Homeless alone

http://homelessalone.blogspot.com/

by wkoszek • 10 years ago

254 270 10 years ago

homelessalone.blogspot.com

lowglow12• 10 years ago

I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my burn rate, I lived as cheaply as possible. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut, and it looks and feels dehumanizing.

I wasn't completely broke but I couldn't keep affording rent as expensive as it was. I was able to shower at a gym, and worked out of Tech Shop on what I was trying to build. But it's hard -- like super hard to just be homeless. The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. I would often hear, "But you don't seem like the type to be homeless" and then they would slowly just distance themselves from talking to me. Super weird.

I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. Sleeping in a van sucks too. Street noises keep you up, cramped for space, etc. On the up side there is a contingent of tech people that are doing the same thing, so I had the pleasure of meeting some others like myself.

I've never taken up the opportunity of food, shelter, or clothing offered by the city, because frankly I'm doing this on my own accord, so I can't speak to how that part of the system helps people get back on their feet.

After this entire experience my heart breaks every time I see a fellow human having to resort to sleeping in the cold, wet, outdoors with no shelter and nothing but some cardboard and discarded newspapers to cover up with. I often wonder how close I could have come to being completely broken by this decision, and what coincidences led someone down this path. In the end it has helped me understand that we must all care more for one another, no matter what.

toomuchtodo17• 10 years ago

I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut

What would such a system look like?

EDIT: Totally serious question. To build something, you must first architect it.

lowglow12• 10 years ago

I'm not sure, I think about that a lot. I've noticed a lot of homeless do carry cell phones, so maybe more free chargers, free and ubiquitous wifi? But that's dumb tech me talking.

I think a lot of barriers just come from the social stigma of actually being homeless. So thinking reasonably, showers, laundry, snacks or meals? A place where one could feel human and a part of the naturally accepted society again.

k-mcgrady6• 10 years ago

Isn't one big issue for homeless people that they need an address when applying for jobs, bank accounts etc. and don't have one. Maybe a place to help them, not only find an apply to jobs, but to use as an address, shower before the interview etc.

aeorgnoieang4• 10 years ago

I'd start by legalizing every form of 'marginal' housing, e.g. boarding houses, micro-apartments.

I have no idea where to start if one accepts the current political, legal, and cultural environment as-is. Assuming you did just accept the status quo as a given, I can better appreciate why the idea of 'just giving homeless people housing' is so enticing. [And there is evidence that it works well. I'm skeptical about the long-run costs and skewed incentives, especially in places in which lots of people want to live.]

rubidium2• 10 years ago

There are three legs to that stool: stable living situation, stable job, stable transportation. Without all three you can't get better.

There's a guy I know who runs a business employing homeless. His rule is he never fires anyone. He understands that without a home/transportation, it can be impossible to make it to work. That gives them one stable leg to try and build the rest of their life from.

zyxley• 10 years ago

Step 1: Give homeless people a home.

As Utah found, just giving homeless people a home, without demanding any substantial money or qualification or whatever from them for it, reduced the number of long-time homeless by a huge percentage and in the process saved net money for the state because of reduced medical and policing costs.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...

Mz11• 10 years ago

You would need to provide services that were as middle class as possible and help them find real solutions to their specific problems.

I do blog a bit in hopes of helping other homeless people find viable solutions and bootstrap themselves. http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/

I have a second blog with very little content where I try to talk about What Helps The Homeless: http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/

A far, far better approach is to work on a) providing more senior and student housing -- aka affordable housing, but aimed at single people and childless couples and not marketed as "affordable" because that means "Built for poor people!" and that is always a terrible idea b) promoting walkable communities and c) helping people who can't fit a "regular" job to find a means to support themselves with some kind of paid work (freelance, part time, whatever).

Homeless people are just people. Once they get off the street, they are again simply referred to as people. You wind up homeless when your problems outrun your ability to cope. The difference between a homeless person and person in housing can be as little as one more problem or one less resource. Some particular thread snaps, it all comes unraveled. Trying to reverse that after the fact is a lot harder than trying to prevent it from happening to begin with (aka "A stitch in time saves nine").

But most people don't really want to hear that. Building more affordable housing (or otherwise trying to make society work better for ordinary people) doesn't feel heroic enough. It doesn't have the same rush of adrenaline of talking about getting people off the street after their lives have gone to hell.

blackguardx2• 10 years ago

Why was living in San Francisco so important to getting your prototype built? Friendships, community, family?

I wonder why more people don't choose to move to places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo where housing is dirt cheap. There aren't many jobs there, but if you are working for yourself it shouldn't really matter.

latortuga• 10 years ago

In terms of major cities, San Francisco is among the best choices in terms of year-round weather. Snow, subzero temperatures, and associated clothing needs would definitely be much more problematic in your suggested cities.

mjolk• 10 years ago

I would suggest it's so he doesn't move out of the potential area for users/testing/investor meetings/hiring, but if he's living out of a van, that's probably adding more challenges than it's resolving.

lowglow12• 10 years ago

Hm. I guess because everything I've built is out here. I know I have a TechShop membership that if my car breaks down, I have tools, I can prototype hardware there, etc. I have a good solid 6 years here in the city for friends and community that I could tap into if I needed to. It's just nice to see the people that I care and love for. Also for startups this seems to be the place to be.

astazangasta3• 10 years ago

Because intellectual community is extremely hard to get. Unless you're moving to Ithaca, it's hard to find a place that is full of interesting people and ideas. This pushes you in ways you wouldn't get in places like Buffalo and so on - the culture of a city like San Francisco or Boston is full of smart people with a certain background (i.e., people who are interested in tech) who can stimulate you. You're far more likely to overhear a conversation about Claude Shannon or minimum spanning trees in SF than you are in Buffalo.

theandrewbailey• 10 years ago

There's lots of tech jobs in those places, and places like those, even if it means throwing out your expectations and program in something like Java for a large corporation.

samstave3• 10 years ago

As an aside - I think we should start a ground-up movement to buy up as much of detroit as possible and create 'Silicon Detroit' as the land value is ridiculously low - and tech could move in where the biggest expense would be bringing in only strong connectivity.

Other initiatives like urban farming could be done as well. I think detroit is super fertile.

Imagine what just a billion dollar fund could do for tech in that region.

serge2k3• 10 years ago

Because the type of person who would move into a van because STARTUP LIFE! can't contemplate moving out of one of the most expensive cities in the country.

ap222132• 10 years ago

Just FYI, I know some great people in Cleveland. West Cleveland is a fine place to hang out and think in reclusion. I've camped out there several times, and if you wanted to stay longer, you could find a decent house to buy for under $20k. I'm sure one could find an extended-stay situation with room and board for $1 a day, or so. The city is relatively walkable. Food is cheap enough. Lots of shit to do.

I so want to do it again, but now I have kids.

k-mcgrady6• 10 years ago

I'm not trying to be rude when asking this but why would you choose to become homeless to prototype a business/product?? I've seen this come up several times on HN over the last few years and every time it blows my mind, especially when the person then goes on to talk about how difficult life is.

I'm guessing you're in tech as you're on HN - why not keep your day job and work on your business from 7pm-3am every night. Save some money while you do this and then leave your job when you can afford to?

It seems like a lot of tech folks have adopted the whole starving artist approach to starting a business when it is entirely unnecessary. I mean, even if you don't want to be an employee and want to focus on your product, move somewhere inexpensive, work freelance a few hours a day to support yourself. It just seems insane to me that anyone in this industry would choose to be homeless when they really don't have to.

If a lot of people are making this choice voluntarily I'd say there's a major problem in the industry and how people view the path to a successful business.

lowglow12• 10 years ago

For me I've noticed a huge difference in creativity and authenticity in my products when I've devoted 100% of myself to it.

There is a major problem in the industry. There is no one path to a successful business.

I find my time is more valuable than my comfort. To each their own.

bjkahn2• 10 years ago

How are you going to sustain that schedule? I could do that perhaps for a week, not longer.

homero4• 10 years ago

Because it drives you. You must succeed. I'm preparing to do this myself. In Russia too. Succeed or die by ice, wild dogs and military police. This is authentic.

Homeless in San Francisco hanging by coffee shops, getting change is like a mansion. In Russia, homeless people disappear. This is why my mvp will be superb.

downandout• 10 years ago

Many people believe in the mistaken "no pain, no gain" philosophy. People seem to believe that somehow the universe will recognize their sacrifice and reward them accordingly. John Oliver did an excellent piece on a new crop of so-called "seed faith" televangelists that have popped up to fleece poor people that believe in this philosophy [1].

The reality, of course, is the opposite. The most successful people I have known have all started their businesses while their lives were relatively stable. That doesn't mean they started off rich, but it does mean they weren't spending all of their time trying to figure out where they were going to sleep or where their next meal was coming from. These days, it is wholly unnecessary to quit your job or move to SV to make a startup happen, and doing so is counterproductive in almost all cases.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg&t=4m31s

tryitnow2• 10 years ago

Work on your business from 7pm to 3am every night? Let's say you work 9am to 6pm. Let's assume you have to get up at 8am, that gives you, very optimistically, 5 hours of sleep. Some people can survive on that. Even more people think they can survive on that and just end up becoming crazy people who nobody wants to be around. The vast majority of are simply not physically equipped to do that.

lexhaynes2• 10 years ago

My father has been homeless at times. I'm not sure why anyone would CHOOSE that path. Having a home, even if that means a bed in a shared room, or a small sublet in an apartment, is pretty crucial to one's sense of well-being and safety.

It's hard for me to understand how someone can get productive work done when they don't have a comfortable, safe place to rest their mind for a few hours.

LeifCarrotson• 10 years ago

Because working a day job takes approximately 100% of the work capacity (not to mention overall time) most people have available?

Most people don't function on 3 hours of sleep, for one thing. And if 5-7 PM is your between-jobs time, that's all you have to do errands and chores.

Personally, I have a little capacity (2 hours, maybe?) left over before burn-out starts to set in, and I am using it to fix up my house. I could cut that out and live in what I have, but there's no way I have 8 hours available.

PavlovsCat• 10 years ago

For me, the heart of the comment is this

The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond [..] I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. [..] After this entire experience my heart breaks every time I see a fellow human having to resort to sleeping in the cold, wet, outdoors with no shelter and nothing but some cardboard and discarded newspapers to cover up with. [.. ] In the end it has helped me understand that we must all care more for one another, no matter what.

which you might also call an attempt to give a small voice to the voiceless.

How many comments are essentially glossing over that, the ratio between posts responding to the gist of this comment to those that don't, is incredible, and to describe the main point you're all mostly ignoring as

especially when the person then goes on to talk about how difficult life is.

is beyond tone deaf. The comment is not at all about life being oh so hard for OP, ultimately. It's not about "the industry" either, nor is the original article.

The things described in this comment, the article, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11646078 ought to be enough to give a person PTSD after a while. Part of that is simply caused by social stigma, which is something everybody is complicit in and nobody can directly be blamed for. And when cops have power trips and abuse the defenseless -- not saying they do that all the time, but when they do -- any remotely decent society would come down on them like furies. Not just some of them, every last person. None such societies exist as of now, instead we numb ourselves to being numb to it, and that is the major problem I see. "The industry" is but a speck of dust in that river, and the hellish ocean it leads to.

fencepost• 10 years ago

I know of at least one person (Lenny Flank [1]) who's living in a covertly converted cargo van possibly for some financial reasons but also to be able to travel cheaply and see the USA. He's writing mostly about places he stays, but there are also some articles about how he's doing it, the van and its conversions, etc.

Lenny's been crossposting to Daily Kos as well as on his site, and "What's it All Cost?" [2] has a list of links to all the relevant articles there. This is a better place to go if you're just wanting the meat of it.

I also know of at least one other person who's more legitimately "homeless" rather than "camping," she's been posting about her experiences with PADS (homeless assistance group, runs shelters particularly during the colder months) and some job search related items, also on Daily Kos [3].

TL;DR Lenny bought a used windowless extended cargo van with a security grid across the front of the back compartment (which can be covered to block light from inside at night). He mounted a decent-sized solar panel on the roof, has a battery setup inside that he can use for lighting, a fan, and recharging his laptop and other devices. He added a small sink, etc. and sleeps in the van overnight while taking public transit to various sights in each area he stops in. He works via laptop from various public libraries, coffee shops, and restaurant wifi.

[1] https://lennyflank.wordpress.com/ [2] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/03/09/1420740/-Living-in-... [3] http://www.dailykos.com/user/sheddhead

padmanabhan013• 10 years ago

I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my burn rate, I lived as cheaply as possible. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut, and it looks and feels dehumanizing.

I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone who has enough skills to "build things" has enough skills to get an average software job. So, just curious, did you choose to build things and be homeless instead of getting a mundane software job and not be homeless?

lowglow12• 10 years ago

Correct. I had decided what I wanted to do with the time I have.

Swizec• 10 years ago

The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond.

That's why you call yourself a digital nomad. Instead of people distancing themselves, you get people asking "Wooow how do you do that? I would love to do that? What's it like?".

As a homeless person with a van, you probably have a more permanent base than most digital nomads. Or at least more than what I did when I was nomading more properly. (and yes, I do miss it)

return0• 10 years ago

I've never taken up the opportunity of food, shelter, or clothing offered by the city, because frankly I'm doing this on my own accord, so I can't speak to how that part of the system helps people get back on their feet.

I think you don't qualify as a homeless. You 're living in a van. There's a reason people prefer homes to a van. I can't fathom what is so pressing that makes you sleep in a van instead of moving to a much cheaper area.

Mz11• 10 years ago

I have never heard of a homeless services center that would not count sleeping in a van as homeless.

Razengan• 10 years ago

I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. Sleeping in a van sucks too. Street noises keep you up, cramped for space, etc

Would moving into the woods and "living off the land" have been an option? Is this even legally possible anymore in the United States?

* Assuming you had solar-generated electricity and internet access.

chiph2• 10 years ago

You would need to own the land, or arrange a lease with the owner. Otherwise you're trespassing and that can result in arrest or being shot. I'm not saying that you can't do this (there are people living in remote portions of national parks), but there can be severe downsides. Like ending up like Christopher McCandless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless

dceddia• 10 years ago

You seem open to questions so I'll ask :) I've always wondered -- if you're living in a van, and you don't like where you are (food is expensive, winter is coming, etc), why not just drive somewhere else?

I don't even mean across the country. I mean just 4 hours north or south or east. There are cheaper places to be in California than SF, aren't there? It seems you could spend the year driving up and down the coast as cost/weather permits. And I don't mean daily. The fuel costs would get prohibitive at some point...

lowglow12• 10 years ago

I did. I worked in Redwood City, slept in Palo Alto (because it's legal to sleep in your car there). I tried to stay within the confines of the law as much as possible because I didn't need the extra hassle.

whatever_dude• 10 years ago

Thanks for sharing. Great food for thought.

atarian• 10 years ago

I've been seriously considering living out of a van with basic amenities like a propane stove and solar. I was pretty much set on doing this 100%, but one of my close friends talked me down to like 90%. Do you feel the impact to sleep/well-being is worth the freedom you get to work on your prototype?

wutbrodo3• 10 years ago

In case you're someone who usually sleeps pretty well, I would caution against talking poor quality of sleep too lightly. Forget the impact to your health, it can fuck up pretty much everything about your life, including your productivity (partly negating one of the reasons you'd be doing it in the first place).

stcredzero2• 10 years ago

I've been in such a position following an abusive employment/housing situation. What you say completely rings true. I think there's a partially neurologically wired category of "other" in our brains that is meant to make us super cautious of rootless individuals. Even in our nomadic hunter-gatherer days, we had good reason to be suspect of individuals who didn't have group membership. (Effectively a "home.")

kaeluka2• 10 years ago

You won't slap me in the face because you've got something to lose. A house, family, job, ..

Someone homeless hasn't!

edit: typo corrected!

jonnathanson• 10 years ago

That, and I think a lot of it is also pattern matching. When we hear that someone is homeless, we compare that person to the mental image we have of the homeless people we've encountered on the streets.

One of the great tragedies of our society is that we've allowed our mentally ill to slip through the cracks. Untreated schizophrenics and PTSD-suffering Vietnam veterans may or may not make up a significant percentage of the homeless we see -- but they're certainly the most memorable. They stand out. They ingrain, in passersby, a mental map of homeless people as "crazy," or "violent," or "dangerous." And so we start to believe that homeless people are broken somehow. Many people go a step further; they start to regard the homeless as less than human.

These pattern matches are powerful blocks on empathy for many, many people.

scythe• 10 years ago

You could, at least, rent a place somewhere very cheap (Lodi?) and visit it only occasionally, while living out of your car in the Bay Area.

It might ultimately be more sustainable, especially if you're open to having a "roommate" or two (who probably wouldn't mind you being gone a lot!). I spent a year paying $233/month for an attic room in Atlanta (and I lived there), so the opportunities exist.

e404• 10 years ago

A cautionary tale of what this can lead to:

My brother's startup wasn't bring in much money and there was always the near promise it would. He went through all his savings and retirement funds and went close to $100k into CC debt. This was a swing of +$1m to -$70k. Yes, he had a problem (unacknowledged, btw) that was more dire than yours. Just be aware that this stuff can get out of control, if you let it.

After getting to the -$70k state, he asked me and my parents for money to continue. We all refused because we knew that our money would be like the $1m+ he had already gone through. We told him to get a job. He refused. He couch surfed for a while. After 6+ months doing that he realized, because his family had abandoned him, he would have to get a job. He did ($155k/yr). He started a month ago. He's angry at the family and won't talk with us now. Ironically, he admitted that he wouldn't have the job now, which he needs, if we had given him money last year. However, that doesn't matter. He still maintains he did the right thing and we didn't support him.

It's been a sad year for my parents and me. Actually, sad few years, since we all saw this coming (and tried to prevent it, but he only got angry at us for being "negative").

It was personally hard for me to let him go right to the brink of being on the street. I did it because giving him money would have drained my resources, and for no reason. His reality distortion field was so strong, he would not listen to anyone.

simonebrunozzi• 10 years ago

Sorry to hear this. I love my Brother to death, and I can't imagine going through what you went through with yours.

I hope things will get better.

everlost• 10 years ago

Just out of curiosity, what was the idea behind his startup? I've been avoiding getting a job along the same lines, but can never imagine going into 100k debt for a startup obsession.

tryitnow2• 10 years ago

Yikes. I hope the wounds heal over time. What you all did sounds right. It seems like your brother had a problem and giving him more money would have exacerbated it.

Hang in there, I'm sorry you all had to go through this.

chinathrow3• 10 years ago

The AirBnB founders also maxed out multiple credit cards.

https://medium.com/cs183c-blitzscaling-class-collection/scal...

"Joe and I both had ~$30K in credit card debt and this is what we were using to fund the company."

sedachv2• 10 years ago

This was a swing of +$1m to -$70k.

The crazy thing is that at a 3% withdrawal rate $1m would have been $30k a year for personal expenses for the rest of your brother's life.

Mz11• 10 years ago

I am on the street for health reasons, not to start a business (and getting pretty grumpy about it), but if you find it that hard cope, you might want to check out my blog: http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/

People do realize I am homeless if they see me often enough, but they don't realize it upon meeting me the first time. I am less open about it than I used to be, because fuck prejudice and what judgey, uncampassionate, unhelpful assholes the vast majority of people are.

Best of luck.

chinathrow3• 10 years ago

Thanks for your link, checking it out now.

How do you get by these days? How can we help?

openasocket• 10 years ago

I don't mean to pry, but what do you mean by "on the street for health reasons"? I'm trying to think of a medical condition that could be helped by being homeless, and am drawing a blank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

wutbrodo3• 10 years ago

I am less open about it than I used to be, because fuck prejudice and what judgey, uncampassionate, unhelpful assholes the vast majority of people are.

I grew up in a nice part of la so I didn't really have any exposure to homeless people until I moved to the bay almost a decade ago. One thing that shocked me then and still really bothers me is how many of my friends (even the ones that I know to be decent, considerate people) completely ignore the existence of anyone who looks or smells or seems "weird". This is presumably under the assumption that anyone who looks like that is probably just asking you for money.

I remember sitting at a SJ light rail station and having a guy in a parka (it was 90+ deg out) come up to us and mumble something while we were sitting at the platform. My friend pointedly refused to make eye contact and pretended he didn't exist. When I asked the guy to repeat what he said, it turns out he was asking for directions....

I'm not saying that everyone needs to empty out their wallet to every person on the sidewalk, and maybe 90% of the time this heuristic is successful (ie they are asking for money), but it seems so shitty to me to just size someone up like that and decide that whatever they're saying to you, you can ignore it. I can guarantee you that none of those friends would ignore a well dressed stranger addressing them on the street.

dzmien• 10 years ago

Being homeless with a vehicle to live in is nothing like being homeless without one. I really don't even think it is the same thing. I've been homeless on a number of occasions (related to addiction, I am now in recovery), and I have done it with and without a vehicle.

There is absolutely no comparison between having to sleep on the street and having a vehicle to sleep in, especially during the fall/winter in seasonal areas. I would absolutely live in a converted van if it meant saving money. Sadly, I don't have a van to convert ;-)

louprado• 10 years ago

It's the quality of sleep that is the biggest concern. Sleeping poorly affects your productivity, creativity, and your health. The social isolation is also bad for all the above since it will likely lead to depression.

Seriously, once I rented someone's large closet in Phoenix for $100 a month when I needed to save money. I showered in the gym and stayed in my office all day. Even in the most expensive cities someone will take a "ghost roommate" for $500 a month; pennies compared to cost of a physical/mental health related disorder.

lighttower2• 10 years ago

Yours, sir, is one of the most human statements I've read in recent years.

LulzSect• 10 years ago

http://i.imgur.com/WHWB4Kkh.jpg

Minutes ago

thesimon4• 10 years ago

Wikipedia says you only get unemployment benefits for 6 months in the US, is that correct? Seems quite harsh.

toomuchtodo17• 10 years ago

Its dependent on each state, but that's close enough to average, yes.

Tharkun• 10 years ago

What happens after that?

thesimon4• 10 years ago

Cheers. Probably makes sense considering the "freedom" mentality in the US where everyone has to work for himself compared to the welfare state mentality in Europe.

Actually makes me feel a bit good for paying my taxes :)

ck24• 10 years ago

And in the USA you might not get any benefits at all, depends how long you worked, if you previously got benefits and how you lost the job (fired vs let go vs quit, etc)

chefkoch• 10 years ago

How is it that people don't starve, especially the ones with mental health problems? Or does it happen and just is so accepted it is not worth reporting?

ryanSrich• 10 years ago

Depends on a bunch of factors. I've seen people who have reapplied and received it for years. I think the cutoff is 2 years under any circumstances. You have to prove that you're actually looking for a job to continue extending.

tedmiston2• 10 years ago

Is it more generous outside of the U.S.?

ck24• 10 years ago

When I was homeless and living out of my old car, my biggest problem was police. Constantly hassling me. I have no idea how they would always find me, I think people were calling in me sleeping in my car (this was before smartphones).

They would always insist on searching the car for drugs and I basically had to give in. Not that I ever had any but they would make a mess since all my possessions were in the car and they could care less about tossing everything.

And yes, as many people say, getting out of the rut of being homeless is the hardest thing, it starts to completely change the way you think and everything becomes day-to-day survival.

windowshopping• 10 years ago

I find this pretty fascinating. Firstly because I'm overwhelmed with sympathy for this guy, and I stopped to ask why. I live in Chicago and I see the homeless every day, and I know it's a problem and I wish I could fix it but I don't know how, and giving a dollar to every person I pass would actually start to have a hefty toll ($20+/day or more, easily.) So since moving to the city I made it a blanket rule not to give hand-outs in that form.

But because this guy keeps a blog, because he is articulate and just sounds like another guy, easily could be me, because he still has his voice, I'm almost tempted to send him a couple hundred dollars over paypal. I haven't yet, but the temptation is there. Just because I can hear his story instead of just see him sitting on a sidewalk. It makes it so much harder to walk by.

I do wish I knew more about how it happened. I always wonder that. I usually think there must have been some bad choices made along the way. Not that anyone's free of bad choices. But, why did he instantly become homeless after his mother sold the house? Why didn't he have any savings at that age? Why didn't he have any old friends who would take him in to help him out? I know not everyone is so fortunate as to have those things, of course, but still I wonder how it happens.

telesilla• 10 years ago

Having a voice is what makes the author distinct in these kinds of stories - he can speak and therefore act for himself. Thus we believe that any charity provided would have result. A good concept for this is "subaltern" which refers to being "rendered without agency by social status". The author is not subaltern and therefore we have hope for him, he is not completely outside the social system we inhabit ourselves. So you could send him $100 and realistically have the expectation that this will have value, as opposed to giving $100 to a man on the street and having the expectation that it will only be a temporary reprieve, or even worsen the situation through short-term spending choices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaltern_(postcolonialism)

mgkimsal2• 10 years ago

I don't know Neil well, but he did speak twice at my conference several years ago (2010 and 2012). In 2012, he was walking with a cane, and had had a stroke between those two times I met him. Still in good spirits, but was definitely a little physically slower.

I'm pretty sure there's more to the back story that led up to this, and I've encouraged him to write more about this at some point when he's more stable. If I were to guess, based on the few points he's made in writing, there's some family rift going on, and I might also presume that he may have been paying for things for his mother that might have otherwise gone in to savings.

He's been through a divorce, which can certainly have a financial toll on anyone, and I think it was a bit later in life, which may be harder to recover from.

A late divorce, some health problems, trying to support a family member - all of that may quickly deplete someone's funds.

As to the homeless part, I think there's a certain pride involved, and asking for help may be embarrassing, especially to have to involve friends. It may be that many of his local friends would be tied to his mother/family, and may not be as supportive as one might hope.

I sent money to paypal, but it's frozen, and I'm wondering if I can reverse it and senf via GFM and he'll get access faster. Hrmmm....

capote4• 10 years ago

I always have to wonder why people don't work at least minimum wage jobs, to solve the base problems like hunger.

I apologize if I'm missing something or if I seem really ignorant. Actually, I realize I am totally ignorant in this respect. I've never worked a job outside of programming, so I don't know—is it very difficult for some people to get 'normal' jobs? Is it mostly people with some kind of issue or disability that affects their ability to get a job who wind up like this? Are there not as many minimum-wage, or non-professional (or something) jobs out there as I think there are?

I realize once you get to a certain level it becomes really tough to recover, but when you're on your way, and savings are going, shouldn't you be looking around for any way to earn some cash?

IkmoIkmo• 10 years ago

Well a big part of homelessness is substance abuse and mental issues.

I know a whole bunch of people who've been homeless, sometimes for up to a year sleeping on the streets. But they'd eventually find their way and move on. In the developed world, there's so many programmes. They're not fun, don't get me wrong. For example you can get a bed, a meal and a shower, but you have curfew at 8pm to reserve a spot and you have to spend the night with a bunch of strangers, not all of whom you'd want to hang out with, and then you get thrown out at 8 in the morning. None of that is enjoyable, but you can do it. Then you can apply for a home, you can apply for a free public transport pass, and you can pretty easily get minimum wage jobs. None of those are great, but e.g. in the Netherlands minimum wage is about $1700, and you get 1 month of mandatory, by law, of holidays per year working full-time, in which you get your salary. This is liveable for a person without children, and combined with all the different programs it's impossible to not live a decent life.

But that's for an ordinary person. If you have a gambling addiction, a substance addiction or a mental issue, none of that matters. You could squander a $10k salary, or have days when you're too scared to go shopping for groceries.

Short-term homelessness is very solvable, I've got friends who've gone through it. Long-term usually is much tricker because you're not dealing with a 'normal' rational human being. These people simply need help, lots of it. It's not a matter of giving a person a job, clothing, a home, because they can't function, none of that helps. They need professional help, and the resources for that aren't being spent. Instead resources are largely spent on keeping people alive.

Of course there are tons of exceptions. I've got a family member for example who was homeless and was really stuck due to a lack of programs available to get him back on his feet. In the end he was 'saved' by the grace of a total stranger, given a place to sleep, food, shower etc and support in becoming self-sufficient. He was mentally fine, educated etc, but ran into one of those 1 in a million odds that destroy your life. And the stranger helped him out. But he's very much the exception. Most are like another family member I had who simply had substance abuse issues. We took him in over and over, got him totally setup after 1-2 years of homelessness. And he'd be right there with us looking handsome and sharp and jolly, nicely clothed and cleaned up, and he'd be sharp as a knife talking about politics. Everyday we'd give him a few bucks for some cigs and a newspaper and stuff, and have him eat all his meals with us and sleep with us. And then 3 weeks later he'd be gone, and we'd spent months on the streets just walking around asking people if they'd seen him. Finally 1-2 years later we'd find him and take him in again and it was the same story, every 1-2 years it'd repeat. But he just couldn't live that life and always fled. In the end he'd be gone again and we went looking once more, but this time he died on the streets, we don't know how. There's nothing you can do for him but get him professional help to deal with substance/mental health issues. I suspect most long-term homelessness is like that.

It's always so hard for me to decide which it is... I've experienced both, people who you simply can't help, but only professionals can, and people who you can totally lift up and get back on their feet with a little bit of trust and resources.

edpichler• 10 years ago

You said everything.

chinathrow3• 10 years ago

There is a GoFundMe page set-up for this guy - no idea how legit it is. Can anyone confirm?

https://www.gofundme.com/NeilTortorella

Edit: He's also on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ntortorella

mgkimsal2• 10 years ago

It's legit. They're working with Neil to get some GFM funds released ASAP. He had a paypal set up , and I donated, but Paypal has frozen his funds for 30 days (nice).

lasermike0262• 10 years ago

Enough already. This society can provide Walden (by Henry David Thoreau) sized accommodations for all that need it. There is no reason for anyone to be homeless.

People need work and healthcare. These are rights not a privileges.

T2_t22• 10 years ago

Except... some people choose to be homeless. There are two in this very thread (the first comment, and here: sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com). It's unpleasant to say, but it's true.

To achieve a goal of 100% home-d, we'd need some REALLY draconian measures, e.g. forcing people into homes they don't want and forcing people to take medication against their will. I, personally, am not for measures like that, for reasons this blog post lays out well: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-see...

However, the goal to reduce homelessness to 0% for the vast majority in the set of people who WANT a home is one I can support - even better if that desire extends beyond white countries.

lasermike0262• 10 years ago

We can start by providing homes and medicine to people who need and want homes. We'll work on the hard cases later.

joeevans1000• 10 years ago

It's a bit stunning to some of the philosophical waxing in here, ruminations and curiosity about what bad choices were made. The guy had a stroke, which he states. It's so stunning that this isn't enough explanation for some, who wonder if he didn't save enough. Our culture is so far gone that a stroke isn't enough explanation for homelessness. To hell with needing reasons... he shouldn't have to provide them. I think the urge for reasons are just ways to determine in our minds we couldn't one day be in his shoes and/or remove the idea that perhaps we should help.

jacalata2• 10 years ago

I think a better sign of being "so far gone" is when you find it totally blasé that a stroke can lead to homelessness.

nojvek• 10 years ago

This. Even though my employer provides descent insurance I still end up paying quite a bit more out of pocket then I did in Australia or Canada.

Having lived in many cities around the world, I can say if you're poor in the US, there aren't many options to get out of it. It could be said for many countries but US is the worlds largest economy. It's a solvable problem.

It's heart breaking to hear stories of people choosing to die than go to the hospital because the bills will kill them.

smilingtom• 10 years ago

People actually fall for this? He made a long, sob-story blog post about how miserable he was being homeless and how he wishes he had more money so he could afford more nutritious food.

And then people sent this guy over $40k? For no reason?

I need to get into the sob-story business.

ilyaeck• 10 years ago

It's great that so many people are driven to help this guy: donate money, etc. But stories like this can/should to be leveraged to raise awareness and engage the society to solve this problem. In a country that prides itself on abundance and opportunities, homelessness is a disgrace to us all.

Startup folks - looking for a real problem to solve? How about a system to help pool people like this out of misery?

wkoszek• 10 years ago

I appreciate everyone taking the time to read this post.

peter303• 10 years ago

There a gradation between intermittent homelessness and chronic homelessness. Intermittent is not that rare - I even experienced a bit of that my self at one time. Chronic may be due to more deep seated issues and hard to get out of. It sounds like you have the drive to eventually escape it.

known• 10 years ago

This is why I unconditionally support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_around_the_world

Homeless alone

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