Driving Is Losing Its Allure for More Americans

http://www.wsj.com/articles/driving-losing-its-allure-for-more-americans-1453285801

by bootload • 10 years ago

120 187 10 years ago

wsj.com

ronnier• 10 years ago

Why I don't like driving:

1) We are preyed on by police as a source of revenue via traffic tickets.

2) Parking is increasingly becoming more and more difficult.

FanaHOVA• 10 years ago

Agree. I feel like the cost of Ubers need to go down a bit further to make cars go for good. Stuff like grocery shopping, quick errands, etc would add up quickly with $10 for each trip (considering the minimum $5 fare, let alone higher costs)

asabjorn• 10 years ago

If you consider the cost of a car loan, insurance, gas and car maintenance your car might not look as cheap anymore.

As a personal anecdote I now only drive once every two weeks here in SF, mostly for weekend trips, and my car is such an expensive luxury that if I didn't already own it from the days I drove more I would probably just always zipcar or use Uber.

Animats2• 10 years ago

Yes, if only serfs weren't so expensive.

GFK_of_xmaspast2• 10 years ago

Over the last 20 years I've driven about 300k miles and have gotten precisely 1 (one) ticket, which I totally deserved.

tdfx2• 10 years ago

If you're insinuating that following the speed limit and maintaining your vehicle are enough to prevent police harassment, I've got some reading material for you.

commandar• 10 years ago

Tickets aren't a huge concern for me living in a state that has fairly strong anti-speedtrapping laws, but the absolute thing that has pushed me to driving less on a daily basis are other drivers.

I drive a low slung sports car, so it's clearly not the act of driving itself that I hate: it's dealing with nearly being hit by inattentive drivers that are more focused on their cell phones than the road on a regular basis. It's people riding at 30 MPH the entire length of an onramp and then being surprised they can't merge with traffic traveling at 70+. It's the fact that the two mile commute to my office that takes five minutes most hours of the day will turn into a fifteen to twenty minute commute at peak hours.

It's a lot of stress and unnecessary risk when there are better things I could be doing with my time.

I love driving when it's hopping in the car and going to carve up some mountain back roads. I loathe it when it's standing between me and just getting daily living done.

akgerber3• 10 years ago

Parking is massively subsidized in the United States (read 750 pages about it! http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/1...) and drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws (I've never gotten a ticket in my 12 years of licensure).

csours• 10 years ago

drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws

This is hyperbole at best. Speed traps are real. Driving while black is real in many places

If you said: Most tickets are issued to drivers that habitually break laws, that would be defensible.

omegaham4• 10 years ago

I've gotten one. One was enough. At this point, I accelerate up to the speed limit and stick the car into cruise control unless forced to change my speed. Haven't gotten a ticket since.

kirklove• 10 years ago

Can understand this sentiment in younger people. As someone in his mid-40s, even living in New York City, I just picked up a car (after 8 years of not having one) and have been enjoying driving it so much. It's just something I grew up with and love to do as an activity.

trentmb• 10 years ago

I suppose it depends on the driving.

Earlier this morning I was cruising some empty county roads, windows down enjoying the (relatively) warm weather and sunshine, blasting some Chris Thile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM.

If I was stuck in the stop & go city traffic where having my windows down meant getting a face full of exhaust, I'd hate it to.

robertcorey• 10 years ago

This article was really eye opening for me http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-c... . I just started my first post college job and I made sure to move within biking distance of my work.

jacquesm2• 10 years ago

That blog has a ton of good stuff on it, even if plenty of it will sound strange to new readers at first. I'm not on board with some of his psychological trickery (namecalling people that don't follow his belief system for instance) but that doesn't change the fact that if you're young and making good money that this blog pretty much guarantees you're going to be set by the time you reach your forties if not sooner.

Highly recommended.

miseg2• 10 years ago

Jacques, what's your impression of where he puts his wealth (stock exchange).

I'm in Ireland, and ETF index fund gains are taxed at ~40% each seven years, outside of your retirement fund. It seems like other avenues are more viable here in Ireland for wealth building before your retirement years, like running a business or maybe property ownership.

human_breather• 10 years ago

Driving is amazing. I can travel further faster, making it easier to see friends. I can travel with more stuff making grocery shopping faster and easier. I can store things in my car which saves me worry and time. Driving can even be fun! I'd hate driving if I had to live in the middle of a dense city though.

Biking and walking are also amazing. It's healthy, and can be quite social. I can walk without having to worry about finding parking. I don't need to worry about keys, license, etc. It's simply impossible to walk/bike everywhere though in the majority of the country.

simplyinfinity2• 10 years ago

If you live in a city where everything you need is 1-2 blocks away and you have good public transport, Why would you need a car that sits idle 95% of the time? Just because you don't have to carry a bag ?

reasonality• 10 years ago

If you live in a city, then you have far bigger problems. It's no way to live.

xrcltr• 10 years ago

It is so much nicer living outside a city compared to living in one.

Grishnakh6• 10 years ago

Because very, very few cities in the US have "good public transport", and even then they only have it in certain small areas. In NYC, public transit is pretty decent in Manhattan, and a part of Brooklyn, and that's it. Everywhere else it sucks: Bronx, Queens, Staten Island, the rest of Brooklyn, and everything on the NJ side (Jersey City, Newark, etc.).

What we need to do is build SkyTran.

agumonkey5• 10 years ago

Walking is amazingly free of worries. I thought biking (in urban areas) would be the same but at higher speed, it's not. When you get above 25 you become dangerous and cannot be mindless. Also securing a bike is nearly impossible unless in protected parking lots or private homes. (I've read many reports of robbers "hacking" into buildings in case some people left their bikes unlocked or with subpar safety mechanism).

Maybe with a cheap bike tracker in the frame...

chipsy• 10 years ago

Folding kick scooters are a good compromise for urban commutes. You can take a fall on them if you push hard or take a steep slope, but they generally aren't going to go above 15 mph, so it's more like running everywhere and you can walk in everywhere carrying it.

ArnoldP• 10 years ago

Having biked in urban environments for quite some time, I've found the solution is is to have a crappy bike and a bigger lock than the next bike over. Note that a crappy bike doesn't have to be a bad bike, just not something flashy.

hanniabu• 10 years ago

I love driving, even when there's traffic. I have XM radio and this is really my only/easiest way of discovering new music so I see longer rides as a benefit. Get to just relax, listen to good tunes, and get some thoughts straight.

However, I can see driving as being an inconvenience to many due to things such as ticketing/insurance, parking issues, traffic for those that don't allot themselves enough time to commute, car maintenance, and the fact that our infrastructure is crumbling and nobody really enjoys diving into a pothole at 30+ mph. I know I'm associating owning a car with the enjoyment of driving a car, but I do believe they go hand in hand for many.

simplyinfinity2• 10 years ago

The next 20 years will be quite interesting to say the least. Electric cars + autonomous Cars + Uber = no need for people to own cars but pay a small fee. People will start to reason about this ... "Why own a car that does nothing all day why i can just lease one"

I think things will go one of 2 ways:

1) people will lease their cars to other while they don't need them while at work and at home at night

2) people will lease cars from uber/tesla/apple/google..whoever

And we will use those services for a lot less than what we are currently paying for a cab, and certainly a lot less than what would be the cost of owning the car.

guelo• 10 years ago

Not sure why this glorious future isn't happening today with microrentals startups like zipcar, peer to peer rentals like getaround/relayrides, ride hailing like uber/lyft, old-school car rental companies, and probably a bunch other business models I don't know about.

dalke5• 10 years ago

1) Is there really a demand to lease out cars during the off hours? With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage?

Or that the car is sufficiently maintained, the spare tire has air, etc.?

2) Will I be able to rent the car with baby seats (three seats please, for the triplets), ski racks, bike racks, etc. and how much extra will that cost? Will I have to load/unload the diapers, gym equipment, toolbox, sand for extra traction, first aid kit, etc. after each trip?

And yes, I have kept sand in the back of my car, and used it during icy conditions to get out of a friend's driveway.

smileysteve• 10 years ago

With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage?

With Zipcar, they clean it about once a week, the user is responsible for reporting any damage, dirt, low fuel, etc when they pick up the car (not dissimilar from renting a car).

mrtron2• 10 years ago

Sounds like you are in the late majority.

http://a5.files.readwrite.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr...

Maintenance becomes easier, not harder, with a car sharing service. You would have winter tires instead of worrying about having some sand in your trunk. Also likely would have 4WD, with electric it works quite well. Of course you would have a first aid kit, toolkbox, spare tire, etc. Diapers and baby seats are a hassle for about 5 years per adult, so I am sure there would be a solution available.

HappyTypist2• 10 years ago

I think leasing will be more suited for those who infrequently need cars (e.g. If you live in a major city and bike, BART, etc) to work.

Grishnakh6• 10 years ago

You don't need sand for traction in any decent modern vehicle. They invented this thing called "front-wheel drive" decades ago. Even better, now they have traction control in all cars, and some cars have all-wheel drive.

Only RWD pickup trucks benefit from that strategy, and there's never any reason you should be renting one of those unless you have 1000 lbs of stuff to haul.

EwanG• 10 years ago

Even the manufacturers get this, which is where GM's Maven service is pointing to where the "casual" driver will probably end up. Assuming when they roll to SA they put pick up/drop offs in reasonable locations I can do my daily commute for half of what it costs me right now with having a car.

jmadsen• 10 years ago

Been seeing this mentioned in connection with the reasons why self-driving cars & cars that are essentially 24/7 robot taxis will be a genuine thing.

Can't find the article I read recently on all this, sadly...

amelius• 10 years ago

The next 20 years will be quite interesting to say the least. Electric cars + autonomous Cars + Uber = no need for people to own cars but pay a small fee.

Yes, and Apple, with its Apple car, will have totally mis-predicted the market.

mc32• 10 years ago

Driving was symbolic of freedom, getting away from supervision, so much that it became a rite of passage and every teenager wanted to be able to take a date out in a car. There were open roads, vast spaces to see, many low tech things to discover and to show someone else.

Now with traffic congestion in addition to rising costs of ownership, insurance, etc. and many other options for taking dates out, access to cars isn't vital, what's more, it's no longer symbolic of freedom but rather symbolic of the establishment, consumerism, suburbia and oil, things out of vogue. And now there are other more modern avenues for exploration, entertainment and finding kindred spirits.

To add one more thing, now access to cars does not require ownership. You have car-sharing services [citycarshare, zipcar] and you have ride-sharing platforms which make access to vehicles less of a binary choice of ownership/no ownership.

white-flame• 10 years ago

Not having a car used to mean you couldn't see your friends, and couldn't do the things you wanted to when you wanted to. Finally getting a car basically opened up life.*

Now with the internet in your pocket, you can socialize and experience new things at your convenience from wherever.

(* = USA-centric. The country is huge and tends not to have good public transport except a few of the densest urban pockets. Even our big cities are massively inconvenient without a vehicle of your own.)

HappyTypist2• 10 years ago

The internet really isn't life. I think a combination of increased car ownership costs, car-sharing services, increased population living in denser areas, and ridesharing has helped.

agumonkey5• 10 years ago

It's still a thing these days. For years I was pressured into getting a driving permit but hated the roads so delayed it. Just got it, it was exciting for a month (mastering the physics of the vehicle mostly), now I'm free to .. get food at the mall [2]. I tell this to people, and they're "NOoooo you're independent, you can do anything" with shiny eyes.

[1] angry drivers, jam, not green, enjoyed walking, running, biking..

[2] also it's incredibly stressful to me. I'm constantly checking everything (and that doesn't even save from bumping into cars because I can't scan 360deg in parallel).

Spooky234• 10 years ago

Then take a few days off and go do something!

Draw a 500 mile circle around your current location. You can travel there and back in a day of drive time and less than $100.

Swizec• 10 years ago

also it's incredibly stressful to me. I'm constantly checking everything (and that doesn't even save from bumping into cars because I can't scan 360deg in parallel).

This goes away after a while. Studies have shown that new drivers try to focus on everything, while experienced drivers only focus on key points.

As a result, experienced drivers get in less accidents.

Basically you get a sixth sense for driving. But you need a big corpus of data for that.

johnpowell• 10 years ago

Around 2008 my sister got her 15 year old son a iPhone. Texting was such a problem with him that he was presented with a choice. Get a license and a car and give up his phone or keep the phone and keep using his bus pass. He went with the bus pass and only got his license last year and that was only because he wanted a motorcycle.

Animats2• 10 years ago

"Peak driving" was back in 2004.[1]

[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-th...

“The broad acre city, where every family will have at least an acre of land, is the inevitable municipality of the future . . . We live now in cities of the past, slaves of the machine and of traditional building. We cannot solve our living and transportation problems by burrowing under or climbing over, and why should we? We will spread out, and in so doing will transform our human habitation sites into those allowing beauty of design and landscaping, sanitation and fresh air, privacy and playgrounds, and a plot whereon to raise things.” -- Frank Lloyd Wright

gregpilling• 10 years ago

your linked article says at the end:

"But it would also be silly to suggest the economy didn't play a role. Gas prices began their dizzying rise early in the decade, which discouraged driving. Real estate cooled off in 2006, which discouraged spending on expensive items like cars. It's not as if everything was peachy until the day Lehman imploded.

That's why it's very hard to look at these charts and discern anything about the future. The degree to which Americans have taken their foot off the gas pedal in just a few years is pretty remarkable. "

AI_Overlord• 10 years ago

I keep seeing articles like this pop up here and there. My gut feeling tells me that someone is pushing an agenda. Even in NYC a car for me is really useful. I use it to take family to airport, pick them up from the airport, shopping at costco, lowes, homedepot, etc. A taxi cannot beat the convenience of owning one. But that is just my experience.

Could this just be Uber trying to convince us to use their service? Maybe this is one of those submarine articles pg mentions in one of his articles?

chjohasbrouck• 10 years ago

Source: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

technofiend2• 10 years ago

Relative to how it was in the 60's? (which predate me) I'm sure it has lost a great deal of its luster. The big car manufacturers were competing with each other to produce the biggest sleepers - cars with underrated horsepower both for competitive and insurance purposes - and they could be ordered from the dealer with very powerful engines.

In my hometown in the 60s and 70s you had kids simply circling the park for hours to see, be seen and show off their cars. You had drag racing up and down straight lines of road the kids had marked off at exactly 1/4 mile. TV shows featured cars as major plot points or even characters. Think Grandpa's Dragula in The Munsters, My Mother The Car and even into the 80's with Kitt and Knight Rider.

I think the modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. There are other ways now to do something interesting and get your name out there than spinning a wrench. And gas prices and emission laws on the tail of the gas crises in the early 1970s certainly played its part in the death of car culture. Just my humble opinion of course.

dexwiz• 10 years ago

I think people who do OSS, and people who mod cars do it for very different reasons. The thrill of going fast and the thrill of solving a logic problem are very different.

manigandham• 10 years ago

modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions.

I don't think so. Cars and computers/programming are completely different interests. I'm into both but the enjoyment of cars isn't really matched by anything else and I can't see it being replaced. Neither would any of my friends who are into cars. There's still a big thriving car culture out there, it's just moved upscale a bit due to the other things you described like rising costs and reduction in time and space.

technofiend2• 10 years ago

I think it depends on where you grow up and what's valued in your area - but kids are very much influenced by their peers. There's still car culture - I wasn't arguing that there isn't - I was saying for your average high school kid in the little Texas town I'm talking about it doesn't have the same influence it once did. Of course I haven't surveyed the kids so I don't have anything beyond anecdotal data but I know the park is no longer encircled for hours by kids in cars every Sunday afternoon. Their interests lie elsewhere.

Spooky234• 10 years ago

I don't think driving is losing its allure, I think people are making less and cars are getting more and more expensive.

$20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k.

Renting rides from Uber is a suckers bet. There's a reason why poor people, business travelers and drunks are the only people who took taxis pre über.

JauntTrooper2• 10 years ago

20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k.

You can get a brand new Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 3, or Chevy Cruze - with lots of very nice features - for 15k to 19k.

Spooky234• 10 years ago

MSRP on a civic was under $10k in the 90s, and you could get a midsize sedan like a Camry or Accord for $15k.

SCAQTony• 10 years ago

Interest or lack of interest in regards to driving is primarily regional. This cities adore the car:

1. Austin 2. Los Angeles 3. Daytona Beach 4. Detroit 5. Portland 6. Phoenix 7. Snoqualmie 8. Atlanta 9. Los Vegas

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-ent...

dota_fanatic• 10 years ago

Methinks the author is out of touch. Austin suffers from too many cars on too few, small roads, so the traffic is atrocious during work hours. Their population is exploding and the infrastructure cannot keep up. The parking situation is bad, unless you can afford to just throw money down the drain.

As a result, there's a large biking population, despite how dangerous it is biking on those crowded streets. There's a good attempt at bike lanes, but not good enough.

abalashov8• 10 years ago

My wife and I live in Atlanta. We have three children (3, 4, and a newborn) and live in a 1200 sq. ft. 2 BR apartment downtown. We use our car maybe once a month, and mostly because our pediatrician's out in the suburbs. I won't deny that we're beneficiaries of Instacart, for as long as that's around, as there's no grocery store within reasonable walking distance.

We have no plans to move out of the city, though it would be nice if there were 3+ BR options for people like us that weren't insanely expensive penthouses or niche luxury units at $3200/mo+[1].

We're not representative of the mainstream Atlanta consensus, but we're not the only ones like this. There's a palpable revitalisation of downtown going on that has attracted lots of young professionals. I certainly expect it to stick and grow.

[1] Yes, I know that's the going rate for a rent-controlled 500 sq. ft. studio with leaking pipes in SF. Have the heart to make some provisions for Atlanta, where median rent is $1200 - $1400.

RcouF1uZ4gsC• 10 years ago

I was not to see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but one thing that might affect the driving habits of the under 25 cohort is that people in general are waiting later to have children.

Having children dramatically changes the calculus involved with driving a car. When I was single I really did not have to shop much, it was easy for me to walk or bike to school or work even in bad weather and I could choose a not so good place to live that was cheap and close to work cause I really did not spend too much time at home except for crashing at night.

With children now, I have to buy a lot more supplies. To save money I often buy stuff in bulk. Also, I am more concerned about neighborhood safety and good schools. Now a place that meets my criteria at a price I can afford is likely to not be within walking or biking distance from work. Also, when I want to go somewhere in inclement weather, I find it more preferable for me to put my children in my dry climate controlled car, than to have to worry about if they are getting wet, cold, or hot.

My point is not to talk about driving being good or bad but to point out that having children can be a huge confounding factor when looking driving trends and drawing conclusions about these trends without taking into account the larger demographic trends surrounding when people are having children is likes to be misleading.

pnathan5• 10 years ago

This is a big deal, unfortunately. I am super onboard with the urbanization movement, but cost of a 3-4 bedroom living space is not cheap in an urban area. I really don't want to raise my kids in a suburb - my wife and I grew up in that environment and it was unpleasant. But we may be forced that direction just to afford to have enough space for 1-2 children. :-(

edit to add some color commentary: I would mostly like to sell my car and not buy another one; I would like to use public transit everywhere; I would like to live in a high-density area with 6+ story residences. Many benefits accrue in these situations; I don't understand the pleasure or enjoyment of living outside of that kind of environment - having done so myself, the more urban the area, the better living it is.

keehun• 10 years ago

Just curious, what did you and your wife find unpleasant about growing up in the suburbs? I grew up in a suburb and loved it very much.

rayiner3• 10 years ago

I grew up in an 1,100 square foot house with a four person family. My downtown Baltimore apartment is larger.

mdorazio• 10 years ago

What about suburban family life was unpleasant? I'm curious what you think the upsides are for raising kids in a city, which I personally think is a bad idea. Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids without all the difficulties a city adds.

bcook2• 10 years ago

Deriving that the suburbs (or anywhere) are "unpleasant" from such little information is illogical and presumptuous.

Although it's just as anecdotally short-sighted as your conclusion, I have found that it is not where you are, but who you are with that majoritively affects your emotional perspective.

Edit: I have lived in the "woods" my entire life, so I have no dog in this fight. Do we seriously support shitty logic like the OP mentions? Anecdatae is not data.

rplst8• 10 years ago

Not everyone feels this way though. I had a fairly rural upbringing in the northeast and I long for a less dense, no traffic, laid back way of life. Unfortunately, our culture has chosen to forget that way of life. However, one aspect of living a rural lifestyle is that life without a car is almost impossible in this day in age.

I personally think urbanization brings with it more problems that it solves. While they are more social perhaps, cities are anything but sustainable and aren't a natural way for humans to live with nature. Cities are a breeding ground for man made disaster and are IMHO one of the reason the fear of terrorism is winning out over personal freedom.

abalashov8• 10 years ago

As a native Eastern European (who has been in the US most of his life), I'm still occasionally flabbergasted at the paucity of 3+ bedroom apartment options in US cities, as well as how crappy the <= 2 BR options are. It seems there's a cultural expectation that once there's more than two of you, you move out to the suburbs and buy a freestanding house. Like you, I have absolutely zero intention of following that script.

Central/Eastern European apartments often had a small foyer, a narrow hall way, and doors along the perimeter into ~2-3 rooms--sometimes more. The hallway usually had closet space. One room was generally somewhat bigger than the others and understood to be a "living room". Kitchens were separate rooms and often had a door of their own, which effectively meant they were an additional room, since one could work, study and socialise at the kitchen table. Overall, there was much more compartmentalisation and walls, which I think is essential if you have children, but even if you don't. Interestingly, I wouldn't say their area was much bigger than 1-2 BR apartments typically found in America--the floor plan was just configured much more rationally. Such apartments were fairly close to table stakes in former socialist bloc countries, as well as elsewhere in central Europe.

For instance, my wife and I live with our three young children in a 2 BR ~1200 sq ft. unit in downtown Atlanta--definitely against the grain. It's the typical American apartment layout, a poor and awkward imitation of a house; front door that opens into an "open plan" consolidated living room and kitchen environment, and two bedrooms where "private life" is said to take place.

What would make far more sense to me would be to take that same 1200 sq ft. and dump the second bathroom and the unnecessarily large walk-in closet in the master bedroom. That would certainly provide for a third--if small--room that could be used as a study, which would literally make all the difference for allowing me to get at least some work done at home. And we don't need a giant "TV room"; what we need are walls, noooks and crannies. It's wasteful and pointless; it leaves us with two bedrooms that are really only good for sleeping, and one common area in which all five of us have to coexist much of the time. Might as well just get a large studio at that point.

As I see it, much of the problem with "open plan" offices carries over into "open plan" floor plans. I don't understand Americans' obsession with and preference for this design. It's perfectly possible for families to live comfortably in a central urban place with relatively little square footage--if it were designed more sensibly and with some of the virtues that otherwise can be found only in a freestanding house.

Pxtl2• 10 years ago

They made much smaller 3/4 bedroom homes before Ww2 and the ascent of the car. Many of them lacked driveways. You can pack a lot of homes like that into a small space and then get good LRT service to a nearby corner. Cities were built for that before - look at old industrial towns like Pittsburgh and Flint. If we can salvage those old industrial cities, there's great opportunity there for transit-oriented living without giving up single-family homes.

I live in Hamilton, which is the Pittsburgh of Canada, and there is great promise here for the "have it all" urban lifestyle.

ckdarby• 10 years ago

I wish the HN community did not allow paywall content.

bootload2• 10 years ago

When I posted the site, I checked if it was readable. Clicking on the link, I still get a readable article. Is there a limit on WSJ articles you can read, is it geo-blocked?

RussianCow2• 10 years ago

You can read the full article by clicking the "web" link under the title.

rory096• 10 years ago

Not to mention that states all over the country have been raising their driving ages, reducing the number of eligible drivers. Here in New York you can no longer get a license until you're 17 years old if you've taken driver's ed, else it's age 18. Not surprising, then, that the percentage of drivers under 17 has declined.

Article makes no mention of that fact and I wasn't able to locate the paper with a cursory look.

syntheticnature• 10 years ago

As someone who grew up in NYS but hasn't lived there in a while, that's a huge change; it used to be there was a special driver's ed that would let you drive between 9pm-9am, or somesuch (assuming it was not to/from school or a job) when 17, but back when I went through that process you could get at least that partial license at 16.

candeira• 10 years ago

This was us. I had never owned a car, had let my license lapse.

As a childless couple, my wife and I used public transport to visit friends, shopped by bike, use a car share service (zipcar here in Melbourne, Australia) to visit relatives occasionally and for weekend trips.

With child one, I got my license again, and we used the car share service more often, as we planned compound trips where we went to see friends, made a supermarket trip with the car, all with the child, which would have been too time consuming without a car.

Once child two arrived, schlepping two car seats to and from the car share parking spot became too much. Also, child one started having things to go to (swimming, playdates). So we bit the bullet and bought a car.

I plan to go carless again as soon as we don't need a children mover. My wife is not so sure. By then, self-driving cars might make our decision easier.

wmil• 10 years ago

Insurance is also a huge issue for under 25s. At least in Ontario, insurance and gas is close to what it costs to rent a room in a house.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/adventure/trends/...

The problem for the car industry is that once you get older you're used to getting by without a car.

Pxtl2• 10 years ago

I think the reasable goal for a nuclear family with small children in a mixed-transportation future is a single car household. I'm trying to get down to one car with three small children. I live in walking distance to their school, I bike to work, and my wife takes the minivan to drop the youngest to her sitter and go to her job. On weekends I take the van to take the kids to their programs while I hit the gym and then we all go shopping. My oldest sits nicely on the bus when we do that, so it's promising.

raarts• 10 years ago

Interestingly enough, dutch media for a few years have been reporting a similar trend among young people in The Netherlands.

pcurve• 10 years ago

Car ownership is becoming less fun. Recent cars are:

1. More difficult to repair.

2. More prone to breakage due to complexity

3. Less fun to drive. Good luck finding stick shift.

I'd hate to be high school student these days.

jethro_tell• 10 years ago

Mostly right, but,

More prone to breakage due to complexity

Engines used to be good for 10 - 30k miles, now that's a service interval.

omegaham4• 10 years ago

2. More prone to breakage due to complexity

I agree with a lot of the newer features, but it's a fact that old luxury features are now standard, (and more reliable than the old luxury features) and the regular features are more reliable than ever. Transmissions last longer, brakes last longer, engines last longer, tires last longer. Hell, tire technology has gotten so good that you actually have to do something to get a flat. It used to be that you just got flats every now and then. Not anymore.

Basically, if you want luxury features that will break at about the same rate as the luxury features on cars in the 80s, you can get them. If you want a really basic model car that doesn't have motorized doors and electrically controlled seats, you can get that, too.

And it'll get fantastic gas mileage, and it won't kill you in a car crash, either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

arpa2• 10 years ago

You are right, especially about #2.

zipwitch• 10 years ago

When the WSJ says "more Americans" does it actually mean that, or does it mean "more people who live in the US and make at least $100,000 annually"?

ascagnel_4• 10 years ago

They mean more Americans.

For example, New Jersey has a number of smaller cities (Newark, Paterson, Passaic, Trenton, Camden, etc) in close proximity to major metro areas (NYC, Philadelphia) that suffered debilitating white flight a generation ago. These cities are still economically depressed and are mostly inhabited by non-whites and tend to have lower incomes.

As much as the majority here seems to be extolling the virtues of urbanization, the real challenge are cities like this: what are currently barely-functional city cores that must be rehabilitated without substantially displacing current residents.

EGreg• 10 years ago

That's because more people are able to work from home, and cities have finally become more walkable, as more areas are built up. In the suburbs, driving is still big.

nyan4• 10 years ago

And it is about time! This crazy fuel-consumerism is simply unsustainable.

anexprogrammer• 10 years ago

Hardly surprising. Where's the appeal of driving when you spend so much more of your time stuck in nose-to-tail traffic jams and breathing fumes? The "open road" is either hundreds of miles away or something you ask your parents about. Insurance is becoming unaffordable for youngsters. Fuel is near £5 a gallon.

People do most of their shopping online and the supermarket delivers, so there's no weekly need of the car like there once was. Twenty years ago you pretty much needed a car just for the weekly groceries. So one of the key motivators has gone. You're left transporting with toddler age children as one of the key motivators, so you can delay getting one until you're thinking about having a family. As we're having families later and later in life...

A car is simply no longer something as desirable as it once was.

eximius• 10 years ago

I would never give up the autonomy that driving allows.

It might be cheaper for me to do some public transit + Uber or something (seriously doubt it where I love), but it'd have to be basically free for me to accept being dependent on others so much.

jusben1369• 10 years ago

I think it's 3 things (I have teenagers about to get permits)

1) Parents don't let their kids drive or walk anywhere due to safety concerns (real or unfounded) So kids have built in chauffeurs and thus a lot less motivation to drive anywhere. 2) Uber 3) Work returning to city centers.

Teenagers have parents driving them everywhere. They use Uber at college and then get a job in a city. I guess they could take on the expense and headache of car ownership but there's very little upside.

barney54• 10 years ago

If driving is losing its allure, then how are people getting around? The reason I wonder is that in some places like LA, public transit ridership is down, not up as you would expect. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-slum...

ascagnel_4• 10 years ago

Uber, Lyft, and other ride-sharing services are one option. The other thing to look at would be unemployment numbers (a sudden spike in new unemployment claims or a trough in total unemployment enrollment could correlate to a drop in commuting).

ryandrake2• 10 years ago

I don't see driving going away for me any time soon, for the following reasons:

1. I live 50 miles from work and 10 miles from my nearest close friend.

2. House is within bicycling distance to a single train station, but the train doesn't go anywhere useful. You basically need auto transportation once you get off it, which makes it pointless.

3. Kid who will be in school soon, and is too far from the nearest elementary school to walk.

4. Hobbies (e.g. wood working) that often require me to haul large heavy items from stores miles away.

5. Generally we like to go out and do stuff. Whether it's across town or across the state, there's really only one option: You have to drive.

People don't realize how big the USA is, and how far things are apart. Unless you're in a dense urban environment ($$$) you're kind of stuck needing to drive.

stevesearer• 10 years ago

I agree. We just drove up to Oakland from Santa Barbara for the weekend where the only other options of getting there are train, plane, and possibly bus (never looked into it).

I'd love to take the train because I love being a passenger and think they are fun, but it is significantly more expensive with multiple people and it takes 8 hours where driving takes about 5. Plus once we get there, it is nice to have a way to get around.

mrtron2• 10 years ago

1. You could gain a few hours a day of leisure with an autonomous car. 2. Sounds like you won't use that train in this scenario. 3. I am sure someone will figure out safe autonomous kids->school delivery. 4. Perfect case for hitting the 'large truck' button in an app. Or more likely, stores will have delivery well sorted out. 5. Longer term rentals seem like another thing that will get easily sorted out.

You might always need longer distance transit, but it seems unlikely you will continue needing to drive.

ryandrake2• 10 years ago

Once the cost of a car (amortized over 10 years) + gas + maintenance + insurance > the cost to rent a car for all of my driving needs, I'm ditching the car. But it isn't anywhere close yet (and I have records for myself for 20 years).

abalashov8• 10 years ago

Yeah, but a 50 mi commute is ($$$) too, in wear/tear as well as fuel.

omegaham4• 10 years ago

In many cases, you save much more on rent because you're not spending $1700 a month to live in a shoebox.

What's really costly is time. That 50 miles in traffic is an hour and a half, so you end up spending 3 hours in traffic every day. This turns your 8-hour workday into an 11-hour workday.

officialchicken2• 10 years ago

Good!!! You have embraced a self-reinforcing lifestyle, but it is a conscious decision you have made, probably because it's what makes you happy/sane. When you have the $$$ to live in a dense urban environment things like cars become a major annoyance, and the ~$1000/mo for parking and insurance is really just a terribly inefficient use of capital, nothing more.

Corollary:

USA'ians don't realize how big the world is, and how just how closely things are interconnected. No matter your location, if you are poor, all transportation is a significant drain on your income.

rocky1138• 10 years ago

What Americans once called Driving is no longer really possible. Due to rules, traffic, and social pressure, you simply cannot let loose and have fun in a car anymore. What Americans do now is called Commuting, and that, of course, has zero allure. For some reason, we still call it Driving, but that should change since Commuting is much more accurate.

dopeboy• 10 years ago

Couple thoughts coming from a late 80s baby raised in the burbs:

* Cars are a symbol of freedom. You don't have to ask mom or dad to drop you off at the movie theaters. You can actually do things after school with your friends rather than go straight home. You can blast music that expresses your counter cultural identity as loud as you want without anyone telling you to turn it down.

* Cars are an expression of identity. If you're about status, you rock the Benz. If you're about strength, you have the raised pickup truck. If you're about speed, you have the Civic with VTEC turbo, NOS, and the loud exhaust.

* Cars are fun. There is no better feeling than having your favorite music turned high, your windows down, and rapidly accelerating through traffic. The roar that you hear and feel from your car tops off the experience. I haven't been able to reproduce this rush on other vehicles like boats or bikes.

mikeash• 10 years ago

Interesting that all three of your examples involve anti-social behaviour. I have nothing against cars, but blasting loud music or a loud exhaust is a dick move.

ascagnel_4• 10 years ago

Also a late 80s baby from the burbs:

* Cars are a shackle. I've seriously considered moving to within walking distance of the local train station, since I commute via train; even the slightly more expensive apartment would be greatly offset by the reduced need to fuel and maintain the car.

* One person's expression of identity is another's nuisance. I lived on a street where people with loud exhausts would accelerate so they maximize the noise. It'd be a loud distraction, cause traffic problems, and wake people up at night. Buses had less of a noise impact.

* Rapidly accelerating through traffic can be dangerous if other drivers aren't aware of you. Doubly so if you're weaving through traffic.

soylentcola4• 10 years ago

For me it's not so much about "allure" as it is economics. I live with my girlfriend and she has a modest car that she's paid off. We both work downtown and live about 3 miles from work. We mostly ride to work together so we only pay for one parking pass and use one car's worth of fuel.

When weather is nice I may ride my bike to work or ride the motorcycle I bought for shorter trips that don't require the car or highway driving. Either way, the bike cost maybe a third of what her car cost but neither of us is paying off a vehicle loan.

I've considered getting a second car. Something used and under $10k. Maybe even under $8k. Basically I think about it those handful of times it's not convenient to share the car and I need to pay $10 to take a cab/Uber or rent something once a year for a longer trip while she needs the car.

But I can never really justify it. As much as I'd like my own car, even a perfect balance (cheap/old enough to be affordable but no to much that maintenance makes up the difference) would cost way more than hiring or renting something for the times I'd use it.

ilaksh• 10 years ago

Credit is tighter and the economy is rough.

I envision automated lightweight safe single-passenger vehicles and something like a Hyperloop for long distance.

http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/

petsormeat2• 10 years ago

I'm 50, and an American. I've never owned a car. I can attest to the stigma of not traveling via personal motor vehicle, and the senseless barriers we've erected to getting through one's daily life by means other than car.

I'm cheered by these splashy blurbs, but I'm unconvinced they report a permanent trend: we still have a huge inventory of office park sprawl, strip mall wastelands, and residential "neighborhoods" with no sidewalks, with more being developed.

gadders• 10 years ago

I can understand people who live in cities not buying a car, but I know several people in their 30's who have not even learnt to drive.

I find this strange to understand. I'd put driving up there as a skill most people should know, like swimming.

fulafel• 10 years ago

Interesting to see that neither in the article or in the 166 comments discussing everyone's personal feelings toward driving, nobody even mentions the environment or climate change, the ethics of unnecessary burning of fossil fuels. In Europe this aspect would come up pretty quickly. A kind of taboo?

theworstshill• 10 years ago

Money and congestion are to blame. The car still gives you incredible freedom and saves a lot of time.

EvanPlaice• 10 years ago

Cars used to be fun. Car companies used to encourage the enthusiast culture. Enthusiast culture has changed to mostly rich kids showing off the Beamer their parents bought them. very few actually do their own work.

Nowadays, cars are more expensive. Insurance is mandatory. Owners are discouraged from doing their own maintenance. Commuting to work only gets worse over time. And, to add insult to injury, gas prices still suck despite oil prices being the lowest they have been in decades.

All of the things that made car ownership fun for young guys is discouraged by manufacturers because they've shifted their profit models to depend heavily on long-term service/maintenance.

If I move close to a city any time soon the first thing I plan to do is get rid of my car. at this point it's just an expensive burden.

Driving Is Losing Its Allure for More Americans

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