Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50573069

by mzs • 7 years ago

428 294 7 years ago

bbc.co.uk

anfilt• 7 years ago

First China and now Russia. Come on apple, I don't like seeing placation or appeasement like this.

mzs6• 7 years ago

Anyone know how to check these from different locations? I'm curious about how Transnistria is treated from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia.

Google, which also produces a popular Maps app, does not show Crimea as belonging to either Russia or Ukraine on its maps.
However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

hmage3• 7 years ago

https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg

Ukrainian users see a state/province border (top image)

German users see a disputed international boundary (middle image)

Russian users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image).

(and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

ir773• 7 years ago

i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance -- but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding campaign that only works in the USA.

all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also become negotiable in the USA.

in the USA, because of fairly well established democracy and general freedom of speech apple is able to push back on government "requests" blatantly in the open and use this openness to their advantage. everywhere else where no such transparency exists because the government completely controls the communication medium these pushbacks simply don't happen -- apple really has no interest of ever stepping out on a limb if that limb will cost them calculated market share.

it's really sad because they as a company are speaking/acting out of both of their ends, depending on the convenience of the local market. it's convenient and possible to push back in the USA, it's convenient and impossible to push back with other totalitarian regimes so they fold.

S_A_P• 7 years ago

I gotta say this is a pretty weak move on apples part. If apple really wants to be a cultural force, hard decisions must be made. Bowing to any government leader in any country is a slippery slope.

ir773• 7 years ago

the problem is that even if i had a knee jerk reaction (i slightly did ;) ) and said 1)i should take a stance against apple 2) google is not an alternative -- what are my options? i can try to hack together some lineageOS device or something else, which will ruin the camera experience for me -- probably the most important feature of my smartphone for me.

on top of that, i'll still have to rely on google for map /traffic data as i'm not aware of any other well established alternatives -- but what's worse is that i'm still in the USA and while google shows me a free and liberated map of a world it obviously can be showing someone in russia/iran/china something completely different and 'local' to them.

how does one really fight this?

pjc505• 7 years ago

Apple doesn't want to be a cultural force. Apple want to sell phones. They have to comply with local law to do so.

Doing otherwise is "bias" and "politics". Now, you may argue that Apple should be biased towards the Western view of the world, and have its own politics of national recognition, but there is substantial pushback against big tech companies having a political bias.

derefr3• 7 years ago

Does anyone believe in "change from the inside" any more?

From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands, and thus offering a sub-optimal form of their products/services—but still a form that has nonzero privacy/democracy/etc.-enhancing effects, relative to the alternatives that would fill the market in their absence.

For example, iOS devices at least have a universal base image where Apple knowingly makes these changes, and as few of them as possible; whereas Android devices get their firmware tampered with in each country by that country's OEMs, and so can be made arbitrarily compromised, including making those same changes to the maps on the client side.

---

Or, to put a finer point on it: a company like Apple that offers privacy/security-enhancing products, opting out of a market because that market's government sees them as a threat and wants to neuter their abilities, would be like a peacekeeping organization opting out of a country because of the very things that make countries need peacekeeping (e.g. a failed state.)

Would you pressure KFOR to leave Kosovo because the Kosovo government doesn't let them do their jobs? No, that'd be reason for them to stay.

What's suddenly different if it's a profit-motivated corporation? They're still helping citizens evade state surveillance, even if entirely for selfish reasons.

golemotron2• 7 years ago

From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands

How did that work in China?

More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas for countries is not their place.

raxxorrax• 7 years ago

I think Apple doesn't really provide anything that I consider democracy enhancing. Few big tech companies do that.

I associate democracy with choice and Apple isn't really too active in that domain. As for the services their products provide, I think that is more in line with all alternatives.

That said, Apple at least seems to have protected user data from government access. Let's see if that holds.

But in practice government would have more difficulties to include backdoors in Android for example and Apple has a single point of failure.

Angostura• 7 years ago

To be clear - this is a change in the way the maps are displayed when viewed from inside Russia only.

scarface74• 7 years ago

That’s true for all companies. Do you think that Facebook could take the “principled stand” of not putting their servers in countries with non democratically elected governments if any of those countries actually allowed FaceBook? Of course they can be principled about not putting their servers in China since FB isn’t allowed there anyway.

SebastianKra2• 7 years ago

What you're indirectly saying is: Apple should break the law in countries that don't follow western ideals. This is a slipppery slope. Do you really want companies to fight over what they think is morally right?

...because then get ready for Xiaomi sending the floor plan from your Roomba straight to the chinese government.

...or what if Telegram suddenly started banning gay users because that's obviously wrong and immoral by Russian standards?

...or what if American Ad-Companies decided that they "morally disagree" with GDPR.

Just like any individual person, Companies can fight for their ideals as long as they follow the law of wherever they are.

ir773• 7 years ago

But Apple is already doing that - they’re building their perception, at least in USA, as freedom of speech and privacy fighting company, with Tim leading the way sharing his personal experience being a gay man. Where is Tim’s aversion to oppression and discrimination when it comes to standing up to Russia and China? If Tim was an open gay Joe Schmo waking around in st Petersburg he would be considered a criminal. So yes - Apple does try to speak out of both ends and that’s my issue here: at least every other tech company acts as a corporation putting profit and market penetration first, only Apple tries very hard, in USA, to make it seem like they stand for something more only to immediately roll over behind the scenes.

hmage3• 7 years ago

small sidenote -- telegram has nothing to do with russia, the founder had to flee russia to ensure his freedom, and that was _before_ he created telegram.

eznoonze• 7 years ago

What a world we live in! Each country gets its own version of alternative reality.

hollander• 7 years ago

It should be marked as disputed, from both sides, like "agreed to disagree".

Think what would happen if the UK took back Hong Kong, or if Hong Kong declared itself independent. We - westerners - would all love that and accept it immediately. Would we have a problem then with Apple if they showed HK as a separate country?

pjc505• 7 years ago

You might want to have a look at Taiwan.

nmeofthestate• 7 years ago

"It should be marked as disputed"

That's not how international law works. By all means maps may be tailored to suit the preferences of markets/countries, but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Currently the internationally-recognised borders between Ukraine/Russia are well-defined.

We - westerners - would all love [the UK invading and annexing Hong Kong] and accept it immediately.

What rot!

gmueckl• 7 years ago

That's not a new thing. Maps have been political for ages. Mandating the shape of border lines on maps has been a part of many border disputes.

Also, it's eye opening to read or watch news from other countries. There's a big country-specific bias in the selection of international news stories. This bias is a necessary evil, but it can have a huge political and cultural impact.

kinkrtyavimoodh2• 7 years ago

That's not surprising given that borders are not in any way "reality". They are mutually agreed upon conventions that, well, not everyone agrees upon.

It should be no more surprising than having a British English dictionary and an American English dictionary, only with higher stakes.

vbezhenar2• 7 years ago

Many borders are reality. Try to trespass a border and watch who captures you. That's the entity which controls the border.

jobigoud• 7 years ago

This scenario is so common and the list of disputed territories is so long that it should be a standard.

It could be a bit like the timezones, the locale, or the decimal point separator, or other things like that. It should be an option at the OS level that you can configure, not be forced into.

There should be a common database that you can integrate in your map, a bit like timezone historical records, and the user should be able to see the map as claimed by any given country/territory. By default this could depend on your location or locale but it should definitely be possible to always see the map as the other side of the dispute has it, and to configure your device so that it shows maps (for all map software on the device), from a given perspective.

yardie• 7 years ago

This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name disputes can get very political and potentially violent.

Off the top of my head:

* Persian/Arabian Gulf

* Palestine/Israel

* Western Sahara/Morocco

* Kashmir

pjc505• 7 years ago

Nagorno-Karabakh. Even Kosovo isn't really settled, and is probably the easiest one for a European to reach.

izacus• 7 years ago

Kosovo and Macedonia could also be added to that list.

Not to mention myriad of minor border disputes pretty much everywhere across the world.

duskwuff• 7 years ago

Another big one: naming of oceans in southeast Asia. There's the South China Sea / West Philipppine Sea, for example, or the Sea of Japan / Sea of Korea / East Sea.

improbable22• 7 years ago

* Antarctica!

Every map you see in Chile & Argentina includes a large pie-slice of the continent... and pretty close to being the same pie slice as each other's.

Not to mention some islands which one of them tried to take over, once upon a time.

Freak_NL• 7 years ago

* The Netherlands/Germany

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982

Note the overlapping borders that makes a bit of sea part of both countries.

This is strictly a non-violent matter of differing border interpretations though, with almost no judicial or maritime consequences.

cpursley19• 7 years ago

However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last time I was there (early this year), I saw a number of new mosques under construction.

I'm not justifying the recent annexation, just noting the linguist realities on the ground. Also, politics aside, if you ever have the chance to visit, do it. The peninsula is very beautiful and there's lots of interesting geographical features and historical sights to see. Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics

polski-g4• 7 years ago

The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.

jevgeni8• 7 years ago

Oh wow... "Jedem das Seine", right? /s

keymone9• 7 years ago

First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.

jevgeni8• 7 years ago

By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages.

Also, the argument "well it was like that since <some time t>" does not really have traction. Why choose an arbitrary time point? Usually, these arguments fall apart when you suggest to look at <t - dt>.

cpursley19• 7 years ago

In many Russian territories, they are in fact. You'll see multi lingual signs and that kind of stuff. I was in Komi Republic this time last year and many signs had both Komi (a Fino language) and Russian, despite a very insignificant number of living speakers.

excursionist3• 7 years ago

By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages.

Why not? Use the most common local language as well as Russian.

knolax2• 7 years ago

But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.

mzs6• 7 years ago

So? It's not Z Lałręc ul nor Hospital Conmemorativo de Jackson in US just because the majority of people in a place speak a different language or came from somewhere else.

knolax2• 7 years ago

Except that's exactly how it happens in the US, it's "Los Angeles" /lɔːs ˈændʒələs/ and not "Los Ángeles" /los ãŋxeles/ because the majority of people there have been English speakers ever since the US conquest of the Southwest.

zzzcpan3• 7 years ago

The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian), not Ukrainian. It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian.

This is misleading and factually incorrect. Everyone who speaks Russian also speaks Ukrainian in Ukraine, except for people who literally moved there recently from Russia and other countries.

cpursley19• 7 years ago

Yes, this is factually correct - just Google around for Crimea language maps. While this is true of mainland Ukraine (multilingual), Crimea has a different history. It was Russian speakers from the Russian Empire who displaced Tatars (a Turkish language). There was never a significant Ukrainian speaking population in Crimea. Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian.

Just because you don't agree with Russian politics doesn't change the facts about which languages are spoken:

* https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea * https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-spea...

ajross• 7 years ago

I'm not justifying the recent annexation

It really sounds like you are, though. I mean the principle most of us care about here isn't about matching iOS app text to "the linguistic realities on the ground", it's about not condoning the literal invasion of neighboring countries (by a nuclear power, no less).

Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover

Also sounds very much like a justification for an invasion.

mzs6• 7 years ago

Want to know the worst part? Chase* edited his comment to add those parts you quoted. It's not surprising I guess he has "CCCP" on his IG avatar: https://imgur.com/Oh1OlfD

* https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cpursley

about: chasepursley.com

imjasonmiller• 7 years ago

The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783.

Where did you find population data before 1879? I have looked at the linked data before and it was called the first Russian census [1]. If I am not mistaken, the data at that time shows Tatars still being the biggest group at 35.6%.

In the context of this topic I think it is fair to also include the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Crimean Tatars by Lavrentiy Beria, which is one of the reasons for their numbers dwindling to less than one percent in '45 [2].

The link [2] also shows that Crimean Tatars made up 98% of Crimea in 1783. From the linked authors, Tanner [3, p. 21–22], wrote:

Ever since the first Russian conquest of the Crimean Khanate, the Tatars had faced striking and gradual colonization of Crimea by Slavs, mainly Russians and Ukrainians. At the time of the Russian annexation of the Crimean Khanate in 1783, Crimea was an almost uniformly Tatar country, Crimeans constituting 98% of the population (about 500,000) people.

With the other author, Drohobycky [4, p. 73], writing:

Until the end of the eighteenth century, the Crimean Tatars were the largest ethnic group based on size. The process of formation of the Crimean Tatar people had been completed in the sixteenth century. After Crimeas annexation by Russia in 1873, Crimea was intensively colonized by the Russians and less intensively by the Ukrainians, Germans, Bulgarians, Jews, Armenians, Greeks, and other ethnic groups.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat...

3. Tanner, A. (2004). The Forgotten minorities of Eastern Europe: the history and today of selected ethnic groups in five countries. Helsinki: East-West Books.

4. Drohobycky, M. (1995). Crimea: Dynamics, Challenges and Prospects. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.

cpursley19• 7 years ago

We're not in disagreement. The displacement of Crimean Tartars was not immediate. Then later, the deportation of them under Stalin and Beria to the Soviet *stans (which was terrible and horrifying). After the fall of the USSR, a large number of the Tartars returned to Crimea (I once had an interesting conversation with one on a flight who now lives in the US).

brutt19• 7 years ago

You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").

cpursley19• 7 years ago

Well, yes - this deportation happened and is one of the many dark moments in USSR history. Glad you brought this up - difficult to write the entire history of the region on hn. The history of the Pontic Greeks and then later, Italian city states, in the Black Sea is really fascinating.

This is a pretty decent English language history of the area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book)

Also, I didn't know about "mova", neat - this language or dialect was spoken in Crimea?

int_19h7• 7 years ago

These all need to be considered separately.

Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of the population of Crimea before the Russian conquest. They became the minority partly through genocide, and partly because the peninsula was settled by Russian colonists.

Ukrainians, on the other hand, were never indigenous in Crimea. It was not a part of Kievan Rus, so any Ukrainians who lived there, immigrated there after the Russian occupation of it. And there are so few mostly because most immigration to it was orchestrated, and the Imperial government preferred to settle it with Russian rather than Ukrainian colonists.

So in one case, you can talk about genocide of the indigenous population. In the other case, it's preferential treatment of one ethnicity over another for colonization purposes.

trymas9• 7 years ago

Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now.

Ukraine, after Soviet Union crumbled was always under the foot of Russian Federation. It is the poorest performer of any country which became independent after Soviet occupation. It never managed to properly "westernize", because Russian influence and bullying was strong. Russian cronies in the government and Crimea was literally a Russian naval base. Due to strong influence from the East, eastern Ukraine population was mentally stuck in the "good old Soviet times".

After Maidan in 2014 and Russian friendly Ukrainian president was toppled for dropping trade agreements from EU, Putin clearly saw that he may lose control of the naval bases to the Black Sea, so decided to take Crimea by power.

Crimea to Russia right now is just propaganda to push agenda for the rest of Ukraine and to the Russians as well (oh look how great you'll live in the Mother Russia). Most of the Russia except for Moscow and St. Petersburg is in pretty poor and rough state.

P.S. sorry for my English. Non native speaker. Also opinion is mine and speaking from my memory, if I am not correct please correct me.

I am talking as a person whose country was at the same position as Ukraine 30 years ago, but now average Joe is economically 5-10 times better than average Ukrainian. Ukraine is poor because it's 20-30 years late to free itself from Soviet/Russian shambles.

Edit: also I want to add that for Russia this stunt did cost huge amounts from cash reserves and rubble have lost half of it's value which has not recovered to this day, which made locals "very happy".

cpursley19• 7 years ago

Interesting and fair enough. Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation, but they have complained about the loss of purchasing power (Ruble is stronger than Hryvnia). So infrastructure is better, but their incomes have not adjusted to be in line with rest of Russia and things are more expensive than before.

dangus2• 7 years ago

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point.

Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control.

Just because Russia’s actions have been condemned by the international community doesn’t mean those actions weren’t taken and weren’t successful.

We have to admit at some point that Russia controls this territory now because, sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it. Russia essentially fought a brief war and won, and took territory as a result.

It’s getting to the point where a map saying that this land is inside the Ukraine is an inaccurate statement.

pjc505• 7 years ago

Maps used to be, like telegraph systems, under far more aggressive state control in various places. I seem to remember that Turkey had a law against possessing maps at greater than specified resolution without a license.

Even in present-day India I believe maps are required to show Kashmir with the Indian view, and customs may theoretically confiscate differing printed maps.

reaperducer2• 7 years ago

I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps?

Pretty much the same. Map is tailored to its audience.

Visit a mid-tier antiques shop in a large global city (New York, London, Vienna) and you may see some old maps with some interesting borders.

One of the walls in my home office has one of those big pull-down school maps of the Middle East. There isn't a date on it, but based on the borders it's probably about 80 years old. A number of... unconventional... names and borders on it.

varjag3• 7 years ago

The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence.

Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.

lawnchair_larry4• 7 years ago

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

dangus2• 7 years ago

Yes, and that was largely the subjective opinion of those US-based map publications.

A US-adversary might want to call Puerto Rico a US-occupied independent state and they’d have similar justification.

What is “right” in global politics is highly subjective.

kelnos• 7 years ago

sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it.

Why "sadly"? By all reliable accounts, the Crimean people would rather be a part of Russia. Obviously we'd prefer that land and people be transferred between countries via diplomacy rather than military action, but I don't feel like expecting that to happen in this case is realistic.

(Obviously Russia didn't annex Crimea out of the goodness of its heart, of course. I imagine it was primarily for some form of strategic advantage, and Crimea being largely populated by ethnic Russians just made it both easier to accomplish and justify.)

xxpor• 7 years ago

Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

TurkishPoptart• 7 years ago

Because Tim Cook is worthless and spineless.

dang• 7 years ago

Please don't post personal attacks or call names in HN comments. Perhaps you don't owe billionaire CEOs better, but you owe this community better if you're participating here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cpursley19• 7 years ago

Have you ever been to Russia? Every Russian under age 35 is on their smart phone looking at Instagram 24-7. The older generation is on vkontakte via their smart phones sharing cat videos (Russians love cats). I'd go as far as saying that it's getting out of hand...

lolc• 7 years ago

For the people that use it to navigate their lives, a map is most useful when it shows realities on the ground and calls places by the names most useful for the people going there.

If you're talking about legitimacy, of course you could be interested in different maps. But why should Apple care much about that? Why not tell those users to "shove it"? Why should these users get to foist their impractical map on everybody else?

The wall between Israel and Palestinian territories is disputed and internationally condemned. Still the most useful map is the one showing who controls what parts. The demands of restoration use very different maps that would be impractical to navigate day-to-day. Imagine going to the West Bank with a map showing the never-implemented borders of 1947.

vbezhenar2• 7 years ago

If that would make you more happy, Apple maps are incredibly bad in Russia and nobody really uses them. Google maps, Yandex maps, 2Gis and some other local maps are miles ahead.

MrZongle22• 7 years ago

Because that requires a level of courage beyond removing a headphone jack.

Doctor_Fegg• 7 years ago

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news.

The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

kinkrtyavimoodh2• 7 years ago

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.

EGreg• 7 years ago

Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes.

One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it.

We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a similar post. The guys in their boiler room use Google Translate to see if a post in another language is offensive, which is ironic since Facebook is using a Google tool internally.

A more pointed example is when the SESTA / FOSTA bill was passed last year to require platforms to police child pornography being posted and the EFF and other free speech advocates were actually up in arms about it, saying that puts undue burdens on facebook and other platforms which are far too big.

The problem is why are they too big? Because they run all the software and don’t give it to us. And open source software isn’t good enough to compete with what they have. Look at HN, it is able to add whatever rules it needs to police stuff, and runs on Arc.

That’s why Wordpress, Magento, OSM are so important. Eventually they will copy everything the centralized players have and you can CUSTOMIZE them with a marketplace of plugins. Like how the Web replaced AOL.

We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today?

krick2• 7 years ago

I find this argument pretty funny, because despite all the borders if you look at Crimea on OSM, it looks Russian alright: cities have Ukrainian spelling on the Ukraine part of the map and Russian on the Crimea.

thepete2• 7 years ago

IIRC OSM's attitude is "map what's on the ground", so if people in Crimea believe they are in Russia that's what OSM should show.

femto• 7 years ago

To that end, there are proposals for OSM to handle disputed boundaries.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/M...

The idea is that OSM captures the multiple views of the boundary in dispute, allowing the user to choose their rendering.

Whilst good in theory, it's probably not different to other's approach in practise. Thinking people can choose to see a boundary as disputed, whilst nationalists on either side can choose to see it as soley theirs, thus amplifying their own echo chamber. The main difference from others is that the choice of rendering is potentially up to the individual, due to the availability of all the data, but in practise most people will be using a provider who has already made the choice for them.

rmc2• 7 years ago

Yes, that's OSM's usual rule, but an exception was made for Crimea, and it is mapped as part of Ukraine & Russia (overlapping borders)

trymas9• 7 years ago

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news.

Exactly. Couple days ago, I have entered "Palestine" into google maps. It did not highlight any territory and just showed me generic location of Middle East. On mobile it did not relocate map view at all.

AFAIK with disputed territories it was always like that - it depends what you search and from where you search. Names, borders will be different and IMO it's fine as reality is that regarding locations there's sometimes no clear answer who controls it and what name it has.

IIRC there's an island on a river in Europe where it is exchanged between countries weekly (or daily, don't remember)..

nayuki• 7 years ago

"The Island That Switches Countries Every Six Months", Half as Interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZs_VLx6p4

underused• 7 years ago

Pheasant Island on the river Bidassoa that runs between France and Spain; administration of the island switches every six months. It has since 1659 when Louis xiv and Philip iv signed the peace Treaty of the Pyrenees on the island. It is a different situation IMO for it has clear and settled ownership, that being both. Accessed by boat,and on it some trees and grass; it has little intrinsic value to either sovereign or local population. It is seen as the place were towns share the duty of cutting the grass. It's not a tourist spot of any sort.

bjourne• 7 years ago

But the Palestine example shows that it does not happen with every disputed territory in the world. If you are living in a country that has recognized Palestine and has diplomatic relations the state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_t...) it would make sense that "Palestine" would show up on the map. But it doesn't show up either on Google's, Apple's or Bing's map.

trianglem• 7 years ago

What’s disputed in the Western Sahara?

w1nst0nsm1th• 7 years ago

Some land disputed betweens Morocco and independantist Polisario front.

sukilot5• 7 years ago

Only organizations that need to operate under the graces of an authority (for reasons of physical or financial security) are beholden to that authority. A volunteer organization in US (or wherever OSM is) has nothing to lose to Russia, India, China, etc.

Russia, China, etc could still block OSM at a firewall if they choose.

rmc2• 7 years ago

A volunteer organization in US (or wherever OSM is)

The OpenStreetMap Foundation, which supports the OpenStreetMap project, and owns the domain name, trademarks & hardware, is registered in England & Wales

mlb_hn• 7 years ago

Yep, there's been some academic work like MapWatch (2016) [0] on tracking the differences in how different providers present different borders in different regions over time.

[0] https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2883016

analyst74• 7 years ago

Baidu map shows Taiwan as a province of China wherever you are....which probably contributed to it not being major league.

larnmar2• 7 years ago

Oddly when viewed from Australia it doesn’t show our one and only disputed territorial claim, the Australian Antarctic Territory.

I guess Aussies just don’t complain enough to be worth pandering to.

LeoPanthera• 7 years ago

The headline is somewhat misleading. The map has only been changed when viewed from inside Russia.

It is unchanged, everywhere else.

anotheryou4• 7 years ago

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see.

https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg

Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image)

Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image)

Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image).

(and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

I made the screenshots using proxies or maybe just changing the domains about a year ago (don't remember what exactly I did).

treden2• 7 years ago

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

naz• 7 years ago

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation

The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

loceng2• 7 years ago

It makes Google and Apple targets or any centralized information services for capture to then try to control the narrative globally.

anotheryou4• 7 years ago

Well if so it's still just the side-effect of not loosing out on selling their services in the target country.

Maybe you are right and it's the best way, I however also see how everyone is deeper in their own bubble with their own reality. Something that can easily cause a very skewed post-fact world view.

excursionist3• 7 years ago

it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from.

The fact of which country controls a territory, which country's laws apply there, which is the local currency, etc. does not change based on your politics. What google is doing is just PR/politics - they are just taking what they see as the least risky path for their business. It's not useful to say Crimea is part of Ukraine because for all practical purposes it is not. If China decided to crush Hong Kong protests with military and establish full control - would it make sense to pretend it is an independent state if Western nations decided to declare it so for political purposes?

adrianmonk• 7 years ago

google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth

There is an objective truth here, though, that could be shown (if it were allowed). You could show it as disputed. That the dispute exists is an objective truth. The very fact that different states require you to display it differently is proof of that.

presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from

Normally I shy away from this terminology, but let's call it what it is: propaganda. Tech companies (Google, Apple) don't custom-tailor their maps because they want to. They do it because the states use leverage to force them into it. And the states do it to promote the idea that the disputed territory is theirs.

laretluval• 7 years ago

An alternative would be to present the version of borders which is most likely to be relevant for a traveler in terms of border crossings, visa requirements, etc.

notatoad• 7 years ago

"true" or "not true" is probably the wrong way to frame this. There's no reason Google or Apple should want to be involved in deciding the truth, but they do to be a source of useful information.

Knowing whether or not you're going to be crossing a border is useful information when you're physically close to that border. When you're viewing the same map from 1000km away, the political status of the border is probably more important to you than whether or not you're going to be stopped by border guards.

sukilot5• 7 years ago

A TLD isn't where you are viewing from, it is what you are viewing. GeoIP is where you are viewing from.

The difference matters for things like GDPR.

4bpp• 7 years ago

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is under Russian control.

Maps are usually supposed to represent aspects of reality, in particular those relevant to moving around and understanding places (e.g. whether someone will stop and check your passport, or which country's laws you should consult in a particular location to minimise your chances of getting thrown in a dungeon). I get that many people get fuzzy feelings from looking at pictures that look like maps but instead represent a hypothetical reality they would prefer to be in, but there must be a better term for those than "maps".

Mountain_Skies• 7 years ago

Wonder if the Falkland Islands are labeled Malvinas on Google Maps when viewed in Argentina.

the_af• 7 years ago

It displays "Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)".

Rexxar• 7 years ago

Different name depending on language is not necessarily a sign of a political dispute (even if it is in this particular case).

agumonkey• 7 years ago

I find this contextual reality somehow funny. Can I have a google.1600.es too ? just so I can enjoy a larger empire.

treden2• 7 years ago

Yes, but only if you access from within Madrid.

Tehdasi• 7 years ago

Google shows whatever you want to see.

Correction, it shows you whatever your government wants/ allows you to see.

pjc505• 7 years ago

See also Kashmir, Microsoft 1995: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42...

More accidentally, https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29... : Microsoft accidentally flood Poland.

mzs6• 7 years ago

Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819

IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side. #CrimeaIsUkraine

nickpeterson2• 7 years ago

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals.

I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.

jevgeni8• 7 years ago

That is legally not true.

FpUser5• 7 years ago

I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.

I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

jrockway• 7 years ago

I think it's valuable for Apple to have a mapping product, and having that product invites governments to interfere. I think it's safe to say you're politically neutral when you just do what governments tell you to do.

Two governments not agreeing with each other is a problem for them to work out amongst themselves. Apple just has to maintain a system that allows them to stay in compliance with every government's view at once, and appear to be doing that. (I can type the Hong Kong flag on my iPhone, after all.) That's not politics, that's just self-preservation.

I think what people really want are for corporations to advocate for the political views that they happen to agree with. I was like that up until the whole NBA/China, Apple/China, and Blizzard/China controversy. After being deeply upset for a while, I came to terms with the fact that Fortune 500 companies are not going to be the guiding force towards a better world. They are just going to play basketball or make phones or make computer games. And I'm OK with that. Not thrilled, but I accept it.

sukilot5• 7 years ago

That's cheap propaganda with fake casual tone. Apple has to do something with Crimea on the map, and anything they choose is global politics. Or is MFA of Ukraine asking Apple to stop mapping Crimea completely?

mklarmann• 7 years ago

The situation is not that simple. There is a Swiss historian discussing the case in great detail. For anyone who feels that something is odd about this - have a look. I am sorry it is in German so... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMfNmx0wKo

salimmadjd• 7 years ago

Interesting historical background (not taking sides here).

Russia sold Alaska to America to pay for the debt accrued from the Crimean War.[0]

It was Nikita Khrushchev who decided to hand over Crimea as territory of Ukraine.[1]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

brutt19• 7 years ago

Ukraine was much larger before Soviet invasion. Crimea and Kuban were removed first, then Crimea granted back in exchange of other territories of same size at North and East of Ukraine, then Crimean is captured again. Never trust Russians.

vogre12• 7 years ago

Kuban and Crimea was conquered by Russian Empress Catherine the Great from Ottomans and local Golden Horde debrises.

Ukraine was never considered non-Russian state until the fall of Soviets in 199x. Even when it gained short independency in 1917 by the rulings of the Brest Peace, it proclaimed itself as part of some new Russian Federation(that idea was not really liked by bolsheviks and they eliminated that state).

Even then Crimea wasn't the part of the Ukraine. It was added to Ukraine only in 1954, when Ukrainian-born Khruschev gave it to Ukraine without some plebiscite or other voting.

There were some lands that were really given to Ukraine for exchange for Kuban - the West Ukraine, which belonged to Poland before WWII.

wnevets• 7 years ago

I'm sure apple will try to spin this as having courage

Gaelan• 7 years ago

@mods would it be possible to add "when viewed in Russia" to the title? Seems like an important caveat.

jmull• 7 years ago

I would think maps published in a given region pretty much have to follow the political norms of that region -- unless they are specifically meant as a political statement.

Now, if Apple showed Crimea as part of Russia in other parts of the world in response to Russian pressure, then that's a story.

Nasrudith• 7 years ago

A more honest way of doing these maps would be to assign universal and transparent territory codes for claimed divergent maps.

Of course honesty would defeat the point of the legitimacy propaganda aspect as it would make the politics of it abundantly clear.

mensetmanusman2• 7 years ago

They should shadow ban the Russian politicians and show them the entire world belongs to Russia. Would that get the point across to them?

1023bytes• 7 years ago

Well, there is no denying that the region is in fact currently governed by Russia. Whether that is right is another question.

MrZongle22• 7 years ago

And unfortunately it seems like the question that many people are willing to give Apple a pass for.

lawnchair_larry4• 7 years ago

Nobody is giving Apple a pass. The map is factual. Like it or not, Crimea is now part of Russia (again). I’m not sure why the change is only visible to Russia.

macinjosh3• 7 years ago

Do you really think somewhere in Apple HQ Tim Cook gathered everyone around and said Apple is going to make a big political statement, about something they have no part in, but instead of putting out a press release let's just change one part of the map for one country. Puhlease. This is a reflection of current reality.

bitwize• 7 years ago

No shit. It is literally a crime in some countries to suggest that some piece of land which they consider part of their territory, is not part of their territory. Microsoft ran into this with Kashmir in Windows 95.

dmix4• 7 years ago

I learned early in my web dev career that the India northern map one is a very touchy subject if you intend to target Indians with your web service.

You have to be careful not to take some random map off the internet when using them in the design.

colechristensen• 7 years ago

What are the issues at play in northern India?

evgenyp• 7 years ago

Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.

kalleboo• 7 years ago

Obligatory The Old New Thing link: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42...

The time zone map met a similar fate. The Indian government threatened to ban all Microsoft software from the country because we assigned a disputed region to Pakistan in the time zone map. (Any map that depicts an unfavorable border must bear a government stamp warning the end-user that the borders are incorrect. You can’t stamp software.) We had to make a special version of Windows 95 for them.

hyko• 7 years ago

Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.

yogthos• 7 years ago

Show me a single corporation that has values beyond making a profit.

firethief• 7 years ago

Show me a mammal who has values beyond continuing to oxidize food.

Survival is an overriding value for everyone, but acting in accordance with other values can be a part of how that's achieved--ideally corporations are rewarded with profitability when they act in accordance with society's values. How best to achieve this, though, is a matter of some disagreement.

jmccorm2• 7 years ago

A nonprofit corporation is one answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation

But if you’re not being literal when you ask about values beyond profit, then as an easy example: Valve. They believe in promoting PC gaming and moving it forward. I think their service (and products) represents that value fairly well, and sometimes at the expense of profit.

sukilot5• 7 years ago

You expect Apple to do something that the US government isn't even capable of?

cpursley19• 7 years ago

Get over yourself. The USA overthrew and annexed Hawaii a little more than 100 years ago. Not to mention Texas, Puerto Rico, etc.

When we start talking about giving back those territories, I'll start taking everyone's opinion on Crimea seriously.

larnmar2• 7 years ago

Giving them back to whom, exactly? Texas voted to join the US, Puerto Rico has repeatedly had independence referenda, and Hawaii is... complicated, but you certainly couldn’t argue that the unelected Hawaiian monarchy was a more legitimate government than the elected US government (also Hawaiian independence polls at around 6%).

Barrin92• 7 years ago

they will do literally anything in return for market access.

I don't really see the issue in this case because borders are legal fictions and thus for contested borders between major factions there is no single source of truth, so the most accurate thing is indeed simply to display to Russian users the state of the map as understood by Russians and to other parties the way they see it.

pishpash2• 7 years ago

Yes, leave it as a locale customization, like how you write your dates.

gfiorav• 7 years ago

Not really surprised to see this behaviour from Apple. They've also blocked LGBTI watchfaces in Russia. I know all other companies do this too, but I wonder: If Apple can't do it... then who can? We need some bravery.

w0mbat• 7 years ago

Back in the 90s when I was at a small BBC spin-off writing 3D Atlas (published by EA) we'd periodically get orders from EA to mark Tibet or Taiwan as part of China, or attribute Kashmir to India or Pakistan or something, apparently required for a particular localized version. It was a more innocent time, and we'd always tell them to fuck off.

lawnchair_larry4• 7 years ago

Why are people under the impression that Crimea is not part of Russia?

macinjosh3• 7 years ago

Some people like to reject reality and substitute their own. :shrug:

ponsin2• 7 years ago

I don't know the specifics of Crimea that well but there should be some easy heuristics to see who owns what country. - When items are sold, which country collects sales tax? - Who provides the police, driver license, mail? - If there are elections, who to the people vote for?

Does Crimea not have simple answers to those questions?

sukilot5• 7 years ago

Government is a legal fiction. The answers are never simple.

vogre12• 7 years ago

It does.

Russia does it all.

ponsin2• 7 years ago

so then it seems stupid to not recognize reality just because we may not agree that it was good that Russia conquered Crimea.

basicplus2• 7 years ago

I can imagine that it would be much easier to convince a generation of people who believe Crimea is part of Russia to go to war to win back "their" territory.

One has to wonder if companies like Apple have considered such consequences.

macinjosh3• 7 years ago

Everyone knows electronic maps are for navigating through the world as it is but is not a place people tend to make their political statements, right?

Maps have changed in the past. They will change again in the future.

Paianni• 7 years ago

Why don't we just recognise territories by whomever happens to control them? Insisting on 'legitimate' states imposes politics onto world maps where it shouldn't be needed.

jdkee• 7 years ago

Alternative facts.

sidcool• 7 years ago

Genuine question. How should Apple decide what to show where? We being individuals, can take a stand, but how can a company take non neutral stand where there are grey areas? Because one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Should a business be in the business of Justice?

est• 7 years ago

Maybe the US state department should give a guideline about how countries should draw their maps so American companies can start follow them.

keymone9• 7 years ago

It may be that there was some reorganization at Apple because my friend From Ukraine yesterday told me she was forced to pick a different App Store on her phone and the only option available was Russia.

Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

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