Ask HN: I'm an unemployed programmer in SF that will work for minimum wage

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2292916

by unemployedinSF • 15 years ago

127 135 15 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Live in San Francisco

B.S. Computer Science

Have used java, python, flex, html5 canvas, javascript, and css on various webapp projects

No 'real' job experience

Unemployed for 6 years trying to do a startup (yes 2005, when I just graduated and read my first PG essay)

Will work for minimum wage, or free if the work is interesting and may lead to a job

Will do any work, even if not programming related

Will accept any length term: internship, contract, contract to hire, full time, etc

Hey HN. After 6 years of trying to do a startup with no success, I'm close to giving up. I've been rejected from ycombinator (twice), various startup conferences (launch, etc), and even angellist. I have no connections to investors and have had no success trying to get introductions.

I've recently tried to apply for programming jobs in SF, but had trouble because of my complete lack of work experience. All my software engineer friends in SF are making $100k+ and telling me how hot the market is. I can't even get a minimum wage job flipping burgers at In N Out or bagging groceries at safeway because they have dozens of applications for each opening and my long period of unemployment looks bad.

Is there any possibility for me to make a fresh start? Will anyone take a chance on hiring me? Do you have any advice for me?

Your comments are appreciated!

edit: added email contact in HN profile

edit2: for all those asking for code samples, I implemented the reddit is hiring backend challenge in python (http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/fjgit/reddit_is_doubling_the_size_of_its_programming/). they said not to release the code publicly until after march, but if you send me an email I can show you privately.

mindcrime• 15 years ago

F!%# bro, that sucks. If I had a job to offer, I'd try to help, but I'm in the middle of the bootstrapped, funded-by-my-dayjob model myself, so I have no money to employ anybody. All I can offer is my best wishes and encouragement. The HN community is really awesome, so I'd bet there's a good chance somebody here can help you out. Keep your head up, things will get better!

Oh, and if you've worked on anything open-source, or you have any code you can open, make sure you put it up on GitHub so you can show it off. Code talks and bullshit walks, as they say.

evo_9• 15 years ago

Post some examples of your work. If you don't have anything then create a project to showcase your skills. That's where I'd start if I were in your shoes and it will generate interest if you have solid skills.

russell• 15 years ago

Forget free. It's illegal, even fro interns, where you produce value for the company. I would consider it unethical for me to hire you for minimum wage, cheap is OK. You are in an oddball situation, so HR types wont pass your resume on. Forget BofA. Startups probably cant take the chance. However, there are usually a few companies on that advertise entry level. Non-profits are also a possibility, because they cant pay so well.

Your post is a good bet, so I upvoted it.

EDIT: I checked your profile. You dont have contact info. A job cant find you.

anywho• 15 years ago

free = volunteer :) is volunteer work illegal?

sean12345• 15 years ago

I think the idea is volunteer work at a for profit company.

trotsky• 15 years ago

I'm not aware of it being illegal per-se, ie criminal. But there is some rather strong evidence that volunteers for a for profit company, if treated like an employee (time cards, minimum work hours, training, etc.) would probably be able to successfully sue for back wages and penalties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_Community_Leader_Program

In February 2010, the United States for the Southern District of New York gave preliminary approval to a settlement between AOL and the Community Leaders totaling 15 million dollars. Final approval was granted in May 2010.

(Good luck to the OP, I know that situation can be rough)

rhizome2• 15 years ago

It's basically a PITA for corporate taxes for a company to accept free work that contributes to their bottom line, as well as the AOL case noted elsewhere.

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

thanks I forgot about that. updated my hn profile with an email

bdclimber14• 15 years ago

Free isn't exactly illegal. Theres a set of criteria for an employee (aka intern) to be able to work for free. The biggest criteria is that the work can't directly have an impact on revenue, e.g. no free sales positions.

danshapiro2• 15 years ago

"Volunteering" at a for-profit company is indeed against the law, in that it violates minimum wage laws. There is an exception as noted earlier for training positions, but real work generally doesn't qualify.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html

petervandijck• 15 years ago

Do you have a site where you showcase your skills?

ryanwaggoner2• 15 years ago

Can you write code and actually get things done? Do you have examples of your work that look good? If so, get some freelance work. Charge $50 - 75 / hr and find work by responding to people posting Craigslist computer gigs.

If not, then find some way to survive for a couple months and build some simple projects. Like, really simple. Hell, just setup some wordpress sites with good-looking themes from Woothemes or Themeforest. Having 2 or 3 of those will satisfy 95% of people looking for really simple code-monkey work on CL. You won't get rich, but you can build up your list of clients in 6 months. Then you can either keep freelancing or roll that into a fulltime job ("I've been doing contract work for the last year...here are some example projects and client references.")

Sargis• 15 years ago

Is it really that easy to charge $50-75/hr without being recognized as a decent developer?

wsc• 15 years ago

Yes.

tansey4• 15 years ago

$50/hr is VERY cheap. A decent developer in the Bay Area really should be charging at least $100/hr-- otherwise, they can just get a job and make more with less risk. Seriously good developers can charge upwards of $300.

emilam• 15 years ago

I've been paid $100/hr with no proof of experience or that I could finish the project.

byrneseyeview2• 15 years ago

Is it really easy to be recognized as a decent developer without charging at least $50-$75/hr?

ryanwaggoner2• 15 years ago

For certain skillsets (including some that the OP lists), charging less than $100 / hr should probably include some justification or people will just assume you're not any good because you're charging too little.

slay2k2• 15 years ago

Generalizing ryan's logic further:

"Can you write code and actually get things done? Do you have examples of your work that look good?"

If the answer's yes, freelancing is now just one of many options available to you.

oniTony• 15 years ago

To be fair, $100k+ SDE positions and burger-flipping positions are in completely separate markets.

If you were working on a startup, then you were "self-employed", not "unemployed". Market yourself as such. And as others have already mentioned -- if you can't point at jobs held, then point at code/projects that you wrote. Some startups would rather look at your GitHub profile than a CV.

sokoloff• 15 years ago

Ditto what mindcrime said about posting examples of your work/abilities if you can.

I'm starting a company 4/2 after my last day of full-time work on 4/1, and while I wasn't planning on hiring anyone right away, I do have a fair bit more work that needs doing than I can personally do, so I will be hiring contractors for some of it and if you're a fit, would consider hiring you remotely, assuming your skills matched up and you could handle working remotely (not everyone can).

I suspect you'll find a better offer on HN anyway, but if not, reach out to me with some details mid-month,

OstiaAntica• 15 years ago

What was the startup? You should be able to make an interesting pitch to other companies in the same field. You can present the idea, and what you accomplished-- it may be that a company in the same space would hire you and even buy your code.

softbuilder• 15 years ago

I'm convinced you're unemployed. Now convince me you're a programmer. You have a CS degree, but that doesn't make you a programmer. What makes you a programmer?

jedsmith• 15 years ago

Change of venue, maybe? Perhaps widen your net? I think San Francisco is your problem here.

A four-year degree is a solid leg in for a lot of backwards HR departments (isn't it? everybody telling me to finish mine seems to think so), so I'm surprised you're having difficulty. A bachelor's should at least get you into support somewhere, and you can start there. This makes me think that everybody who can operate a command line has descended upon San Francisco for the startup culture, and there's a saturation there. That wouldn't surprise me at all.

Last time I was there it was to visit my sister and do nothing computer-related, so I might be wrong.

aphyr2• 15 years ago

Weirdly, everyone I've met in SF is hiring. They're also all complaining that they can't find anyone who fits the job. Maybe it's just high standards?

hello_moto• 15 years ago

Have you experienced their weird interview?

I bet it started off like this:

"We're using memcached. Ever heard of it?"

A: "Yes. I've heard about it" [but never use it]

"Ok, since we used it for internet scale, the standard memcached isn't good enough for us. So tell me, how would you improve memcached for internet scale?"

A: "Umm..."

Real story.

[The answer is to switch memcached from TCP to UDP implementation, but then you need to know first how memcached work internally and probably intimately]

The problem is that most of these companies ask specific questions regarding the weird libraries or esoteric programming languages that they specifically use to solve a very specific problems.

Might as well go and hire the contributors of those libraries/languages really.

nowarninglabel• 15 years ago

Have to agree here, I just got done hiring a bunch of student assistants, then got hired myself at a new job at a company that is hiring another dozen people over the next year. Every month at our SF Drupal User Groups, there are usually around half a dozen people hiring. No esoteric programming skills needed for any of this, just some work in FOSS, especially on Drupal, could easily land you a job. Not to mention I just had two students graduate who both got good jobs, one at Sybase.

dstein• 15 years ago

I'm not in SF but from what I can see, the programming job market is only good these days for "rockstars" willing to work for entry-level salaries. There aren't very many good, high-paying programming jobs these days. Everything is entry level and low pay. This is why I think there are so many startups -- the qualified people are exiting the job market en masse.

aphyr2• 15 years ago

Where's your github profile? Personal site with demos? Projects you contributed to? Anything counts, man! Even toy projects you built in a weekend just for fun, if they show your ability to reason about a problem.

xentronium• 15 years ago

This.

Also, FOSS is a big deal. Got spare time? Do FOSS, more FOSS, more FOSS. From my personal and anecdotal experience, after your first job it's gonna be so much easier, if you manage to deliver and make some connections, and participating in open-source projects will make you a better programmer and hopefully help you land a job.

Homunculiheaded• 15 years ago

In a recent job search I've found a github profile full of interesting projects to attract far more attention than job history and education. From my perspective employers really do seem to have a problem finding people that can actually write code and solve problems. A github page (or website with demos) just makes it so much easier for interested potential employers to quickly get a sense of your style and skill level. In design, architecture and other similar fields a portfolio is standard, it's actually somewhat surprising that this hasn't taken over in software.

SwellJoe• 15 years ago

I only hire people with work I can see in Open Source projects.

It's just not worth my time to try to sort through the people who claim skills that don't actually have them, particularly for contract work that is short-term. I might be willing to go through a long interview process for a full-time employee that I expect to invest significant time and money in, but for contracts? It's just not worth my time. I can look at someone's github, SF.net, CPAN modules, Drupal modules, etc. and know within minutes if they're worth working with. Why would I bother with someone that doesn't have anything to show?

Mz2• 15 years ago

I was a homemaker for about 2 decades. And sick as hell while job hunting. It took a while but I eventually got a job. It started at about half the wage that GIS jobs I was applying for started at. It has nothing to do with anything I want to do or any of my background education.

A) If you haven't already, pick up "What color is your parachute?".

B) Work on your resume. It shouldn't say 'unemployed for 6 years'. Mine did not say "unemployed for about 2 decades". Mine listed my education and I told employers that I was a "homemaker and homeschooling mom going through a divorce".

C) Whatever your buggaboo, stop harping on it. Mine was my health. I talked incessantly about my health crisis because I felt I needed to be "up front" and because it was uppermost in my mind...yadda yadda. The very first interview where I did not mention my health issue was the job I got.

I applied to a large company and got a phone call "According to your resume, you qualify for the following three jobs: blah blah morning shift, blah blah evening shift, blah blah evening shift." I knew I was too sick to work morning shift. I replied 'Put me down for the two evening shift jobs.'. I went in for additional testing. Afterwards, I was told "You still qualify for both jobs. Which would you like?" I said "I have no clue what either of these jobs really entails. I've been a homemaker forever..." and we chatted a bit about it. I think a contributing factor to the decision was one of them started two weeks earlier than the other, and that was what I went with.

I still have that job. I feel underemployed and so forth. But it has allowed me to keep a roof over my head, work on my health issues, get through my divorce and start my life over. In the aggregate: It's all good.

Good luck with this.

keeptrying2• 15 years ago

You really should write a book. I think anyone who has done something like this should write a book. Authentic stories of determination and persistence usually do well as books, movies and motivational speaking gigs. You'll need a good editor and publisher of course but I think it's worth a shot ...

Mz2• 15 years ago

That sentiment seems to be the general consensus. I've heard it repeatedly over the years, about various aspects of my life. But I am acquainted with a woman who wrote a book about her life and the publisher turned her down. It sounded too fantastical and they had recently been burned by someone else whose fantastical life story turned out to be all made up. I also get that kind of reaction a lot: That I am a liar, a teller of tall tales, etc. People frequently think I must be, at the very least, exaggerating. (The truth is, I do a lot of downplaying to try to minimize social problems.)

So it is unlikely that a traditional publisher will ever publish my life's story -- unless I get famous for something else first and publishers begin coming to me. I have found that it really doesn't work to try to 'sell' myself. When I go to them, people just think I'm full of crap and trying too hard. It works far better for me to wait for other people to discover me.

At work, I remain in that same entry level job -- a job that some folks have gotten right out of high school at the age of 18. (I have about 5 or 6 years of college, some of it the equivalent of graduate level work and lots of people hired after me have been promoted.) There are people in the department I work in that know I am bright. And I have submitted suggestions, proposals, etc. It goes nowhere, in spite of sometimes being initially met with enthusiasm. No one seems able to believe that some loser who can't get promoted out of an entry level job could possibly have meaningful solutions to systemic departmental problems (which is generally the scale I think on). And recently when someone did take a proposal of mine seriously, the implementation ended up bearing no real resemblance to what I was trying to accomplish. It ended up repeating the same systemic sins I was trying to redress. I take this as a hint that corporate America and me don't really mix that well. I'm disgusted and if I came into enough money say, this week/month, I think I would promptly quit my job and begin walking across the US. (Edit: The job I have seems to have a high-ish wash-out rate and I have kept it while recovering from being very ill. So I don't feel like a personal failure. I just feel like I have no real future at the company -- at least not one commensurate with my abilities.)

Which is to say "It's not like I haven't tried to go the traditional/conventional route." But it doesn't work for me. Most likely, I will need to go off and do something on my own. Winning over an audience single-handedly will probably be less challenging than winning over The Powers that Be in some existing bureaucracy (whether at a publishing house or at my place of employment).

But thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. :)

glenra• 15 years ago

In 2000 I was unemployed for a bit in the Bay Area and wanted to take a short break from techie stuff. Looking for interesting work I browsed the craigslist job boards, specifically the "ETC" and "part time" sections. You never know what you'll find there - I ended up working as an "extra" in the Matrix sequels. beaubonneaucasting needed people to drive in the background on a fake freeway in Alameda while cars were crashing/exploding/chasing each other. Paid about a hundred dollars a day, gave me some great stories and experiences to talk about at parties or in interviews, got me some random followup jobs...and now my Bacon Number is 2 and I have a good start on an entirely separate "performer" resume in addition to my techie one.

Having something recent - anything - on your resume is a big improvement on having nothing; having something "cool" that you enjoy talking about is better still. So I'd try that - think about your hobby interests and cast a really wide net to find things you wouldn't otherwise have considered. And use Craigslist.

magic5227• 15 years ago

Email me please if you'd be interested in Box.

adunn[at]box.net

greattypo• 15 years ago

Is it just me, or are you Box.net employees the only ones who call it "Box"?

espeed• 15 years ago

Contact me -- my info is in my profile.

rdouble3• 15 years ago

Move to NYC. The companies there are desperate and will hire anyone.

jjm2• 15 years ago

He probably doesn't have enough to move.

Perhaps a proper recommendation would be "apply for jobs in NYC. The word is they're quite desperate for competent developers".

rhizome2• 15 years ago

I've thought about going bicoastal with short-timers in NYC while maintaining my (thankfully rent-controlled) apt in SF, where is a good place to look for startup-y NYC gigs?

clark-kent• 15 years ago

I am in NYC, I would like to know who is hiring?

ibejoeb• 15 years ago

If you're looking, email me. I make software for banks.

zedshaw2• 15 years ago

That's probably the best description about why I left NYC.

atlantic• 15 years ago

Looking at the way you describe yourself, a big problem is that the description is inconsistent. What are you: an entrepreneur, a project manager, or a developer? If you're a developer, then what is your speciality: architecture, database, middle-tier, UI? You presented a list of technologies, but did not indicate your level of experience in each or how they tie together. It's a laundry list, not a picture of the man behind the qualifications.

You are too self-deprecating about your startup experience. Even if it didn't pan out, you must have learnt a lot, both on the technical and on the business side. You really have to reconnect with your passions and your strengths; if you are aware of your value, it is fairly easy to get the message across to others. What was driving you for so long when working on your startup? What was the vision? That's where your value is.

pnathan• 15 years ago

I have no idea.

But you might try selling your abilities. Can you demonstrate your failed startup's code?

z2amiller• 15 years ago

I don't think 6 years "trying to do a startup" is the same as a complete lack of work experience, unless you spent the entire 6 years trying to raise money and making powerpoint slides. If you did any real programming work during that time, it still counts. I've seen plenty of resumes with "sole proprietor" type jobs. Maybe you don't get a job with a large company, but someone who is versatile and used to doing whatever it takes is perfect for someone else's startup.

I don't think it is wise pitching yourselves to companies who are hiring 100K+ engineers saying you are willing to work for minimum wage. It shows a lack of confidence that you are selling yourself so far under market. Pricing is often a signal for quality. More importantly, the cost of a bad engineering hire is far greater than the salary you're being paid -- a bad engineering hire takes time to get rid of, and often produces negative work output. People end up cleaning up a mess, opportunities are lost while a bad engineer flails at what should be simple code, etc. A bad engineer could work for free and still be a worse value for a company than an engineer making market rate. This is the signal you're sending when working for minimum wage.

karanbhangui• 15 years ago

I'm involved in two companies in the bay area that are hiring Java and Python web programmers respectively. They pay very competitive SV salaries. Contact me (email in profile) and I'll get you started!

gcheong• 15 years ago

1).Go to some meetups and start talking to people. At the last couple python meetups I went to here in SF, several companies announced they were looking for developers. You're more likely to get past HR if you can connect with an employee who can refer you. 2). In the meantime make some iPhone or Android apps and try and sell them and/or do some projects where you can show off your code.

Don't discount the experience you gained trying to do your startup. As others have said, you weren't unemployed but self-employed.

tansey4• 15 years ago

I can't help but feel like HN is getting trolled here. There is simply no way someone who has done a startup and has experience in all the listed technologies cannot find any job in the Bay Area. Spend a couple days at the Hacker Dojo in Mountain View or go to an event like the 500startups one at House of Air last month and you'll meet dozens of people looking for talent.

I'm not just being cynical here-- I have lived in Palo Alto for just under 6 weeks and my RoR skills are subpar at best. Nevertheless I've been offered multiple jobs, co-founder opportunities, etc. And I'm not even that likable. If you're a nice guy, the opportunities are endless!

That being said, on the off chance that this isn't a troll and you don't have any luck with the replies here that are offering assistance: contact me (see my profile for info) and I'll throw some contracting work your way.

gruseom2• 15 years ago

Now here's a comment that restores my faith in HN: well-informed, skeptical, acute... and offers to do the nice thing anyway.

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

I wish I was trolling, but this is the reality of my life. I did apply for one of the investor demo days at Hacker Dojo, but was rejected. I'll admit I am somewhat antisocial, and have not attended any networking events, which is totally my fault.

gruseom2• 15 years ago

As you know, lots of programmers are anti-social, so that's less of a problem than it seems. It may well be easier for you to get a good-paying programming job than a lower-paying normal-person job. If I were you I'd find something interesting to hack on and then talk to other hackers about it. That doesn't require much social skill and is as least as likely to lead to work opportunities as the resume/interview grind.

stcredzero2• 15 years ago

The nice thing about networking in general, is that most people are trying to keep you from losing face. That's as uncomfortable for them as it is for you. This makes networking for someone who is open, considerate, and honest a very safe social activity to engage in. In fact, it's also true that people in networking situations are looking for help. They need something, otherwise, why are they networking?

Just do your best to be a nice person, and look for opportunities to create value for others.

If you have any skill with 2D game animation, I'm looking for some short pieces that have to be done with panache. Send me email at my HN username at gmail dot com, if you are interested.

aDemoUzer• 15 years ago

Investor demo means you are still talking about your startup. The poster meant you go to Hacker Dojo not to pitch your startup but to network and get hired.

From what I can tell, you first need to say to youself, "I am done with my startup, now to get a job." Then your talking should be focused on getting yourself a job. Only look for minimum wage job if you are financially desperate.

Otherwise, spend the time figuring out which start-up to apply for. I graduated last May and it took me 8 months to land my first "real" job. The key component I learned is that out-of-college will have a hard time landing contract or a job at big companies. Your best place to land a job at is a start-up because they are more willing to look over lack of work-experience for having actual skill set. As long as you are good at programming, you will be able to land a job.

I also took a different approach than you. Instead of going directly into start-up, I decided to first work at a start-up and learn how the start-up world works. I realized early on that I am more of the type who likes to learn from others experience, as to avoid making same mistakes and to do things that would actually make my startup successful. For me, learning on-the-job at a startup means figuring out your own way of doing things that work, but it also means you don't get benefit of taking into account how others dealt with the same issue.

On a side not, AppMakr is hiring! http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/web/2230975872.html If you feel you are up for the job, don't be shy to apply/

brackin2• 15 years ago

I know 16 year olds which have been offered jobs at fairly big startups on the spot at events like 500 startups and Launch.

apotheon• 15 years ago

A college graduate who has been jobless for six years is probably pushing thirty. It's harder to get hired with "no" experience at 30 than at 20 (or even younger) a lot of the time, especially for fast-moving "dynamic" technology jobs.

papaf• 15 years ago

I don't think this is a troll at all. I'm long term unemployed and I am having a similar experience. Most companies simply won't see the CVs of the unemployed because agencies won't be sending them on.

Anything such as working on a personal startup or returning to education is seen as non-work and counts against you (I've heard this from several agencies in Europe and a careers advisor).

As it is, things are looking up for me but the situation as described in the question strikes me as being very real. I imagine graduates with no work experience are having a terrible time.

gexla• 15 years ago

Yeah, I don't believe this either. No wonder he couldn't get his startups off the ground. If you can't do well enough to market your own skills as a developer, then no way can you market any other sort of startup (I consider freelance web development to be a startup.)

No work experience? Is that a reflection of how lowly you valued your startups? These are real businesses and you worked for them, right? Isn't this work experience?

In any case, if this is real then you won't have a problem finding work now. Everyone replying to this thread would be willing to throw you work at minimum wage. ;)

MyHNAnon• 15 years ago

I think I am going to echo most of the other commentators.

I am working with a couple of startups and everyone is desparate for talent. I know many that would give a week or two with some small jobs to try you out.

That being said. Get some code samples out somewhere. Post a link to your failed startup. There may be another startup working on a similar or related idea who could integrate parts of your code and give you a job.

It is cool that you have a BS in CompSci but to me that means nothing. I know many people who have one but cant code for shit.

Let us know you can actually code.

Contact me and I will see what I can do to help you out.

jjm2• 15 years ago

I hope that if my startup doesn't take off that I'll be able get back in to a job. Though with 7yrs of actual corp. gig developing I might have a better chance.

Here some cool things you could do (some of which i'll have to do myself):

1.) Put your resume on Google docs NOW. Repost it from here. Make it a living document.

2.) Get a Google sites account. Possibly put up examples of your programming knowledge (essays?). Point your name.com to it if you can, otherwise make sure the site is sites.google.com/yourname

3.) Get a github account. Push your work up (even if it is only examples of your knowledge)

4.) Contribute to FOSS projects, get to know the committers and make contacts.

5.) Check out some freelance sites and as I understand it you could probably undercut a lot of these people. This might be some added experience you'll be able to add to your resume. After several jobs your resume should look a bit better.

6.) Good luck chap! Give me your twitter account so I can follow and RT. :-)

DilipJ4• 15 years ago

ouch. this is why it's dangerous to read a pg essay on entrepreneurship when you're in college. He makes it look easy, and some kids just follow their dreams without building a support base first. Remember that for every guy like pg, there are 9 others just like him who went bankrupt. Coming out of college, you should always try to find a stable, legit job and try to build up a capital base. Get paid by someone else and develop a level of professional competency, build up your credit score and take out a loan and do something on the side, and only go solo once who you have some stable revenue. This is the way to do it, unless you come from money or are lucky.

So here's my steps to you for changing things around:

1) Completely revamp your resume, and to stop referring to yourself as unemployed. You were self-employed.

2) write down a list of all the competitors your startup had that are located nearby. Find out the phone numbers/emails to the higher ups in those companies through web searching.

3) phone or email those guys, and say that you are writing a freelance article about the industry. Say you want to interview them for their expertise (all guys love to have their ego's stroked: that's the way to get that introduction you want).

4) during the interview (preferably in person, or by phone), ask them some general questions about the industry, and mention that you had attempted to do a startup in the field but failed. Try to ask questions related to how their business succeeded, in order to compare and contrast with your own experiences. Ask them to give you advice on whether to pursue another startup in this field (even though you may have no intention of doing so) or look for a job in the industry.

Now at this point, it can go 1 of 2 ways. If you're lucky, the other person may see your interest for the field, and ask to see some of your work. If it's good, you will probably move to the top of the pile when a new hire is needed. If that doesn't happen, then repeat as necessary with every other company.

That's a better bet than anything else out there, don't waste your time with the craigslist blackhole

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

I completely agree. Part of the reason I wrote this was as a cautionary tale to other entrepreneurs. Thanks for the detailed advice.

DilipJ4• 15 years ago

Good luck! I know things are rough now, but it will get better. It can be tough feeling like the whole world is succeeding but yourself, but dont let the FUD associated with that get you down.

And if you do start another venture in the future, this experience can be an asset, and one day you will look back on this as a trial you had to go through

bdr• 15 years ago

"He makes it look easy" -- How?

pg2• 15 years ago

I make starting a startup look easy?

"Imagine the stress of working for the Post Office for fifty years. In a startup you compress all this stress into three or four years. You do tend to get a certain bulk discount if you buy the economy-size pain, but you can't evade the fundamental conservation law. If starting a startup were easy, everyone would do it."

http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html

"So I'll tell you now: bad shit is coming. It always is in a startup."

http://paulgraham.com/die.html

"As you go into a startup, you'll be thinking "everyone says it's really extreme." Your next thought will probably be "but I can't believe it will be that bad." If you want to avoid being surprised, the next thought after that should be: "and the reason I can't believe it will be that bad is that my model of work is a job.""

http://paulgraham.com/really.html

nir2• 15 years ago

I wouldn't say easy, but there seems to be an underlying message that it is a deterministic, repeatable process - if you're willing to endure the stress, are smart and hard working you'll succeed - when in reality luck plays a pretty big part, especially in built to flip startups.

danshapiro2• 15 years ago

You're very direct and straightforward about the process you went through, which makes the process look approachable. You've made it easier for companies to get started via YC, and people don't realize that "easier" is relative, and it's still really hard. You talk about how to solve nearly every problem an entrepreneur might find, which makes people think that their problems are all fundamentally solvable. And it's a natural outgrowth of what you do that you spend more time talking about the successes than the failures, even though in reality the latter probably outnumber the former.

You're doing your job well, and a natural byproduct is that it looks easy. Watching Michael Jordan makes it look like it's not that hard to dunk. Doesn't matter how many times you disclaim otherwise.

Not sure why you got downvoted, though.

endlessvoid94• 15 years ago

Sorry, but fuck that. It's totally possible to do this without a job. Live from savings, or do consulting, or something. There's no need to get a full time job.

I couch surfed and therefore didn't need to pay rent for about a month. Met a ton of people through HN, some school contacts, and misc. friends. The network isn't enormous but it's definitely big enough to not require a full time job to get started.

DilipJ4• 15 years ago

Where does a fresh college grad get savings from? Who is going to hire him to consult?

The reality is, most college grads are coming out with 5 or 6 figure student loan debt. Repayment starts within 6 months. You NEED to find a job to start repaying that. If you decide to go the full entrepreneurial route and end up missing even one payment, then you can go into immediate default and fines will be added, and your credit score will be impacted. If and when your entrepreneurial venture fizzles (as most do), you will have a tough time finding a job outside the startup community, because your low credit score and possible wage garnishment issues is a red flag to the pinheads in Human Resources.

This is reality, and I think kids in their 20's who go the startup route straight from college should be made aware of the risks.

gazrogers• 15 years ago

Where do savings come from if not from a job?

jmtame2• 15 years ago

for every guy like pg, there are 9 others just like him who went bankrupt

where did you pull this number from?

hoag2• 15 years ago

Dude, I'm sorry to hear how rough it's been for you. I'd like to echo what many have said about posting samples of your work, and spelling out in more detail your particular skill sets as well as explaining what you have been doing with your time.

That said, I'm afraid we're not hiring yet, however -- and no, this is not a shameless plug, but a genuine offer to help -- I can offer you this:

I think you would benefit tremendously from our new startup. The way that we match Opportunity Seekers (such as job seekers, like yourself) with Opportunity Providers (such as employers) should greatly assist someone in your position -- i.e., talent without experience -- to find a new job or even co-founders to build your own company. We're still prepping the beta (having some typical last minute issues) but you should definitely sign up and give it a shot: venturocket.com.

And as defensive as it may seem to do so, I would like to preemptively state that I'm not trying to take advantage of your seemingly dismal situation, but genuinely trying to help you get connected with something. That my desire to help you will of course benefit our startup -- and therefore me -- should not, on its own, in any way invalidate the sincerity of my claim. After all, if it weren't for my desire to create a more efficient way to connect people with opportunities, I would never be doing my startup in the first place.

Besides, I do believe a certain Mr. Smith once pointed out that "[i]t is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

Best of luck either way.

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

Thanks, I signed up at your website.

hoag2• 15 years ago

Cool man. I hope we can be fully operational soon enough to help you out. In the meantime, I do wish you the best of luck.

fotoblur• 15 years ago

I'd hardly feel as if working at a fledgling startup is considered unemployed even if it was considered so on paper. I'm quite sure that potentially you must have learned a wealth of knowledge during those 6 years and its in your best interest to highlight those on your resume and in any interview you manage to secure.

Being in the position of interviewing many candidates lately I get truly excited when people want to show me code and examples of stuff they've built, including the challenges they've met head on. Being in a startup gives you many life experiences that you need to address as a strength, whether you succeeded or not. A little secret that should be totally obvious is that no one wants to work with weak, incompetent, whiny developers because your life/project is in their hands when you have to get the job done by the deadline. Your team is only going to be as good as your weakest link.

I will tell you also that the market is hot. I just heard that in the tech sector the unemployment rate in CA is 5.9% compared to 12.3% for the entire labor force. So in actuality you'll face less competition finding a job in the tech industry currently than you will at fast food, etc. At my current company (in the Bay Area) we have a hard time finding good people locally, and I hear this same thing from many people at other companies. There is a very competitive job market (between companies) here and my employer is paying us handsomely if we can bring in a good new hire.

In addition I'd say play to your strengths. If you're an okay back end developer but excel at front end then apply to these positions or vice versa. Think of the hiring process from the other side of the desk and you'll be sure to land an interview.

hitechsites3• 15 years ago

There are literally hundreds of ways for someone with programming skills to earn money online - and make more money than hourly wages. Here are just a few to get you started: 1) Setup a profile on Odesk / Elance. Showcase your programming skills and start bidding on projects. There are thousands of eager buyers there. Sure you will be competing with programmers from India/Russia/Phillipines - but you can underbid them all and buyers in the US will hire you - as being in the US and cheaper than offshore programmers will be a huge plus for you. 2) Buy a domain name and build websites using Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal (pick any one), get a domain name for $8.00, use one of thousands of free themes, add some content, RSS feeds, add Google Adsense (all free), drive some traffic using SEO techniques. Then list the site for sale on Flippa, Ebay, Craigslist or any of the other sites to sell stuff. You can easily sell a site for anywhere from $50 to $500. Sell one site for $250 per week = $1000 per month. 3) Setup a site, Sign up for affiliate programs (Commission Juntcion, Linkshare, Amazon ...), Drive traffic and earn affiliate commissions.

4) Market complete websites to small business for under $500 using the technique in (2) above. ....

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

I tried elance. They have a convoluted point system where you can bid on ~10 projects a month. I put in the lowest bid for a bunch of simple <500$ projects, but had no responses. They are lots of indian and russian contracting firms on there spamming every job.

hitechsites3• 15 years ago

Elance is a bit harder - since they charge for premium placements to appear in search. Have you tried Odesk, Rentacoder (and a few more sites). Or even Fiverr seriously. The key is not to give up - getting the first job is the hardest, after which you end up usually getting a client, and establishing a profile/trackrecord. I know, we have been on both sides of this (as a contractor/hiring people on our own projects).

rick888• 15 years ago

You are better off going through craigslist. I've been able to find tons of projects on craigslist in the last couple of years. Many companies are looking for a reliable freelancer/contractor and if you can prove that you are, will go to you for future projects.

hitechsites3• 15 years ago

Would you be interested in working with me on a couple of Twitter related projects? Currently outsourcing on ODesk, but can definitely consider using you. Let me know!

zxcvb3• 15 years ago

I'm glad that I've spent the last couple of years making a name for myself in the big consultancy firms.

I may have to work as hard as a start-up founder but at least I get a nice pay packet and none of this '6years out of college with no career or anything to show for my efforts'.

I don't get why people spend years coming up with crap start-up ideas, failing, then trying the same failed recipe again. I wouldn't try and take something to market unless it was really hot. Your average web 2.0(crap) is just a waste of everyone's time. You could have been working your ass at a big consultancy or trading firm as a technologist in that time and made yourself some good money whilst actually having a life that doesn't involve ramen noodles.

zxcvb3• 15 years ago

Down voting me because you don't agree with me is stupid.

zxcvb3• 15 years ago

Typical HN downvotes. Far too busy circle jerking over your failed statups that rarely lead to anything other than wasted youth.

jasonlynes• 15 years ago

the entire concept of downvoting is based on disagreement.

(haha, awesome whoever just downvoted that)

chr152• 15 years ago

You're getting downvoted because of the condescending tone of your comment.

I used to work at a big consultancy and quit my job not too long ago to work on my ideas full time.

I had a comfortable paycheck, lived in a nice apartment, and drove a nice car at the age of 23. I learned that none of that matters to me. I didn't want my job and my car and my suit to define who I was.

Contrary to many people on HN, I don't do startups for the money. If I were working for the money, I would have stayed in consulting and received a guaranteed six-figures. I do it because, as a hacker, there's no better feeling in the world than creating something and seeing an idea materialize. It sure beats the feeling of waking up to the same routine every day. Turns out you can make a living at it.

The OP will probably get a job so he won't be much different from you. If I were the OP, I wouldn't regret a single thing. That's the risk you take.

mmcdan• 15 years ago

I thought this was a good comment up until "Contrary to many people on HN, I don't do startups for the money." By what metric are you judging this?

kbutler• 15 years ago

Part of the reason is the potential upside: why should you "work as hard as a start-up founder" without the potential payoff of a startup-founder? (Probable value = size of reward * probability)

Another big part is self-determination: work on what you feel excited about. A startup can also add intangibles like experience, excitement, independence.

Will your current job help prepare you to take that "something really hot" to market? Will you be likely to even find that "something" with all your energies devoted to your current job?

I'm currently a captive employee bootstrapping some development on the side, and have previously been an early employee in a small startup, so these are factors I evaluate for myself.

carmen• 15 years ago

an unwillingness to work on closed-source webapps adds a further wedge to the situation. you have it pretty good - desperate "work on our proprietary centrally-hosted webapp" pleas for talented developers are oozing into every crack of the internet

WordSkill• 15 years ago

I might have some work for you.

Can you speak Hindi?

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

No but I can speak english and mandarin.

bugsy2• 15 years ago

Where were you born? Do you have US citizenship?

brackin2• 15 years ago

If you aren't attending events regularly, following the people you need to know from these events in advance on twitter and getting to know them and what they're about then you should be.

gersh• 15 years ago

What was the startup? Did you write code for that? Is there a website? How did you manage to spend 6 years with nothing to show for it?

KevinMS2• 15 years ago

I'm in the boston area and I have a similar experience I seeming to be outside the job market. While I don't have comp sci degree I have lots of work experience as well as a small web business that demonstrates lots of solid code. Just some people don't have the connections or the luck maybe?

techiferous• 15 years ago

The Boston market is hot right now. If you want, feel free to send me your web business / experience and I can give you an objective take on whether you are hirable (maybe you have something that is a "red flag"?). But if you know how to code--and especially if you have built your own web business--you shouldn't have a problem finding work here, so maybe you just need the connections.

KevinMS2• 15 years ago

I think the "red flag" is that I'm over 40. I get screened by HR because I don't have a comp sci degree, and then I end up interviewing with 20 something rails hipsters that just feel uncomforable around an old dot-commer.

The perl community is much much better, which I'm going back to. The rails community has little tolerance for differences. Don't believe me? look at the "about us" in any rails shop, if they have pictures, what do you see? http://thoughtbot.com/about/

rdouble3• 15 years ago

Out of curiosity, how did you support yourself without employment in SF for 6 years?

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

Living in SF I spend less than $15,000 per year on rent and food (I cook). It isn't as expensive as many people think, especially if you limit your entertainment and activities to free things on the internet.

rdouble3• 15 years ago

Well, I've done that, too, but I still had to have a job. Where did the $15,000 come from? That is what I meant.

byrneseyeview2• 15 years ago

You need to reframe this. You aren't an unemployed developer willing to work for minimum wage--you're a former self-employed developer looking for his next gig. As such, you're going to charge your usual rate of $75/hr, because you know that the fastest heuristic for "Is this guy worth it?" is "What do other people think he's worth?" and the fastest heuristic for that is "What is he comfortable charging?"

Of course, you're not interested in internships, or non-programming work. If you have to widen the net, you're giving people a great reason to reject you.

Start your negotiation from a position of strength, and you'll get somewhere. You're starting with surrender--don't be surprised if you lose.

As other people have said: post your Github. Post a link to anything you can about your startup. Start acting like a valuable programmer, so people will treat you like one.

(If it's any comfort, I've been in your situation in another industry. When I started doing what I've written above, rather than what you've written, my life improved dramatically.)

warrenwilkinson• 15 years ago

A lot of the skills you've picked will be marketable. Take a look at your resume, and ask yourself how well it communicates what you learned about: databases, web servers, system maintenance, typography, design, AB testing, payment systems, Apps (facebook, iphone, android), well known software/libraries, git, unit testing, agile, business development, networking, marketing, blogging, and sales.

You're in the business of selling yourself. Try writing about the 'benefits' you provide your employer, not your 'features'. For example: 6 years of startup experience is a feature. Ability to bring products to design-completion/code-completion/market is a benefit. Knowledge of several key technologies is a benefit because you don't need training nor time to get up to speed. Your startup experience means your used to working without much direction, you're used to working hard, you are flexible/resourceful, you understand the role and importance of sales, marketing, and customer service in an organization, and you are connected to the startup network -- a connection your employer could benefit from when hiring.

You should try to present the benefits you feel will maximally impress your future employee.

herval• 15 years ago

What is your startup? What does it do?

leftside• 15 years ago

A few notes:

- You don't get a programming job by applying at In 'n Out.

- Reframe your pitch. You need to signal to employers that you're worth hiring; "Hire me, I'm desperate and barely competent" doesn't really push that message.

- What's "real" job experience? Did you write code for 6 years, or not?

- I'm out of touch with what junior engineers get paid (hopefully it's less than $100k), but I'm guessing your friends have accumulated track records over the past few years and are in mid- to senior-level positions. I don't think you're likely to get one of those given your history (to say nothing of your self-presentation). If that's been your target, maybe aim a little lower, at junior-level jobs? Still difficult since there are so many junior engineers.

- What everyone else said.

When presenting yourself as someone of value, remember that it doesn't matter if you believe it. Just say it with authority. =)

Good luck!

curiouslurker• 15 years ago

See how "PG is hurting the kids"? :) anyways, seriously I also find it hard to believe that someone with this kind of skill is willing to work for minimum wage. And seriously a successful startup will never be built by someone willing to work for minimum wage! Sorry to say this but you got issues bro!

shrike• 15 years ago

We're looking for someone with Python experience, you could work mostly from home as soon you've proven your ability to deliver on time, otherwise we're in Sunnyvale, right off the CalTrain.

Get some code posted up at GitHub. You don't need to solve a new problem, just find an interesting way to solve any problem or show your skills off. The are 1000's of data sources out there, mash some stuff together.

Get active on StackOverflow, I've hired a couple of people based solely on what I saw there.

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

What is your email?

sbisker• 15 years ago

Btw, thanks for putting yourself out there. Seriously. You've taken a really important step in fixing your situation - putting yourself in situations that are unlike what you've been doing in the past (which hasn't been working for whatever reason), and seeing what happens. Experimentation will get you everywhere.

Secondly, I think you should put your work online. If you've really done website work, why not throw some of that work online for us to see or play with? After spending some time in design school, I see just how more powerful a portfolio can be than a resume. Pictures say a thousand words, and a good code sample or open source contribution says at least as many. :)

To those skeptical of this post, remember we're talking about someone without any job experience. Not even an internship, it sounds like. Being able to code is one thing, but it's often hard to show experience in the "soft skills" of programming without having said you've done it before - from good code commenting practice and source control, to dealing with working for a boss. Hiring someone for their first job requires takes some risk on the part of the employer.

Come to think of it, maybe if this HN post doesn't help, you can consider applying to paid internships? While many internships are just for students, some (especially smaller companies or startups) are happy just for the short-term help - and you might just turn it into a full time gig.

zedshaw2• 15 years ago

Well, I feel for you. Being unemployed sucks ass, especially when you have skills but can't seem to get a job. At the risk that this some very bizarre sort of dumb troll, I'll propose this:

If you ever want to meet up for lunch at Union Square, I meet with random programmers from the SOMA area all the time. You're welcome to show up and hang out with us. They probably all know of jobs and people hiring, or at a minimum can give you advice.

I'll probably do it the first week after PyCon, but feel free to contact me at my email (if you're smart, you'll figure it out as it's really not that hard to find out how to email Zed Shaw when he has a domain at ZedShaw.com).

unemployedinSF10• 15 years ago

Lunch with Zed Shaw? Hell yes! Emailed.

kunqiana• 15 years ago

we definitely need more stories like these to balance out the belief that doing a start-up is some how "easy". The reason is not to discourage people but to let them know what they are in for so that they can prepare better. It would also give some CS undergrads second thoughts about dropping out of college with the attitude that start-ups are easier.

mlloyd• 15 years ago

You actually do have work experience if you've been building your own company for the last 6 years. Do you have anything to show for it? If so, that's your resume. If you don't...well why not? That would be your real problem, not the lack of work history.

laaph• 15 years ago

From reading your post, my first thought is, "stop panicking, employers smell desperation from miles away". Stop worrying about it for a second, realize what you have to offer, and don't throw yourself out there as "please! I'll do anything!"

What I would recommend, is that you join ODesk, ELance, or one of the many other "let's play consultant" websites. Yes you'll be competing with the Bangladeshis but actually the good ones want big salaries too so you aren't competing against too much. What I would do, is when you submit a bid, write in something like "I'm only doing this to enhance my portfolio -- can I reserve the right to show this to future employers?" and if they say yes, you have something to show! If they say no, double your asking price, or at least bring it up to standard value, and if standard value doesn't scare them away, you get moneys!

Seriously, there are threads on both HN and reddit about people who have made serious money on those sites, with piles of advice about which jobs to take and stay away from. Using whatever portfolio you build up, take this into your resume.

And if you take the advice of others here, list your startup as "self employed", as well as the consultant time, odds are future employers won't even look at your code (and HR wouldn't know what to make of it anyway).

There is a lot of other great advice here too. Best of luck.

Ask HN: I'm an unemployed programmer in SF that will work for minimum wage

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