Early owners of Tesla's Model 3 are reporting quality problems

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-model3-quality-20180218-story.html

by edward • 8 years ago

92 135 8 years ago

bhauer• 8 years ago

As a reservation holder, I can answer fairly quickly: Not really. I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine.

And most importantly: there is no other car I want more that I can afford. So I will tolerate some quality issues.

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

But there will be a point where Tesla has to sell to beyond the fanbase and early reservation holder/enthusiasts, they have to sell it to the masses who don't even necessarily know who Elon Musk is.

The Model 3 is aimed to be that car, but I have a feeling the general buyers will be a lot less tolerant about issues than early adopters/long time fans.

lallysingh2• 8 years ago

They have a long backlog of enthusiasts to sell to first. That's a long runway to improve quality.

samfisher83• 8 years ago

People buy bmws and Mercedes and those cars all kinds of quality issues especially after the warranty ends.

elihu2• 8 years ago

Presumably, they're still working out problems in their manufacturing process. By the time they're selling to people who don't care about Tesla and just want a car, most of those issues will have been long ago solved.

The unknown is where the quality level will be when it levels off after all the obvious inefficiencies and easy-to-fix flaws are addressed. There's a limit to the quality that some organization can achieve at a particular price point.

ilovecars24• 8 years ago

I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine.

I had this same attitude with an ICE car I purchased. The pre 2015 models had weak CV joints that appeared to fail after 10/20,000 miles. It sucked for owners of those earlier cars, but the good news is that dealerships will replace the CV joints on the S1 free of charge without question irrespective of milage.

I hope that Tesla do the same with the first Model 3 owners because it's just the right thing to do.

ChadMoran5• 8 years ago

Yeah? My $100k+ Model X built over a year after the release has been into the service center 4 times to fix 42 issues. One of which they refuse to.

drewg1236• 8 years ago

What do they refuse to fix? Did you try another SC?

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that literally wrote the book on efficient manufacturing?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th...

Silicon Valley hubris can be downright embarrassing sometimes.

gameswithgo• 8 years ago

Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker"

No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular.

and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota

The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular.

Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and experience in this field.

Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right.

njarboe3• 8 years ago

The Forbes article quotes Musk saying 50% more production should be achievable.

IncRnd3• 8 years ago

The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.

From the article:

But that's just the beginning. Musk said he is considering a subterranean conveyance system that would carry seats and other sub-assemblies from nearby facilities to the assembly plant via new tunnels dug by The Boring Company, Musk's newest company.

"These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable," he said. "But I can see a path where we get to, say, 600,000 Model 3 production and 100,000 S and X, so maybe 700,000, which should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable."

usaphp• 8 years ago

and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota

When did he say that he thinks that?

njarboe3• 8 years ago

IIRC the video where Musk was talking about how fast the assembly line moves, the "slower than a Grandma with a walker" on the speed of current auto line velocities is literally correct. He was discussing manufacturing plant efficiencies and how he was hoping to get Tesla's lines up to at least a walking speed. With Tesla right now, I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality. Maybe that is a bad idea and it might fail. But if he ends up with a large reductions in manufacturing costs/per car and can get quality up to industry standards, he will once again revolutionize the auto industry and other manufactures follow have to follow his lead.

gamblor9563• 8 years ago

I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality.

Citation needed. Tesla's current process is known to be a magnitude (or more) less efficient than any other Western car maker. Just a few months ago, they were still building Model 3 cars by hand.

Tesla's having difficulty scaling up to monthly quantities that other car manufacturers can reach in under a week, and Tesla's quality control has dropped through the floor while it struggles to achieve that paltry output. Tesla might be able to achieve "large reductions in costs" and get quality up to industry standards, but after 10 years and 4 models of cars, they have yet to prove that they can achieve either.

ilovecars24• 8 years ago

I really dislike this trend that Tesla are setting where their customers are little more than beta testers and I fear that the other automakers will follow in their footsteps. When I purchase a car, whether it be Ford, Tesla or VW, panel gap like (https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793, https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang...) is just not acceptable.

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

It's interesting that many Tesla fans tout the OTA feature as how Tesla will be giving out free new features/updates to owners.

It does happen sometimes (such as "uncorking" the performance on the 100D models), but most of the time it's there to ship/fix features that people already paid for, or should be there in the first place (eg. rain sensing windshield wiper).

selectodude2• 8 years ago

"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today."

-Ferdinand Piëch

There needs to be a culture from the top down of giving a shit about fit and finish. It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care.

maxxxxx• 8 years ago

"It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care."

Being CEO of only one company of this size is already a huge job. Being CEO of two just seems like a big ego trip.

tardo993• 8 years ago

This is a really good comment and I thoroughly agree.

Domenic_S4• 8 years ago

Pre-reveal non-owner reservation holder here. I suspect this will be unusual: between constant delays and consistent quality problems, I cancelled my reservation last week. I got a plug-in hybrid instead, for about the same price as the Model 3.

I'm a huge believer in the tech and Musk's vision of the future. I learned I am not a believer in Musk-the-executor when it comes to cars.

RustGirl• 8 years ago

I'm very happy with my P90D, but when it was time to get a second electric car, we got a Chevy Bolt, which we're also very happy with. I don't like to order things that aren't shipping yet. There have been no quality issues or bugs with my Bolt. It's never been back to the dealer.

dnautics3• 8 years ago

Musk has a long track record of delivering late (think how late falcon 9 heavy is, how late falcon 9 was)

bsder• 8 years ago

We call difficult things "rocket science" for a reason, you know ... so, not the most apt comparison.

However, even if Tesla goes out of business because they can't scale up, I will be grateful to Musk for kicking the incumbents in the ass about electric cars. I suspect we wouldn't have the Leaf or Volt without Tesla (see: GM EV-1, for example).

Domenic_S4• 8 years ago

No doubt. Failing the same way a whole bunch of times with no course correction doesn’t give me confidence.

tardo993• 8 years ago

I got a used Nissan Leaf for $8000 and installed the Level 2 charging station that the seller threw in for free myself. Couldn't be happier. Also, that extra $30000-$100000k in my bank account (depending on the Tesla I didn't buy) feels good too.

drewg1236• 8 years ago

I'm a Model X owner. I have quality issues (loose seal & forgotten tow package at delivery, Falcon Wing Door "alignment" issues), but the rest of the car is well worth it. I consider the quality problems to just be the price of driving the car of the future (though I really could do w/o those silly falcon wing doors).

I don't think I have ever had a car that I love so much. It is big enough for family and friends, burns no fossil fuel, and leaves almost any other car in the dust off the line.

And it keeps getting better and better with software updates. In just the 4 months that I've owned the car, auto pilot has gotten noticeably better and we've gotten tons of new little features.

robotresearcher• 8 years ago

The combination of known quality problems and frequent over-the-air updates to software worries me a bit.

Software is harder to get right than seals and tow packages, and they are not paying very close attention to the latter.

Apple's devices fit together just so, but even with their vast resources their software drifts around in quality.

jaimex22• 8 years ago

I think you nailed it on the head.

Even with the build issues they make better overall cars than anyone else.

nilkn• 8 years ago

I'd agree that Tesla's all-electric powertrains offer a better everyday driving experience than a traditional internal combustion engine. However, we're talking about $70k-$100k+ cars here, and there are some really competitive ICE cars in that price range when you start looking at everything else.

For instance, while the entry-level cars from Mercedes don't really impress me that much, their more expensive models do, like a well-optioned E43 or E63 AMG. They really nail luxury in a way that Tesla doesn't. Also, I dare say I prefer their approach to the infotainment system.

sushisource2• 8 years ago

Spoken like someone who hasn't really driven a lot of cars. Does Tesla make better overall all electric cars than anyone else? Well, yeah, at the price point they sell them at. A Bolt EV is pretty damn good too.

Better overall cars period? That's insane. Just nuts. As some sibling commentators pointed out you can buy a hell of a lot of car for ~80-100k.

I mean, you can buy a Volvo Polestar V60 for ~63k which has a lovely interior and overall quality, and is both cheaper and faster than the base Model S. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-volvo-v60-polestar...

lostmsu• 8 years ago

I have a $20,000 Honda, and none of the listed issues are even imaginable. Considering my model is not among the top selling ones, I'd say what you describe counts as pretty significant quality control issues.

djrogers• 8 years ago

I call baloney. A simple google search for "honda door alignment issues" brings up a ton of forum posts of people complaining about this, from brand new current models, going back many many years.

No question that Honda likely has fewer issues, but to claim they are not 'even imaginable' is horse-puckey.

madengr• 8 years ago

Ditto for my $8,500 Nissan Leaf EV. I have read the issue is Tesla has no experience with steel manufacturing.

ghostbrainalpha• 8 years ago

How often do you use the autopilot?

Could you give any more detail on what improvements you noticed?

drewg1236• 8 years ago

I use it mainly on the interstate.

There is a section of interstate near my house with a long, sweeping high speed curve. When I first got the car, I'd have to take control on that curve, as AP would drift too far to the outside of the lane. Now I can leave AP on.

When I first got the car, driver initiated AP controlled lane changes (using the signal to tell AP to change lanes) took a long time to initiate, and when they finally started, they were very abrupt. They now start sooner, and are much smoother.

In the earlier versions, if you didn't hold the the turn signal long enough, the lane change would abort in a terrifying swerve back into the original lane. I have not seen that in quite a while (then again, I may have trained myself to always hold the turn signal long enough)

calvinbhai• 8 years ago

Curious to know how much of a factor is it to have something like a supercharger network across the country. Would you have bought this car if there was no such network? How often do you use it?

I feel many many electric cars are coming up to compete with Tesla in every aspect, but no one seems to be bothered about something like the supercharger network.

stephengillie• 8 years ago

It takes a fairly significant amount of time to charge a car - sometimes equivalent to a commute. So most consumers base their purchase on charging at home, meaning apartment renters are more likely to get a hybrid.

One of the oft-mentioned benefits of an electric car is simply charging it overnight, so it's ready to go the next day. Part of this not having to think about an extra trip for fuel every few weeks. It seems odd that someone would forgo this convenience to travel somewhere else for a recharge, or purchase a vehicle that could not travel a round trip on a charge.

amluto2• 8 years ago

The Model S was like this, too. My Model S had a not-quite-fitting front bumper (still problematic), thoroughly dysfunctional rear seatbelts (seemed to affect all of the first several thousand cars including the demo cars, now fixed), some air leaks (gradually getting fixed at service visits), a 12V battery that needed replacement at least once a year (fixed by firmware upgrade -- the original charging algorithm seems to have been written without any consideration for how lead-acid batteries behave), goo dripping out of the sunroof ("fixed" by putting silicone sealant over the goo source), windshield sprayers that are almost impossible to align correctly (design error, presumably still affects current production), and probably several more problems that I've forgotten about.

da02• 8 years ago

Did you ever get tempted of returning it back?

toephu22• 8 years ago

I don't think you can "return" a car if you are not satisfied with it.

amluto2• 8 years ago

No, but my general opinion of Tesla is that they did a fantastic job of making themselves able to sell the Model S. A marque like GM, Ford, or Toyota couldn't have done it -- the price point would be too high. On the other hand, a marque like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus couldn't either -- the Model S is nowhere near good enough. Just take a look at the interior of the Model S (or X or 3) and compare it to a luxury car. Luxury cars have storage, comfort handles, adequate cup holders, easy-to-use controls, and a certain degree of elegance. Tesla interiors are spartan in a way that appeals to Elon Musk's sensibilities and maybe to some Apple fans but don't actually make for great cars.

jaimex22• 8 years ago

Same thing happened with early Model S and X production.

No one cares, they are still selling those models faster than they can produce.

Instant torque, Full charge each morning, Supercharging, Autopilot, OTA updates, FSD ready > Random small issues

Shivetya• 8 years ago

The issue not raised is that every quality problem Tesla fixes after a car delivered is going to have a cost associated with it and that will raise the cost of the whole run. What becomes very important is if a crash or injury gets linked back to a manufacturing defect. I am just amazed it can get past not only the factory but the delivery center in that condition.

I am really wondering the entry level model will ever come out or if by late this year Tesla will discontinue it because of "lack of interest". As in, save money by dropping what would not be a profitable model but pass it off as a customer decision.

I still plan to wait a bit before I got BEV, the range hit in winter months is just too dramatic; a reddit poster observed that near freezing freeway drives brought his range to 230 from 310.

If anything with the burn rate they have they should retrench and put out the big ticket items first, the semi and sports car.

motohagiography• 8 years ago

This is a general product lesson. I read someone comment the other day that if you build a flying car, people will still complain about the door handles and trim. Tesla has revolutionized a technology, like an unimaginably odds beating underdog that changes the economics of human civilization. But the business, the function that decides whether they survive to affect the change they've proven is possible is really a question of, are they building a better car?

As someone bootstrapping a product, (and of course I think my product is the flying car game changer of my market) during the final painful trade offs before MVP, it's the scores of "details" like this I'm taking on water to resolve before showing it. Personally, I think you can only get way with breaking rules if you've demonstrated you know them first, and quality/experience issues cannot be sins of omission.

Where I'm confident I've developed a technology that will change the economics of a market, the moment someone puts their faith in it and lets it into a relationship they have with their stakeholders and it burns a bridge for them, for me to exclaim, "but, but, flying car!" means nothing.

These are not details and corner cases, they are the existential aspects of the business.

I think where Tesla is acceptable is that they are still in a market with legacies like Land Rover, Jaguar, and used supercars, where people tolerate bizarre diseconomies that would seem laughable to Toyota, Mercedes, and even KIA owners.

However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. The lesson I take from articles like this is that what I think of as details as a technologist are in fact the differentiators in a business.

MBCook5• 8 years ago

However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company.

This kind of stuff made sense when they were making the original Roadster and hand assembled them (?). But the model S is now 6 years old and this is still happening.

Fine, it was their first ‘real’ car. The Roadster was very low volume.

But the X has the same problem. And now the 3.

At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these kinds of defects aren’t acceptable?

The stuff I hear about Tesla’s process for this stuff sounds like the descriptions of GM factories in The Machine That Changed The World. Just make the cars, fix the worst of it at the end of the line, let service centers do more after delivery to the customer.

na85• 8 years ago

At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these kinds of defects aren’t acceptable?

Just as soon as people stop lining up to buy their cars.

edit: downvote if you please, but they're selling cars faster than they can make them. Tesla has zero financial incentive to start focusing on stopping those defects until the pre-orders dry up and people start voting with their wallets.

Corporations understand exactly one thing.

dlwdlw• 8 years ago

6 years is really long for many fields e.g. software. It may be really short for cars though, especially if you are up against incumbents. The massive demand probably doesn't help either.

It's not like it's intentional... It's simply the best there is currently and it's competing against idealized thoughtforms. Of course reality can't match the perfection of what can be thought.

robryan• 8 years ago

At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these kinds of defects aren’t acceptable?

They aren't even close to having a production line that can push out the preordered cars in any reasonable amount of time. Probably some time after they can do that.

maxerickson• 8 years ago

The Bolt sort of shows that Tesla isn't all that revolutionary. The Model 3 beats in on a bunch of measures, but they are all modest wins, a bit better range, a little faster acceleration, etc.

And quite a few of the major automakers have electric vehicles that they put small batteries in and sell for a lot less than $40,000.

SloopJon• 8 years ago

My concern is that constrained production and quality issues could lead to long repair times. There was a Motley Fool story last year about someone whose Model S was in the shop for over seven months:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla...

Discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109

michaelt• 8 years ago

That's consistent with the review by Sandy Munro [1] who reported really poor fit and finish quality - rattling doors, poorly fitted gaps around the trunk, and so on.

Computer gamers know the perils of pre-ordering - you've got no recourse if the product has reliability, quality or completeness problems. I hope Tesla enthusiasts who pre-ordered realised the gamble they were taking.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA

ChadMoran5• 8 years ago

I have taken in my Model X for a front end vibration issue that they refuse to fix 4 times. This is a June 2017 build, which is rather recent.

Tesla is deferring quality issues to their service centers instead of fixing them at the factory.

It's a familiar situation. I want better quality but if you want the tech and convenience a Tesla provides you really have no other option. There is a wide gap between the lower end electric drive cars (Leaf, Bolt) vs Tesla. I love my X I just wish the quality matched the price.

influx• 8 years ago

This teardown previously on HN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM

Convinced me that Tesla has some major issues in manufacturing. To get into a Model 3 with most of the features people want is closer to 45K, at which point you could get a pretty damn good car from another manufacturer.

I'm cheering for Tesla, but come on, fit and finish should be on par with the best, not something I should have to overlook.

salimmadjd• 8 years ago

About a year ago, Tesla had a little demo setup in downtown Burlingame (here in SV area). There was a Model X and a Model S. I love cars, so I went to take a peek, but when I looked at the Model X, I instantly saw so many manufacturing flaws. I could not believe how badly a $100K (or about) was assembled. I thought to myself most cars in $20k range are not that poorly manufactured. One side of the hood had such a larger gap compared to the other side. The lines of the vehicle from A pillar to back did not align.

While I was there, a couple arrived with their BWM i3. We started talking and I pointed out the Tesla flaws and decided to examine their i3. It was like one care was made in a first-world and the other one assembled in a third-world country. The gaps were so tight compared to the Model X with near perfect symmetry. You can see the difference between a company with a history of auto making and one stumbling to catch up.

These cars should all be labeled "Beta". That's the only honest thing, Musk can and should do.

ChuckMcM4• 8 years ago

I don't disagree with your assessment, but I point out that it makes the implicit assumption that Tesla customers care about fit and finish.

Tesla is selling every car they make. Not a single one lands in a parking lot at a dealer while picky buyers survey it and compare it to something else. At the moment, the Tesla market is completely people who will buy it even if it has old In-n-Out wrappers in the back seat.

What that means is that for Tesla, today, putting any money into fit and finish, rather than in speed of production, loses them money. Once they have a pipeline that can make more cars than they have pre-orders for, and start putting them out on lots for more discerning eyes, then the investment in fit and finish will give a marginal boost in sales.

pascalxus• 8 years ago

In that case, I'll wait a few years, until the fit and finish catches up.

AmVess• 8 years ago

The reason why Teslas don't sit at a dealership is because Tesla doesn't have dealerships.

rsynnott2• 8 years ago

They’re not, in the scheme of things, making very many cars, though. Once the true believers are exhausted, I suspect they’re in trouble.

sushisource2• 8 years ago

I think the problem people are pointing out is that those cars go sold so quickly because of Tesla's great marketing and brand image. Quality problems could change that. If Tesla goes from being "the sexy new car company" to "the first company that really made proper electric cars, but now other people do it better", then they could lose it all very, very quickly.

IncRnd3• 8 years ago

The problem is that Tesla sells 100% of their cars to their base of automatic buyers, and they still lose money. When they try to sell more cars and compete with car makers, they will need to have comparable build quality in order to at least break even.

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

Tesla is selling every car they make. Not a single one lands in a parking lot at a dealer while picky buyers survey it and compare it to something else.

What are you talking about? There are plenty of inventory Model S and Model X around. Very often you also see these sub-50 mile cars get slapped with a "demo discount" as stores try to unload them.

Model S and Model X's sale is definitely, definitely not supply constrained. You can check their earning reports to see the inventory.

xkjkls3• 8 years ago

I disagree with the assumption that anyone spending $100K on a vehicle cares nothing about fit and finish. They may be willing to buy into the vision, but the segment of the population who can afford these fancy toys definitely care about their appearance.

lacker• 8 years ago

Personally, when I look at the UI on the vast majority of cars, it's embarassing. Fonts don't even match, it's like looking at a website from 1996. I could say that all Fords should be labeled "Beta" until they can get up to Tesla quality. But, people just care about different things in a car. Some people do not care about how many millimeters the gap next to the hood is.

Cookingboy10• 8 years ago

One can argue the quality of physical manufacturing process has a larger impact to the long term reliability and core functionality of a car than say... fonts in the infotainment system.

But maybe that's just crazy talk.

jore• 8 years ago

This is exactly my impression. A friend bought a new Tesla S and one day while getting out of it I saw some quality problems that are easily seen on the outside by just passing by. I wonder what problems could arise if I inspect it in details.

We have developed one of the modules for all BMW series and I used to visit some of the BMW plants in Europe so I have a relatively good impression of their quality. Just an example: the tires are screwed manually by hand. With an automatic screwdriver, but still by hand... in Germany. When I asked why, they said that they have tried doing this automatically, but back then ( 5 years ago) there was no robot that could do it with that quality. So sometimes quality depends heavily on experience. And Tesla does not have enough experience.

This friend of mine had to bring back his Tesla a couple of weeks after he bought it, because the salesman told him on the day he received the car, that there were some small details that needed some improvements. On a 100k car. And unfortunately they have not fixed the flaws that I observed. Apparently there were also other things to fix.

I am huge fan of Tesla. I hope they succeed. But I will not but one in the 10 years. I will just let them gain some experience with serial production first.

rizwank• 8 years ago

Owner of a M3. My first Tesla. I have number 40xx.

I adore the damn thing. Seeing software updates makes me happy. I compare it to my last favorite car, my Volt which claimed to support updates; but never patched it’s awful UI.

It is a bit raw. I had to leave the car at the service center due to some door handle issues. I received a loaner model S, and it’s was fixed impeccably. The X had a trunk issue for a ton of cars needing a rain proof cover on the trunk- and every owner got it.

There are quality issues. So far I’ve seen everything fixed at Tesla’s expense, with similar reports on TMC. It is a different paradigm though - far more a reliable software platform (where they fix things when they are broke) than the typical “here is your car” model.

There is a bit of fandom in which earlier adopters are willing to put up with issues. As I said, I love the car, and as long as they keep patching issues (HW & SW) that come up, I’ll accept some issues.

Don’t want the issues? Wait a half year. But recall that they have 18 months of backlog. Most would consider that a commercial success.

LeonM• 8 years ago

Today I saw a X P100DL on the parking lot at work, I immediately noticed that both (!) the tail lights had moisture in them. This is a brand new 160.000 euro* car, this should in no way be acceptable. If that was my car, I'd would have returned it to dealership.

* In the Netherlands, the base price of a 'ludicrous' edition is 159.430,- euro.

woodandsteel2• 8 years ago

Ok, lots of quality problems, but let's think about things in terms of their larger significance.

Have the Tesla cars, in spite of their quality problems, revolutionized the auto industry, pushing almost every major manufacturer to start BEV programs and thereby being a major force in dealing with global warming and hence the future of the human race? Yes.

Will Tesla, in the next year or two, greatly improve the quality of the Model 3? Probably.

Will Tesla autos continue to sell well? Probably.

So should you feel basically positive about Tesla? I say yes. Unless, of course, you are in the fossil fuels or ICE business.

woodandsteel2• 8 years ago

Looking at this from another angle, it seems to me that Musk had a choice between going slowly so he could produce automobiles with few quality problems, and charging ahead full speed to produce a large number of revolutionary autos. I think he picked the smart option.

ProfessorLayton• 8 years ago

I really hope Tesla manages to pull it together because competition is good for everyone, but the quality bar they have to meet has gotten pretty high.

My Civic is still holding up exceptionally well in regards to materials and fit and finish at 12 years old. The only rattles come from the fact that I installed 3rd party speakers the car was not meant to handle.

I expect Tesla to be at least as well built as an econobox from the mid 2000s

nabla92• 8 years ago

This is to be expected. Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability. So far people who buy Tesla are willing to tolerate low quality if they get the features they want. Camaro has low reliability as well.

The real question is if this strategy works when manufacturing volume grows.

davidgould2• 8 years ago

Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability.

This is simply false. I have the March 2018 Car Issue of Consumer Reports in my hand. They segmented Tesla P85D into a group: "Cars: Ultra-Luxury" and put it at the top in the overall rating. In specifically the Predicted Reliablity rating the P85D was rated "Above Average". The other car with "Above Average" reliablity in that group was the BMW 750i xDrive.

The remaining cars were: Genesis G90, MB S550, Audi A8, Jaguar XJL. To avoid fouling CU's copyright I will give the reliability ratings out of order to the list of cars. The rating of the group excluding the BMW and Tesla: Average, Less Than Average, Average, Average.

No car in the group rated higher for reliability than the Tesla. Hardly "close to the bottom".

For the curious Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on an annual detailed survey of their membership. They have had a consistent methodology for years and have defended in in court (manufacturers don't like to be called "Worse than Average") successfully repeatedly. I don't take them as gospel on everything, but the car reliability data seems solid.

nabla92• 8 years ago

Look at the December 2017 issue of consumer reports brand reliability report [1].

As I said, Model 3 is different. Musk said that Model 3 is supposed to be Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class type car with large production volume.

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[1]: Car Brands Reliability: How They Stack Up Ranking the brands and showing their most and least reliable cars https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

mh8h• 8 years ago

The question is, can the incumbent luxury car manufacturers figure out the technology and supply chain of electric cars and batteries before Tesla can figure out how to manufacture high quality cars?

Steko• 8 years ago

Oh look, the Muskonauts have flagged this story, which should be in the top 3 based on pts/time to the bottom of the 2nd page. Yes there are other factors that can drop a post's rank, but not by that much.

I thought HN had a vouch system to counter flag abuse, was it done away with?

Early owners of Tesla's Model 3 are reporting quality problems

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