We Need the Right to Repair Our Gadgets

http://www.wsj.com/articles/we-need-the-right-to-repair-our-gadgets-1441737868

by sinak • 11 years ago

220 123 11 years ago

millzlane• 11 years ago

If it can happen for cars it could happen for electronics. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140125/RETAIL05/301279936/...

I applaud dell for making their repair manuals available online. All companies should be following in their footsteps. Apple give all sorts of information to techs but not to consumers. No repair manuals and Even the support tools are different.

kagamine3• 11 years ago

That's a slightly differnet scenario, as the disgnostics don't actaully "fix" anything, although you can use disgnostics software to adjust settings like ride height, injector settings etc. There really was no extra work involved by the manufacturers in the link you provided, they had all the information well documented and just refused to publish it.

There is a downside to diagnostics tools being freely available, you can clear any fault codes before you sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer, this will prevent the dash warning lights appearing until the sensor registers the fault again, which could be under particular driving conditions. Of course, this is little different from the normal 'buying a used car' pitfalls.

ON the other hand, I saved literally thousands of dollars by diagnosing my air-suspension fault myself, and then carrying out the work required based on that fault code. Pretty sure the dealership don't want me doing that, but then maybe they shouldn't charge a high hourly rate for a 5-10 minute process of attaching a cable and looking at the screen?

rjsw3• 11 years ago

If you had the full documentation on all the systems on a car you could also reset the odometer before selling it to someone else, or turn off the alarm system and unlock the doors.

Before the recent examples of using internet connected entertainment systems to hack cars there was a case where someone found that there was a vehicle bus connector in the wheel arch of certain vehicles, plug into it and you could do anything to the car from outside.

jdmichal2• 11 years ago

There is a downside to diagnostics tools being freely available, you can clear any fault codes before you sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer, this will prevent the dash warning lights appearing until the sensor registers the fault again, which could be under particular driving conditions.

This is already reality. Any AutoZone store, and probably most other large auto parts retailers, will read and clear codes for you at no charge. Their upside is that you might buy a part to fix the code.

ArtDev• 11 years ago

Self-repair Manifesto: http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jerrymichalski/files/2012/12/...

I don't buy Apple products anyhow.

gurkendoktor3• 11 years ago

Buying Apple products is great if you plan to fix them yourself - just look up the difficulty on iFixit and go for an easy-to-fix model. Vote with your wallet! My MacBook Air 13" is trivial to open and actually looks gorgeous from the inside.

No matter which iPhone you buy, YouTube is full of video guides and you can buy DIY repair kits on eBay for most tasks.

It's unfair, because big brands don't have to do anything for these benefits, but that's the way it is. Buying niche products makes DIY repairs a lot harder.

dmschulman2• 11 years ago

How are they great for fixing yourself? They're specifically engineered to be completely unserviceable by a regular consumer.

Yes you can watch a Youtube video and figure out how to take them apart, Apple's devices have to be serviced by someone after all, but a ton of money, thought, time, and effort go into designing methods and hardware for obscuring the typical consumer's ability to dig into an Apple devices.

I've taken my Mac Mini apart multiple times, an impossible task without buying an iFixIt kit first. The reason I took the computer apart was to stuff a second hard drive into the machine. I had to remove every single component of the machine in order to access the hard drive. It was a huge pain in the ass just to add a second hard drive. Good luck doing that to a Macbook.

My Thinkpad features a single screw that lets me access the hard drive caddy. The product doesn't suffer at all from providing this feature and it gives me the ability to upgrade my machine as I see fit.

lsc2• 11 years ago

I don't buy Apple products anyhow.

I bought my first apple product six months ago. An iphone 5 32gb model. It had been roughly used, and I got a discount.

I bought this, in part, because I can get cheap parts for an older iphone; this is much less true of any other model of older phone.

Also, I can get updated software for an older iphone... this is also not true of older android phones (as far as I can tell, CyanogenMod drops support just as quickly as the original manufacturers. Yes, I could figure out how to port the security updates to the device-specific package, but I could also write my own phone OS, given enough time and effort. There's no reasonable/practical way to get up to date software for an old android phone.)

A new apple phone isn't as better than a new android as people say... and god damn, itunes is a piece of shit when it comes to managing podcasts. ios might even be worse (no sd card, etc..) But an iphone that is a couple years old and has sustained some damage is way better than an android of a similar vintage, simply because of the software and hardware support.

Note, it is pretty unlikely that I would buy an apple workstation, for all the reasons discussed in this article, and because I find their keyboard unpleasant.... but the point remains that in practical terms, it's way easier to repair an old Iphone than an old android phone, simply because of the wide availability of parts.

(that said, the fork of the fork of the fork of the nokia linux that came with my nokia n900 many years ago is still going, which is really kind of amazing. But the n900 is pretty primitive at this point.)

robin_reala• 11 years ago

Regarding your last point, sounds like you want http://neo900.org/

bobbles• 11 years ago

Samsung wants people to go to “qualified” technicians. In a statement, a spokesman said, “The technology found in TVs today is more sophisticated than ever before and often requires a level of expertise and technical proficiency to repair most of these high-quality products.”
I’ve heard this argument echoed elsewhere in the electronics industry. But the view is not unanimous: Dell, for one, makes repair guides and parts widely available on its site. So do H-P and Lenovo. Are we to believe that repairing a TV is so much more complicated than poking at a laptop?

Opening up a laptop and replacing a part available from the Dell online store is an entirely different scenario to fixing a burnt out TV...

Would the author be arguing the same thing if he'd tried to fix something himself and been zapped in the process?

mahyarm• 11 years ago

Do LCDs have the high voltage death risk that CRT TVs had?

mirimir• 11 years ago

Some LCD displays are backlit by CCFL lamps, which require HVAC. But the voltage is lower than CRTs need, and there's less current too. There's no HV for LED-backlit displays.

callesgg• 11 years ago

It has mains power in it. 230v in my country which is fairly lethal.

But as i see it we already have the right to fix or own stuff. I mean the warranty will be voided... which i my mind seams fair.

GauntletWizard• 11 years ago

Somewhere they've got an exposed AC plug, and there's likely some decently large capacitors nearby. Overall much safer - CRT Tubes themselves had a very high capacitance, and required much more capacitance on the outside to regulate voltage, but I imagine there's still several places you could poke on a modern LCD that would kill you.

scintill76• 11 years ago

Opening up a laptop and replacing a part available from the Dell online store is an entirely different scenario to fixing a burnt out TV...

Mainly because there isn't a Samsung online store that sells TV parts directly to users (admittedly I'm guessing here), nor did they design the TV to be fixable by semi-competent users, nor did they use interchangeable industry-standard parts, nor do they provide service manuals -- all contrary to the situations with many computers. If you want to argue that it should be this way, go ahead, but you can't merely say "computers and TVs are different", because the TV companies have made it that way by operating differently than the computer companies. A user is just as likely to zap himself on a PC as on a TV, but that didn't stop computers from being a lot more user-serviceable than TVs.

mod• 11 years ago

You could just as easily say that the computer companies made it that way.

More to the point, I'm under the impression that you can seriously injure yourself by working on a television, as it has large capacitors (or something, I don't know much about hardware).

I've never heard that said about a laptop, and I have no qualms about changing parts in my computers, while I'm fairly afraid of my televisions.

tremon• 11 years ago

Not sure about the author, but I would still be arguing the same thing. No, to a qualified technician there is hardly any difference between swapping capacitors on a TV board and swapping the PSU of a server. The main difference is the tool required.

But more importantly, what kind of patronizing, condescending attitude is that? "This is potentially hazardous, so we're not going to tell you how to do it"? I though most US citizens were against such nanny-state treatment? Or is this suddenly OK because it's not the government doing it, but a foreign corporation?

vacri• 11 years ago

That "qualified personnel only" comment is partly to protect against people at the low end of the Dunning-Kruger curve.

DanBC2• 11 years ago

Isn't it more about charing technicians for Samsug approved training, and a Samsung approved technician certification, and renewal fees each year to keep the listing in some Samsung approved technician list, and fees to access the Samsung approved repository of watermarked manuals?

The kruger-Dunning crowd would just ignore all that and have a go anyway ("How hard can it be?")

curiouscats• 11 years ago

It makes sense (from a customer focus and engineering perspective) to design items to be easily maintained/repaired. HDTV projection TVs primarily have lamp units that can be easily replaced by end users. My project HDTV was built in 2005 and doesn't have such an easy setup http://gadgets.curiouscatnetwork.com/2015/09/08/homeworx-hdt...

From looking around trying to find what bulbs I am suppose to use I found that pretty much all manufactures seemed to use a simple lamp unit replacement. They all decided it was silly to have such an item not easily replaceable - sadly not mine (mine may well have been the first year of projection HDTVs by Toshiba maybe they took short cuts to get it ready early).

Engineering for sensible repairs is something consumers should expect. Where you draw they line is sometimes hard but some things seem obvious. And that may change over time, not having easy user replaceable batteries seems silly to me. As Apple designed every smaller items and batteries didn't need to be replaced so often making them non-easily-user replaceable became more acceptable in my opinion.

Still it would be better to design for easy and cheap maintenance if possible. Far too often it seems like products are engineered without any thought to servicing or with thinking that seems like planned obsolesces (making it intentionally hard to maintain). Though my guess is it is usually just not thinking about how to design it well for the actual customer use, not them intentionally designing it so users have to buy new ones due to specific design features and company policies shortening the useful life to customers.

jessaustin• 11 years ago

The TVs sold in the 1950s and 60s had much bigger caps, and regular people fixed those all the time.

DanBC2• 11 years ago

And charged CRTs! And flyback transformers. And people fixed those, and did some calibration when the tv was powered on.

scarecrowbob• 11 years ago

To be fair, pretty much everyone I know who works on high-voltage tube electronics has shocked themselves badly at some point. That stuff can kill and maim.

But the circuits were much simpler... I understand how a rectifier works... I got no idea how a switch mode supply works. And the parts were a lot larger. And the cost per device was a lot greater, too, making paying a repair person a saner choice.

acomjean2• 11 years ago

Olympus cameras are another nightmare to repair. The button broke, but they 1) won't sell the parts to the repair store, 2) want it shipped to the factory and $200 to repair. A button that shouldn't have broken in the first place (I've take thousands and thousands of pictures and never had one fail before.

Its micro four-thirds so my next camera will be panasonic.

pizza234• 11 years ago

I had the opposite experience, to be fair. The shutter button broke (I think the spring), and they repaired it, for free.

acomjean2• 11 years ago

You figure they would just do that for the good will it engenders...

kagamine3• 11 years ago

Our oven broke due to a fault in a circuit board, also a common and well documented fault for the model, and the replacement, while available, was 2/3rds the cost of the oven. New oven, different manufacturer.

teh_klev• 11 years ago

You'll probably find that it's the same manufacturer, same parts, just a different retail brand and a slightly different case/chassis design.

I just had my hob replaced, turns out the new hob, branded as Neff is exactly the same hob branded by about 10 other electric hob makers you see in your local white goods outlet. All they did was change the knobs.

It's the same with bog standard fridges/freezers. I used to service computer equipment for a company that manufactured floor standing fridges/freezer combos. I was told by staff there that they manufactured them for nearly every conceivable well known brand in the UK - Hotpoint, Electrolux, Indesit. All that really changed between brand were the plastic moulded insides that held the shelves, door handles, and possibly the door facings. The actual refrigeration/control electronics meat and potatoes, chassis, power supply were pretty much the same across all the brands.

stevehawk• 11 years ago

This.

My GE fridge was all Samsung parts.

Which were all made by someone else.

samuellb• 11 years ago

But you can still buy some types of appliances without circuit boards (and with minimal complexity in general). When my fridge/freezer broke down, I bought one with a mechanical thermostat and no circuit board. Slightly higher power consumption and no display, but much cheaper and probably lasts longer. And since it has only high-voltage components, they are probably of higher quality thanks to certifications etc.

Fradow3• 11 years ago

The title irks me a little: you already have the right to repair, provided you have enough knowledge. What the author demands is documentation.

I would love more documentation, like anyone, but you don't really need any documentation to replace a broken capacitor (a very common failure for most screens, I guess): you need to know how to spot a broken capacitor, find a replacement, and basic soldering skills. There are tons of videos that teach that, but few people really want to research that (generally because they are afraid of electronics, or think they are not smart enough).

On the other end, some issues can't be fixed at all, because repairing is so close to the full price of the device. Some examples that happened to me: inflating smartphone battery that damages the motherboard, damaged screen due to shock (wide vertical band of dead pixels).

Between that, there are probably a lot of small problems that are specific to a particular model. It would be great that those ones are documented, indeed.

Some other basic things, like replacing a smartphone/laptop battery and screens would be very welcome on the manufacturer website, but like capacitors, you should be able to find tutorials for a lot of devices.

The truth is, to repair things, you need mostly knowledge to identify problems and labor time to fix things. Both of which is what makes it expensive.

belorn• 11 years ago

Limited access to parts is mostly about patents so even if you had all the knowledge in the world you are prevent by the state to create what is needed to do the repairs. After the patent is expired we often find that the social contract between inventor and state is violated, and society do not in fact gain the necessary information to replicate the invention by reading the patent. There has been some political discussion to force car manufacturers to provide equal access to parts in order to protect the free market for car repairs and maintenance.

Then we have digital locks (DRM) which the article brings up which artificially prevents customers from repairing. You can have all the knowledge in the world and still not be able to fix a simple issue since the digital signature of the part won't be accepted by the device. There has been political discussion around the world to forbid this kind of technical restrictions in cars or at least force retailers to inform the customer about the limitations.

Both issues impacts customer rights and is entirely political in nature. The problem of having enough knowledge, access to documentation, or skill to perform repairs is all secondary problems once the political right to repair is granted.

Fradow3• 11 years ago

Thanks, I didn't really consider this part of the problem. I thought, for "gadgets" (pc, smartphones and small electronics), DRM was a limited problem (I heard about coffee machines and cat litterbox DRM, and that's it). But it may well becomes a problem, if manufacturers find that people repairing gadgets reduce their revenue, which pre-suppose a non-negligible part of potential consumers are motivated to repair instead of buying new (I am not sure it's really a lot right now).

For limited access to parts, it depends what "parts" we are talking about. If it is an electronic part (capacitor, microcontroller etc...), most gadgets use off-the-shelf components, that are easy to find, provided you know where to search. If it is a black-box with very specific requirements (screen, battery, whole PCB ..), access to parts may indeed be a problem.

While I like the political right to repair, we have to be careful about what this mean. How does it affect small companies, that may not have the time to produce documentation, or very integrated products that can't really be repaired (which, if there is an exception, becomes a loophole big companies will use, of course).

marincounty• 11 years ago

I didn't read the article, but I think I know what the author is getting at?

Right now that fancy watch on your bosses wrist looks great while the wheels are turning. Once they stop, the person will need to send the watch to an expensive trip to the factory. Why, because these companies don't sell parts to independent watch repairers. That watch is essential a lease from the company.

That automobile, with the propiority operating system, breaks down. Independent auto repair shops have no legal right to buy the repair codes--let alone fiddle with the computers. All those fancy features break. People are being forced to bring their ailing automobile to expensive Dealerships. The tech has gotten so complicated, even dealership mechanics are learning on your dime. I know this for a fact. My best buddy is a dealership mechanic.

So, it's not just computers/electronics. I'm big on repair. I don't like this throw away society. If you don't have the knowledge/skills to repair a gadget--that's fine. If you are locked out of the system, can't get the schematics, or can't get parts--that just wrong?

I'm fine with not allowing a customer to fiddle with a gadget when in warranty, but after that warranty ends, they should be able to repair their Gadget?

icebraining3• 11 years ago

I don't think the watch example is valid; it's not an artificial restriction like hidden repair codes or patented screws, they simply don't sell the product (extra parts) you want.

Fuxy• 11 years ago

To be fair most electronics these days are not made with fix-ability in mind but them again that takes extra effort on the engineers part which would make the unit more expensive and less people would buy it.

Then again if the marketed it right a lot of the tinkerers would probably go for it.

Plus the reason Samsung recommends qualified shops is because at the end of the day electronics can be dangerous if you are not careful.

Touching a charged high voltage capacitor could give you a nasty shock or even kill you so it's not for everybody.

If i had to complain about something it would be that the repair shop is charging too much for a very simple job.

Silhouette5• 11 years ago

Manufacturers like this sort of argument, but often don't seem to have a lot of actual evidence to support their position. If using a certain kind of custom screw is necessary to save a few mm of thickness and 0.5lb of weight in a new laptop, there's a concrete benefit to the customer. If using a certain kind of custom screw really makes no detectable difference at all to the spec, but the only global supplier of such screws has an exclusive contract with the original manufacturer to supply them so no-one else can get hold of replacement screws without a silly amount of effort, that's just artificially limiting third party repair options. At some point that sort of behaviour justifies regulatory intervention to keep the market competitive.

LordKano5• 11 years ago

The title irks me a little: you already have the right to repair, provided you have enough knowledge.

Some manufacturers are trying to use DMCA to prevent user repairs/modifications.

We had the right to repair but it's in jeopardy.

mc323• 11 years ago

I don't think companies will have a chance to come down on individuals. Where some manufacturers balk is when another company sees an advantage in another company's razor blades business strategy and tries taking advantage of the initial subsidy.

Whether that's valid or not is debatable. But it's not the same as saying an individual cannot repair their gadgets (voiding warranty is expected, but understandable).

kmfrk• 11 years ago

My MacBook Air 2012 shuts down at ~50% battery, and my iPhone 5S at 15%.

Meanwhile, my ancient Thinkpad T500 I owned before the MBA is alive and kicking, and when its battery gave out after three years, I could just order another battery to replace it with. On my MBA, everything is glued together, so I have to pay a couple of hundreds for a 1st og 3rd party shop to replace it instead - with no guarantee what the end result will be.

The future really sucks this way, especially since it’s not a secret that batteries do worse over time - it’s in the friggin’ manuals for Apple’s devices.

Apple’s products are a lot more affordable than they used to, when we criticized them for being for the rich, but now they seem to expect us to replace our products far more frequently than we used to.

—

On a lighter note, the remote for my Pioneer remote broke, and I literally can’t adjust some of my speaker settings without it, and Pioneer have taken weeks to respond to my query. It’d be ridiculous if I had to get a new sound system, and surely losing a remote isn’t some obscure scenario to these people.

buffoon• 11 years ago

Similar in experience here. I bought an X201 a few years ago. I fed it an SSD when they made finincial sense and a new 9-cell battery once a year when the capacity drops to ~60%. I wear out a keyboard every 3 years or so which is a 5 minute job to replace. I can't see myself buying a new machine for at least 3-4 years.

Edit: to add context, my wife's 2013 MBP already needs a new battery but that's glued in and they want to charge me to replace it. It hangs off the charger all day with only short disconnects to move it around. And the space bar only works on one end.

kaolinite• 11 years ago

You can take it into an Apple Store and they will replace the battery and recycle the old one. Cost varies by device but I suspect it'll cost $200 or so. Far less than replacing the device.

This isn't a conspiracy. If you want a thin (and light) device, you have to make compromises. A user replaceable battery on a MacBook will add a slight amount of thickness and weight (same with soldered vs in soldered components). I totally understand if you're not a fan of it, but in that case you probably ought to buy a ThinkPad instead.

skrause2• 11 years ago

Cost varies by device but I suspect it'll cost $200 or so. Far less than replacing the device.

It's $129 (excluding taxes): https://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&geo=Unite...

DiabloD32• 11 years ago

My Late 2012 MBPr 13" has battery problems. Shuts off without warning at about 60%. Still under AppleCare, it will cost me nothing to fix.

Apparently 2012-gen batteries have known issues and die far sooner than they should be.

skrause2• 11 years ago

My counter example anecdote:

I also own a 2012 MacBook Air. In July I brought it to an Apple store just two weeks before my Apple Care support ended. I got a brand new battery for free because the three year old one had "only" 70% capacity left.

On the other hand the battery in the Dell laptop I had before got really bad after just one year, right after the one-year guarantee ended. 14 months after I bought the laptop I had to buy a new battery because the old one only lasted 10 minutes anymore.

Of those two scenarios I really prefer the Apple one. If you don't have Apple Care anymore you still don't have to bring it to a third-party shop. Apple will replace the batteries for $129 for up to 7 year old laptops: https://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&geo=Unite...

gurkendoktor3• 11 years ago

Hardware may become harder and harder to fix. But what about software? If Apple can't be bothered to release security fixes for the iPhone 4, should they be forced to let us flash our own OS on these devices? I'd love to see this happen, but I don't know how realistic it is (unwieldy binary driver blobs come to mind).

sageikosa4• 11 years ago

22 years ago: new toaster oven as wedding gift. 3 months later: oven died; I planned on fixing it as I assumed it was just a simple component failure. In the meantime, we pulled out an old unopened (ergo, in the box-new) toaster my wife had inherited from her grandparents. 22 years later the chrome encased, thick woven cabled toaster needs an occasional emptying out, but otherwise goes on and on. We'll probably pass it on to one of our kids one day.

arbitrage• 11 years ago

toaster oven != toaster

DiabloD32• 11 years ago

toaster oven also != oven. That whole story was very confusing.

sageikosa4• 11 years ago

We only really intended to make toast.

So yes. I cannot heat up bagel-bites in there. Nor can I download apps.

wtbob• 11 years ago

I completely agree that it should be possible to repair things, but this:

Mr. Wiens is also part of a coalition pushing legislation in Minnesota, Massachusetts and New York that would require “digital electronic product” makers to provide owners and independent repair businesses with service information, security updates and replacement parts. This would, he says, increase choices and lower prices.

…is asininely stupid. In what possible world would the cost of writing, illustrating and editing service information and maintaining security updates not increase costs, which will end up being passed on to customers as part of the cost of doing business?

I'd love for equipment to be supported, but I'm not so daft as to think that means it'll be cheaper.

Heck, even mandating repairability can have costs: for one thing, it would have prevented the existence of smartphones.

jellicle• 11 years ago

Any electronics product from a major manufacturer will have provisions made for repairs. Some repair/refurbishing center will have bid for the repair contract, promising to repair FooPhones at $23/unit or whatever. They will get documentation, parts from the manufacturer, and train a bunch of people in FooPhone repair. Then when Timmy drops his brand new FooPhone, the manufacturer can tell him that for just $79.99, he'll get a factory refurbished one in 2-3 weeks.

Those supposed costs you talk about were already incurred. It's just a requirement that the manufacturer not just limit repairs to "factory authorized" repair centers. There's a very similar debate going on about repairability of automobiles.

sp332• 11 years ago

It's a heck of a lot cheaper than trying to secure something without manufacturer support.

thomholwerda• 11 years ago

Mandating the availability of such service information etc. to 3rd parties is entirely normal in the automotive world. Why do we always treat software and technology as some sort of super special case that should be held to different rules and standards?

kej• 11 years ago

In what possible world would the cost of writing, illustrating and editing service information and maintaining security updates not increase costs, which will end up being passed on to customers as part of the cost of doing business?

I think the argument is that the possibly higher upfront costs would come with a lower total cost of ownership, since you could cheaply repair the item instead of needing to replace it.

Dylan168076• 11 years ago

Are you ignoring when repair information already tends to exist?

Security updates should definitely be mandatory, even if cost increases a smidge.

Maybe they could use better security upfront if they don't want as many hotfixes...

tmaly• 11 years ago

we have UL labels, energy star ratings, and various organic labels. Why not have some form of repairable rating system that people can place on electronic products?

at-fates-hands2• 11 years ago

You can also draw an analogy with cars. When I was in college, I drove several 1970's Chevy Trucks. All big block 350 engines. It broke down several times and all I had to do was to visit the local junkyard, go get a part from a junker truck for under $50, and within a few hours, I was able to fix my truck. These days, no way you could that with a truck bought as far back as 1995.

This is the same issue with smartphones. Back in the day, it was easy to get your phone fixed. I ran both a Verizon and a Nextel service shop. The carriers were more than happy to provide training and access to tools and parts. For a mom and pop shop it took several hundred dollars for tools and a good starting point with parts (antennas, replacement screens, keyboards, flips, and main boards). Then you had a list of what they charged for each repair. Parts and costs and a set price for repairs.

The carriers really don't see this as a revenue driver anymore and dropped their service centers. Now you see other "unathorized" shops springing up that handle repairs these days. the problem is the cost of the parts. A display assembly for an LG2 is somewhere in the neighborhood of $75.00. Add in labor and now you're around $125-$150 to get your screen fixed. Not bad, but most people balk at those prices and simply opt to trash their phone and find something on craigslist or ebay.

Until the carriers get back involved, it's an expensive proposition (on both sides of the equation) to do phone repair.

JustSomeNobody2• 11 years ago

Well, for one, there weren't near the EPA regulations back then...

ericabiz• 11 years ago

Counter-point: I co-own a repair shop and we do a ton of phone repairs, including the LG G2. Wholesale cost on the screen for a G2 is $53 right now (not $75), so we do the repair for ~$110. Given the small number of G2's still on the market, we do a fair amount of repairs on them.

Sometimes people will opt to replace them, especially since the G4 is out now and the G2 is 2 generations behind. But most people don't have an upgrade available right now, can't afford to live without a phone, and -- perhaps most importantly -- really like the phone they have, and the data that's stored on it.

People also hate buying on craigslist or eBay because of shoddy quality and scammers -- we've seen a ton of people get scammed with iPhones that are iCloud locked that people bought on craigslist not understanding that you can't remove an iCloud lock from a phone and it's only good for parts.

This has been my experience; we do over 100 phone repairs a week on average from a single store.

chdir3• 11 years ago

A 3rd world country perspective : I've seen an increasing trend of appliances at home that are intentionally designed to make repair difficult. The manufacturer/dealer nexus forces you to depend on paid but poorly trained mechanics that quote ridiculous prices for repairing (essentially using re-furbished parts).

Another case, I've got a water purifier at home that uses a series of filters (sediment, reverse-osmosis, UV radiation, carbon etc.). Due to the quality of water supply, the sediment filter requires manual cleaning every month or two, else everything down the line stands a chance of getting damaged. These filters aren't cheap ($100 every 2 years in a 3rd world country). I find it annoying that the design of these filters is such that it is cumbersome to remove that simple sediment filter. Almost everyone I know ends up paying the service provider for annual maintenance. In reality, a simple design change can make the maintenance super easy.

It's the same story with modern cars, gadgets, washing machines, everything. The money to be made from repair is a whole industry. On the brighter side, the industry is begging to be disrupted.

P.S. I've tried repairing my laptop for broken hinges, displays, heat sink etc. by watching youtube videos & ordering cheap parts from ebay. It's an immensely satisfying feeling when the gadget starts working again. You not only save money & environment, you can justify your engineering degree too :-)

kevin_thibedeau2• 11 years ago

Why not insert another sediment filter stage in front that uses easily serviceable cartridges? Then leave the problematic one empty or in place with longer service intervals. Bonus points if you can find a suitable filter media and rebuild your own cartridges.

chdir3• 11 years ago

That's exactly what I did last year :-) A stand alone sediment filter where I turn two valves to reverse the flow of water. It's not very aesthetic and it takes more space but it does make my life easy.

Regarding your 2nd point, most of the cartridges use a "Welded Housing" and carry the "Dow Filmtec" brand. However there are sellers on ebay that supply housing that can be opened and you can fill your own filter material. I'm a little skeptical on taking this route without an understanding or testing ability of what effect it would have on drinking water. I wonder if there's an off-the-shelf complete water test kit or a lab that would do that for me.

mikepurvis• 11 years ago

I fixed my washing machine's clutch recently, the part was $50, and an appliance part store just a few miles from my house actually had it in stock. The repair took about an hour.

YouTube has definitely been a huge enabler of this. I would have been way less likely to attempt it without the confidence of a step by step video to follow along with.

compactmani• 11 years ago

The author wrote all this and not one word on proprietary software.

JustSomeNobody2• 11 years ago

Yes, this should have been brought up too.

We have gone back to proprietary messaging formats. Home automation, I feel, will always be held back because everyone wants to do their own protocol. The list goes on.

There should be a push for as many open protocols as possible. Differentiate yourselves by what you DO with the open protocols.

begriffs• 11 years ago

Wendell Berry's criteria for technical progress:

1. The new tool should be cheaper than the one it replaces. 2. It should be at least as small in scale as the one it replaces. 3. It should do work that is clearly and demonstrably better than the one it replaces. 4. It should use less energy than the one it replaces. 5. If possible, it should use some form of solar energy, such as that of the body. 6. It should be repairable by a person of ordinary intelligence, provided that he or she has the necessary tools. 7. It should be purchasable and repairable as near to home as possible. 8. It should come from a small, privately-owned shop or store that will take it back for maintenance and repair. 9. It should not replace or disrupt anything good that already exists, and this includes family and community relationships.

mattholtom• 11 years ago

Nice to see it's not just me with this frustration. I had the same problem with my Sammy LNT4061. One capacitor and 5 years later, and it's still going strong.

If only my Kobo aura H2O had the same story. One drop on an airport floor and it's an expensive paperweight. Kobo does not repair, nor sanction repair, nor is it even really possible.

chrisBob• 11 years ago

The "right to repair" really only means that the government shouldn't be allowed to create laws stopping you from making these repairs. You may not technically have that, but I am also not aware of any laws that prevent you from fixing things you own.

As for the actual repairability, this is something that the consumer actually gets to help decide! Unfortunately checking on the repair documentation before purchase is way way down the list. If it is something expensive and it is important to you then by all means, do the research.

I am strongly against mandating that a manufacturer provides you any information or parts that they don't want to. Let the market decide and vote with your own dollars.

Silhouette5• 11 years ago

...I am also not aware of any laws that prevent you from fixing things you own.

There are numerous examples where intellectual property laws have been abused for this purpose.

Token encryption on most physical media means that building anything that can play that media without the appropriate licensing arrangements is illegal in many places, for example, and suitable terms may or may not be offered by the IP rightsholders. That led to dumb things like not being able to buy a DVD/Blu-ray player that would skip the pointless junk at the start and just play the movie, because no-one was legally allowed to make such a machine and compete for business with the ones everyone hates.

It also meant that when my PVR failed, the manufacturer wanted the whole box back and couldn't let me swap out the (apparently fine) hard drive with all the programmes I'd recorded (that data being the entire point of the device) because, they claimed, of some terms in their own agreement that let them manufacturer a device that could play OTA HD content.

Onboard electronic and diagnostic systems in cars is another field where manufacturers are very cosy with their franchised dealerships in a lot of countries and plenty of shady things happen to prevent otherwise perfectly competent local garages from competing for servicing and literal repair business.

Exactly none of these things are in the customer's interests, and exactly none of them have anything to do with whether a third party has the technical capabilities to produce or repair the equipment as required. It's just huge corporations and special interests abusing laws intended for very different purposes to lock up their markets against otherwise normal (and obviously likely to be successful) competition.

mschuster91• 11 years ago

Like with automobiles, where the law mandates fair availability of both manuals and spare parts, the electronics industry should be regulated.

I'd like to see:

1) in case there is any (F)OSS component in the firmware, the device manufacturer or distributor must provide the source of all (F)OSS components and a working build environment, for every firmware version available, as well as the neccessary tools/keys to upload said firmware to the device.

2) Disassembly and reassembly instruction manuals, as well as spare parts, should be provided nondiscriminately to both the manufacturer and any interested party. In case the device is "repaired" by swapping the defective unit with a working one, the manufacturer is exempt.

3) In case proprietary screws, glues etc. are used, the manufacturer must provide the same tools as used by official service at fair conditions.

4) All requirements above must be kept valid over the expected life time of the device, plus two years.

In case a manufacturer or distributor fails to adhere to these rules, the regulatory body must have the power to ban the product from sale until manufacturer or distributor comply.

Silhouette5• 11 years ago

The trouble is, while it's easy to write that kind of wish list, it may simply not be commercially realistic to grant all your wishes. Imposing burdens on producing detailed technical documentation usable by anyone without the manufacturer's own in-house training could be a huge cost, for example, and totally blocking sales because someone objected to an unintentional omission in such documentation would be wildly disproportionate. That's before you even get to issues of trade secrets and the like.

What you can reasonably legislate/regulate is that manufacturers/suppliers can't actively impair third parties who want to provide alternative services and are able to do so to a sensible standard. Just blocking the kinds of legal shenanigans that these giants use to tie up small/local potential competitors would be a good start.

ddingus• 11 years ago

I had a coffee spill on my MacBook Pro. It's $2K machine, and of course, Apple suggested I get a new one! Apple also said, I need to get a different one, because mine is old. Not that old, but just old enough that I should get a new one. Slick, those guys. Real slick. :)

Turns out, I can order keyboard and top case for $150 from Hong Kong.

Got it, and moved all the parts from the old machine to the new one. And it took a long day. Mine is a 2012 model, and it's reasonable to perform many repairs on it, though I did need to source a few odd screwdrivers. Harbor Freight had them in one of those kits with 20 some odd bits.

Honestly, I really like this machine. I could get a new one, but I don't like the new ones as much as I like this one. The repair day was totally worth it.

Growing up, I didn't have a lot. Spend to solve a problem generally was not a viable option. Fix to solve was, and I did a lot of fixing, scrounging, combining, etc... growing up, and I'm really noticing how hostile some products are turning out to be.

Doesn't have to go this way. I know a lot of people are making a lot of money, but that's artificial value.

I hate artificial value.

If people are going to make lots of money, let them! Heck, any of us here would gladly join them, or do our own thing to get our share too. The more the merrier.

But let's make damn sure that money is made on real value, not artificial value, or we all will be losing out.

carapace• 11 years ago

"We Need the Right to Repair Our Gadgets"

Holy Space Pope! Isn't that pretty much exactly what started RMS on the Free Source mission!? He wanted to repair [the code in] his printer.

We Need the Right to Repair Our Gadgets

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