GitHub's Metal Cloud

http://githubengineering.com/githubs-metal-cloud/

by samlambert • 11 years ago

205 80 11 years ago

sargun• 11 years ago

This seems wrong to me. This was the state of the art ~3 years ago. Now, I feel like all of the machines should be provisioned already with an OS, and a basic image, and a orchestration system like CoreOS / Mesos / Docker should specialize them.

IMHO, requiring hardware, or the entire machine should be exception, not the rule.

packetized• 11 years ago

Wait, why? Are you advocating for the use of an abstraction layer where there isn't always a business case for using one?

detaro2• 11 years ago

Just because you use Containers/VMs for most of your apps doesn't mean that the lower levels don't need attention: installing OSes in the first place, hardware testing (both initially and to identify defects later), ...

And for important fileservers and databases you're going to run on specific hardware for a long time.

kbar13• 11 years ago

you realize the cloud runs on hardware right. machines don't magically come with everything installed and configured.

ownagefool• 11 years ago

Even if you were going to run CoreOS or Mesos on the machine, you'd still manage it booting your specific image, which you can change, rather than trusting the pre-installed dell verion and managing that relationship.

Now there's probably some room for debate on whether these guys job should just be outsourced to Amazon, but github has some pretty good uptime and they seem to know what they're doing, thus they've probably already won that debate.

lwhalen• 11 years ago

Sometimes you have a workload that really isn't a fit for virtualization/containers/whatever the latest Rails hotness is, at all, and you just need to throw a couple of cargo trailers of insanely massively-spec'd servers at the problem. In those cases, your 'old school' server provisioning toolkit had better be on-point.

It's easy to forget just how ridiculously powerful bare iron is these days. Go to Dell.com and see how much RAM you can cram into a U or three or four today in 2015. Or see how many IOPS a modern NetApp or Symmetrix (EMC) can push with 'flashcache' or million-dollar SSDs. It is ridiculous, and while a lot of those platforms are meant for 'building your own private cloud', etc, there's a non-trivial amount of workloads/projects where bare-iron is the best tool for the job.

icebraining• 11 years ago

Containers are just a namespacing tool, though; you're still running on bare metal (well, bare Linux). Docker in particular runs on AuFS, which is slow, but other containerization tools just use a chroot.

mariusmg• 11 years ago

Sometimes you have a workload that really isn't a fit for virtualization

Yeah, any serious I/O load is unsuited for virtualization.

mverwijs5• 11 years ago

I'm surprised everyone is still installing to disk. In 2008/2009, we had a POC where we ran the OS from memory after booting over PXE.

   * boot a live image into memory
   * point LXD/RKT/Docker to /containers
   * ...
   * profit!

iofj2• 11 years ago

The big issue I'm having with that is that it involves trusting vendors to get network boot right. Especially when it comes to the looping part of "loop until DHCP gets a response" it becomes a problem. One of the cheap vendor tries 30 times and then goes to a boot failed screen after trying the disk.

Also, 1 time out of a 4-5000 or so network boot fails. Not sure why.

bcantrill• 11 years ago

For whatever it's worth, SmartDataCenter, Joyent's open source SmartOS-based system for operating a cloud[1], does exactly this[2] -- and (as explained in an old but still technically valid video[3]) we have found it to be a huge, huge win. And we even made good on the Docker piece when we used SDC as the engine behind Triton[4] -- and have found it all to be every bit as potent as you suggest![5]

[1] https://github.com/joyent/sdc

[2] https://github.com/joyent/sdc/blob/master/docs/developer-gui...

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieGWbo94geE

[4] https://www.joyent.com/blog/triton-docker-and-the-best-of-al...

[5] https://www.joyent.com/blog/spin-up-a-docker-dev-test-enviro...

vidarh5• 11 years ago

CoreOS lets you do this if you PXE boot. It will then by default run entirely out of RAM.

jon-wood2• 11 years ago

I built something similar for a managed hosting provider ~10 years ago. That doesn't make it any less useful now, and this does a ton more than our tool did, far more elegantly.

At some point someone needs to manage the actual hardware, whether that's you, or a middleman, and when you're handling hundreds or even thousands of devices its just not practical without automation.

jssjr• 11 years ago

GitHub's physical infrastructure team doesn't dictate what technologies our engineers can run on our hardware. We are interested in providing reliable server resources in a easily consumable manner. If someone wants to provision hardware to run docker containers or similar, that's great!

We may eventually offer higher order infrastructure or platform services internally, but it's not our current focus.

alpb• 11 years ago

We've hacked together a Ruby script that retrieves a console screenshot via IPMI and checks the color in the image to determine if we've hit a failure or not.

That's pretty funny yet sounds a lot familiar to many of us as every now and then we all do these sort of nasty hacks.

markild• 11 years ago

Also probably a lot better than to make MemTest86 do all sorts of network stuff.

versteegen• 11 years ago

Yikes, having attended a computer vision conference last week, that sort of apporach is actually starting to sound reasonable and intelligent!

shanselman• 11 years ago

Ya, I came here to talk about that line as well. The whole article was interesting, but that line stood out as a pretty surprising hack for 2015.

osxrand• 11 years ago

Hah! I wrote a script a few months back and had to solve an issue of figuring out the state of a program running under wine, and that was my solution (to not in ruby, just a quick bash script). I was pretty happy with the results but if felt like an incredibly crude way to solve the problem, now I read that this is being used at much higher levels than I'll get to, maybe it's not so bad :)

SEJeff2• 11 years ago

Vs just buying opengear console servers and something like conserver to get the actual text via serial like most large Unix environments (every job I've worked at) do. Then you can just scrape the text.

FireBeyond3• 11 years ago

Right, this surprised me. They're doing IPMI, so why not SOL (Serial over LAN) to get the raw stream?

Actually, on second thoughts, I'm not surprised so much. I've read many threads on Supermicro IPMI and people's frustration with it (reliant on outdated Java, and hacked together wrappers over VNC) that make it seem like a deliberate choice to obfuscate things -just- enough to make other tools difficult.

mverwijs5• 11 years ago

We did something similar at Optiver.

    * boot a custom live cd (a la Knoppix) over PXE
    * Live CD places node into database if it doesn't exist yet, 
    using dmidecode to find serialnumbers and such
    * Live Cd keeps querying database for instructions
    * Engineer adds a profile to the node in the database
    * Live Cd slices up disk to match the profile
    * Live Cd fetches a tarball of the base OS from an URL 
    and throws it on the metal. Runs grub setup. Reboots.

Tumblr did something like this with http://tumblr.github.io/collins/.

defect• 11 years ago

Also checkout https://github.com/Tumblr/genesis which does sort of the same thing as the PXE image GitHub writes about.

voltagex_2• 11 years ago

Hey cool so what I'm fiddling around with in iPXE isn't completely obsolete in the age of Docker and disposable VMs.

mverwijs5• 11 years ago

Well, no. But IMHO, iron is only do-able if you have enough of it. This I learned the hard way at my previous contract, where we only had a handful of servers and all of them production.

When you want to automate your complete infra, including rolling out hardware, you need hardware to develop and test on. Entropy of life will ensure that exactly that moment you need to reinstall that PostgreSQL slave from scratch, the PXE server is unreachable, or the server has a different diskcontroller, or an iLO certificate expired. Or something stupid.

Test your code. And for Ops this means: machines that are solely for the testing pleasure of Ops. No other function.

vidarh5• 11 years ago

Even those machines running Docker and disposable VMs still need to run on something.

I've got systems PXE booting to CoreOS where everything else runs in Docker containers (even the odd KVM VM).

mpdehaan2• 11 years ago

I did something sort of similar with Live CD images for booting hardware not on a PXE network in Cobbler. It could also register machines seen then first time by making system records for them.

https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler

What is interesting in this article in particular are the auto-firmware upgrade state transitions, which seem pretty neat.

The chat bot is I guess neat, but if a lot of people are using the cloud that could be a hard way to get status.

invertedohm• 11 years ago

Kind of amazing that the state of the art in this area hasn't changed in nearly 10 years. The marketing angle is funny as well - everything has to be a cloud now. I think I used to call what we built at Optiver a "private cloud" but "Metal Cloud" is nicely buzzwordy as well.

PS - Hi Marty, unknown nick here but I'm sure you can figure out who I am. :D

jsjohnst• 11 years ago

Actually there's heavy overlap in functionality if you include other Tumblr things with Collins like Phil, Genesis, and Configrr.

Collins - asset management

Phil - ipxe booting based on Collins state

Genesis - base hardware configuration (firmware, bios, raid, etc), burnin, kickstart

Configrr - state / config management

seanhandley• 11 years ago

Sounds a lot like http://theforeman.org/

A_Beer_Clinked• 11 years ago

Can anybody with experience of using Openstack Ironic[1] in this space comment on advantages of rolling your own liek GitHub?

[1] https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Ironic

detaro2• 11 years ago

If you are not running OpenStack otherwise I'd say maintaining it is way to much effort to get relatively basic functionality. They also would still need custom work for asset databases, the memory checks, so they don't gain much.

mariojv• 11 years ago

The OnMetal [1] team at Rackspace uses OpenStack Ironic.

It's saved us a lot of engineering time and let us offer the same interface as our VMs for provisioning baremetal machines with OpenStack Nova.

[1] http://www.rackspace.com/en-us/cloud/servers/onmetal

dmourati• 11 years ago

A consultant from Ubuntu called Ironic a "still birth" and said its name was indicative of its fit with the rest of OpenStack. His team used MaaS which I gather serves most of the same purpose:

https://maas.ubuntu.com/

stephenr4• 11 years ago

Breaking news: A consultant for a company trash talks an open source competitor.

stephenr4• 11 years ago

These lines seem odd to me, maybe it's just the wording:

[gPanel] Deploying DNS via Heaven... hubot is deploying dns/master (deadbeef) to production. hubot's production deployment of dns/master (deadbeef) is done! (6s)

Is this just an IMO odd use of the word "deploying" or does a DNS change really mean building and deploying a new package/image?

jcrawfordor• 11 years ago

I've always thought of 'deploy' as a generic term for pushing any change to production. I think this is pretty typical - e.g. you deploy your application, even if that just means updating some files.

_yy• 11 years ago

They probably manage DNS in a Git repository/using Puppet, so deploying may be quite literal. I see no issue with that.

mrmondo• 11 years ago

We do this, it works well do us with 200-300 servers.

vidarh5• 11 years ago

I deploy public DNS via new images. Image builds are fast, and our DNS changes rarely. When DNS changes frequently I wouldn't recommend it, though. Our internal DNS is using SkyDNS2 (backed by Etcd) instead, because that changes frequently (service registrations etc. as vms are started/stopped). But for the public DNS we like having the one DNS change => one git commit => one Docker image mapping to see who/why/when DNS changed.

samlambert• 11 years ago

We can deploy DNS like an app. If we want to add hostnames manually we do it in git and deploy the DNS "app" via hubot.

castell• 11 years ago

The Hubot workflow sounds interesting. It seems more and more DevOps prefer it.

Has someone first hand experience with such Hubot usage? Do you prefer such commands or would you want to write more informal short sentences?

Rockslide• 11 years ago

There was also a talk titled "Chatops" about this specific thing if you want to learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NST3u-GjjFw

jon-wood2• 11 years ago

I'm somewhat split. There's definite value in having a shared history of what people have done, but I prefer that to take the form of command line tools pushing status updates to Hipchat or whatever. You lose so much convineance by pretending Hipchat's chat box is a terminal, everything from command history to being able to quickly iterate over the contents of a file or set environment variables.

glenngillen• 11 years ago

One of the most compelling aspects of it for me isn't so much the shared history, but just visibility of what people have done. It's a really effective way of transferring knowledge of how things are done. You can easily drop into the room and watch play-by-play how a given task is done.

ktt• 11 years ago

Unfortunately most of the material on ChatOps currently covers only how to get Hubot to display cat pictures or other trivia [1]. Maybe it's because each company should create their own "chat API" but I'd also like to hear some real, inside "war stories".

Does anyone knows what app does GitHub use for chats? Looks like a simple and elegant UI over Basecamp.

[1] http://hubot-script-catalog.herokuapp.com/

tehbeard• 11 years ago

Going off Hubot's sourcecode, I'd guess campfire.

q3k3• 11 years ago

Semi-off-topic, but I am genuinely scared by giving a chat bot full root access to your infrastructure. This just doesn't seem like a mature enough, AAA-enabled channel. Especially when there's a third party (HipChat/Slack/...) involved.

ymse• 11 years ago

Hardware provisioning is a dying art. I would love to see a modern-day xCAT[0] clone that's easy to install and configure and with proper multi-platform support. Foreman is half-way there, but AFAIK doesn't do BMC provisioning and discovery, which is a big deal.

0: https://github.com/xcat2/xcat-core/blob/master/docs/source/i...

eLobato• 11 years ago

Foreman does discovery [1] (PXE, PXE-less, segmented networks, through bootdisk) and handles BMC, I wrote the API in fact :)

http://theforeman.org/plugins/foreman_discovery/4.1/index.ht...

Maybe you were not aware because it's a plugin, we kind of have that problem in the Foreman community, plugins are not as visible as they should and they can contain key features.

dorfsmay• 11 years ago

Not as detailled on the tooling, but it sows how much hardware they use, Stackoverflow did a blog post on their datacentres move:

http://blog.serverfault.com/2015/03/

ptype• 11 years ago

Why would a company like GitHub choose Ubuntu over Debian? The LTS policy?

wtbob• 11 years ago

I too would be interested in the answer. From my perspective, Debian is the server Linux distro par excellence, and in my experience the folks who choose Ubuntu have been devs who don't actually use Linux (e.g., the sorts who develop on a Mac or in a VM rather than on a personal Linux system). It's not really fair to Ubuntu, which is decent enough in its own way, but I tend to consider the choice of Ubuntu to be a bit of an architecture smell.

I'm honestly interested in what the valid reasons to prefer Ubuntu over Debian (particularly on the server side) are.

stephenr4• 11 years ago

I agree with the main point you're trying to make, but the suggested examples you provide don't always hold true.

I'm pretty dedicated to Debian on the server, a good part of my business is providing infrastructure support and setup, and I work from a MacBook Pro.

avar• 11 years ago

Some choose it because Ubuntu, unlike Debian, has a guaranteed timely release cycle, and unlike Debian they have formalized LTS.

q3k3• 11 years ago

Newer packages, sane LTS policy, easier to get non-free firmware/drivers going (as in, the default CD comes with them), seemingly more support from third parties.

They're both pretty awful due to their automagic(al tendency to break down in mysterious ways), but if I have to choose, I'll go with Ubuntu.

Disclaimer: My main box runs Gentoo and I own no Mac machines, if that changes anything in your vision of Ubuntu users.

otterley2• 11 years ago

A better question, in my mind, is why they'd choose Ubuntu over CentOS or RHEL, since they're running on Dell hardware, and Kickstart is far, far superior to Debian/Ubuntu's PXE install (and preseeding is awful to configure). My org went through a lot of pain because of this choice (which preceded me) and I'd hate for anyone to go through what I went through.

Also Dell's maintenance tooling barely works on Ubuntu at all; they don't even officially support their OpenManage stack on it. And forget about online firmware upgrades.

stephenr4• 11 years ago

why they'd choose Ubuntu over CentOS or RHEL

Maybe they'd actually used them before.

CentOS is a turd of a distribution, I'm certain the only reason it has any marketshare is because it's the only supported "free" OS for cPanel/WHM which a lot of web hosts provide for non-technical customers.

danesparza• 11 years ago

I've known about Hubot for a while.

But did anybody else see Hubot with a Santa hat and think that was adorable? Because I did.

grandalf• 11 years ago

This is pretty cool but is there really that much benefit to doing this? What size IT staff do the savings justify? Does that change if you use Amazon's market-driven options like spot pricing and capacity planning discounts?

scott_karana2• 11 years ago

The equivalent of a M4.x10large running 24/7, which would cost $1814/month, costs about $400-$500/month lease from Dell or HP.

There are other costs, like cooling, power, peering, networking gear, colocation/building costs, having spare parts on hand, paying sysadmins, et cetera, that are going to vary based on your requirements and region.

amalag2• 11 years ago

Is this also done remotely by gPanel?

Once we've gathered all the information we need about the machine, we enter configuring, where we assign a static IP address to the IPMI interface and tweak our BIOS settings. From there we move to firmware_upgrade where we update FCB, BMC, BIOS, RAID, and any other firmware we'd like to manage on the system.

FireBeyond3• 11 years ago

In theory it should be if you have a tightly controlled hardware process (and in this case, Dell, who is used to selling servers configured to initially PXE boot, etc), and you have some 'expect/send' scripting in place.

amalag2• 11 years ago

I was not aware you can control BIOS settings, BIOS upgrades and configuring IPMI remotely like that.

EDIT - looks like it is straightforward if you control the IPMI locally. So the software would send commands to do it locally.

GitHub's Metal Cloud

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