How Bank of America Gave Away My Money

http://soraven.com/2017/04/05/how-bank-of-america-gave-away-my-money/

by alienchow • 9 years ago

640 222 9 years ago

soraven.com

tomohawk2• 9 years ago

Yet another reason not to use one of the big 4 banks. Credit unions and local banks are the way to go.

rapsey• 9 years ago

In case of a financial crisis the big 4 banks are going to get bailed out. Credit unions and local banks maybe.

jdietrich• 9 years ago

Bailouts are irrelevant to ordinary customers, what matters is that your account is insured by FDIC or NCUSIF.

tomohawk2• 9 years ago

It's more likely that the big banks will be bailed in, not bailed out. Which means your money is less safe there.

Also, credit unions have a different insurance scheme than the banks, which insulates them from this.

Finally, credit unions are more aware of possible jeapardy, and so tend to act more prudently.

louhike• 9 years ago

I had the same problem with one of the biggest french bank. I saw an important withdrawal on my account in a city where I wasn't. I called my bank and I explained the situation. They told me I'll get the money back in one day. I asked if I should change my credit card in case it was hacked, they told me calmy it was just an error on their part because another client had the same last name. I just couldn't believe it.

nolok• 9 years ago

Ultimately, that's what happens when it's a human that gets the final sign off. You can put all the control and checks in place you need, either the human validates the case and events like this happens, or the computer has final authority and people complain about lacking human touch and comprehension and "they know me for decades but I can't get 20 euros out without several proof of identity".

I'm not sure which way I would consider best. I guess as long as banks are stepping up to their errors and fixing them immediately as in your case, I prefer that.

brianwawok2• 9 years ago

I got a bonus 5k in my account once because a deposit was off by one digit. The bank was very prompt in taking their money back :)

mikeash4• 9 years ago

I had something like that happen with a closed credit card. I don't know what the mistake was, but I suddenly had a $6,000 statement credit due to a misapplied payment. When I called to tell them, they offered to send me a check! After I declined the misbegotten windfall, they put in a little effort and figured out where it was supposed to go.

anonymousiam• 9 years ago

About 20 years ago on a Saturday I was shopping for a new washer and dryer for a new house. I gave the cashier my Visa card (from my credit union) and was subsequently told that I was over my credit limit. (At the time that card had a $20k limit and no balance.) I used a different card and waited until Monday to contact my CU. They told me I had requested a balance transfer, but when I pressed them they realized that it was a different customer with a similar name (who was overdrawn on all accounts). Somehow the CU clerk decided to use my account because it had enough credit available to complete the request.

I closed all of my accounts at that CU shortly thereafter. (It was actually after a second fiasco where they failed to pay my property tax, but still withdrew the money from my account.)

Somehow cash under the mattress seems safer...

rodionos3• 9 years ago

While BofA has its share of blame to absorb here, the specific issue is the lack of support for unusual names such as names containing whitespace. The issue may affect other banks, big or small. I for instance had once to deal with a banking application not supporting non-US phone numbers for 2FA, and yet positioned to serve customers 24x7 globally.

justabystander2• 9 years ago

It's not like unusual name support isn't a common issue, but they also had a unique key that they failed to check - the SSN. The name at stake could have just as easily been Bob Smith.

The issue in this case wasn't a technological one, but a procedural one. Third-party withdrawal due to court proceedings is an exceptional scenario - not a regular one. Managerial staff would have had to sign off. Someone had to explicitly decide to ignore all the conflicting information.

rodionos3• 9 years ago

Sure, the SSN wildcarding was totally inappropriate.

Noughmad• 9 years ago

Was the bank really at fault here? From what I see they receive a legal letter from the Sheriff’s Department, and they complied with the letter. The article doesn't say what was included in the letter to the bank, I assume the author doesn't know either. It could have the wrong SSN, or the Sheriff’s Department just looked up the defendant's name, found the author's account number and SSN, and sent those to the bank.

ScottBurson2• 9 years ago

It's true, we don't know what was in the letter, but there was probably some information that didn't match.

Even if not, the bank still failed to notify him in time to contest the levy. That makes it their fault.

justabystander2• 9 years ago

Any major corporation has lawyers (either in-house or on retainer) to verify that court orders are valid before complying with them. Bank of America either chose not to use them, or they didn't do their own due diligence. You can bet this wouldn't have happened if the case involved several hundred thousands (or millions) of dollars.

Court orders have to be specific for a reason - to protect property rights. If some of the information on a court order doesn't match the facts, the proper thing to do is challenge it. Using a warrant as an example, law enforcement isn't allowed to get a judge to allow them to enter a property and just take "anything incriminating". They need to specifically list what they're taking, what case it's in conjunction to, and how the property relates to the case. They're not allowed to take anything that doesn't match the exact specifics of the order.

And if any of that information is wrong, the order is invalid and executing it makes people liable to civil suits. The bank should have challenged it themselves, since they had the necessary information to do so (a name and SSN). Failing that, they should have informed the customer with sufficient time to do it for them.

Bank of America doesn't deserve a pass on this. They screwed up. The court did, too, but it's BoA's job to hold on to people's money and verify identities before handing it out. Had they just told the court that the bank account didn't match the specified person, the court would have taken "no" for an answer.

ScottBurson2• 9 years ago

Maybe try suing the bank in small claims court. They were clearly negligent.

perlpimp2• 9 years ago

Not sure if you have small claims court in America. In Canada for losses under 10000$ process is fairly straightforward. You should file and follow the process. If they don't give money back, go to the court and execute writ of seizure. One guy did this.

http://business.time.com/2011/06/06/homeowner-forecloses-on-...

josh_fyi• 9 years ago

They would say "we had no choice, it was a court order. The sheriff's department is responsible for the mistake."

perlpimp2• 9 years ago

Obviously bank didn't even validate SSN:

“Is the last four digit of your SSN not 5189 (not the actual digits)?”

Sounds like brunt of this mistake lies with the bank.

probably_wrong• 9 years ago

In theory: the blog's author would counter argue that BoA didn't perform due diligence in checking that the order mentioned the correct person, and even then, they didn't send the notification on time. The court rules against BoA, and it's up to their lawyers to recoup the money.

In practice: BoA pays straight out of their pocket, sends those $3.4K to losses, and shuts this down before the media finds out. And based on the speed of votes this article is getting, they will find out.

BinaryIdiot2• 9 years ago

I'm not sure I follow. The legal order required them to withdraw money from someone with a different name and SSN than who was involved in the case?

That's not a winning argument.

maxlybbert2• 9 years ago

Small claims court is actually mentioned in the Constitution. However, the actual guarantee in the Constitution is for claims of less than $20. All states also allow you to file for larger amounts, usually something like $5000.

wyldfire2• 9 years ago

I think you're referring to Amendment VII which provides for jury trials in matters greater than $20, not less than. This refers to guarantees of federal civil courts, in which this matter (all parties local to CA?) would likely not fall.

"In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

kevin_b_er2• 9 years ago

Assuming he's not also under mandatory binding arbitration, a monkey court that will side with BoA's theft of 3 thousand dollar.s

wjnc• 9 years ago

What I don't get: Why would he pursue some court order he's not a party to? The only logical counterparty to this dispute is BoA. They gave away your money without proper title. That shouldn't hold up in court? That they gave some money to the LA Sheriff’s Department, that would be BoA to recoup.

AimHere• 9 years ago

Trouble is, this guy is a random citizen who doesn't know much about how the law works, and so it hasn't clicked who the correct plaintiff would be for his case.

He'd probably get told who the right parties to lodge a complaint against, if there was any lawyer willing to talk to him for about 15 minutes, but the last half of the article is basically him being bounced all over California by legal professionals who won't speak to him, because he's out of their bailiwick.

It's the XY problem in legal form...

HelloNurse• 9 years ago

It's the technical mindset: the court order from Southern California is wrong, let's fix it!

BinaryIdiot2• 9 years ago

Why would he pursue some court order he's not a party to? The only logical counterparty to this dispute is BoA.

As someone very ignorant in how to handle legal issues, as the story went on I originally thought he had to go through the court system to get his fees returned. It didn't occur to me, until the very end, that it's something he needs to dispute with BoA.

Obviously the author needs to take BoA to small claims court but it took me a little while to realize that so I can understand.

Pigo• 9 years ago

If I got told I had to travel 6 hours to retrieve my money due to someone else's mistake, it would probably take law enforcement to calm the scene I would cause. I'm wondering how much this poor guy was bounced around because he was too much of a gentleman to express his frustration.

the-dude• 9 years ago

In The Netherlans, but I suspect it is EU wide, they won't check the name at all when doing an ordinary transfer. And this is all banks.

yardie• 9 years ago

You mean the IBAN? We've used it to send money back and forth between people and companies all the time. For the most part it works. And if there is a dispute or error it can be reversed.

LWdkw• 9 years ago

No. They do not check the name at all. They use the IBAN. They do not verify the IBAN against the corresponding name.

wichert• 9 years ago

I doubt that would have helped here, since the bank itself did the matching and picked the wrong account.

EU (IBAN to be exact) bank accounts do have a check digit, so typos tend to be caught and result in a transfer being blocked. More relevantly Dutch banks are going to add name checking in 2017 as an extra protection as well. The exact introduction date will vary per bank.

PeterisP2• 9 years ago

Well, this is not a normal (customer initiated) transfer, that's seizing funds from an account by legal order, which is not really related.

dagenleg• 9 years ago

I especially like how in every case of being screwed by the bureaucracy the lowly citizen has only one option - go the the lawyers. And what are those? More bureaucracy!

Neliquat2• 9 years ago

The corp ones, somewhat. The kind the lowly citizen would hire is more of a hired guide to hack his way thru the red tape to the goal. Dont paint all lawyers with the same brush.

maxxxxx• 9 years ago

Even worse, they cost substantial money.

andy_ppp• 9 years ago

Don't mess around with the court, the whole thing is Bank of America's problem, don't let them make it your fault or the courts. They have debited the wrong account, you can prove this; in the UK if this happened and they didn't return me my money I would take them to the small claims court which can be filled in online. Surely California must have this?

chadcmulligan• 9 years ago

Australia has a banking ombudsman that resolves disputes like this, though I've never had reason to use it. There's also a telecommunications ombudsman - it's a magic word whenever the phone companies screw up (a fairly regular occurrence, though less so recently), I just say I'm recording this call to send to the ombudsman and everything is fixed really quickly.

I believe there a sort of government service but the banks/telcos pay for them by each complaint they get charged - it's free for consumers and works well.

I realise it doesn't help the ops current problem but just mentioning it as a good solution.

di_ry• 9 years ago

Bank of America – what is a SSN?

reboog711• 9 years ago

SSN = Social Security Number.

Basically, an identification number used by US Citizens.

LordKano3• 9 years ago

It has become a taxpayer ID number too. It's not just citizens. Every individual who is legally authorized to work has one. Every legal entity (like corporations) that has assets usually has one too.

mjevans2• 9 years ago

An ~8 min history lesson.

"Social Security Cards Explained" - CGP Grey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus

chrisvoss• 9 years ago

Wow what a horror show

CPLX3• 9 years ago

If you know a little bit about legal procedure dealing with something like this shouldn't be too hard.

You'd file against your local bank based on the address of the branch you go to for an order to show cause hearing where they are tasked to show up and show cause as to why the transfer of money should go forward. You'd state the basic grounds of mistaken identity, propose a temporary restraining order barring any further action until the case is heard, and go to the court for a judge to sign the order and give instructions for service.

Once it gets on everyone's radar as a conflicting court proceeding (rather than a customer service complaint) they'd likely quickly get to the bottom of it.

It sounds really hard but it isn't, most courts in bigger cities at least will have an office where you can make an appointment to get free volunteer legal help.

Yes this will burn a couple slightly frustrating afternoons getting it together but it's eminimently possible to do, and an interesting exercise for the average person who enjoys learning how things work.

scrummytim2• 9 years ago

If you know a little bit about legal procedure dealing with something like this shouldn't be too hard.

Well, responses on here vary from "sue the bank, it's their fault," to "contact/sue the LASD, it's their fault" to "contact the plaintiff's lawyers, they'll fix it" to "contact the defendant's lawyers, they'll pay for it or else."

So clearly, this is likely to cost more than a couple afternoons.

One day, a sheriff showed up at my home and confiscated my guns. Turns out some lunatic that I don't even know had filed a domestic abuse restraining order against me and the state I was in grants a temporary order by default. Took 2 months to resolve this and cost me about $6k in legal fees. Took several months to get my guns back.

While that's not the same as "you're not actually the guy named in the lawsuit", it illustrates how disruptive this kind of thing can be.

matt_wulfeck3• 9 years ago

Absolutely. And he's lucky it was just $4k. What of it was $100k and included money you needed to live and pay the mortgage with? This type of negligence by the bank is downright scary.

late2part2• 9 years ago

I'm sorry that happened to you. You shouldn't lose our 2nd amendment rights based on unsubstantiated claims that you can't defend against. Very unfair and not right.

Unfortunately, this is the law in California. But it should be changed, because it's unconstitutional and it's not right.

wilsynet• 9 years ago

You'd file [...] an order to show cause hearing where they are tasked to show up and show cause as to why the transfer of money should go forward.

The article very plainly describes how he was not notified until after the transfer of money already occurred.

sounds• 9 years ago

File it anyway. Get it on their radar.

CPLX3• 9 years ago

Then you'd file an OSC with a draft order to restore the money to the account. The only catch would be convincing a judge to sign it, which if you stated the basic facts reasonably clearly and had a little help making sure formatting was correct would likely not be a problem.

The overall point is that courts are just another system with a ton of formal rules and procedures, but for the average programmer/hacker type it's really not that hard to learn the basics of how things work and make some headway.

People have a slightly irrational fear of the court system (only slightly irrational, it is terrifying) that tends to be paralyzing. Walking in the front door of the court and asking for help, plus a little online research, can help quite a bit. There's quite a few options available to your average smart citizen who wants to navigate it alone.

bgentry• 9 years ago

In California, I don't believe you can file against a local branch. You'd need to file against BofA at their central legal location for service, which I believe is in LA. However, I think (though not sure) you can still file the case itself in the county where you reside.

I know this because I recently filed a small claims case that included Chase as a defendant, and this was the process.

The small (<10k) amount of money makes this a bit difficult because that typically falls within the realm of small claims, and they don't move quickly with court dates. My hearing date was about 3 months after filing. Maybe there are special procedures for things that have to move quickly like this?

CPLX3• 9 years ago

Maybe there are special procedures for things that have to move quickly like this?

Yes that's what I'm proposing. I don't know CA specifically but in general courts have what's called a "special term" or an "ex parte part" or something similar. In that court a judge is sitting during the day and is available to sign orders that relate to exigent circumstances, which this would qualify for.

Typically you can file an OSC and/or a TRO and seek temporary relief while you make arrangements to actually begin a proper suit. It's very commonly used, for example to prevent a business partner from cleaning out an office full of jointly owned supplies, or preventing the auction of a property when there's a dispute over ownership.

It's very different from the long slow plodding process by which an actual court case proceeds. But it's applicable here since this isn't an actual court case, it's mistaken identity. Once it comes to everyone's attention formally, with a judge's order, it's almost certain to end right there.

mirimir• 9 years ago

I don't get how BoA would pay when the SSN didn't match.

But maybe the LASD didn't cite the SSN, but just the bank account that they had erroneously identified. But still, it's mind-boggling that they'd be so sloppy.

jandrese6• 9 years ago

It is not shocking at all that the bank had sloppy accounting. You don't get very many highly motivated professionals to sit around an office and help people fill out checking account applications all day. It's a retail gig with a fairly low salary, not much different than running a register at the Gap. If you are doing anything even slightly out of the ordinary you will run into headaches more often than not.

rewrew2• 9 years ago

Exactly, the error is on LASD's end most likely. Whether he likes it or not he's going to have to get a lawyer to get this resolved.

pmarreck• 9 years ago

This entire fiasco could have been avoided if people were identified correctly. Here's another recent article where simply using "firstname lastname DOB" as a primary key resulted in a collision: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/03/identity-the...

watbe• 9 years ago

This is horrific, but what a fascinating story and outcome. Thanks for sharing

dllthomas4• 9 years ago

Discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14022588

rodionos3• 9 years ago

Likely, there is a dataset on data.gov published by CFPB which consolidates consumer complaints in a federal database.

https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/consumer-complaint-database...

BofA ranks first by the total number of cases which is to be expected given their footprint. What's notable is that BofA has actually improved over time.

https://github.com/axibase/atsd-use-cases/blob/master/Consum...

unlmtd2• 9 years ago

BoA gave everybody's money-substitute-government-credit away, but few have realised it (Even thou BoA says so themselves in their financial statements). So the guy is lucky in a way; he now doesn't trust the thieves. Even fewer realise that the banknotes they are so proudly holding have long ago been defaulted on. It's all running on illusions now. Sell your paper.

unlmtd2• 9 years ago

Amazing how much down voting one gets for stating facts.

function_seven• 9 years ago

It’s barely related to this story, and isn’t that interesting of a comment. Sorry.

mdekkers• 9 years ago

Repeat after me:"The only clients of a bank are its' shareholders"

LordKano3• 9 years ago

Which is precisely why I switched to a credit union over a decade ago and don't plan on ever going back to a bank.

DiabloD3• 9 years ago

As far as I know, the only correct action is to write a letter detailing the entire situation to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency in Washington DC.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

jwn• 9 years ago

Maybe you can elaborate as to why this is the correct course of action? I've never heard of this office.

gergles• 9 years ago

They are BoA's federal regulator.

gtsteve• 9 years ago

I don't understand why he's taking this on himself to be honest. If I was incorrectly named in some sort of lawsuit, my first reaction would be to call my lawyer. Who knows if there's also an incorrect arrest warrant out for example?

Reason077• 9 years ago

He hasn't been incorrectly named in a lawsuit. His Bank of America account was mistakenly debited as a result of a legal order against some other, unrelated person with a similar name.

ryandrake2• 9 years ago

Most people don't have lawyers to call. The last 1/3 of his story was about him calling lawyers trying to find one who would talk to him.

If someone told me to call my lawyer I wouldn't know what to do. I don't have a lawyer. I don't know people who "have lawyers" or can recommend one. I met a lawyer once, I think, when I bought my previous house. I'd probably search online for "Lawyers in San Francisco" and pick one at random.

jumpkickhit2• 9 years ago

In the article, the amount taken was $3,400.

A lawyer to fight this costs a lot more than that. Also, there's another issue. What if that was his entire savings? Now he has $0 for a lawyer.

uptown• 9 years ago

Reminds me a bit of this article -- similar names crossed up in beurocratic negligence.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/03/identity-the...

Eric_WVGG• 9 years ago

I read that yesterday too, good article.

Left me thinking that people who give their children names like River Phoenix or Seven Costanza might be on to something.

bm1362• 9 years ago

I recently went through a similar legal situation to recover basically the same small amount. I find these incidents to be really interesting and oddly beautiful.

Exploring the broken beaurocracy to retrieve your money is a game; when you finally send enough documents and certified letters to satisfy/scare the otherside it's extremely satisfying.

hutzlibu• 9 years ago

Hm ... the bank acted clearly careless, but I am surprised that there is so little blame on the court/sherrif, as they messed up in the first place and then in the end to not really be willing to undo their misstake.

dllthomas4• 9 years ago

Do we really know it was the court/sheriff who messed up in the first place? Maybe the actual defendant also had a BofA account, and the mixup was entirely by BofA. (Maybe not - I just don't see a means we have to distinguish, from afar).

ewams2• 9 years ago

They have failed to pay back billions, much less $3k. Do not do business with any organization on this list: https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

ryanackley• 9 years ago

From your own source, the government _made_ about 2 billion off of the BofA bailout. This includes the 2 billion write-off of TARP funds they gave to the home mortgage group.

Not defending BofA, just saying your source material doesn't make the point you think it does.

ewams2• 9 years ago

You are correct, thank you I read the last update wrong. I personally still attempt to not do business with these organizations for multiple reasons.

viewer5• 9 years ago

Disclaimer: I know very little about any of this, and am just commenting because I was surprised by one of the places listed. That place listed, I work for its 'sister' credit union, State Employees' Credit Union (NC)

It looks like the list items are there for different reasons, not all because they're big lenders who got bailed out. I clicked on Greater Kinston Credit Union[1]. Its reason for being on there is the 'Community Development Capital Initiative'[2].

Excerpt from [2]: 'designed to provide cheap financing to Community Development Financial Institutions (CDFI): banks, thrifts or credit unions that operate in markets underserved by traditional financial institutions. The idea was that the banks would then lend that money to small businesses in their areas.'

That one sounds pretty benign (i.e. it's not "bailing out Too Big To Fail companies for crappy practices"--GKCU is a small credit union), so I think the list you posted is more nuanced than crappy Too Big To Fail bailout companies.

[1] https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/entities/936-greater... [2] https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/programs/13-communit...

bandrami2• 9 years ago

All TARP funds were paid back with interest. From a revenue standpoint, the government should bail out banks more often.

wheelerwj3• 9 years ago

what?

samfisher83• 9 years ago

I have had a similar issue before just call office controller currency. They are pretty good about getting on the banks.

tstegart2• 9 years ago

He should be calling up the plaintiff's lawyers, not BOA. Lawyers don't want to collect only to have to give it back. Find out who they are and call them. Any other attorneys involved as well. Once they have proof the money should not be given out, any ethical attorney would be very wary of handing out money.

It's also likely the money will be sitting in the trust account of an attorney before it actually gets dispersed, so he has more time that way. Contacting the bank for help in the legal system is totally the wrong way to solve this. They've given the money away and can't actually get it back even if they tried. They're a useless avenue at the moment.

wheelerwj3• 9 years ago

Not bad, contact the defendants attorney in writing, then inform them that you will be notifying the bar as well

tstegart2• 9 years ago

No need to wait that long, just call them and say you'll fax over the proof. Lawyers don't want to be a party to a lawsuit later over a few thousand dollars if they might clearly lose it.

They will keep some of his money as fees and give some out to clients, so then if they can't get it back from clients, depending on the rules, they might have to come up with it all themselves. No regular attorney wants that, nor do they want the hassle.

Just call them all up and say this money isn't from one of the defendants, it's an accidental transfer from an unrelated third party and they will be getting it back.

pbreit• 9 years ago

He should find a lawyer friend to help him out. And change his attitude 180 degrees.

joshuaheard• 9 years ago

This would be my advice as well; talk to the Plaintiff's attorney. I have all my business accounts at B of A. I shopped around, and they have the best online banking services. Part of the problem is arcane banking laws. Since I opened the accounts at B of A in Texas and now live in Seattle. Even though I walk into the B of A office here in Seattle, my accounts are "out of state" and require all sorts of extra paperwork.

uiri• 9 years ago

Is there no way for you to change the home branch of your account? I can imagine it being a giant hassle if the routing number would change. At least neither WA nor TX have state income tax.

In Canada, the branch number is part of it so that would definitely have to change but the federal government has sole jurisdiction over banks so out-of-province isn't an issue.

nathantotten• 9 years ago

Wells Fargo did this to me many years ago from a business account. The State of California issued a seizer for unpaid taxes for another business. In the end I think Wells Fargo told us that our tax ID numbers were similar. We did end up getting the money back from the state of California after about 3 years. We of course never got back the penalties Wells Fargo charged or interest.

jumpkickhit2• 9 years ago

Wells Fargo did similar to me too. However, they then deleted all of my account history (I was paperless) and demanded I call their corporate office, refusing to do anything in writing.

Glad you were able to resolve things, I wasn't able to.

cthulhuology• 9 years ago

If everyone on this thread tweeted his story, he'll get his money back. In the age of social media, the only effective tool we have against corporations is public shaming.

stephen_g• 9 years ago

I've found it's best not to get involved in that kind of mob justice when you don't necessarily know all the details.

This case seems pretty legit, but you never know when someone is leaving out important parts of the story that change things entirely!

dllthomas4• 9 years ago

For something like this, I've no reason to believe small claims court isn't also an effective tool.

alexandercrohde• 9 years ago

Maybe "functional" is a valid adjective, but "effective" is not. If the guy had gotten on a phone with a lawyer, and the lawyer said "All you need to is go to small claims court against x and bring Y" that might have made things possible.

The awful interface of our legal system is one of the key ways that the less wealthy and less educated get an unfair treatment. Any wealthy person would get this reversed and get their legal fees paid for too.

threepipeproblm• 9 years ago

BofA also launders money for gangs, according to the FBI https://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB100014240527023032922045...

They had to pay $17 billion because of the scale to which they institutionalized mortgage fraud http://nypost.com/2014/08/21/bank-of-america-to-pay-record-1...

The other big banks aren't too different... I went with a small, local bank years ago and haven't looked back.

Find a Local Bank http://banklocal.info/

Vivtek• 9 years ago

According to the article, he also has a credit union - as well as a BoA account which is his current headache.

passivepinetree• 9 years ago

Why not find a credit union instead? Even better than a local bank because their goal isn't to profit off of their members.

phkahler• 9 years ago

The error was committed by the LASD, their response here is wrong:

A few minutes later, she came back with the bad news. “Why didn’t you call earlier? It’s too late for us to withdraw the request. The money was already sent to the court! You need to go down to the courthouse and ask them to show you the court documents.”

It is not his problem what they did with the money, they took it from him plain and simple. The error was on their part and how they correct it on the other end is their problem.

Back in the day when people use MCI for some of their phone services , I got an adder to my phone bill from ATT (my carrier) for a charge attributed to a John Fox. I called ATT a couple times and pointed out that I'm not John Fox and they tried to tell me to call MCI. MCI used their LEC billing agreement to have ATT collect the fee. At some point I explained that I was not an MCI customer, had no relationship with them and that ATT had actually charged this fee to me, which is incorrect - how they wanted to deal with MCI or John Fox was their problem. They credited my account and I never heard about John Fox again.

EDIT: Actually the comment below by CLPX is better - the bank did this, they took his money and it is THEIR problem not the LASD. My point remains somewhat valid, it's not your problem to chase the money after someone wrongly took it - it's their problem. The bank didn't do a decent job of verification - they went on a partial name match alone apparently (no SSN, no account number, WTF).

late2part2• 9 years ago

Your anecdote about inter-carrier billing is a good one.

It reminds me of a position one of my best friends takes on "identity theft." He asserts it simply doesn't exist.

What bank's call identity theft most of the world calls "Bank Fraud." The banks don't want to eat it - so they lobby congress to pass laws making it your fault if a bad person tricks the bank.

tl;dr: Similar to how banks try to make identity theft your problem when it's really bank fraud.

gertef• 9 years ago

"Mitchell & Webb Sound - Identity Theft" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E

Terr_• 9 years ago

Exactly: While "identify theft" is worth keeping around to refer to a kind of criminality, at least 90% of the time the real problem is institutions which fail their due-diligence.

Then they deny their negligent role and try to unjustly shift the cost onto their customers. What we actually need (as a society) is better backpressure on this kind of stuff, so that the institutions and processes actually improve at the weak point.

jandrese6• 9 years ago

It's a conundrum. He could tell the branch manager to fix it since it was their mistake, but with the low level of competence displayed by said branch manager it is doubtful he would ever see his money again. Maybe try to elevate it to the district manager in the hopes that they can find their ass with both hands?

dghughes• 9 years ago

...So what we do here is match you with one of our members for a $30 fee which guarantees you a 30-minute conversation...

That's a good service to have I needed it and was referred but ten days later still no callback. And there was deadline I had to honour long passed. There was little time between when I needed the lawyer which I can't afford and the deadline. Scumbags know the law so well you are screwed for time trying to fight anyone.

hedora2• 9 years ago

Consider taking LASD, BofA and the LAPD to small claims court in a single case in Northern California.

All three of them acted together to take the $3.4k, and I suspect there would be a settlement rather than an actual day in court.

It might be too late, but maybe call the BofA fraud department and tell them it was an unauthorized charge. "Unauthorized charge" is like the root password for banks.

hedora2• 9 years ago

It might also be possible to call the judge that handled the case and ask for help.

Based on jury duty selection it is more or less the judge's job to babysit lawyers of varying degrees of competence. The judge's office should at least be able to get you on the line with the right person.

instaheat3• 9 years ago

I know how to handle these dumb fucks. (I had a Mortgage with them, that makes me an expert)

I had a problem with them coughing up an escrow refund check, although there is much more to the story that would have most of you boiling.

I filed complaints with a total of 3 agencies and received my check via FedEx Priority overnight not long after. Suck it, BofA.

* Filed complaint with CFPB * Filed with Texas State Attorney General's Office (Insert your state here) * Filed complaint with Office of the Comptroller of Currency (HelpWithMyBank.gov)

Trust me. If you file a very well articulated complaint to each of these entities, they will feel the heat and resolve it.

I hope this information helps you alienchow, and many others.

wyldfire2• 9 years ago

CFPB was just called out [1, 2] by Rep. Jeb Hensarling as unaccountable and a "rogue agency". The head of CFPB responded in an interview this morning [3].

Mr. Jiang, you'd better get your complaint in now before they're disbanded!

[1] http://www.npr.org/2017/04/05/522756745/head-of-consumer-fin...

[2] http://www.npr.org/2017/02/24/516983751/rep-jeb-hensarling-c...

[3] http://www.npr.org/2017/04/06/522826544/consumer-financial-p...

dmix3• 9 years ago

It says they want to replace the head guy and restructure the agency. This is why:

A 2013 press release from the House Services Committee (HSC) criticized the CFPB for what was described as a "radical structure" that "is controlled by a single individual who cannot be fired for poor performance and who exercises sole control over the agency, its hiring and its budget." Moreover, the HSC alleged a lack of financial transparency, lack of accountability to Congress or the President, and expressed particular concern about excessive travel costs and a $55 million renovation of CFPB headquarters that was more costly than "the entire annual construction and acquisition budget for GSA for the totality of federal buildings".

Of course it sounds bad that they want to shut down a 'consumer protection' agency. But those sound like legitimate concerns. At a minimum a restructuring sounds like a good thing.

cmurf• 9 years ago

Republicans increasingly find these government ombudsmans as rogue. Companies should get to accost their customers, and if the customers don't like it, take business elsewhere. If a contract is violated, hire a lawyer and sue. Good people have money and can hire good lawyers. If you don't have money, get in line for a pro bono lawyer. It's completely reasonable and fair to have to wait years for this; afterall rich people are better, and therefore they shouldn't have to wait their turn for justice, they can simply buy it. Justice is a product.

That's basically where Republican ideology is at right now. It's openly hostile to anti-trust and anti-fraud law. Without those things, trust burns down. And that leads to dark places. But pretty much I think Republicans are that short sighted and stupid. They're totally consumed by the pursuit of money and exploitation, and are drunk on it.

Arizhel• 9 years ago

Yep, with the way things are going now, you can expect consumer protections to disappear and for companies like BofA to be able to steal your money left and right. (this isn't sarcasm, sadly)

pbarnes_13• 9 years ago

It's only "rogue" because it actually helps people.

nikanj• 9 years ago

How to handle this: 1) Get your story on the front page of a mid-large news aggregator. 2) Wait.

tmaly• 9 years ago

This is totally the way to go. The cost for their compliance department to deal with a set of complaints will far out weight the money they owe you.

Also, switching to a smaller regional bank if you have the possibility is a good choice.

Remember Bank of America is the bank that took all the farms from the farmers during the Great Depression.

instaheat3• 9 years ago

I received several phone calls from their Regulatory complaints/compliance department. Played phone tag with them for a few days, until I finally just left them a message instructing them to refer to the resolution on my complaint.

They actually give you a field to fill out on the agency websites:

"What would you like to see happen as a result of this complaint?"

Basically just said send me my money. They held onto it for more than 6 months.

What is laughable is before I got fed up dealing with lower level employees and managers, I had them telling me to consult legal counsel - over an $1,800 check.

Yeah pay an attorney $1,800 to represent me .. to receive $1,800! Makes sense of BofA! Why didn't I think of that?

brightball• 9 years ago

It's amazing how well that stuff works when dealing with big companies. Years ago I had an issue with Dish. Spent hours on the phone getting passed around to different people who would give me their left pinky to avoid resolving the issue. Finally filed a complaint with the BBB and within a week got a phone call that the issue was being resolved (and the person making the call was not happy about it).

amorphid• 9 years ago

The CFPB is pretty awesome. I will try that next time I need to resolve something.

Here's a trick I have used in the past to deal with a large USA financial company...

- call corporate Headquarters

- Ask for the Chairman of the Board's office

- When they ask why, just say you only need to leave a message with their executive assistant

- when you get the EA on the line, say you'd like to complain, and have made a good faith effort to go through normal channels, but now your are pissed that the company has <thing that could get bad press if it got picked up by the media>

- that has gotten my stuff fixed twice, once to get debt a shady debt collector off my back (2009 was a rough year), and another to get an unpaid invoice paid

Basically, when a company screws up by taking your money, they don't want to draw the wrong kind of attention. "<Financial institution> makes mistake it can't (can't, not won't) fix" projects incompetence, which is a direct assault on the reputation of trust, stability, and prestige. No bank could survive if the proverbial fine print included "most of the time, we don't lose your money!"

instaheat3• 9 years ago

Submit to all 3. That is what worked for me. (That is, if you are dealing with a Financial institution.)

coding123• 9 years ago

I think I might ask my employer to pay me in bitcoin soon. Or shit, maybe gold bars that I pick up every few weeks.

solotronics2• 9 years ago

I use bitwage and most of my paycheck is automatically converted to Bitcoin.

SketchySeaBeast• 9 years ago

And here I was wondering what my new anxiety for the day would be.

matt_wulfeck3• 9 years ago

This amount of money seems like it would be a good candidate for small claims court. Can anyone tell me if this guy can use small claims court (which is easy to initiate) to recover the money? I feel like even if he lodged a motion against the branch manager for negligence it might be enough to get things cleared up.

RichardHeart• 9 years ago

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world that when the bank gets money stolen from it, it's your money, and not theirs.

hardlianotion• 9 years ago

When you have finally managed to get Bank of America to sort out their nonsense, do a little research and change bank. Hopefully, there are banks in the US that aren't that unprofessional.

asgeirn• 9 years ago

Is it actually possible to have a comfortable life in the US of A without a family lawyer?

jandrewrogers• 9 years ago

I will never use Bank of America again, for similar reason.

On two separate occasions they "lost" transfers to the IRS (totaling $40k) that I only discovered when the IRS came after me for failure to pay taxes. I had full receipts from BofA for the transfers that apparently never happened. At least as disconcerting, the reaction of BofA to the situation both times suggested that sending money to /dev/null was a routine occurrence in their organization.

code4tee• 9 years ago

Wow. Lots of parties liable here. Reeks of those cases where banks forceclosed on the wrong houses.

Sad that one has to go public like this to get anything to happen, but I suspect that it will help showing the world how incompetent the involved parties were.

I remember there being some brilliant story in the reverse direction where someone sued a bank (I believe it was BoA) for something like this and won. When the bank didn't respond they got the court to allow property seizure to recover damages. Guy rocked up at a local bank branch and started taking computers and such with court order in hand and sheriff watching. He was legally robbing the bank. Bank reacted quite quickly then!

mankash666• 9 years ago

Why isn't anyone questioning the LASD for fucking up a basic SSN comparison before requesting a fund-transfer from BoFA? Isn't this really the LASD's fault. Can't you sue the LASD for damages?

rewrew2• 9 years ago

You need to hire a lawyer. It's not fair but that's how this is. This is going to haunt you forever -- not just this account! You have to do so ASAP and get this straightened out so you have the paperwork to prove it next time this happens. You also should write Consumer Reports Web site -- they'll love this story.

ChuckMcM• 9 years ago

In this case I think the author is railing on BofA too much, unless the court said "pony up any money from any account" I'm guessing they specifically asked BofA for the money from this particular account. The person responsible here is the Sheriff's office and they are the ones that should be pursued.

curun1r• 9 years ago

My personal nightmare with BofA started when they merged with Fleet. I had a credit card with Fleet and it had been set to auto-pay the balance every month. After the merger, the auto-pay got disabled without telling me and by the time I realized it two months later, around $20 of interest had accrued. After customer support calls to try to get it resolved, they refused to refund the interest. So I asked to cancel my account and asked for the full-payoff amount and the address to mail the check. Since I had paperless billing, I didn't have an official slip to send in with my payment, but I wrote my Fleet account number on the check and the check was cashed a couple of weeks later. I assumed the unpleasant situation was finished.

Little did I know, my nightmare was just beginning. Several years later, I was applying for an apartment and I failed the credit check. I got a hold of my credit report and saw that BofA claimed I had a large unpaid balance that was several years behind. After calling them many times to try to resolve it, we finally figured out that they had credited my payment to a non-existent account and that my account had a different BofA account number that was different from my Fleet account number. I thought that would clear everything up, but after they reconciled the two accounts, they still claimed I owed them over $4k in interest that had accrued on the unpaid account. No amount of common sense could make them realize that they cashed my full-payout amount check so my account should be fully paid off. It took getting a lawyer involved for them to finally zero out my account and, by that time, I'd missed out on the apartment. The lawyer also helped me dispute the credit mark on my account with the agencies because BofA refused to remove it. Hundreds of hours of my life calling their inept customer service and over $1k in legal fees all because of their screw-ups.

BofA are a truly despicable company that doesn't give customer service reps the ability to make even obvious, common-sense adjustments which leads situations like mine. Whenever I have the chance, I try to warn people away from doing business with them. They literally took a happy customer (I loved Fleet) and, through incompetence unwillingness to act reasonably, turned him into an enemy for life. And all for $20.

gumby3• 9 years ago

my credit union was infinitely more competent than the buffoons at Bank of America.

This. It's not even a pro-credit union thing: small banks handle exceptional situations much better than big banks in my experience. You'd think it would be the opposite, but it's not. When the tellers know every customer, even when I almost never walk in, exceptions seem to generate a helpful phone call.

gumby3• 9 years ago

BTW what's with the weird grey fade out effect at the bottom? It simply slows down reading. Fortunately "reader mode" works.

gumby3• 9 years ago

A comment on the article advises filing a theft report. This has worked for me twice. The one most relevant to HN:

Crappy payroll company ADP double-debited the quarterly IRS tax payment for payroll. (Luckily I always have payroll checks written out of a payroll-only account, so when the account went negative the bank called me so I could transfer additional money (about a half a million bucks) in and nobody's paycheck bounced). To make a long story short ADP refused to do anything and when I finally got to talk to the district manager he insisted his hands were tied. "I don't know why you keep saying we improperly took your money -- we didn't! The money is at the IRS and in three months you can just declare it as a credit on your next payment. We don't have your money at all." Finally I agreed with him, "you're right! I will stop saying you took your money and will instead use the correct vocabulary, 'grand theft', 'fraud', and 'abuse of power of attorney'. Since you prefer the precise terminology, if the money is not in my account by 2PM (note: that's when the fed wire closes) I'll drive over to the Santa Clara district Attorney's office and swear a complaint."

Oddly enough the money that they supposedly didn't have was in our account by 1pm.

darkmirage• 9 years ago

I wrote the blog post. It turns out writing a blog post works better than talking to the bank beyond simple catharsis. Just got a call from someone from Bank of America's social media team who credited the money back to my account. Thanks for all the suggestions here!

therealdrag0• 9 years ago

We see this all the time. Pretty frustrating that you need to create a PR fuss for issues to be addressed.

solotronics2• 9 years ago

Bitcoin is the solution.. banking is broken for consumers because once you give a bank your money it's NOT YOURS.

vivaamerica• 9 years ago

Interesting response video from Martin Shkreli, who is mostly known for his EpiPen scandal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HROHxpDE6Dw

oblib• 9 years ago

BOA is probably the worst institutions I've ever dealt with and I never even opened an account with them.

I did get to close one I had with them though and that was a very good day for me because I was among the very 1st of many here who did the same and I got to watch what happened to them here from start to end.

They came to Branson Missouri and bought out a well loved local bank where I had my business account. I closed it as soon as I found out. As the new management came and started enforcing BOA policy people learned fast that I and a few others familiar with them weren't bullshitting about them.

Soon, the long time employees of the old bank started leaving because they weren't willing to piss their friends and neighbors for BOA and, of course, they told everyone why they left. Most went to work for one of the several other local banks here, and all their close friends and family moved their money with them.

When the last of those employees were gone everyone here started moving their accounts over to one of the still locally owned banks and in just a few years BOA didn't have hardly anyone left here to screw so they closed their doors and left town.

I will always admire my neighbors here for that. I knew people who let that bank abuse them for decades out in Los Angeles and I could never, not for the life of me, understand why.

ionised• 9 years ago

It's amazing how it seems the best way to be treated fairly by organisations that have clearly done you wrong is to out them on social media.

pcvarmint• 9 years ago

Looks like it comes from dispute between a Montclair Place shopping mall sushi restaurant and an investor:

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/8541827/Jeffrey_Lin...

Here is one of the defendants' info:

https://www.myrelatives.com/d/XIAO-LI/1353226340

Looks like he moved from Oregon to North Carolina in May 2014. Here was his old house:

https://www.redfin.com/OR/West-Linn/2245-River-Heights-Cir-9...

Here are the court documents:

https://document.li/r7zs

https://document.li/9xL1

https://document.li/2r4h

https://document.li/ThA6

https://document.li/lQoK

https://document.li/7G1S

https://document.li/Sg8p

https://document.li/0q4m

https://document.li/iYgL

https://document.li/ehHq

archon810• 9 years ago

What the heck happened to the site?

http://soraven.com/2017/04/05/how-bank-of-america-gave-away-... now shows some spam ads and nothing else.

safeandsound• 9 years ago

The link seems to be broken now. From Google Cache I was able to read the article and found out that BoA reached out to the author after the blog post got traction. I wish the post has remained to get more readership and serve as a reminder for BoA to act put together.

How Bank of America Gave Away My Money

Related Stories