What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

https://www.chronicle.com/article/whats-so-dangerous-about/242256

by Chaebixi • 9 years ago

142 140 9 years ago

Surprisingly well written and balanced article in today's world of demonizing those we disagree with and deifying those we agree with. Something increasingly lost in the noise is that in the end we're all just people -- something that this article emphasizes.

Chaebixi3• 9 years ago

I found it on http://www.aldaily.com. They find some very good stuff.

superquest4• 9 years ago

Below is a very good related article about the "intellectual dark web" consisting of academics like Peterson who are being driven out of the academy by orthodoxy and instead work through podcasts, Youtube, Patreon, etc

http://conatusnews.com/rise-intellectual-dark-web/

edit:

I made a thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16189120

DanAndersen2• 9 years ago

I think there's something really interesting happening with philosophy and its use of the Internet as a platform. It's a disruption in the same way that traditional media is being disrupted.

YouTube debates held by self-made moderators are a sort of spectator sport where differing schools of thought are battling it out rhetorically. The audiences are people who are honed by online debate groups and have experience in one-liner Tweets and trolling to prove a point.

When you think about it, it's not all that new of a concept -- the classical philosophers had their "schools" but they weren't like formal institutions with faculty. Philosophers had their followers or acolytes, not matriculated registered students. Maybe the more calcified academic structures we see starting to break down are the aberration rather than the norm.

ihsw23• 9 years ago

In an environment where non-progressives are shunned, he refrains from shunning them.

Where non-progressives are demonized, he dispels the myth that non-progressives deserve to be demonized.

And so forth -- we are en an environment where progressives are increasingly assertive and increasingly hostile to non-progressives, for whatever reason.

We can wax poetic about the quality of his zealots' character until the cows come home but it doesn't address the fact that people will always seek an icon to revolve around. The only solution to such a situation, like insurgencies in war-zones, is de-escalation and re-integration (of militant progressives and social conservatives into a cohesive society where they both achieve political representation and fairness in the eyes of the law).

Unfortunately modern-day progressives (regressives) have no interest in this and as such social conservatives will continue to gravitate towards those that they don't fully understand but nevertheless find appealing.

optimuspaul• 9 years ago

progressives have been shunned and demonized for so much longer. What did you expect would happen?

tomsthumb4• 9 years ago

Without my agreeing or disagreeing, does that make the above posted ideas incorrect? If not, why are they downvoted?

ravenstine2• 9 years ago

When did progressives start believing en masse that two wrongs make a right?

ihsw23• 9 years ago

I have a hard time reconciling my progressive ideals with social constructivism, where distinct groups seek to assert control over society and "guide" it to achieve a certain political ideal.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura

emptybits• 9 years ago

The article mentions the first interview Sam Harris did with Jordan Peterson. It appeared frustrating for both parties because they got caught up in definitions of words, etc. Still, it was civil so they parted and agreed to talk again. Harris says, "I’d received more listener requests for him than for Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker, Edward Snowden—or, indeed, any other person on earth."[0]

Notably, but not in the article, Harris interviewed Peterson again, two months later.[1]

[0] https://samharris.org/speaking-of-truth-with-jordan-b-peters...

[1] https://samharris.org/podcasts/meaning-and-chaos/

electrograv• 9 years ago

This is key: Continuing discussion is essential to scientific and social progress -- especially on topics in which you disagree or may even be offended (if emotions were allowed to dominate), not to the exclusion of such things.

This inversion from intellectuals welcoming disagreement to shunning it is a terrifying movement to those who value science and truth-seeking, because in a worst case scenario it could very realistically lower us into a new dark age. Just the necessity of an "intellectual dark web" is itself an extremely concerning reflection of today's intellectual climate, which is becoming hostile to tenets of rationality and civilized discourse.

When we subtract dialogue and reason from the picture, all we are left with is emotional conflict -- and rarely do two extremely conflicting emotional views of a topic resolve automatically without the intervention or guidance of rationality.

tomsthumb4• 9 years ago

It’s worth pointing out that Peterson is actually not against using a variety of gender pronouns per se. So many people get this wrong.

He is against being compelled to use a variety of gender pronouns by legislation which is internally inconsistent, scientifically inaccurate, and additionally lacks clarity by punting process and standards to the Ontario human rights commission which can change their process and definitions without involvement from an elected legislature.

savanaly• 9 years ago

In everyday life I've never found it to be too inconvenient to be as accommodating as possible to others and communicate with them on their own terms, whether that means remembering to use the pronouns they want or using alternative terminology if they think some word is offensive.

I've never had to think about how my outlook might change if all of that got a lot more inconvenient though (if more people start requiring ever more varied pronouns, or if so many words get soft-banned as being offensive that it's difficult to communicate with clarity). Much less have I thought about what if I were compelled by force/law to do the thing I've been doing voluntarily all along. I can understand and be sympathetic to Peterson's position in that sense, although I'm not sure if I agree.

majormajor2• 9 years ago

It's easy in one-on-one conversations with people you know or have a reasonable way of learning about.

It's hard for public or mass communications with people who have rapidly-evolving preferences and sets of things that can cause offense.

Peterson sounds like a dick in his methods, but there's a dangerous regressive trend picking up in mainstream circles of treating disagreement as heresy. We've picked up the worst habits of religion. (And the "right" is too intellectually dishonest to notice that this treend of whining/heresy/safe-spaces-desire trend is deeply entrenched in evangelical and right-wing America, with private schools, "wars on Christmas", etc.)

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

Much less have I thought about what if I were compelled by force/law to do the thing I've been doing voluntarily all along.

Have you never made a mistake in common courtesy? What if any mistake in common courtesy meant that you could be hauled before a kangaroo court which can use a scientifically dubious "test of unconscious bias" against you as evidence? What if that kangaroo court could get you kicked out of your job? Go and read the law Jordan Peterson is complaining about.

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

Not to mention scientifically dubious tests of "unconscious bias" used against you as evidence in kangaroo courts -- enshrined into law. That's something that might be in Room 101 in the world of Orwell's1984.

Also, enshrining into law of scientifically false statements. (Anyone remember the bit about Indiana doing that with pi == 3?)

rosser2• 9 years ago

The pi thing never actually happened. The bill was proposed but did not pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

DiffEq2• 9 years ago

Well pi does equal 3 if you round it down.

vowelless• 9 years ago

There are five lights!

https://youtu.be/o_eSwq1ewsU

FussyZeus2• 9 years ago

Exactly. I have no problem calling a genetic male "she" that's what she prefers. I take issue with being held to a standard of somehow needing to "know" that ahead of time, and respect it, with no effort on the part of the woman in question.

I'm perfectly able to be understanding in these cases, but I'm not capable to be psychic.

masmullin• 9 years ago

I've only met one transgender person. She was basically a dude wearing lipstick and high heeled boots. She was really nice, and I wanted to use her preferred pronouns, but it's really difficult to do so.

I take issue with being held to a standard of somehow needing to "know" that ahead of time, and respect it, with no effort on the part of the woman in question.

I'd like to postulate that it's not just ahead of time. It's really hard to change your usage of he to she or him to her, when you are visually presented with a man. The brain doesn't easily change, so don't get mad when it doesn't change as fast as you want.

drak0n1c• 9 years ago

Nicknames are similar, someone you meet may let you know how they prefer to be called, and then you use it if you can remember.

microtherion• 9 years ago

I take issue with being held to a standard of somehow needing to "know" that ahead of time

I agree that this would be an unreasonable standard. But I've yet to see that standard being applied to anyone (And I run in circles where I'm exposed to quite a bit of very outspoken trans/nonbinary rhetoric).

What I see, time and time again, is people who explicitly refuse to call someone by their preferred pronoun, whether it's on the grounds of pure petulance ("You can't make me!"), or of some biological essentialism ("HE, because Y chromosome").

So unless you have any examples of people being attacked for a single, innocent mistake, I'm inclined to see this as a strawman (straw-person?) argument.

wavefunction• 9 years ago

I try to treat people with respect and in the manner they would like to be treated (within reason) but I also reserve my right to be offensive to other people, to be rude and crude and aggressive because some times that's appropriate.

acjohnson55• 9 years ago

It’s worth pointing out that Peterson is actually not against using a variety of gender pronouns per se.

At some point, what someone literally says they are or aren't against starts to pale in comparison to the perception of their stance. And if that perception persists, at some point, one has to call into question their sincerity.

Erik8162• 9 years ago

You are calling someone's sincerity into question because other people have an incorrect perception of what they are saying?

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

You are espousing a position that calls for the validation of anyone's unjustified projections onto someone else. Should this cause me to question your sincerity?

upofadown2• 9 years ago

He actually wrote a letter to the administration of his university to state that if he had a trans student he would not be compelled to use their gender pronoun of choice. The admin told him, in so many words, to not be an asshole for no reason. He then published to response on the internet and played the victim.

So he more or less had to create a controversy out of nothing. The great majority of people consider the question a matter of courtesy and hold no strong feelings.

tomsthumb4• 9 years ago

The admin told him, in so many words, to not be an asshole for no reason. He then published to response on the internet and played the victim.

This is a pretty low resolution summary of their correspondence. It’s also pretty easy to argue that his behavior is better described as refusing to play the victim. For him, the loss of his rights is more impactful than the consequences of not complying, so he refused to play a part in the quiet loss of his rights.

jnbiche6• 9 years ago

So he more or less had to create a controversy out of nothing. The great majority of people consider the question a matter of courtesy and hold no strong feelings.

Well, this is now enshrined in Canadian law, so it doesn't matter much what the great majority of people feel. It only matters how courts will interpret the law.

moksha256• 9 years ago

His interview with Camille Paglia is a gem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

chimen• 9 years ago

The "so you're saying" interview. Def. a good watch. Peterson handles it so good.

superquest4• 9 years ago

No. This is the "so you're saying" interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

sremani• 9 years ago

That interview is with Cathy Newman BBC4 Radio.

Camille is OG feminist, the real deal. Not the 3rd wave Feminists, that are lying around in the media and academia now a days.

superquest4• 9 years ago

She is such a firebrand.

After watching that interview I've tried to make my body language more expressive like hers.

hateduser2• 9 years ago

Why would you want to copy her body language? Is your natural body language mute and unemotional? That sounds like a bigger problem.

sincerely2• 9 years ago

He believes that the insistence on the use of gender-neutral pronouns is rooted in postmodernism, which he sees as thinly disguised Marxism.

I've only been studying theory for a few years but how is this interpretation of postmodernism possible? It seems to run counter to one of what I understand to be the foundations of the movement - the rejection of metanarratives.

naasking• 9 years ago

Many take issue with the minutae of his arguments, like his understanding of postmodernism. Still, if you focus on the problematic symptoms he describes and skip his causal arguments, that is, what he attributes as the cause of those symptoms, he is pointing out real issues that deserve attention.

carradjm• 9 years ago

If I remember correctly, Peterson says that the Neo-Marxists followed up on the theories of postmodernism as a way to bring Marxist thought back into the academically-acceptable realm, and that led to where we are today. So, the author is slightly wrong in his description of Peterson's beliefs. He doesn't see Postmodernism as "thinly disguised Marxism". He see Neo-Marxism as having its roots in Postmodernism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5rUPatnXSE

Good video where he discusses these things in terms of political correctness.

scribu• 9 years ago

I’ve never encountered this interpretation before either.

The only way I can make some sense of it is by drawing a correspondence between postmodernism’s “there is no absolute truth, only convenient fictions” and marxism’s class warfare.

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

Yes, that's it. What is the ideological effect of “there is no absolute truth, only convenient fictions?”

"Decolonize Science" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXMG7YajHA0

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

There's the academic philosophical postmodernism, which rejects metanarratives. Then there's a derived ideology taken up as the basis for a lot of Intersectional activism which can be termed "Social Constructionism." As is the case for many activist derivations of ideology, there is some straying away from the original academic version.

While postmodernism claims it rejects metanarratives, like the one in Marxism, the derived ideologies share a lot of parallels in effect. They both result in opposing groups which can't effectively talk to each other, so must coerce each other by force. (Doesn't this remind you of the Intersectional "Stack Ranking" and the "Oppression Olympics?") They both effectively result in a rejection of logic. They both effectively create their own forms of obscurantist alternative "logic." The ideological effect of both Marxism and Social Constructionism is to come up with a pretext for rejecting existing standards and tearing society apart -- one which is ideologically sealed against negotiation, logic, and adaptation to evidence.

Jach• 9 years ago

I watched https://youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0 a few months ago, I believe he lays out his interpretation in it. Afterwards I was inspired to go reread one of my favorite programming language essays, Perl the first postmodern computer language: http://www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html

It's still great to read but rereading I noticed at the core the same oppression narrative that seems to appear out of all postmodern discourse at some point and which JBP associates with Marxism. Here the programmer is oppressed by stuck up programming languages, Perl reverses the roles and is happy to be like a butler/slave. Which is fine for a programming language, but offers problems when reversing the oppressor/oppressed roles is the only solution you can think of, the only interpretation you wish to dwell on however flimsy the interpretation is (which seems to be where postmodernism went wrong / taken over by Marxists), and each side involves real people.

jseliger• 9 years ago

"Postmodernism" and "deconstructionism" are often used synonymously: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/10/02/what-happened-with-decons... and like many overarching "isms" they've come to mean such different things that they can be used to mean almost anything.

That being said, many strands of postmodernism in universities have come to teach that there is nothing outside of language itself (that's a common reading of Foucault and Derrida), so everything can be seen as a language or sign system. Want to change "reality" (as if there is such a thing!)? Just change the language.

Another stand holds that there are only two really important groups: the powerful / powerless, which could also be seen as the "oppressors" and "oppressed." Everyone is supposed to be in one of the two groups. This gets grafted onto identity politics in rather unpleasant ways (IMO).

So in the pronoun debate, people who are transgendered or non-gendered are the oppressed and need help; everyone who is not "helping" them is the oppressor and must be opposed.

This, anyway, is the line of thinking, though it isn't my own view of the world. To say that everything is linguistic seems unlikely. When I was in grad school in English (note: don't do this: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo... ) and would hear this argument, I liked to observe that everyone, given the choice between getting punched in the face or having someone say something mean to them, chooses the latter. This would seem to me to argue that not everything can be reduced to language, even apart from all the other very good and obvious-seeming arguments along those lines.

dragonwriter3• 9 years ago

That being said, many strands of postmodernism in universities have come to teach that there is nothing outside of language itself (that's a common reading of Foucault and Derrida), so everything can be seen as a language or sign system. Want to change "reality" (as if there is such a thing!)? Just change the language.
Another stand holds that there are only two really important groups: the powerful / powerless, which could also be seen as the "oppressors" and "oppressed."

Those aren't really separate stands, the latter is a consequence of the former: if language (or, rather, beliefs which is transmitted between people by language) is the defining factor in reality, then the ultimately meaningful differentiation between people is whether they are influential in shaping belief (powerful) or not (powerless).

It's also directly contrary to the central theme of Marxism, which makes the association of these particular postmodernist viewpoints with Marxism bizarre. (Certainly, there are people who moved from Marxism to this kind of postmodernism, just like there are people who have moved from Marxism to capitalism or from Marxism to democratic socialism or from Trotskyism to neoconservatism.

mizzack3• 9 years ago

I think the "danger" around Jordan Peterson goes beyond the pronoun debate.

Individualism and wariness of ideological collectivism seem to be tenets of what he espouses. No surprise, then, that ideological collectivists are his most vocal enemies.

ihsw23• 9 years ago

I'd be surprised if he shunned collectivism if it were a kind that he agreed with, ie: the Judeo-Christian pro-family values (ie: men and women are destined to for monogamous marriage, homosexuality is sinful) collectivism.

He sounds like a hardcore libertarian but I think it's a smokescreen for ideologically-driven oppression under another name.

api3• 9 years ago

Why do so many fascists and racists like him then? They're collectivists.

(Not necessarily saying Peterson is a fascist or a racist, but that's a separate question.)

mizzack3• 9 years ago

From a post elsewhere in these comments:

Another stand holds that there are only two really important groups: the powerful / powerless, which could also be seen as the "oppressors" and "oppressed." Everyone is supposed to be in one of the two groups. This gets grafted onto identity politics in rather unpleasant ways (IMO).
So in the pronoun debate, people who are transgendered or non-gendered are the oppressed and need help; everyone who is not "helping" them is the oppressor and must be opposed.

Same thing applies here. Take note of who is applying these -ist labels, and who they are being applied to: anyone in the outgroup.

I would be floored to discover if the majority of these strawmen "fascists" and "racists" are a collective by any definition other than "not on board with the cause."

reitanqild• 9 years ago

Why do so many fascists and racists like him then?

Because they aren't very bright and also don’t pay attention when he tell them how stupid their ideology is?

beat11• 9 years ago

Thinking to his issue over pronouns...

He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole. Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole.

And this is the real headache with Jordan Peterson. He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for thousands of followers, he's just providing intellectual cover for bigotry and emotional sadism.

DanAndersen2• 9 years ago

Respectfully, I'd like to put this in a different frame.

"Being an asshole" isn't some universal quality. If someone is complaining that someone else is "being an asshole," what is essentially meant is that person "is doing something for which they should be socially shamed." There's nothing inherently right or wrong with having a system of shaming in a society, but it's something particular to a culture and a time. These things come about through consensus and if there isn't some consensus that that's the way things are, then those attempting to impose new norms are ironically also "being assholes."

When you have moral society in recent decades changing very rapidly in terms of what is being considered acceptable or not (whether or not you consider that positive progress), it's going to feel like whiplash to people who are not on the vanguard of the latest new definition of what's acceptable. People say, "Wait a second, I was taught to be a decent person, I think I'm a decent person -- who are these people telling me that I'm now a hateful person for doing or not doing what seemed reasonable up until a couple years ago? Do the people telling me this have moral authority in my eyes?"

Cultural practices take time to adjust or to be adjusted externally. Move too fast and people won't be happy about it, and that should be understood.

beat11• 9 years ago

Most people with unusual gender identities understand this, and are understanding and patient with those who are making an effort to respect their wishes. It's those who consciously refuse, or mock their attempts to clarify their identities, that get called out, and they deserve it.

Yeah, it's hard for us. Hell, I'm 52. I have a lot of adjustment to do. But I try to do it, because I respect my friends. (Patton Oswald did a really excellent speech about this, btw.)

For my own part, a lot of my frustration is the loud and sincerely meant (if wrongheaded) declarations of victimhood by the privileged, simply for being asked to be nice to others. So when I hear Jordan Peterson say he's being oppressed by the evil forces of Marxist postmodernism for being asked to use preferred pronouns... I hear a comfortable, privileged person complaining about how he's a victim. And when he doubles down and says people shouldn't get to choose their own pronouns, their own identity, and instead society should choose for them? Then he's a hypocrite. And an asshole.

Chaebixi3• 9 years ago

Cultural practices take time to adjust or to be adjusted externally. Move too fast and people won't be happy about it, and that should be understood.

To your point, failing to accommodate this, and expecting everyone to immediately change because you have, is its own flavor of "being an asshole."

wumpus2• 9 years ago

My "Miss Manners" etiquette book from the 1960s says you should call people by the names they wish to be called. So it's not "modern", it's timeless. She directly addresses the social issues of the day, such as gay couples or couples living in sin; it's clear what she would recommend today.

nouveaux• 9 years ago

Jordan Peterson is on record saying he would use preferred pronouns. He is opposed to the law and regulation of these pronouns:

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=21m39s

23m16s is where he states he would use preferred pronouns.

beat11• 9 years ago

I'm not surprised, because Jordan Peterson is thoughtful.

And yet, a hundred thousand assholes gleefully share the video clip of him getting in the face of someone confronting him about pronouns, him talking about how it's oppressive, and they take it as the intellectual seal of approval for their refusal to use preferred pronouns, based on their contempt for those who ask for it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

jnbiche6• 9 years ago

There are some 4 or 5 new pronoun classes, totally over 30+ new gender pronouns recognized by some transgender rights activists. This UW LGBT Resource Center lists an additional 7 pronoun classes, totaling 35 new pronouns [1].

So imagine the typical college professor. They've got what? Three or four classes of up to 50 or 60 students?

So you want them remember not only each student's name, but also which of these new pronoun class they prefer, as well as the proper declination of that pronoun class?

And if someone prefers not to do this, it's because they're an asshole?

My guess is that Peterson would have been happy to try to use preferred pronouns for his students, if only he weren't being forced to do so by some human rights act about pronouns and coerced by various activists groups. He's basically said as much before.

For the record, I'm in favor of most transgender rights issues (re: employment, anti-violence, identity documents, etc). But you can't go passing laws to force changes in attitude. US lawmakers did the right thing by passing civil rights laws in the 1960s, but those lawmakers didn't then go and outlaw the use of the n-word. That would have been a bridge too far. People have to learn from those around them what is and isn't appropriate. You can't just force them to think and speak the way you want by force of law.

Or at least, we don't typically try to do that in free societies.

1. http://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/

beat11• 9 years ago

It's very simple, really. You use what seems obvious, and if someone corrects you in one-on-one conversation, you finish the conversation doing the best you can to respect their wishes. And if you screw up, you apologize and self-correct.

We're not talking about 200 students in this case. We're talking about one on one conversation with one person. That's when pronouns matter.

Being unhappy about coercive regulation is an entirely separate issue from trying to do the decent and not terribly difficult thing. And using the coercion as justification for not doing it is, bluntly, an excuse. It's turning around and claiming yourself the victim of what you do to others.

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole.

AFAIK, he does use preferred pronouns.

Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole.

If one is faced with oppressive ideologues who refuse to engage in dialogue and just want to coerce you, the proper response is to stand up to them.

He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for thousands of followers, he's just providing intellectual cover for bigotry and emotional sadism.

I genuinely think that the critiques of Postmodern Social Construction are thoughtful and interesting. I also think they provide intellectual cover for bigotry and emotional sadism, dressed up as "activism."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj28qAS8MWU

lliamander2• 9 years ago

Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole.

Let me ask you, do you think requests for preferred pronouns are rooted in a correct understanding of human nature? Or are you merely accommodating something you believe to be mistaken so as to not hurt someone who likely be (on net) hurt by a more honest approach?

beat11• 9 years ago

Let me give you a libertarian answer... it's up to individuals to decide what their own identity is. When an individual identifies as one thing, and society refuses to accept that identity and imposes labels they find offensive, then they are being oppressed. And that's a much more substantial form of oppression than "Please don't say that" is.

I'm utterly shocked (not really) how many people proudly wave a flag of liberty, but are quite content for society to denounce and punish harmless individual expression, if they aren't comfortable with that expression.

AnimalMuppet2• 9 years ago

I think I generally agree with your second paragraph. We should not deliberately be jerks to others, even if they are different from us. And also, we should not be under legal coercion to not be jerks - that way lies at least serious trouble, and maybe social madness.

But I think I disagree with your third paragraph. People who have thoughtful, interesting things to say should say them. (They should also take care to specify what they don't mean, to discredit "followers" who run off in bad directions. Or else, if they agree with those followers, non-followers will conclude that the bad directions taint the thoughtful and interesting things.)

beat11• 9 years ago

There's the rub, though. When you have something interesting to say that may well be taken the wrong way to justify things you despise (as I believe is the case here), you should take care to clarify as well as possible - and clarify up front, with caveats, to reduce the number of people hearing only the first half of your sentence.

And even then, people will hear what they want to hear. However carefully Peterson speaks his thoughts on this manner, there will still be a lot of people who now think it's the intellectual thing to do to beat up a dude in a dress. Which makes speaking one's mind, however truthfully, an ethical dilemma.

This is the hole below the waterline in the sinking ship of radical honesty. This is why "Don't be an asshole" is more complicated than it sounds.

I kind of hate to beat on Peterson too hard for this, though. He's suddenly acquired a large and unexpected following that he didn't actively pursue. But he needs to deal with the ugly reality of what kind of people make up the bulk of that following, and how his words and ideas affect them. It's an ongoing learning experience.

pluto9• 9 years ago

Perhaps the asshole is the person who expects the rest of the world to jump through linguistic hoops in order to protect their carefully maintained delusions.

hashberry2• 9 years ago

Jordan Peterson became famous after a student tried to debate him about his "Nazi followers" and gender pronouns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP3mSamRbYA

Many people see him as an enemy because of his conservative viewpoints. His most recent debate with Cathy Newman from three days ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

js82• 9 years ago

his most recent debate with Cathy Newman from three days ago

God, that was a terrible interview. The interviewer refused to understand a single thing that JP was saying. I am no fan of Peterson (in particular, I am left liberal), but he makes quite a lot of good points.

api3• 9 years ago

I'm fairly socially liberal too and on the fence about him. He says a lot of interesting things and I've never been a fan of postmodernism which I regard as a form of "pseudo-profound bullshit," but I keep getting hung up by the fact that a whole lot of Peterson's followers are fascists and racists.

Of course the same might have been said at one time about Nietzsche and Jung. Some Nazis loved Nietzche but it was not all that mutual.

ravenstine2• 9 years ago

That's the thing... I'm not conservative by any stretch of the imagination, though I am often mistaken for one; I enjoy listening to people like Jordan Peterson and even Ben Shapiro because they are excellent debaters and can make solid arguments. I can't think of anyone on the other side of the political spectrum who can even come close in that regard, although I would love for someone to give me some examples.

rocmcd• 9 years ago

It really was. It was two people on entirely different planes of conversation talking right past each other.

One thing I think Peterson could do better (though I imagine he wouldn't do this purely on principle, if he was even capable) is adapting his speech and rhetoric to meet his target audience. He was answering her questions in a calm and well-meaning manner, but just the tone and vocabulary of his explanations was going completely over her head, making her draw the wrong conclusions from what he was saying. That is, assuming that she wasn't trying to be combative on purpose.

jsnk• 9 years ago

The article really tries hard to paint Jordan Peterson (JP) as a controversial figure who espouses fringe messages. The article uses adjectives like "controversial" and "polarizing" to describe JP. His public presence is "notoriety". His followers are said to be "something akin to a cult following". He "appears on TV, including on Fox & Friends, President Trump’s preferred morning show". WoW so edgy.

But is JP really the one who is controversial and polarizing?

- JP is against the Pomo stuff that passes for scholarship now a days. https://twitter.com/realpeerreview?lang=en

- We have professors university calling for violence against his political opponents. http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/14/criminal-justice-professor...

- We had a Antifa professor who nearly killed a guy hitting someone with a heavy bike lock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg (WARNING: GRAPHIC)

Is JP really the one who is polarizing and extreme here? The left academic really dropped the ball not pointing out their own dirty laundry and cleaning out their own cesspool of fake academics and violent thugs.

superquest4• 9 years ago

I think the article was pretty fair.

He is controversial and polarizing: many people hate him and many people love him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/Jordan_Peterson_Memes/ are kind of cultish. It's a very ironic cult, but a bit of a cult nonetheless.

lixtra4• 9 years ago

I would place myself in the conservative corner, but I find Peterson quite problematic.

1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures. But if you don’t „follow“ and instead analyze what he is saying and how he forms an argument, then you realize that he is not arguing but just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. But quite often it’s not logic and even less conclusive.

2. His often repeated „life is suffering“ is in the presented totallity not a useful nor true worldview. Life is suffering and joy. (I say this as a pessimist.)

3. If you then check out his reading list you find mostly very disturbing titles and no silver lining.

2. and 3. put his followers in a depressed state where he can uplift them with 1. No wonder he has a sect like following.

His conservative debates are more to the point but I‘m not sure if it is not just advertising for his „religious lectures“.

That’s what I find dangerous about him.

hashberry2• 9 years ago

I understand that cult leaders can be problematic. But do you think his followers are becoming a danger to society?

lixtra4• 9 years ago

In total it’s a tiny rather peaceful group. I don’t see a danger for society.

I’m sure he does help some of his followers. But I doubt that most of his followers profit long term from him. At some point they should move on for their own good.

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures...just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. But quite often it’s not logic and even less conclusive.

Pretty much like a TED talk. Actually, if you look up TED talks about how to be an effective speaker, you will find the advice to talk in simple language and to use metaphors. Also, they advise you to throw in sentiments to which your audience will agree.

2. His often repeated „life is suffering“ is in the presented totallity not a useful nor true worldview. Life is suffering and joy. (I say this as a pessimist.)

Do you actually think he says that life is only suffering? Sorry, but that seems like a deliberate misrepresentation of his views. What evidence do you have that Dr. Peterson is anti-joy? Here's an exercise: find evidence in what he says that shows he values joy.

3. If you then check out his reading list you find mostly very disturbing titles and no silver lining.

Let's go right for the most disturbing: The Gulag Archipelago. It's disturbing as an indictment of the worst human beings can do, while those same people are spouting the most positive sounding utopian ideology. It's not going to depress anyone in the West, unless they have already tied up their identity and self worth in a similar ideology.

As for a silver lining -- to buck up, bear your burdens, and strive to live a worthwhile life -- strikes me as a worthwhile and positive message.

api3• 9 years ago

"Pretty much like a TED talk. Actually, if you look up TED talks about how to be an effective speaker, you will find the advice to talk in simple language and to use metaphors. Also, they advise you to throw in sentiments to which your audience will agree."

So intellectual pop chords and power riffs...

As for the quasi-alt-right flirtation a while back I started calling a lot of that stuff "intellectual edgelording." Some on the left are guilty of it too, but the far right has really mastered it.

lixtra4• 9 years ago

1. I already agreed that his lectures are appealing. Do you agree that his arguments are not logic and conclusive?

2. Fair enough. I shall try if I ever hear his stuff again. With all the metaphors flying around it shouldn’t be to difficult. But can you point out where he says it’s so great to be alive?

3. If you call „I survived the gulag where thousands perished“ as a silver lining you must have a pretty grim world view.

You agree that the Gulag Archipelago is not a relevant reference point to 95% of his western audience. If you don’t find it depressing you must have a very strong character, I would assume a good portion gets depressed (in mood; clinical depression is out of my judgment).

_pvu0• 9 years ago

Jordan Peterson is not extreme at all. We are just currently in a climate where nuanced opinions and observations are ignored by radical ideologues.

Yetanfou2• 9 years ago

He is not radical but he is outspoken and does not let himself be cowed. This antagonises other outspoken people who have been able to silence a large part of their opposition by labelling them as racist, insert-whatever-identity-phobe, nazi and such. When they tried the same with Peterson by calling him a 'transphobe' their attempts spectacularly backfired in that they drew the attention of the general public to Peterson which quickly gave him a much larger following than he normally would have had.

mizzack3• 9 years ago

It's the same pattern with Nicholas Christakis and Bret Weinstein. An association the article pointed out, but didn't mention the pejorative labels applied to those two.

Erik8162• 9 years ago

What is often lost since Peterson became "famous" after the whole gender pronoun controversy is the quality and depth of his thinking and lecturing that was already available on YouTube. This article starts with that, and explains his popularity as a teacher at Harvard and Toronto. I had been watching his lectures for about a year before the pronoun issue, and his ideas are fascinating and deep. They tie together many disparate fields and ideas into an original and interesting synthesis.

But that synthesis is complex, nuanced, and requires a lot of time to think about. There are problems with it, and it deserves to be criticized (Peterson would be the first to agree). There are also profound insights that can help elevate your thinking if you can incorporate them. Lots of people don't have the intellectual background or ability to do so. But everyone can form a 2 second hot take on one of his more recent controversial statements, so that is what gets discussed.

stcredzero17• 9 years ago

But that synthesis is complex, nuanced, and requires a lot of time to think about.

You can think of Jordan Peterson as going just a bit farther than Sam Harris, when Sam Harris says that we should learn from religion by practicing things like meditation. Jordan Peterson comes from the position that things like myth and religion co-evolved with human beings and human society. Even if the literal epistemology of religion and myth is dead wrong on the conscious/rational/scientific level, it still contains insights into the nature of human beings' self regulation because of that co-evolution. Often, these things operate at below the level of consciousness, as we would expect such things to, given that they co-evolved with us from a time before sentient consciousness.

mywittyname2• 9 years ago

I was quite surprised to discover that the alt-right venerate him. I got the impression that he was pretty liberal. I mean, I support LGBTQ rights, but don't agree that people should be forced to use appropriate gender pronouns.

I thoroughly enjoyed his old lectures, but I've avoided watching any of his newer stuff for fear of finding out if he's begun to pander to his (largely) awful followers.

krick2• 9 years ago

It's not as much "alt-right venerate him", as his ("alt-left", I guss?) opponents like to mark him "alt-right" for no reason other than he is not as "left" as they are.

jnbiche6• 9 years ago

I thoroughly enjoyed his old lectures, but I've avoided watching any of his newer stuff for fear of finding out if he's begun to pander to his (largely) awful followers.

I think he did pander a bit, but then realized how far to the right many of those followers were, so drew a clear line in the sand that pissed off and alienated all the fascists and racists (something about ethnic nationalism being an "idiotic ideology" or words to that effect). Peterson is no alt rightist.

However, if you look at places like /r/JordanPeterson, most of his followers were more alienated centrist and liberals than the alt rightists even before he made clear exactly how he felt about the far right/alt right.

nicolashahn• 9 years ago

For those interested in his non-gender identity content:

His series on the Bible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w&index=1&list=PL2...

is generally regarded (by those I know, at least) as Jordan at his best. He goes through the first few stories in the Bible and tries to bring meaning to them, not from the fundamental Christian lens of "this is absolute truth," but more like:

"Here are some archetypal patterns about the world and how to act in it that our ancestors have discovered over thousands of years and distilled into stories. Maybe they hold truth that isn't the 'word of God' truth, but observations about the world that have utility to us even as a modern, rational, scientific civilization. I'll back this up by tying it to studies on psychology, neuroscience, evolution, and animal behavior, and show that variations of the same archetypal stories appear in non-Judeo-Christian societies all over the world."

You can be a hardline atheist and still get tons of value out of these lectures.

I also found his 2017 Maps of Meaning lectures particularly interesting, and personally more relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Xc2_FtpHI

He does a similar thing with the story of Pinocchio instead of the Bible for the first few lectures, which might be more palatable for some. There's a lot of overlap with the Bible series as well.

empanadada• 9 years ago

As an interlocutor, Jordan Peterson seems like a reasonable person to debate with. But his followers are quite dangerous, much like many other political thinkers, whose suggestions were modest, but the followers took it to mean something else...

ankushnarula• 9 years ago

Which followers? And what did they take it to mean?

krick2• 9 years ago

So, to put it short: "What's dangerous about Jordan Peterson is that he makes ideas we don't like sound plausible"? I don't really see an answer to the question in title.

Anyway, his lectures for psychology students on youtube are quite nice to listen, even though I find it problematic how often he treats hard facts off-handedly to speak in favor of his overall narrative. I wonder if there are more courses (especially on non-technical subjects) of the same quality freely available on youtube.

What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

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