Apple Pay will support NFC tags

https://twitter.com/SteveMoser/status/1127949077432426496

by smoser • 7 years ago

78 59 7 years ago

smoser• 7 years ago

From a user's point of view this seems great. No need to wait for congested LTE to download an app in order to pay for a scooter or parking.

I'm curious about the security implications of this though. Seems like it would be easy to make a NFC sticker "skimmer" that you sticker over the official sticker.

heavymark• 7 years ago

I assume will only work with approved partners not with any nfc sticker.

cryptonector• 7 years ago

When the universe of approved partners is large enough, the security considerations will be non-trivial.

dogma11383• 7 years ago

It’s already easy enough now however it doesn’t work in reality.

It doesn’t scale due to limits.

And it doesn’t work as easily as credit cards as you will have to go trough the Apple Pay merchant KYC process for these to be billable which means you will have to verify your business.

Credit card skimming works because the stolen details can be used anywhere in the world and the cash is pretty much immediately transferred.

They can also be used to buy physical goods which can then be resold.

You can’t do the same with NFC tags.

floatingatoll• 7 years ago

You still have to double-tap the device hardware button in a manner that software cannot emulate to accept the NFC attempt.

randyrand• 7 years ago

You’d think if it was that important they have accepted visa by now then.

But I agree this is nice. convenient.

NikkiA• 7 years ago

What is written: > Imagine tapping your phone on a scooter or a parking-meter and paying for it without signing up or downloading an app first.

What I read:

Imagine putting your phone down on the bar and being charged $1000 by some anonymous dude that hid a NFC tag there while noone was looking.

Basically, the entire planet is now 'fair game' as a skimmer.

metabren• 7 years ago

I imagine they will have thought of this — there's probably an authorization step like Face/Touch ID or entering your Apple ID password.

jwr• 7 years ago

Huh? Apple pay requires double-tapping the power button and then authenticating with Face ID before the payment gets processed. Where did you get the idea that you can get charged automatically by "some anonymous dude"?

foota• 7 years ago

I think there point is that you might not be able to verify the identity of the person you're paying. Like you might intend to pay someone but the nfc sticker has been overridden.

Someone2• 7 years ago

As others said, chances are the phone will still show you a payment takes place, allowing you to reject it, presumably while showing the amount to be paid and the payee.

I would also guess that:

- the first payment to a new payee to have a bit more UI.

- the phone’s setting to contain settings such as max amount to be paid per week or month, and max amount to be paid in one transaction.

- those tags to have some cryptographic signature with Apple vetting those wanting to get a key. A service like this can be highly successful if only a limited number of companies (¿a few hundred?) can produce such tags.

- Apple acting as an intermediary between iOS user and payee to protect their user’s privacy.

It also is possible that Apple will withhold payment for a few days or even weeks, to give time to detect and correct fraudulent transactions, and give its customers time to challenge payments.

If such challenges are handled by always repaying the iOS user, this won’t be more dangerous than allowing selected companies to withdraw money from your bank account whenever they see fit, something that millions of people in the world do because it is so convenient.

For example, if Londoners enable auto top up for their Oyster card (https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/link/sso/0002.do), transport for London could transfer £1000 from their bank account the next day, even if they destroy that card seconds after signing up.

I would even expect that they can do that from any bank account even if it’s owner hasn’t applied for auto top up, or even has an Oyster card. This system is built on trust.

johnnycab• 7 years ago

if Londoners enable auto top up for their Oyster card, transport for London could transfer £1000 from their bank account the next day, even if they destroy that card seconds after signing up

This statement is sensationalist and not true, as the maximum load on a Oyster Card is £90.

coldtea2• 7 years ago

You still agree on the built in dialog, and sign with your finger/face id. You just don't need a special app for it.

post_break2• 7 years ago

Can it write to NFC? That's the golden goose for me. I have to use an android phone to write to NFC so my iPhone can read them and do things.

saagarjha• 7 years ago

No, there exists no public API to do this.

theshrike79• 7 years ago

This is essentially just a fancy QR code.

The tag contains the data who the payment is for and how much the payment is. You could do the exact same thing with QR, but with more fussing and aiming and worrying about the amount of light and whether the image is dirty or not.

bluetidepro• 7 years ago

I think the key is proximity, I believe. Like with a QR code, you could hypothetically take a picture of it and have that QR code be used anywhere. With this, you have to actually be in proximity to use it, I believe, which adds value in some contexts.

LeoPanthera• 7 years ago

Is it not possible to clone NFC tags?

ksec• 7 years ago

This is essentially just a fancy QR code.

But with much better UX and Security. QR Code does have its uses, but for many things it is the wrong solution.

zulln• 7 years ago

Security

xenospn3• 7 years ago

QR code requires at least one more step which is using the camera. Hopefully this will be just a single tap and confirm.

tetrisgm4• 7 years ago

It’s not, you have to double tap the power button to invoke Apple Pay.

return12• 7 years ago

Why not both? It could be awesome from micropayments on a browser

MBCook• 7 years ago

Apple Pay on the web already exists. And it’s already fantastic.

cwt137• 7 years ago

What are some of the non-payment applications of this new found support?

xenospn3• 7 years ago

Any kind of “attach this physical device to your application/service/account on your phone”

penagwin2• 7 years ago

None, iPhones already can read (but not write due to lack of apple providing an API for it) NFC tags. This announcement is that Apple Pay will support it as well.

jhrmnn• 7 years ago

I vaguely remember that Yubikeys with NFC cannot be used with iPhones (only with Android phones) because of some limitation related to NFC tags. So perhaps after this update, it will be possible.

hallman76• 7 years ago

Two obvious location-based things that could benefit from NFC: - event registration - punching a time clock

I'd argue that Apple's lack of NFC support effectively stifled any would-be innovators from even exploring the possibilities.

philo23• 7 years ago

I think a more accurate title might be "Apple Pay announces support for NFC tags", as NFC in general has been supported since the iPhone 7, but read-only.

dang• 7 years ago

Ok, added. Thanks!

arrty88• 7 years ago

Just in time for NYC subway electronic payments!

dstaley• 7 years ago

Google actually demoed the same approach three years ago. [1] Hopefully now that Apple is doing it, Android developers will finally implement it as well.

[1] https://www.greenbot.com/article/3072233/zip-pow-google-show...

divan3• 7 years ago

I wonder if NFC chip implants people usually put in their hands can be rewritten to work with this. That would be pretty dope to accept payments from people just by asking them to tap your hand :)

post_break2• 7 years ago

You can use NFC to trigger the shortcuts app, so I'm sure Square cash could add the functionality into it.

return12• 7 years ago

i mean, you can just implant it in your wallet, don't need a freaking surgery

divan3• 7 years ago

Right, but it's not a surgery, they're implanted using syringe implanter and it's fairly easy and fast procedure.

tetrisgm4• 7 years ago

Sure. It’s really just a url though. Nothing fancy going on: url says pay for this item and call Apple Pay.

divan3• 7 years ago

Nice! If it's really just URL, that'll work for sure.

fma• 7 years ago

92% of people in China use WeChat pay as their primary payment method. Why can't/doesn't the US adopt a QR code payment system?

https://www.businessinsider.com/alipay-wechat-pay-china-mobi...

pertymcpert4• 7 years ago

Why not use NFC instead? You don't have to get your phone out and focus the camera, just hold it near the sensor. Works with wearables too like Apple Watch. NFC is just better.

paranoidrobot• 7 years ago

Because cameras are cheap, ubiquitous, and pretty much just as fast.

If you rely on NFC, then on Apple devices you need Apple's blessing - and for financial transactions that means Apple Pay only, you don't get access to install applications in the secure element of the NFC chip in the phone.

eg my bank installed a virtual contactless Visa/Mastercard on my Android device that worked with everything long before Google/Android Pay was a thing, and without Google getting a slice of the transaction. Transit systems can install their own virtual transit card on Android too.

kalleboo2• 7 years ago

Japan has had mobile NFC payments for over a decade now (back to the dumbphone era), and while it's heavily adopted by chain stores; smaller shops, restaurants and bars have never really adopted it due to the onerous setup, hardware, etc.

In the past 6 months or so (so basically overnight), a QR payment system (PayPay) has gotten massive adoption. They did this in two ways: a massive expensive signup campaign (20% cashback on all purchases deal), and the fact that any tiny back-alley bar can just install the app, link their bank account, and print out a QR code and now they're accepting payments.

The big advantage for QR is the quick and cheap deployment process.

shalmanese• 7 years ago

The cost of adoption of payees is drastically lower with QR codes. Anyone who wants to receive payments just has to print out a 10c laminated QR code and they're on the network. This helped bootstrap the network and drive mass adoption.

tetrisgm4• 7 years ago

We have no functional equivalent where one platform controls most of the consumer internet. The closest would be Facebook, but most people wouldn’t like the idea of doing payments through the platform (for now). In addition, Venmo has pretty board reach.

tetrisgm4• 7 years ago

Interesting. I remember doing experiments with this on my Nokia C7 (one of their last Symbian 3 phones) back in 2011. The vision of tapping nfc stickers / POS systems hasn’t really materialized since, but hopefully this helps. From my discussions with various store owners, the adoption has been difficult because changing your POS system is really painful. Hopefully this introduces an option where the problem is sidestepped entirely.

viraptor• 7 years ago

The vision of tapping nfc stickers / POS systems hasn’t really materialized

In the US. Many other countries are using NFC payments on their phones for years.

Apple Pay will support NFC tags

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