesia, etc.)

Also, violent reaction against dictatorships quite often leads to other dictatorships (e.g.: Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran).

Edit: again, my point is that violent reaction against oppressive regimes is foolish and leads to the opposite of freedom. Violence is the authoritarians' favorite game because it provides them an excuse to do what they do best: brutal repression. You are already loosing when you play their preferred game.

Const-me• 6 years ago

Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars 130000 dead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution 1000 dead

trhway3• 6 years ago

1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

"The Dirty War (Spanish: Guerra sucia) is the name used by the military junta or civic-military dictatorship of Argentina (Spanish: dictadura cívico-militar de Argentina) for the period of United States-backed state terrorism[1][2][3] in Argentina[4][5] from 1976 to 1983 as a part of Operation Condor, during which military and security forces and right-wing death squads in the form of the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (AAA, or Triple A)[6] hunted down any political dissidents and anyone believed to be associated with socialism, left-wing Peronism or the Montoneros movement.[7][8][9][10]

Up to 30,000 people disappeared, of whom many were impossible to report formally due to the nature of state terrorism."

walshemj2• 6 years ago

The carnation revolution Portugal was not violent have you got those revolutions switched

HeadsUpHigh• 6 years ago

The fall of the( USA supported) fascist regime in Greece was not in fact bloodless.

vvpan2• 6 years ago

I think this is a very disputable point. I've seen studies supporting both. For example here is study attesting to the opposite of your point: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-s...

Taek4• 6 years ago

A key point that people often miss is that an armed population is extremely difficult to control even if the oppressor has vastly superior equipment and training. The citizenry has the advantage of living there all the time, of being able to hide in the buildings (their own homes), of overwhelming numbers, and of the fact that short of full genocide the oppressor actually needs some compliance from the oppressed to achieve their objectives.

Logistically, it is an absolute nightmare to invade a city of 25% armed and trained citizens versus invading a city that is 1% armed and trained citizens. Access to drones and missiles and tanks doesn't help nearly as much as many people would believe.

mensetmanusman2• 6 years ago

America will never be invaded (never being heat death of sun), it could only devolve into civil war if education levels get low enough...

maerF0x05• 6 years ago

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression.

* General education (ideally, not state mandated)

* General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training)

* Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) *

*Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate our vote was both counted and correct after the fact. There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation.

guyomes• 6 years ago

we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones)

Experts in electronic voting systems are discouraging the use of this technology for high stake elections, even with state-of-the-art schemes: https://www.belenios.org/faq.html

maerF0x05• 6 years ago

Right, by "pushing for" I mean we should be taking the academic discussion into the engineering realm to make it a reality. AFAIK there is no existing off the shelf product that satisfies the requirements.

One example that is working on such a thing is: https://voting.works/

csomar2• 6 years ago

I don't think the problem with Belarus is the lack of these but rather of external forces. Russia thinks that Belarus belongs to its control; and a democratic system will most certainly be US-friendly.

This is hardly a citizen revolt against dictatorship and is one of the several proxy-war these two guys (US/Russia) are playing worldwide.

Taek4• 6 years ago

It's a lot harder to kidnap citizens when they are armed and surrounded by other armed citizens, especially if all of those citizens have substantial firearms training.

I endorse bringing guns to peaceful protests in a state where unmarked officials are kidnapping people in broad daylight. That is exactly the sort of reason that the right to bear arms is planted deep within our constitutional rights.

hippich7• 6 years ago

It is true that Russia has a lot of control over Belarus, but it is revolt against dictator. There is no talks about ceasing partnership with Russia simply because the country is too relying on Russia's market. The idea that people want to get rid of dictator to get away from the Russia is what is pushed by Belarus state propaganda media precisely to push Russia to support dictator.

gruez• 6 years ago

* General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training)

The first two are relatively non-controversial, but also won't do much against security forces with tear gas and rubber bullets. I suspect the last would be controversial in the US as gun control/ownership is a very polarized issue.

Taek4• 6 years ago

Martial arts goes a lot further than I think most people realize. You gain pain tolerance, bodily self control, and a greatly increased awareness of your vitals and physical limits.

In the protests where you see people covering tear gas canisters with cones or hurling them back, more likely than not those are martial artists or other athletes who train regularly. Your ability to act decisively and correctly in a scary environment greatly improves.

bonzini2• 6 years ago

There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation.

Are they safe against "rubber hose cryptanalysis"? Such as forcing you to verify your vote while I can see you?

mindslight• 6 years ago

No cryptographic system can be resistant to this by itself, but the attack can be trivially defeated by keeping the existing concept of polling stations and having people cast their cryptographically-verifiable votes there.

runarberg4• 6 years ago

I’m not an expert, but couldn’t you keep a link between your public key and your vote while the election is open. Allow subsequent votes that will nullify votes associated with your public key. And when the polls close, this link gets deleted.

This way you can be intimidated to vote and verify a certain way, then after your intimidator leaves you alone, you simply cast another vote. And after the deadline passes any record that you personally casted a ballot have been erased.

Maybe as a further safeguard keep traditional in-person polling open, wherein showing up to you automatically nullify you previous crypto vote, and only your paper ballot counts.

dshpala• 6 years ago

I think that protesters didn't think it through enough. Yes, Lukashenko is an awful guy, but what is the alternative?

Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.

formerly_proven3• 6 years ago

Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.

If the protesters said they're against Russian influence, they'd be shot down hard by the Russians (with Lukashenka's assent, obviously) to preserve Belarus as a buffer zone towards the West. If they are pro-Russian / pro-status-quo as far as foreign affairs are concerned, there is at least a (slim) possibility of Putin not keeping Lukashenka in office by any means. But considering previous Russian engagements, it seems extremely unlikely Putin will allow anything other than what he'd consider "stable authoritarianism", because the foreign attachments of a democracy (even a bad one) would be too fluent and thus too risky for him.

roywiggins• 6 years ago

Before all this Putin was making noises about integrating the two countries anyway:

Moscow offered Minsk economic benefits in December if it complied with a 1999 deal that envisioned a union state with a common currency, legal system and a joint defense and foreign policy.
The Russian-Belarussian economic confederacy entails the creation of a single tax code, civil code and list of foreign trade rules, in addition to unified oil, gas and electricity market regulators, by 2022, Kommersant reported Monday.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/16/russia-belarus-to-...

vvpan2• 6 years ago

The protest is driven by naitonalism. They symbol of the movement is the a flag that thoroughly separate Belarus from the soviet past and Russia. Anti-Russia is built into the movement.

playing_colours• 6 years ago

The protesters look to me as against Russian interference, propaganda, and the perspectives to become a Russian province. The protesters are not against common Russian people and culture,they are for being good neighbours. It's reasonable, that the more Russia interferes and helps Lukashenko - the more negative the attitude of Belarusian becomes.

openasocket2• 6 years ago

I'm sure there's a couple people reading about this and other events in Belarus and wondering why Russia is so involved with Belarus like this. I thought I'd add a little bit on context. Like Ukraine, Belarus serves as a buffer between NATO and Russia, and was once a part of the Soviet Union. But Belarus is especially important to Russia because of Kaliningrad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad . It's a part of Russia that is completely separate from the rest of the country, on the Baltic Sea wedged between Poland and Lithuania. Kaliningrad is heavily militarized, and in any NATO-Russian conflict Kaliningrad would play a vital role. And the country of Belarus is directly between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia. Any Russian war plan would hinge on being able to move troops through Belarus. I would expect Russia to pull out all the stops to defend their interests here

EDIT: sorry, Belarus does not directly connect to Kaliningrad, there is a gap of about 50 miles with Lithuania and Poland on either side. But the general point still stands

ORioN63• 6 years ago

I just want to clarify Belarus does _not_ border Kalinigrad. You'd either have to pass Lithuania or Poland.

If that happens, the Baltic states should be worried.

In my opinion, it won't though. It's neither a threat nor a direct strategic advantage. It won't connect Kalinigrad. Belarus is landlocked. The population did not and is not asking for Russia assistance in any way, only Lukashenka did. While not super friendly, they're friendlier than to the EU bloc. I think it's just not worth the trouble and an eventual net-loss.

Unless, they have bigger plans, of course.

heavenlyblue2• 6 years ago

I've thought your general point was based on the fact that they were connected?

openasocket2• 6 years ago

In an a NATO-Russian conflict, having free movement of Russian troops through Belarus means you only have a 50 mile gap to fight through to link up with Kaliningrad, as opposed to over 300 miles directly from the rest of Russia. At 50 miles Kaliningrad and Russian forces fighting from Belarus could have overlapping SAM cover and MLRS artillery support, it's well within the combat radius of attack helicopters, etc. And there are railway lines around that corridor that, once seized, would enable efficient transport of material.

sabujp• 6 years ago

video of what's going on in belarus : https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ip14z2/bela...

trurl123• 6 years ago

What's happened with hn? I don't want to read about politics here.

homakov• 6 years ago

Do not have business with any company that pays taxes in Belarus. We must deprive Lukashenko of money. Many IT companies are attracted to Minsk because of the low cost and here we are.

PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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