Facebook to acquire CTRL-Labs, a startup for controlling computers with the mind

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-23/facebook-to-buy-startup-for-controlling-computers-with-your-mind

by Bostonian • 7 years ago

267 130 7 years ago

bloomberg.com

5trokerac3• 7 years ago

Makes sense, with their main business being the inverse.

jakelazaroff• 7 years ago

Ha, I came here to make the same joke.

the-dude• 7 years ago

Eco 101 : https://www.gwern.net/Complement

buboard9• 7 years ago

This seems fit to complete the loop, however it s redundant. FB already knows what you want to do with your computer

asdkhadsj• 7 years ago

Interesting that this is a tech I've wanted for ages, yet with these days of privacy issues where mere mouse behavior can lead to identifying signatures... I'm not letting anyone near my brain patterns.

I'll wear a tinfoil hat on this one.. but not knowing what possible behavioral/emotional/matchable patterns might exist in my waves is a bit terrifying. Thanks no thanks Facebook. If there even was a company I'd trust with my brain signature, it's sure as hell not you.

edit: I should note, it sounds like this is not specifically brain waves.. but still. My opinion in this arena doesn't change hah.

drusepth3• 7 years ago

I imagine this'll take an Oculus route: awesome tech bought by Facebook with an initial "I'm not giving Facebook my data!" backlash, followed by high-quality products that edge more and more into the market by actually being pretty good.

Hopefully (or not).

BOBOTWINSTON• 7 years ago

This is still one of the reasons I won't buy one of their headsets. Which sucks because the Quest is really cool, at least PC VR has better options/alternatives.

wavefunction• 7 years ago

Unfortunately Oculus lost me as a potential customer when facebook acquired them. Palmer Luckey's various misadventures reinforce this feeling for me.

tambourine_man3• 7 years ago

Oculus is still such a niche product though.

Most hardcore gamers I know (not many to be fair) think it's a gimmick.

From what I've heard dizziness is still a problem (motion sickness).

I for one just want some AR thing I can easily read text on.

mark_l_watson• 7 years ago

I agree. I actually started using FB again (to a small extent) because I bought an Oculus Go, then an Oculus Quest. The Quest is such a good product and some of the material produced for it is so very good, that it is something I am going to use.

est31• 7 years ago

Also note that this might not be a one way street. They might use brain machine interfaces to stimulate your brain according to the ads you are watching. E.g. you watch ads for beer and you get the feeling of beer taste on your mouth or you watch ads for bread and you get the smell of freshly baked bread, etc. Or when you are in a store, the implant will give you a serotonin kick when you foveate on a specific product (whose manufacturer paid for that kick). etc.

It's creepy af. But 20 years ago when you told someone about the privacy intrusions of smartphones, people would've been creeped out as well so I'm pessimist and saying it will come.

qnsi3• 7 years ago

Ctrl labs decode signal from your arm, no brain stimulation yet, but who knows what Facebook wants to do

state_less• 7 years ago

This tech has the potential to distort market forces to a significant degree. Somewhat similar to how cigarettes are harmful to the user, but the user wants to smoke them anyway due to the products impact on the brain.

New products may not get investment because the user is hopelessly attached to the old product through some a reward signal hardwired into their brain.

On the other hand, learning and studying could feel awesome with such tech. And mind altering substances might not be a requirement.

As we get more powerful tech, I think we should work towards ways of bending the tech toward positive outcomes.

fragmede• 7 years ago

Okay, Black Mirror. (mind you, I don't think the suspicion is unwarranted, especially when it comes to Facebook.) Optimistically though, targted TMS or some other brain affecting technology, could treat depression, ADHD, schizophrenia, anxiety, autism, or any other number of mental maladies. (To be clear, this is very much in the realm of science fiction, TMS is nowhere near this.)

nathanyz2• 7 years ago

When will we all learn that ad-supported versus paid products are just a variation of the Stanford marshmallow experiment.

Free, ad-supported products are all about short term gratification because it costs us nothing today. Instead if we consider the long term when making these choices, then an investment in a paid no tracking product would be a better decision.

The problem is that the experiment itself showed the majority chose the short term gratification.

dontblink• 7 years ago

Why is it exactly a better decision? Perhaps for you, but I see no issue with being targeted with ads that may have a higher probability of a conversion. Especially if I make the choice I don't want to pay or vice versa.

edmundsauto• 7 years ago

FYI, the Stanford marshmallow experiment was shown to be a bit more problematic as of some new research in 2018. The recent study suggests we drew the wrong conclusions from the original. The recent study also corresponds awfully conveniently to the modern zeitgeist, however, which may also be problematic.

ref: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmall...

goutham2688• 7 years ago

Neuralink mentioned they are looking at advertisements as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-vbh3t7WVI (its somewhere at the end where they answer questions)

frisco2• 7 years ago

We said we were not looking at ads and that ads would never be a part of a business model for people with access to our SDK.

etrautmann• 7 years ago

This misrepresents their position - which was that they were patient-first and would NOT be using advertising.

magna7• 7 years ago

Surveillance capitalism is going to get a lot more scary

throwaway122378• 7 years ago

Can we learn from our mistakes (Instagram, WhatsApp) and just block this.

throwaway1777• 7 years ago

The main difference is this isn’t an up and coming social network.

WilliamEdward3• 7 years ago

It's worse; facebook no longer have to play guessing games with what we text one another, and can instead have a direct interface to our actions and possibly thoughts.

LeonM• 7 years ago

Why was Whatsapp a mistake?

rpmisms2• 7 years ago

Allowing FB to have control of an otherwise awesome service.

Angostura• 7 years ago

For it to work fully it demands full access to ALL your contacts.

Facebook now knows the name, location and details of your bank, doctor, where you work, your family, your accountant, your psychotherapist etc.

elyobo2• 7 years ago

Letting something owned by Facebook anywhere near my mind is the last thing I'd want to do.

qnsi3• 7 years ago

It’s going on your arm not brain

uptown• 7 years ago

It's going on neither.

elyobo2• 7 years ago

The mind might be largely collocated with the brain, but I did specifically say mind :D Where the device goes is irrelevant to my concern; what it might be reading, and what I'd trust them to do with it, is not.

To be fair this concern is not only about Facebook, I'd have similar concerns now about anyone, but Facebook have already shown themselves to be bad actors. Fool me once, etc.

rejectedstone• 7 years ago

Has Black Mirror taught us nothing? ;)

stakhanov• 7 years ago

Seems fitting. They're already controling minds with their computers, why not close the loop :-)

i000• 7 years ago

Nice addition to their current technology controlling minds with computers!

pcora• 7 years ago

In a way, they are already on our minds with all the weird techniques they have to make people addicted to their stuff. But that is definitely going way too far.

Yuval_Halevi• 7 years ago

After cambridge analytica and Libra, I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg is the right person to own a this kind of technology

ravenstine• 7 years ago

He just wants to make the world more connected. /s

vlaaad• 7 years ago

There is a presentation about tech in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8pB8sNBGlE

Looks very interesting, but I would prefer it not to be owned by facebook.

Ajedi322• 7 years ago

This doesn't seem like a neural interface at all. Yes, technically the device is measuring neural activity, but it's measuring neural activity in your arm, not in your brain. In effect, this seems to be way closer to gesture control than it is to a neural interface.

If that's all they're doing, the title of this post is very misleading (and consequently, most of the comments in this thread are irrelevant).

buboard9• 7 years ago

yep. it's totally a surface electromyography device that feeds into a neural network to recognize the gesture you are making from your wrist. There are alternatives of course, such as gesture recognition from a camera. This is interesting regardless, but wonder how useful it is. Gesture recognition is not new , it's just has not surpassed other input devices yet.

dclowd9901• 7 years ago

This doesn't look as interesting as described in the article. It looks like it's just reading muscle electrical signals, and that movement is required to make it work. I mean, isn't that just a Power Glove?

kaibee• 7 years ago

and that movement is required to make it work.

Did you watch the full video? They show someone playing Asteroids without any movement. Movement is not required.

avip• 7 years ago

So it'll be like voice control where I have to speak slowly and clearly, hide my accent, control my pronunciation... just to get Siri to tell me the weather... but with my thoughts? I don't even know how to think slowly and clearly.

logicprog• 7 years ago

What's funny is with Siri and Google Assistant I can mumble barely-intelligibly and they understand exactly what I'm saying. I guess I should thank my lack of an accent?

19CTO• 7 years ago

Sounds like a very interesting tech. I'm curious if the Facebook brand is the right place for it though. Facing public scrutiny I don't think many people trust Facebook anymore to share the intricate info of their lives.

michannne• 7 years ago

I have still never owned an Oculus Rift simply because it is owned by Facebook and while I can't know for sure what they are doing with data collected, I can try my best to not walk straight into the fire. Maybe it would actually be better for Facebook to spin off an acquisitions/ventures arm associated with the main company as loosely as possible, and leave out data and privacy concerns by not using any data from their ventures until they are wholly incorporated into the Facebook business, but I'm no legal expert and Facebook is definitely not the type of company that would stay it's hand at an opportunity of collecting even more data

Allvitende• 7 years ago

Agreed. If they were smart, they would break themselves up as Alphabet did in preparation for future investigations etc.

They could then acquire companies more "quietly".

Mark should also take a page from Larry's book and transition to the background more while lettings someone else run Facebook.

corobo• 7 years ago

I don't think Facebook is able to get away with that, at least not as easily.

With Google my #1 concern is they'll shut it down. With Facebook I know it's going to sniff up all my data it can get its grubby hands on (which is also the #2 concern with Google if the product survives)

In any case on the subject I don't want anything but my own hardware processing anything thought related. That is not something the cloud should be involved in

imglorp2• 7 years ago

For those that buy Oculus Rift headsets in the near future, you might want to start looking for metal contacts in the headband where it touches your skin.

tudelo• 7 years ago

Are you suggesting they will secretly put this technology in to oculus headsets?

baby• 7 years ago

The Oculus Quest is much better imo

sergiosgc• 7 years ago

It's strange not to see Valve's offerings referred when people talk about holding out on Oculus VR. The original Vive is a great device, and the Index is the current king of the hill, in this area (pricey, though, unless you compare it to an iPhone).

justforfunhere• 7 years ago

Ok, this is the kind of tech I would like to see come up and mature in the coming ten-twenty years.

Having dozens of employees and four years of development period with VC money suggests that they have something more than just a POC.

With any great technology/innovation, the next obvious question always is, how can it be used at a mass scale, so that it gets accepted as just another part of a person's life. To put it another way, how can it be assimilated into the common services/products that we consume in our daily lives. Only then it will produce the value that it's makers were hoping for.

So what kind of void could this technology fill?

That depends on the vision of the creators and those who own it. I guess, if it was Apple that was buying this startup, we would see very different end usage of it.

If it was Google, we would see something absolutely different. If it was Amazon, who knows what they might use it for?

But since it is Facebook, we have to feel a bit apprehensive.

Because what is it that Facebook intends to do in long term? What is it's vision? Being one of the biggest tech companies in the World right now, it is of paramount importance that we know what do they intend to do with the tech they acquire?

And this tech could be revolutionary! It is the kind of stuff that we read in Sci-Fi. Hope they make something good/useful out of it.

WilliamEdward3• 7 years ago

Facebook will try to use it to make profit in favour of using it to benefit people, which is what automative technologies should be for. That is the nature of the beast, and in facebook's case making profit ends disastrously, as opposed to any other particular company.

bryan_w• 7 years ago

Oculus connect 6 is tomorrow and Thursday. You should watch the keynotes to get an idea about what they will do with this

WilliamEdward3• 7 years ago

The technology they produce itself is pretty decent, but in the hands of facebook this is one step away from being a dystopian nightmare.

jchook• 7 years ago

David Brin’s (sci-fi) version sits in your mouth and detects minute muscle movements to determine which words you are thinking of saying.

joestr• 7 years ago

I'd have called it CTRL ALT Labs, but other than that this is pretty terrifying.

oceliker• 7 years ago

uses a bracelet to measure neuron activity in a subject’s arm to determine movement that person is thinking about, even if they aren’t physically moving

I don't understand how this could possibly work with an armband. They presumably are reading electrical signals from motor neurons, but why do they fire if there's no movement? Is it possible that they are detecting incredibly small movements that are involuntarily caused by thinking about moving your hand?

martin_a• 7 years ago

This sounds straight like future-future-tech. My Fitbit can't even measure my heartbeat or steps with sufficient precision and they want to measure electric signals from neurons? Sounds (yet) impossible.

qnsi3• 7 years ago

They had demos online. Unless they faked those

mncolinlee• 7 years ago

It's not even that new. A professor was using a much earlier version of this same tech to steer his boat in the 90's. It was very easy to read left and right signals to control a rudder as a prototype.

There have been commercialized versions of this tech already. The Myo was Kickstarted in 2015 and then acquired by CTRL-Labs. I have one and that generation of the tech was still tricky to use effectively.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/312488939/myowaretm-har...

Here's a pretty decent paper on the quite long history of Brain-Machine Interfaces: https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00027.20...

tashoecraft3• 7 years ago

That's exactly what's doing. If you just think about moving your hand, pinching, whatever, then you are sending signals down that can be read.

buboard9• 7 years ago

if you were sending signals the muscle would move.

tomp• 7 years ago

They demonstrate (fake?) it in this video:

https://youtu.be/oD4efk8T2X4?t=83

(I linked to the specific time when it starts.)

swordsmith• 7 years ago

This is typical marketing speak. The device is measuring EMG. The motor neurons can fire without causing overt/obvious muscle movements, and these can be picked up still.

turc1656• 7 years ago

Definitely one of the top 10 most terrifying headlines I've ever seen.

api2• 7 years ago

Of all companies Facebook should be kept as far as possible from any kind of Neuralink type interface.

We are literally going to lobotomize our species in a quest to get people to click ads.

tenebrisalietum• 7 years ago

Could it not be said that people who are so in to Facebook that they would like and want this are already (self-)lobotomized to a degree, by whatever factors make people revel in boring social stuff/ignorance and not wish to pursue higher knowledge or goals?

I mean most of Facebook seems to be:

20% of

- saying "I was at this location"

- pictures of food

- pictures of people's kids

- pictures of people at events like concerts, family gatherings, etc.

- complaining about traffic/weather/money

and 80% of

- reports of memes

People whose Facebook interaction is pretty much just the above, which is probably the majority, aren't really going to achieve much more in life without Facebook, whether it's reading your brain or not.

api2• 7 years ago

Pictures of kids for viewing by grandparents and relatives is literally the only legitimate use of Facebook as far as I'm concerned. It's basically an over-engineered photo sharing service.

pulkitsh12342• 7 years ago

Relevant post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21039955

What I think FB is probably going to use it for:

* Some sort of peripheral to "unlock" advanced features in FB, which will basically give them a never-ending stream of neural-data to train models on.

* Ad impressions, no need to track clicks anymore, if user reacted to it in a "positive" manner they will be getting a cut.

* Bundle with Oculus (Something like: https://youtu.be/D8pB8sNBGlE?t=638)

mattrp• 7 years ago

agreed - this is all about improving ad engagement metrics. If they can demonstrate that the user was engaged even if they didn't click the ad, then the acquisition is worth the $500m-$1b they reportedly paid for it. I also see the wrist band as becoming linked to payment / libra functionality -- that way it's always on the user and it opens fb to greater awareness in the physical world as well. It's funny how the tech future is finally materializing just the point where we are realizing that instead of utopia, it is turning out to be an utterly repulsive sci-fi nightmare.

wonderwonder• 7 years ago

After acquisition: "You know how you created a system to control a computer with a mind? Well we want you to keep doing that, just the other way around."

GistNoesis2• 7 years ago

As a D&D fan I enjoy associating companies with creatures. This acquisition fits the picture well. Let's see if you can associate each FAANG with its creature. Dragon, Lich, Illithid, Beholder, Djinn

gaogao• 7 years ago

Facebook - Beholder (Obvious)

Apple - Dragon (Pile of gold. Ancient. Has good variants.)

Amazon - Lich (Seeks to conquer everything)

Netflix - Djinn (Not actually as scary as the rest.)

Google - Illithid

GistNoesis2• 7 years ago

Almost :) I swap F&G.

With the article hint about mind reading, mind flayers (or Illithid) connect their minds together in huge cities. They are also famous for manipulating minds with their psionic abilities.

Beholders have plenty of (non-googly) eyes and look everywhere, gather ancient knowledge, gather various artifacts, but usually don't care about you except for when they zap you for coming too close.

Djinn are masters of illusions rocking you with dreams while they drain you.

The lich (or maybe semi-lich soon) is in the business of dealing time. He has a special relationship with time, which allows him to trade advantageously to fill its boundless ambitions.

The cash hoarding behavior and love of beautiful shiny things is indeed a characteristic of dragons.

rpmisms2• 7 years ago

Help, facebook was reading the old joke headlines again.

projectramo• 7 years ago

The best part is it is totally free.

In order to activate the band, you simply imagine yourself buying a product from one of the advertising partners.

dogman12332• 7 years ago

Source, BSidesLV presentation on Brain-Machine Interfaces: - for those in the know (basically, a bunch of PhD labs and a few private companies, small network of people), FB's efforts with this have achieved `read` capabilities, and the thought is they have have achieved `write`.

TecoAndJix• 7 years ago

Hey - off topic but what do you think of BSides? There is one soon in my area and have been on the fence about attending. Is it hit or miss on location?

dogman12332• 7 years ago

yeah def location dependent. BSidesLV is the mothership, few other cities do big ones as well.

Conversely, an underdeveloped BSides local to you is a good opportunity for you to get involved and make a name for yourself in the local sec scene.

kristopolous• 7 years ago

New frontiers for how to commodify and sell you

ingsoc793• 7 years ago

As someone who works with EMG, the hype CTRL-Labs has been pushing regarding their tech is over-the-top ridiculous.

In short, it's a wearable band that uses electrodes to measure your forearm muscles' activity (electromyography, or EMG), coupled with accelerometers to capture motion. It's awesome technology, but contrary to all the "neuro" buzzword bingo, you can't "control computers with your mind" – you have to physically contract the muscles in your forearm, just like if you were using a mouse or keyboard. This video gives you an idea of what the device is actually capable of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD4efk8T2X4

Either way, it's exciting to see this kind of tech make it into the consumer space. Even if it doesn't catch on with AR/VR, it will have a lot of positive effects for researchers as well as for users with accessibility and mobility challenges.

anaisbetts2• 7 years ago

Whether you have to move your muscles isn't so important, the goal here is to create a control surface that is usable in VR/AR, which this technology can totally still do.

Walking down the street with AR glasses right now sucks because you can't actually do anything without disruptive gestures (holding your hand to your face, talking out loud to nobody, etc). If you could tell the glasses what to do simply by making small imperceptible movements in your hand, that's a huge leap forward towards making AR actually something usable

buboard9• 7 years ago

the question is if this device is more expressive than , say, wearing a glove.

ingsoc793• 7 years ago

No doubt it's an interesting product, and if they provide a good SDK for it then a lot of researchers and tinkerers will be happy :).

buboard9• 7 years ago

Despite not being a brain-reading interface, it's indeed very interesting that the device exists. I wonder if there is such a small emg reader that one can buy and tinker with, as this one seems to be tied to their developer software and apis (and will probably be tied to their cloud as is everything today)

ingsoc793• 7 years ago

The MyoWare sensor is a popular component for DIY projects (https://www.adafruit.com/product/2699?gclid=CJLytM3U0dICFQGT...).

pulkitsh12342• 7 years ago

They claim to detect the neuron action potential (without any physical muscle movements), the relevant section from their demonstration which is pretty cool: https://youtu.be/D8pB8sNBGlE?t=730

So, it's not just the forearm muscles' activity, but the actual neuron impulses.

frisco2• 7 years ago

There is no chance they are detecting extracellular action potentials with their giant skin surface electrodes. This is 100% EMG, which is a potential produced by muscle tissue. They might be able to detect very subtle EMG signals that don't correspond to visual movement, but they for sure aren't detecting APs.

drewda• 7 years ago

"Facebook to acquire CTRL-Labs, a startup for controlling computers with the ~~mind~~ brain"

buboard9• 7 years ago

technically all personal computers are controlled with the brain

neonate• 7 years ago

https://outline.com/tnfGyL

0xADADA• 7 years ago

This app requires new permissions: Will you grant Facebook permission to access your thoughts?

vchak1• 7 years ago

For a moment, I read that as controlling minds with the computer, and thought: Wait, Facebook does that already!

honkycat• 7 years ago

I love fancy/zany new HCI stuff, and I have been waiting for the CTRL-Labs product to come out for a LONG time.

In my head, the compromises CTRL-Labs are making is brilliant and I believe it can create a compelling product.

This could FINALLY be the keyboard killer. I would love something I can walk and use easily, use from a reclining position, and avoid having to use my hands for typing while programming.

I have bad wrist pain from typing all day, so I am sure to use only ergonomic keyboards and mice and take frequent brakes. Not having to deal with that would be great.

Alonski• 7 years ago

I built a Smart House system "mind" controlled by EEG made specifically for ALS patients 8 years ago. https://youtu.be/mQrytBbSbsA

I'd like to be bought please.

Facebook to acquire CTRL-Labs, a startup for controlling computers with the mind

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