UploadVR sued over ‘rampant’ sexual behavior in workplace, wrongful termination

https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/15/uploadvr-sued-over-rampant-sexual-behavior-in-the-workplace-and-wrongful-termination/

by coloneltcb • 9 years ago

130 128 9 years ago

atemerev• 9 years ago

I don't understand why it even happens. With all high-profile cases in the last few years, can people hold it for a while? Or everybody is hiring 19 year old boys who physiologically can't?

swampthinker2• 9 years ago

I think a large part of it has to do with the fact that young college students and/or recent graduates building startups and hitting it big with VC funding.

It's effectively giving kids that haven't grown up a large sum of money.

EliRivers• 9 years ago

Even so, do these VCs not install any kind of adult supervision when they put their money on the line? Sure, they don't want to just bring in their own CEO, but a little bit of guidance along the lines of "this is a fucking workplace, not somewhere for you to play out your immature sexual power fantasies and jeopardise my money" would go a long way.

duskwuff• 9 years ago

That's the impression I got too. A lot of the behavior described in the complaint reminds me of an out-of-control frat house.

drawnwren• 9 years ago

Until they have a chance to answer the complaint, we should probably reserve judgement. However, if even 10% of this is true - I can't comprehend how anyone would think this was a culture that would work in 2017.

pavlov• 9 years ago

You're thinking it too rationally. Sexual harassment begins as a test of power and turns into a perpetuating abuse of power.

A well-known American described its appeal thus:

"Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

santaclaus• 9 years ago

Or everybody is hiring 19 year old boys who physiologically can't?

Not that being 19 is an excuse, but the founders of UploadVR are closer to 30 than to 19.

johnny22• 9 years ago

> 19 year old boys who physiologically can't

I was 19 once.. it really wasn't that difficult.

minimaxir3• 9 years ago

Direct link to complaint: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3722345-UploadVR-law...

It's something.

tyingq• 9 years ago

Wow. No nuance or subtlety at all. Sounds like one of those over the top training videos, where you think, "well, sure, harassment happens, but it's not that blunt and that out in the open."

Assuming it can be corroborated well enough, I would guess a very large verdict or settlement. Sounds like a hellish place to work.

pcr0• 9 years ago

Wow, I think the article was being very kind.

notamy• 9 years ago

Holy crap. This is almost unbelievable, it's so bad. How are ANY of the things listed as complaints possibly good ideas in someone's mind!?

s73ver7• 9 years ago

Lack of separation between personal and professional life. One of the things Silicon Valley companies have been working on doing for a while is blurring the lines between work and not work.

aphextron2• 9 years ago

Good god. These guys are going to be sued into oblivion. Hope it was worth it.

UseofWeapons1• 9 years ago

I respect TechCrunch's decision to not publish the plaintiff's name in the primary portion of their article. It's easy to look up for those who have a reason to search for it, but it's not necessary to the discussion, and could potentially alleviate some of the social backlash (or at least issues) associated with going to court. Employees with legitimate legal gripes against their employers don't need to face additional barriers (such as social stigma) to legal action.

bitwize• 9 years ago

What sort of professional would even want to work at a company with an office "smush room"? Before the issues of discrimination and harassment come up, the smell of the place must be appalling.

gogopuppygogo• 9 years ago

Wow. Wonder what Robert Scoble is going to say about this... He's been talking them up recently on Facebook.

minimaxir3• 9 years ago

Scoble works (EDIT: worked) for UploadVR. https://uploadvr.com/scoble-why-vr/

izakaya27• 9 years ago

He no longer works there according to his LinkedIn, and posted this a few days ago: https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015527865493465...

leeleelee• 9 years ago

From his facebook post:

"If your executive team is mostly white guys I'm staying away too"

Um, what? Why does the race or ethnicity of the exec team have anything to do with anything? Insert any race into that sentence. Completely ridiculous. This guy is a nutball, and so is the company culture.

https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015527865493465...

mfringel• 9 years ago

How about this...

"If your executive team is mostly white guys [which indicates that you're mining from the same labor pool as everyone else, and shows you're not willing to do basic legwork,] I'm staying away too."

laser• 9 years ago

Scoble's statement: https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015528797164465...

The post others are linking to from a few days ago seems to be referencing Rackspace, as UploadVR has not lost its CEO.

kartan• 9 years ago

For example, male employees stated how they were sexually aroused by female employees and how it was hard to concentrate and be productive when all they could think about was having sex with them.
The suit also claims that the company paid male employees more despite sharing the same roles and responsibilities.

This is horrible and illegal in a lot of ways. And what were management thinking? How can anyone be productive at work with such a toxic environment? I would just be ashamed of working in such a place. And that is part of the problem, employees that do not fit in the company "culture" usually leave or are fired. So the toxic environment gets perpetuated.

I work in a company with a lot of diversity, and I like it. We have only a few female developers, as there is not so much female software engineers graduating from university, but we have better parity in all other roles. We have people from a lot of different nations, and English is our shared language even that is the native tongue for just a few. I like the open, friendly environment where people get the respect they deserve. It boosts productivity and collaboration. I wouldn't like it any other way.

pottersbasilisk• 9 years ago

A "smush room" ... gross. I haven't had to deal with that kind of gross culture since I quit an it job on wall street.

It sounds like wall street executive culture is leaking through and through silicon valley.

khazhoux• 9 years ago

I'm not so much shocked at the allegations here, but rather I'm shocked that we exist in a universe where these things are even possible. It is literally inconceivable to me to imagine a workplace like this. I can only barely imagine a living/housing environment like this (but then again, I was never in a frat, so maybe that's why?).

Talking about female coworkers? Sure, that happens.

Talk about sex at work? Sure. Not at my workplace, but ok.

Talk about rubbing one out because a coworker gave you boner? Eh.... O_o

Hell, my parents are still surprised to hear I can show up at whatever time in the morning and leave whenever I feel like it! That's what they consider outrageous.

CCing8• 9 years ago

I was writing exactly the same thing. I can't understand how this is even possible.

But fuck. How fuck can you have a sex room in the office ? How can someone have sex in the office ?

I'm seriously speechless.

cpncrunch2• 9 years ago

I just can't fathom how anyone working there could think this is acceptable. And why has it even been allowed to continue this long before without someone telling them to knock it off.

toomuchtodo5• 9 years ago

Sex in the workplace is far more common then you think.

Omnius• 9 years ago

Yeah it doesn't make sense makes it even more suspect. It's 2017 everyone knows this is a lawsuit waiting to happen and for a company to open themselves up to a lawsuit that they would HAVE to know is going to be coming seems suspect.

I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other but if any company behaves like this the deserve to be sued out of business and should be fined for stupidity.

bshimmin• 9 years ago

It's funny you mention people from an older generation. My mother worked as a secretary at a law firm in the UK in the 1960s, where she met my father. When I mentioned to her that "60% of women in tech reported unwanted sexual advances" [1], she yawned (quite literally) and said, "Is that all?" It seems hard to imagine that this fiasco, Magic Leap from last week, Uber, etc, might actually be construed as "progress", but, well...

[1] per https://www.elephantinthevalley.com

ethbro3• 9 years ago

Progress is that these things now make news. Because that's what's hopefully going to change the world. First there's publicity, then there's awareness, then there's change.

antisthenes• 9 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if a woman of average and above attractiveness don't get unwanted sexual advances every month, regardless of the industry, unless it is clearly indicated that they are married.

In that case the 60% figure seems spot on. Of course the issue here is what we define as a sexual advance. It wouldn't surprise me if some propositions to a date were miscategorized as sexual advances. Not that it makes the others OK.

Here's a question for you people directly in tech: do you think the other industries are better or worse in this regard? Has there been any studies or polls or anything even remotely scientific to study this?

sillysaurus33• 9 years ago

I don't understand why this article is on HN.

The purpose of HN is to gratify intellectual curiosity. There's nothing to learn from this, and it's not interesting. Bad things exist.

We might want to try to flag this.

beedogs• 9 years ago

What's flaggable about it? (The fact that it makes you feel weird isn't a reason, by the way.)

s73ver7• 9 years ago

I would say there is tons to learn about this. For one, if your startup starts to grow, don't do what the people in this story did. Try to make your workplace culture have a modicum of decency.

threeseed3• 9 years ago

Many people on here are trying to run startups.

Understanding company culture and sexual harassment are important issues to be educated about.

smoyer4• 9 years ago

This is the logical consequence of Peter Thiel's idea that you put bright (but often socially inept) high-school nerds directly into founding roles in companies. You end up with socially inept and socially inappropriate bosses who were never forced to conform to society's norms.

EDIT: I am not implying that Peter Thiel would condone this behavior.

trsohmers• 9 years ago

I feel I have to defend myself here to some extent (being a now former Thiel Fellow), but I can fairly safely say that the ~20 other Thiel Fellows that I would call "friends" would never do anything close to this at their companies. While there are now over 120 fellows and I do not know them all, I bet there is one or at most a small handful that could fit your description, but I would say that of any group of similar size that you were to pick from a university.

I would definitely say I am socially awkward/inept, but I don't think that necessarily correlates with being socially maladapted/unaware of societies norms. The sort of "bro" culture that exemplifies UploadVR's, Uber, and many other "hot" tech companies right now is the culture that myself and most other high-school nerds that I knew rejected... we were not the popular kids that drank, had sex, and partied. I think all of this is a symptom of technology being a much more attractive jobspace for the general public (which includes a lot of "bros") compared to just for "nerds" that it was decades ago, and your conclusion is the exact opposite of this.

Granted it is an anecdote with a relatively small sample size, but I have not seen this sort of behavior/ideas from anyone who never went to college or dropped out, but I see it from plenty of folks in their late 20s/early 30s that never grew up from their college fraternity experiences.

gotothedoctor• 9 years ago

What gives you the impression that these specific people are bright? Or were never forced to conform?

This is not how socially inept high school nerds behave; its how VC funded frat bros (who include their fraternity on their linkedin profile) do.

Not sure why I am defending Peter Thiel, but I don't think this has anything to do with him or any of his bad ideas.

jvrossb• 9 years ago

The founders are far from socially-inept nerds. Perhaps relevant in some cases, but not at all here. I think that the average socially-inept-nerd company culture may be better than what this lawsuit implies existed at Upload.

mcculley• 9 years ago

This kind of behavior has been reported at many startups. Venture capitalists have apparently made an implicit analysis that the risk of settling a lawsuit is cheaper than adult supervision and an experienced HR department. The free market has spoken.

flukus11• 9 years ago

I'm more shocked by the puritanical reactions here, it's something I'd expect from Saudi Arabia, not silicon valley.

We're all fine with ping pong tables and other forms of entertainment that aren't work related, so I don't buy the "professional environment" bullshit. But somehow sex, or just talking about sex in an office has become taboo.

Instead of being open and progressive it's back to code words and using the disabled toilet.

danso6• 9 years ago

Believe it or not, but there indeed exists, even in liberal San Francisco, a certain crowd of prudish men and women who categorize sexual intercourse differently from ping-pong, even though both are technically physical activities that can be entertaining.

palakchokshi2• 9 years ago

I'll try to take a stab at this.

1.Sex is not ping pong. It is much more personal and intimate. There is a reason sex in public is an offense and playing ping pong in public is not. It is not yet another way to blow off some steam. It can come with baggage. It does not belong in a professional environment like an office. Go have sex at home, at a hotel, at a friend's place or in a sex dungeon (if that's your scene).

2.Talk about sex at work with someone who doesn't mind it or infront of someone who doesn't mind it. Personally I am not interested in hearing about your bondage fetishes or your "conquests". Be respectful of other's wishes. If you talk about your sexual life or someone else's in front of people who do mind that creates an uncomfortable working environment.

3. If you say sex is allowed in the office who's to say what kind of sex allowed vs. not allowed? There are infinite fetishes from the mundane to the unbelievable. If you are saying, but well sex in office isn't going to happen in an open setting but in a closed room so what does it matter what fetish is being enacted, well then my friend don't be cheap, just rent a hotel room for those activities instead of asking your employer to provide you with a sex room to indulge your sexual needs. Next you'll ask them to provide you with "companions", after all your employer did provide that ping pong table right?

4. Now you may say well the "puritanical" attitudes of your coworkers creates an uncomfortable work environment for you so how about they conform to your social beliefs? Well you see the majority dictates the social norms. It is a fact of life whether you think it is fair or not. Till a majority's attitude towards openly LGBTQ work colleagues hadn't shifted towards acceptability, having them as colleagues was uncomfortable for people. Then the majority attitude changed and it became acceptable.

Now the LGBTQ community worked hard to change that mindset and my friend in our democracy you too have that option to change people's minds.

But till you have changed a majority's mind you are stuck with our rules. Deal with it.

bluetwo• 9 years ago

Many of the defendants are in this promo video.

https://upload.io

epx• 9 years ago

My lowpass filter makes me not to believe in this, but it's been wrong before :(

rsynnott• 9 years ago

Bloody hell. This sounds like a parody of a dreadful Silicon Valley company.

ajmurmann• 9 years ago

I think if a company like this was in the show Silicon Valley it would be badly received because it would be too out there and unrealistic even for that show.

s73ver7• 9 years ago

Funny story: Dan Lyons, a writer for Silicon Valley and the author of the book Disrupted, about his experiences working at the high tech startup HubSpot, said that he had pitched many things that he personally saw during his time there. He was frequently shot down because they seemed too far outside reality.

tn135• 9 years ago

I think we should always pay attention to the other side of the story before we buy into the allegations.

I am not playing down the possible harassment of any employee but let us not be blinded by the allegations alone either.

cpncrunch2• 9 years ago

If it was just general allegations about sexual behaviour at the workplace, I would be a bit skeptical. However when they provide concrete factual examples, it seems somewhat unlikely that it would be completely made up.

dang4• 9 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346056 and marked it off-topic. We also banned this account for trolling, as explained below.

Shorel• 9 years ago

I think that a surveillance society is the only possible development that can come from issues like this.

Instead of 'he said, she said', companies will have detailed records of everything said by most employees.

dba7dba2• 9 years ago

Lol, I just checked UploadVR's website and a popup window used for collecting email has following: > GET HOOKED UP

I'm not gonna even expect the accused to clean up their acts. Only way they will learn, and teach other younger ones not to copy their acts, is for the investors to hammer this down hard.

They only understand the all mighty dollars so they need to be dealt with accordingly.

dba7dba2• 9 years ago

Hm, why am I voted down?

toomuchtodo5• 9 years ago

If it's consensual and everyone is an adult, I don't see the problem. No different than everyone having sex in the meditation room at a coworking space (true story!).

But harassment and abuse? Do not pass go. Go directly to court and liquidation.

CCing8• 9 years ago

The problem is that is a fucking workplace...

If they want have sex is better for them that they don't get caught or they do at home.

Have a room/bed for sex in office is something really stupid if you want have a sane culture(imho).

toomuchtodo5• 9 years ago

Just because it's the workplace doesn't mean you can't have sex there. Every company's culture is different. Choose accordingly!

This does not mean harassment is okay. It is never okay.

glangdale• 9 years ago

The problem is that is a fucking workplace...

Well, yes.

mistersquid• 9 years ago

Consent is not an issue here. Two adults can consent to have sex in the workplace and, as a result, cause a third coworker psychological harm.

In other words, two consenting adults can create a toxic work environment, which is why sex in the office is pretty much verboten.

CCing8• 9 years ago

Totally agree and was part of my point.

Workplace should be for work. If people want have sex, they can go at home or at a motel.

tjalfi• 9 years ago

Miller v. Dept of Corrections[0] is an example of this sort of toxic work environment.

[0] http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/miller-v-dept-corrections...

dang4• 9 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346328 and marked it off-topic.

krapp5• 9 years ago

Yes, but if one must have sex in the workplace, I would rather it be in a designated area than, say, on my desk. I want to know what surfaces genitals have been pressed against and where, with a reasonable degree of confidence, they haven't.

I'm not even hung up about the sex at all, if it's consensual you do you and or whomever you like, but it's a matter of hygiene.

CCing8• 9 years ago

One shouldn't must have sex in office. So simple no ?

If you are reserve a room for sex, you(boss) are simply saying to all your employees that they can do whatever they wants in office and imho is not good for culture neither.

In your office there is a room for sex ?

krapp5• 9 years ago

One shouldn't must have sex in office. So simple no ?

Well, yes, but if people are going to anyway, might as well have a place for it.

In your office there is a room for sex ?

I work at an Amazon fulfillment center. If there were a room for sex, it wouldn't be allowed in my process path due to insufficient rate.

ethbro3• 9 years ago

I want to know what surfaces genitals have been pressed against and where

If it's rampant at my company, then call me rather remaining blissfully ignorant.

(I'll just buy Purell in bulk to be sure)

threeseed3• 9 years ago

No one MUST have sex in the workplace.

If you do you should be immediately terminated. End of story.

flukus11• 9 years ago

Why? It's none of your business what I do on my lunch break.

smoyer4• 9 years ago

Stay away from the photo-copier.

dang4• 9 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14346328 and marked it off-topic.

krapp5• 9 years ago

I can understand why you would want to prune the thread but it's not off-topic. It relates directly to the topic.

palakchokshi2• 9 years ago

I'm genuinely interested in knowing the answer to this question: What makes someone stay in a job after they've been asked to clean up a room where they found underwear and opened condom packets? Especially if the top honcho was allegedly engaged in such behavior. There is no chance the situation is going to get better no matter who you complained to. get out now!

badosu• 9 years ago

That's exactly what I was pondering after reading the lawsuit.

I mean, being told to be the 'mommy' of the male workers, not being supplied with equipment in contrary to the others, having to hear directly of mentions to threesomes and disapproval of sexual appearance, being kicked out of your room for your boss to have sex with someone in it, being ostracized by not using drugs at work.

Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction so I would not doubt that is true, I am just having great difficulty to understand how such scenario would be feasible. I mean, how could someone continue to work in a place like this for almost a year?

aphextron2• 9 years ago

What makes someone stay in a job after they've been asked to clean up a room where they found underwear and opened condom packets?

Money. The same attitude that leads to this also means six figure salaries for "social media experts".

d883kd8• 9 years ago

Male employees used that room to have sexual intercourse, which was disruptive and inappropriate.

With whom?

psyc• 9 years ago

This stands out like a sore thumb. Somehow I get the feeling this does not mean the room was used exclusively for gay male sex.

dragonwriter2• 9 years ago

Presumably, female non-employees (likely, though not necessarily exclusively, prostitutes), at least if that room is consistent with all the other allegations of sex involving male employees at company events.

projektir• 9 years ago

It's like a different universe over there.

exogeny• 9 years ago

As mentioned on TechCrunch, Greg Gopman (dude who wrote the incredibly tone-deaf anti-homeless piece that went viral a few years back) is named in the lawsuit.

Shitheads gonna shit.

nojvek• 9 years ago

I think VC's should just pull funding from companies that have dog-rain management.

Sort of like the Abhishekh Guttani case. Sites like crunch base should give them a "DO NOT FUND ASSHOLES" stamp.

UploadVR sued over ‘rampant’ sexual behavior in workplace, wrongful termination

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