Tell HN: I just wanted to say: thank you, Hacker News

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16640599

by d33d33 • 8 years ago

799 131 8 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

a few years ago i posted a question:

Ask HN: Chances for Restarting a Career in CS @ 30+ ? ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7997624 )

after reading all the answers and recommendations, i decided to study CS in 2015.

it was quite challenging in every sense: time/money management, high drop-out rates (~80% fail or stop studying cs at my university), lack of math skills - school was far far away.

now, i finished it and i can say, i definitely don't regret it. it sharpened my mind and changed my mindset in a positive way. i've got absolutely no problems finding job offers (mainly as consultat or junior software engineers (i.e. IBM)) although i am now in my mid-thirties.

thank you, hn community

joslin01• 8 years ago

Nice job, comp sci degree is not easy but man does it set you up for success

antonius• 8 years ago

Good job. I received a degree in finance and ended up not wanting to go into banking so I went back and got my CS degree. Like you said, looking back it was definitely worth all the time and effort.

overthemoon• 8 years ago

Congratulations! Did you work full time while in school? Is this in the US or Germany? I've thought about school, I'd love to get a formal education, but I just landed my first job and I probably won't end up doing it.

robeastham• 8 years ago

Well done you! Though 30 is not that old, I've never believed that old adage about old dogs. Grit, determination, self belief and a positive outlook are some of the main ingredients required to change course in life. Sacrifice will most likely be required too if the change of course is more than 45 degrees.

jackhack• 8 years ago

I remember that question/conversation. So pleased it worked out.

Mind sharing a few thoughts about your experience as an "older" student? Any surprises about the coursework/assignments/fellow students?

Comparing my oldest child's recent university experience to mine (in the 70s) it's like a different world. Much more paper submission & grading online, much more 'handholding' and support from the instructors, more teamwork assignments, less reading.

Thanks again for the followup, and congrats!!!

samayylmao• 8 years ago

I"m working on a BS in Software Development at 27. I 100% agree with the hand holding statement. It feels to me like universities are lowering expectations so students pass rather than fail them. I know one individual who is a senior in this Software Development program who doesn't understand basic concepts but his professors have been passing him. I don't think this benefits the student, school, or society. In fact, if anything it devalues education.

I am curious if this is an isolated situation at my university or if this trend is more secular.

WonkeyMonkey• 8 years ago

I've also noticed this trend, at my university and from what I hear many from the region I'm in. I don't think that it is an isolated event.

In many classes attendance makes up a comparable portion of grades as tests, which means in order to pass classes you need attendance points and class assignments, many of which are "effort based", so in most cases one can fail 75% of tests and still pass with decent grades.

50something19• 8 years ago

It is so much easier being a student now, mostly because of the amazing resources available online. In the bad old days, if you didn't understand a topic and had a bad professor, you were screwed. Today, a two second search will find lectures, articles, blog posts, free books, SO answers... It's amazingly better.

The tradeoff of ease is the huge variety and diversity of knowledge to learn. A CS degree in ML can have a completely different curriculum than a CS degree in algorithms or web design or OS/systems/databases. There is much more to learn.

westoque2• 8 years ago

it was quite challenging in every sense: time/money management, high drop-out rates (~80% fail or stop studying cs at my university), lack of math skills - school was far far away.

This is where a mentor I believe does a great job. I know people that had a hard time learning because they don't have someone guiding them. Some aspects, like say, async programming or memory management could be hard to grasp by yourself but when someone explains it well, then it everything starts to come together. That's why when I'm teaching I always tell people to understand the concepts first cause you'll only learn it once and it will help you understand the pieces better.

WilliamSt• 8 years ago

Any tips on finding a good mentor?

westoque2• 8 years ago

Personally, the best mentor I had was my first manager at my first job. He did really well for himself now and probably could retire (he's in his mid 30's).

But how I found mentors naturally was hang out at a place called Hacker Dojo here in Silicon Valley. Since they often had free JavaScript classes and meetups, I took advantage of that to make connections and eventually found mentors/friends and people in general that help you out.

nemild• 8 years ago

That's awesome, and an inspiration.

And I really encourage you to find a good team (rather than just focusing on salary), it'll really level you up quickly — and set you up for lots of good opportunities as the years go by.

Jesus_Jones• 8 years ago

Glad to hear it worked out for you! I think there's a lot of potential for people who non-traditional students who are capable of focusing on science, math, logic, getting retrained into CS and have a good career. We definitely need more people in the field, and I'm sure you bring a slightly different perspective coming in at a little bit later age.

50something19• 8 years ago

I am finishing my bachelors in CompSci at Harvard Extension and just got hired by Google. And I've got about 20 years on you. So yeah, absolutely, this can work!

It was fun and challenging competing with top computer science students. In the long run, my organizational skills, focus, determination and world experience outweighed their raw brainpower and better memory.

It's an ultramarathon, not a sprint.

dman• 8 years ago

That is inspiring!

eganist2• 8 years ago

just got hired by Google. And I've got about 20 years on you.

As impressive as your achievement is, I'm equally impressed that Google finally started addressing their perceived ageism problem.

50something19• 8 years ago

Google must be doing something right in their candidate triage algorithms. I applied for one job and they suggested another that was a better fit, which I hadn't even considered.

I applied to a bunch of places and only Google seemed to perceive the whole package instead of myopically focusing on my recent education or last job. The whole process was much smarter than any other company in the interview cycle.

fancyfacebook• 8 years ago

Yeah one anecdote, ageism must be solved! Good job Google, we did it!

You see why people criticize the orange site for worshiping corporate a bit too much?

mkagenius• 8 years ago

n the long run, my organizational skills, focus, determination and world experience outweighed their raw brainpower and better memory.

Great. Would love to hear more of the story.

50something19• 8 years ago

A lot of it was stuff that is basic to someone with years of work experience:

* Start assignments as soon as they are given out. Stupid, right?

* Don't be shy about asking lots of questions. Don't be egotistical or afraid about asking for clarification.

* Build personal relationships with the professors and TAs. They are there to help. This is not an adversarial relationship. Show genuine passion for the material.

* Find real-world analogies or applications of the theory. An intuitive understanding is far more important memorization. It is also far more motivational. By seeing how a technique can be used to solve a real problem, the value becomes tangible.

* Be curious. You are there to learn, which means digging beyond the provided material. So many students are sadly focused on the grade or assignment, not on the learning.

I could probably write a book about this...

Edit: formatting

wikibob3• 8 years ago

I’d love to hear more about this. You feel it was worth the cost?

Did you do all classes online or did you go in person for some / all?

Did you work in technology previously?

50something19• 8 years ago

You feel it was worth the cost?

Harvard Extension is a bargain compared to most colleges. $1500-$2500 for most 4 credit classes. Don't tell those smart college students that you are getting the same class for less than half the price. I tried the online thing (Coursera, edX, Udemy, etc.) but was never as motivated as competing against real students in a real class with deadlines that have consequences. Fear of failure is a great motivator :)

Did you do all classes online or did you go in person for some / all?

It was a mix. The online classes were more time efficient. The person classes built rewarding personal relationships with faculty and older students.

Did you work in technology previously?

Yes, was primarily self taught. Only had access to a lousy community college in my teens. Turned me off school then.

ilamont• 8 years ago

I'm also a grad of the Extension School, although not in CS. In-class instruction is fantastic for certain programs, with access to Harvard faculty, instructors, and other resources. I've blogged about it extensively here: http://harvardextended.blogspot.com/

Some undergraduate and graduate programs enable Extension students to attend Harvard College or GSAS classes. I don't remember the requirements/restrictions, but look up "special student" status on the HES website for details.

towndrunk• 8 years ago

This is so great to hear! I don't know who you are but I'm proud of you.

pure_ambition2• 8 years ago

Awesome! I’m considering doing the same - Harvard Extension.

Is there a reason you chose to do the bachelors program over the masters?

50something19• 8 years ago

I didn't have any prior degree so I couldn't go straight to masters. Not even any transfer credits. But I was able to test out (via CLEP) for the equivalent of 4 classes including the language requirement, which saved me a semester.

codezero4• 8 years ago

Were you working while you got your degree, or did you pursue it full-time?

50something19• 8 years ago

I was fortunate enough to be in a situation where I could pursue it full time. I started part time, really liked it, and decided to complete it full time.

ApolloRising• 8 years ago

How long did this take you? I was considering something like this and would love it if you could tell us about your experience doing this remotely.

50something19• 8 years ago

It took three years. As I mentioned elsewhere, I tested out of a semester of work. Unlike undergrads, I was used to working year round, so I took January term and summer classes to reduce elapsed time.

While some remote students have been able to build quality relationships with professors, it is far easier if you are local.

DGAP• 8 years ago

I didn't realize that this was even an option - are there any other well regarded online Masters programs in CS, infosec, or software development I should be aware of?

50something19• 8 years ago

I don't why Coursera gets so much attention for an online CS masters when it has been available for years at Harvard. Even Stanford relaxed the prior constraint of being in a member company for their online masters in CompSci.

http://scpd.stanford.edu/admissions/apply-and-enroll/master%...

technofiend• 8 years ago

Yes! The Georgia Tech online master's is priced at their cost to deliver the courses: ~$7k.

https://newatlas.com/georgia-tech--graduate-computer-science...

rnet85• 8 years ago

What kind of a role were you hired for? Is it a pure SDE role or a product/solutions engineer kinda role? I've seen Google largely prefers people with 6 ~ 12 yrs exp for SDE roles.

masters3d• 8 years ago

Can you provide a link to this program? Is it on campus or online? Thanks

50something19• 8 years ago

It was the standard Harvard Extension ALB [0]. You can optionally choose a Field of Study, which was CompSci in my case. And then if you qualify as a special student you can take almost any course in the college or grad school. It's a very flexible program. You get out what you put in.

[0] https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academics/undergraduate-de...

KB• 8 years ago

Really great achievement and welcome to Google. If you're based in Cambridge, we should try to grab lunch sometime. My ldap is kbolton.

d--b• 8 years ago

Awesome. Congrats!

That said, it was kind of clear from your original post that you were headed in the right direction! Hell, just reading/asking Hacker news meant you already had two feet in the community :-)

stevepm• 8 years ago

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your degree?

danso• 8 years ago

Reading this made my day. Thank you for sharing!

kyoji• 8 years ago

Thanks for sharing this, I just turned 30 and started a CompSci Master's track 1.5 years ago. Very encouraging to hear your success!

aezell• 8 years ago

Interesting. Here I am trying to figure out what I can do to get out of technology at 40+.

Congrats on finishing school!

6ak74rfy• 8 years ago

What's your story?

mmsimanga• 8 years ago

I have just gone opposite route. I turn 42 this year and just started job in a more technical role having spent 8 years in management. I moved into management because I was a very good developer. I don't think I was a bad manager, my teams did well and won awards. However, I couldn't stomach the endless meetings and admin tasks that came with being a manager. I carried on reading Hacker News trying to keep up with the latest trends instead of moving on to reading management and finance sites. In the end, despite the ageism stories abound I decided to go back to technology. Its been 3 weeks into the new job. I am appreciating the time I have to immerse myself in the technology. Good luck with your quest.

austincheney• 8 years ago

Is this age and sex bias a silicon valley problem?

I am nearly 40 and most of the developers I have worked with in the past 10+ years have always been older than me (aside from college new hires). They have also been 20-40% female. I have spent this time working in the Westlake, Irving, Plano technology corridor of north DFW.

I would like to hear what kind of demographics people encounter by geographic location. I always hear about age and sex bias online, but I simply don't see it in my area.

Dirlewanger• 8 years ago

Probably. I would say it's possibly just the market. Companies outside of the SVs/NYCs/Austins can't afford to be as picky because the talent pool isn't as large. Also probably because the SV culture isn't as pervasive in the industry as those in the HN bubble would have you believe.

dahdum• 8 years ago

SV skews young due to startups with low seed outlay. The risk and reward tends to attract young men[1], and then the culture that results continues that bias.

Established companies with good work-life balance, solid benefits, and internal advancement opportunities are much closer to your experience.

1 - Edit because I've been hammered for saying this before. Many studies have shown significantly increased financial, business, and physical risk taking in men. That's the type I'm referring to.

tezzer• 8 years ago

46 here, well employed and not worried. There are a lot of positions in Silicon Valley for older engineers. On the bias- most of the engineers who are my peers are men. The female engineers I've worked with in my 15 years in California have mostly been in project management, product management and test. Over 40 you may not get hired by any underfunded startups, but the 'old money' is still here and values experience over alma mater and 'dumb enough to work cheap'.

eikenberry3• 8 years ago

Is this age and sex bias a silicon valley problem?

From my experiences a lot of SV's ageism is not really that they won't hire older workers on principle, it is just that most of their worker are young due to local conditions and like attracts like. By 'local conditions' I mostly mean cost of living, everyone I know who has lived in SV moved away when they got older and wanted to start a family.

astro_robot• 8 years ago

Thanks for coming back and sharing your success! It's very inspiring for me. I just graduated with a Mechanical Engineering degree and debating going back for a CSE Bachelor's degree but unsure if it would be worth it.

spyhi2• 8 years ago

I don't know how it is in other schools, but at mine you can get a masters in CS even if you didn't do your undergrad in CS. They just have you take the core undergrad CS courses, which is about 1-1.5 years of work. With an ME, it might not even be that long. You should look into that before going for a second bachelor's.

wikibob3• 8 years ago

Which school?

hunter232• 8 years ago

You did something way bolder but I wanted to share another successful career restart story. I worked in tech startups in business roles (ops & product management) but was always excited about the engineering side. I decided to do a career restart at 32 and taught myself the basics of web development using Udacity and other web tutorials. I then went through a coding bootcamp and joined a mid size company.

It's been a great ride, I've worked for about 3 years on both the front end and back end. I've been promoted twice and have started becoming assigned as lead developer on some projects. Overall, I think I'm about 6 - 12 months away from being promoted to a senior developer. As others mentioned, my strong soft skills (being able to project manage myself, communicate effectively, estimate tasks well and honor my estimates) have made me very attractive in comparison to other candidates who have been programming since they were 12 but are much more difficult to work with. The ability to "get stuff done" is underrated.

Anyways, the main point is I am so happy with my career restart into programming at 32. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

artolus• 8 years ago

I am someone who has been 'programming since they were 12' and I worry about perhaps not being as well-rounded as you describe yourself. What kind of experiences that taught you the soft skills you mentioned would you recommend to someone like myself to become a more attractive engineer?

hunter232• 8 years ago

My suggestions would be to:

* take as many opportunities as you can in presenting to others. Public speaking skills are important * refine your skills in creating good product demos of your work * spend time writing concise and well structured documentation * Do some self reflection every time you get into a heated argument with a co-worker. Think about what you could have done better to prevent emotions from flaring up. The best engineers at my company are the ones who are really good at managing discussions * Make sure that any meeting you attend flows well. If people (including yourself) are meandering from the main point of the meeting then lead the group back to the main point. Take good notes. Make sure the meeting has an agenda. If it ends early then tell people they can leave rather so you can give back attendees time. If you have a shy person in the group pro-actively ask their opinion. On the same end if you have a verbose person in the group make sure to end their discussion if they are meandering. * Put yourself in your user's shoes as much as possible. Don't just evaluate a feature from a technical standpoint, but also a user standpoint. Your product manager will be happy that they can trust you to wear a "product manager" hat

pat_space• 8 years ago

Way to go, my friend! Best of luck in your career and life!

Ftuuky• 8 years ago

You have no idea how helpful to me it was reading your post. Congratulations my dude, godspeed!

wpmoradi• 8 years ago

This made my day, thank you! I am currently working on changing careers to CS.

jdlyga• 8 years ago

I love how pure Hacker News is. It's like Digg or Slashdot 10 years ago.

AIX2ESXI2• 8 years ago

Hi, I'm longtime lurker and was compelled to create a HN account for this topic. I'm in a similar position in my mid thirties; currently struggling with a heavy course load while working full time. Most weeks I seem to get most of my work done on the weekends and a occasional week night, struggling with the math classes though. I think I'm about thirty units away from transferring to the University I work for tuition free as 3rd year student.

As a sysadmin with tons of experience (rhcsa and aws certified by end of year) I'm tempted to just give up my studies and go work remote somewhere in a developing country since I love to travel. Though I remind myself an education is invaluable and that my university alumni is connected and full of prestige, I just imagine myself in Thailand making half of what I make and having a more enjoyable life as opposed to one I here in States.

Most of my lower division classes have been online at my local community college, but the math classes are not online and I have a hard time following the professor's lectures and getting to class early. Youtube lectures helps with some concepts, but I think I need to supplement my college math classes with an online program of some sort or a private math tutor.

Can anyone recommend some math online math courses that cover Algebra to Calculus please? Any tips that help with time management, focus and staying motivated?

pm90• 8 years ago

Please do finish your education... there seems to be an anti-college sentiment on HN, but you've put in so much work, it just makes sense to get it over with, get the damn certificate. It may not seem like much when working for private companies, but when you work with Governments (either on contracts or for immigration etc.) more paper education does matter, alumni networks are helpful. And you can go to thailand even after you get the degree :).

elbear• 8 years ago

For Algebra and Calculus have you tried Khan Academy? Their only downside is that they don't apply the concepts enough to real-world problems, but I found Sal's explanations clear enough.

I also liked http://www.mathsisfun.com/ and https://brilliant.org/ although you need to pay for the Calculus content.

dominotw• 8 years ago

That's great. I suggest keep going and finish it. Not sure if you already have a family but free time evaporates once you decide to have one.

MrDam2• 8 years ago

I used Khan Academy for 2-3 months while I had a full-time job. I worked my way up from College Algebra to Calculus I before I took community college courses in Calculus I and Calculus II. It definitely prepared me for the college courses.

WheelsAtLarge• 8 years ago

Just a life tip here, make sure you work your way up the ranks. Which means studying and learning how to manage people not learning the obscure computer language. Tech is very tough on old guys. Programmers and CS jobs start to disappear as you get older. The happy stories you'll read here are the exception, not the rule. You need to cover your bases. Good luck.

eikenberry3• 8 years ago

This depends on where you live. I only really read about ageism being a problem in the valley. Locally (US Northwest) I've never seen any sign of it.

jenscow• 8 years ago

Same here (I'm in the UK).

It really depends on the age of what you know.

scarface74• 8 years ago

For all intents and purposes, I "restarted" my software career in 2008 when I was 34. I had been at one company nine years and stop learning in 2001.

When I went back on the market in 2008, I basically had to look for junior developer jobs even though I had 12 years experience on paper - and a degree.

Fortunately(?), by then I waa so underpaid, even junior developers were making more than I was so it was still a slight raise.

It took 10 years, a lot of humility, and a lot of job hopping to get to an architect role and to get to the 50th-60th percentile of lead/senior developer for my local market. (After awhile your experience doesn't mean more pay if you're not a manager)

hi41• 8 years ago

This is my story too. I dropped learning and got laid off. I spent 4 months looking for a job. I joined a team that did j2ee but couldn't handle the complexity of it. Got laid off again. Spent 4 months looking for a job. Now I got production support job. I want to get back in programming but I find all the new technology so hard.

morgosmaci• 8 years ago

I find it interesting that you are not having a problem finding Jr SWE roles. I co-run a computer science career community (CS Career Hackers) and I often get a lot of complaints by new grads about the lack of Jr roles.

veza2• 8 years ago

Being in a similar situation (before degree), I totally agree that I need a solid CS education.

BUT, given that resources like https://teachyourselfcs.com/ are available for free why should I waste money and time and energy on courses of a probable lesser quality, at least at my local university.

The way I see it the problem is not the education itself but your credentials or reputation in front of a possible employer.

So I noted down 3 ideas for myself:

   - build an Open Source reputation, by own projects and contributions - a stellar github account

   - get good at competitive programming - win kaggle competitions, hackerrank, top coder etc.

   - get a CS degree

To me either one of the first two seem better than a degree (given that I learn CS on my own).

zamalek2• 8 years ago

That worked for me until I wanted a visa. Now I am getting a CS degree.

veza2• 8 years ago

fair point, something to think about for me

eikenberry3• 8 years ago

Was it that you needed any degree or did you specifically need a CS degree for your visa? Which country was the visa for?

troebr• 8 years ago

In the US, the skilled worker visa (the infamous h1b) requires a bachelor's or masters, or 12y relevant work experience, or a mix of the two.

ccajas5• 8 years ago

I'm 35 and have been working in web development since 2007, but I feel like my career has went completely off the tracks since 2015. You see, I have been under-employed or unemployed for three years and I cannot convert any interviews into job offers anymore.

I also have a non-STEM degree and the prospect of going to grad school for CS or Math related courses seems tempting. I don't want to work for local small web shops forever, and prefer to see myself in the long run working at a big semiconductor firm or aerospace firm. However, time and financial issues are holding me back from trying out college again.

If OP's experience is more the norm, where tons of doors open for you simply for having the right degree and preparation, what should I do to make ends meet in the interim? How can I get a job to support myself while I'm attending college, when I can't interview worth a damn? I'm hoping I can get by with a campus job, waive part of my tuition (I've also worked on campus last time I was in college).

vancouverwill4• 8 years ago

See my point I added today bait internet interview skills to @ccajas. It is a whole different skill set to learn and not necessarily taught through traditional schooling but worth the effort so that your skill set can be shown in the best light. Good luck!

soupflavor• 8 years ago

Love this. Thank you for sharing. It is an inspiration!

zombieprocesses• 8 years ago

Congratulations on your new career.

On a side note, anyone else a bit worried that there being a tech or economic bubble? Reading this thread, I can't help but be reminded of the dotcom bubble when everyone was getting into tech or the "I just became a realtor" craze before the housing bubble crash.

Anyone maintain a list of indicators other than S&P 500 PE ratio or the interest rate?

I'm generally optimistic on the economy because of the tax cuts and the expected infrastructure spending, but still, don't wait to be caught with my pants down like the 2008 financial disaster.

vancouverwill4• 8 years ago

I'm always worried about that but have been since about 2012 so it is hard to know what the future holds. Best hedge plan is to live well within means and save lots so if/when there is another big crash have savings to last until the economy gathers steam again.

bane• 8 years ago

HN is easily one of the most valuable "tools" I have in my toolchest. 20-30 minutes a day of front page browsing and the occasional post is like having a secret weapon in my tech arsenal. The number of times topics (not just tech) have come up in my professional life that I heard about first, and usually only, on HN...and then my ability to engage reasonably intelligently on those topics because of HN is countless.

megamindbrian2• 8 years ago

How do you find offers when every resume submission is met with automated replies?

bnchrch• 8 years ago

You want to avoid those channels all together. Anytime you find a company that you want to work for or one with an interesting opening try to get in direct contact with someone at the company. Either at the manager level or in HR.

Simply asking for time to talk about the position is enough to bypass any automated process

0xdeadbeefbabe• 8 years ago

I'd rather think about an interesting problem than think about career building. I thought this was a common problem, but this thread is sure different.

MrDam2• 8 years ago

I made the same moves last year and have no regrets. I was 28 when I quit my career in finance in May 2017. It's definitely been the hardest thing I've ever done (System's Architecture and Computer Networks) but it's been the most rewarding. I'll be finishing Year 1 of 3 this June.

Tell HN: I just wanted to say: thank you, Hacker News

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