“Thank You” in Hindi and English Mean Very Different Things

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/thank-you-culture-india-america/395069/?single_page=true

by darkroasted • 11 years ago

162 151 11 years ago

As an American, I've sometimes been bothered by the use of thank you. It is fine as a pleasantry at a restaurant. But it always felt odd coming from a boss or from the company CEO. I think to myself, "I didn't do this piece of work as a favor to you, I didn't because you are paying me and you told me to do it." It is interesting to read that this view is more common in other cultures. I also dislike putting "thank you" in an email, before they have agreed to do the favor or task. It feels very presumptuous. Am I crazy or do other people feel the same way.

ScottBurson• 11 years ago

I had a manager who made a practice of thanking people when they did things he had asked them to. I hadn't seen it done that assiduously before, and I rather got to like it. I try to do the same now, when appropriate.

I agree, though, that pre-thanking someone before they've done what you ask is presumptuous.

mgkimsal• 11 years ago

That pre-thank may be meant as "thank you for your attention to this matter" vs "thank you for doing the work".

paulsutter3• 11 years ago

Thanking is not used to acknowledge a favor, thanking expresses gratitude. It means your boss appreciates your effort, that he doesn't consider you a robot who does work solely for the money. Maybe he thinks you put a little bit of yourself into the work.

seszett• 11 years ago

he doesn't consider you a robot who does work solely for the money.

Looks like he might be wrong though.

zhte415• 11 years ago

The single best compliment I had from a senior manager after emailing the findings of quite an arduous 2-month project early in my career was a one word email:

"Good."

Put me on cloud nine.

I think it depends on who's doing the talking. Saying thanks more bring inflation to the term, leading to making up more terms when we really mean thanks.

chrisra• 11 years ago

It's nice to find a higher purpose in your work. If you are paid $10 and work worth $15, you're giving of yourself for others. Work is such a big part of life, it is good to go the extra mile and serve others while you're there. Sure, you're paid for it, but your motivation can become "I'm doing this because I want my boss and the customer to have a better life."

ljak• 11 years ago

a modern boss is tolerant, he behaves like a colleague of ours, sharing dirty jokes, inviting us for a drink, openly displaying his weaknesses, admitting that he is “merely human like us”. He is deeply offended if we remind him that he is our boss – however, it is this very rejection of explicit authority that guarantees his de facto power.
This is why the first gesture of liberation is to force the master to act as one: our only defence is to reject his “warm human” approach and to insist that he should treat us with cold distance. We live in weird times in which we are compelled to behave as if we are free, so that the unsayable is not our freedom but the very fact of our servitude.

- Slavoj Žižek

MacsHeadroom• 11 years ago

Imagine the distance thanking someone for sex would put between you. Like the scenario you gave, it implies the other person was doing you a favor- which also implies the act wasn't totally genuine.

I grew up in North America. But I rarely thank anyone. I think I've thanked people in a work setting maybe twice in my entire career- and only because the other party was doing me a favour.

Retra2• 11 years ago

I also dislike putting "thank you" in an email, before they have agreed to do the favor or task. It feels very presumptuous.

You're thanking someone for taking the time to read your email, not for completing some other task. You can say "thank you for your time" or "thank you for your consideration" if that makes more sense.

bbgm• 11 years ago

This is partly in line with my experiences. It's more subtle than it comes across in the article. I've thanked servers, taxi drivers, and others, but don't recall thanking a bus driver.

I have thanked my parents and they've never had issues. However, in general thanking elders is considered bad form, but asking them or appreciating their blessing isn't. Is that very different?

laex• 11 years ago

Interesting. It's quite common in Australia to thank the bus drivers.

NeutronBoy• 11 years ago

Yeah it might just be a habit, but I say thank-you to heaps of 'service' workers - just a simple 'Thanks mate' when I get off the bus, or get my coffee, etc. Why wouldn't you? I mean, I know it's their job, but you can still be polite about it.

msie• 11 years ago

As people say (more eloquently) in the comments, he's just wrong assuming that people in America say "Thank You" just to end a transaction. But it makes for a better narrative, doesn't it?

jonathonf• 11 years ago

In other news, different cultures are different.

hliyan2• 11 years ago

There's a similar problem with my native language[1] and "sorry". The standard word, samaavenna literally means "forgive me". As a former British Colony (Sri Lanka) most of us have got used to the English words -- even non-English speakers will automatically say "sorry" or "thank you".

But once "thank you" is said, most people awkwardly respond with "ah", because there's no phrase in the language for "you're welcome".

Come to think of it, we don't even have a universal second person (a "you"). You need to know the social standing of the person before you can address him/her!

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_language

linuxydave• 11 years ago

But once "thank you" is said, most people awkwardly respond with "ah", because there's no phrase in the language for "you're welcome".

In London I've noticed that instead of saying, "you're welcome" people prefer to say "no worries", which is far more casual. I don't know why that phrase started to be used but if I had to give a guess I'd say that it was out of awkwardness because there wasn't a less formal/personal response to use.

hliyan2• 11 years ago

I've heard Australians say "no worries" (often with a trailing "mate") a lot. I always thought it originated there.

1_player• 11 years ago

There are different degrees of gratitude you're expressing with a "thank you":

- Thanking for an ordinary action, i.e. after buying something at a shop: no answer.

- Thanking for something that didn't cost me very much, i.e. lending £20 to a friend: I usually answer with "no worries (mate)".

- Thanking for something that cost me in some way (time, money, effort), i.e. helping pushing a stranger's car on the street: "You're welcome".

claudius• 11 years ago

But once "thank you" is said, most people awkwardly respond with "ah", because there's no phrase in the language for "you're welcome".

This reminds me of my neighbour’s doormat (in Germany). As most doormats, it has a text on it - usually that’s something like "Willkommen" (Welcome) or somesuch. This particular doormat says "You’re welcome!", continuously irritating my English-native friend when walking past it.

andrey-p• 11 years ago

I live in the UK, and whenever I travel back to Bulgaria, I get told off for saying "sorry" and "thank you" all the time.

In Bulgarian, the word for "thank you" is "благодаря" ("blagodarya") but people often fall back to a simple "мерси" ("merci" - the French word, yes) for transactional thank-yous.

I'm not really sure whether that's because "благодаря" is reserved for sincere, heartfelt thanksgiving or because the word is just too long to say very often.

bolaft• 11 years ago

("merci" - the French word, yes)

Do you know why?

vlasev2• 11 years ago

French had a large influence on Bulgarian. A lot of bulgarian words are borrowed from French.

vlasev2• 11 years ago

I think it's mostly because it's so long and somewhat convoluted. "Благодаря" has 4 syllables while "мерси" only has 2. It's similar to saying "thanks" instead of "thank you" but that comparison is lost because the two words in Bulgarian are so different.

ajuc2• 11 years ago

In Polish before 90s the French "pardon" was used for casual "I'm sorry" (for example when you bump into someone) as opposed to native (and more intense) "przepraszam" used when you really mean it.

Since 90s (and all the American movies) most people switched to English "sorry" instead of the French "pardon" for casual "I'm sorry". The original "przepraszam" is still mostly used for more meaningful apologies. And "pardon" is still there if you want to sound old-style casual.

And yes, part of it is - "przepraszam" is longer and sounds more "dignified". The thinking goes "if you're really sorry you should work for it".

scotty79• 11 years ago

Funny thing happened to me when I came back to Poland from prolong stay in Italy.

Italy seemed a lot denser to me so I bumped into people a lot. I quickly got habituated to say "scusi" which is Italian quick apology.

There isn't really good formal quick apology in Poland. Pardon or sorry sounds disrespectful if you are apologizing to older person. You need to go with full "przepraszam".

As a Pole you probably know where I'm going with all this...

When I came back to Poland and bumped into older lady in the shop I quickly said "sku..!...przepraszam"

In polish "sku.." is how some of the expletives start.

paulsutter3• 11 years ago

I say thank you often, and every single time it's because I feel gratitude. This guy is doing it wrong.

After moving to America, it took me several years to say thanks to people without actually meaning it. Putting “thank you” on the tip of my tongue, ready to escape at a moment’s notice, rather than extracting it from the depths of my heart, was one of the hardest language lessons I had to learn in the United States.

ajuc2• 11 years ago

You feel gratitude when you receive change from the shop clerk and say "thanks, bye"?

I guess the word "gratitude" is routinely badly translated, too, in that case.

learnstats23• 11 years ago

You feel gratitude when you receive change from the shop clerk and say "thanks, bye"?

I know that many people are saying this robotically, but I personally feel genuinely grateful that the shop clerk has chosen to do this, and that they typically do a good job - providing me with a good level of service that greatly benefits me.

I recognise that it is not a fun job and that clerks often have to suffer poor conditions and that if I had to do that job, I would be mind-numbed with boredom.

So, I look the shop clerk in the eye and give my thanks fully and properly. It's obvious that it's appreciated and it's obvious that few other people are taking any time to genuinely thank shop clerks.

kissickas• 11 years ago

Not OP but I feel gratitude towards them when they're able to do the math quickly, act like they have a purpose at work and smile or make eye contact at some point. Plenty of cashiers don't pass this bar and don't get a "thank you."

I appreciate a friendly and frictionless transaction /because/ it fails to happen so often.

paulsutter3• 11 years ago

Every time I say thanks, I mean it.

My first job was selling cokes at football games when I was 12. One dollar for each tray I sold, and I'd carry it to the top of the stands. Yeah I'm grateful when someone serves me.

bane3• 11 years ago

Yes. I also try to wish them to have a good day, genuinely.

bane3• 11 years ago

I completely agree. I was raised to say "please" and "thank you", not because it's makes me look good, but because it's showing appreciation, gratitude and empathy for the other person's work on your behalf. Politeness is about empathy, not self-aggrandizing.

I've been told more than once that just being polite to a cashier or a waiter has turned bad days they were having around. Treating other people decently is its own reward.

jmadsen5• 11 years ago

Perhaps he doesn't understand that "thank you" is usually meant as a simple, polite acknowledgement. A heartfelt expression of gratitude in English is said not with a stock phrase, but by stopping, looking at the person, and explaining your gratitude to them.

He is confusing our stock phrase with something that is an entirely different concept.

jmadsen5• 11 years ago

If I may extend my own post for a moment, this is a common problem of trying to translate words & phrases directly.

For example, most people know that "Arigato" is Japanese for "Thank you". Except that's really wrong. Arigato is inappropriate in most cases, and "Sumasen" or variations should be used. But if you tried to translate them via the dictionary, you'd be quite confused as arigato comes from "thank" and su(mi)masen from "to finish".

You can't just say "This equals this" when you work in another language or culture. You have to learn the native meaning itself.

cactusface2• 11 years ago

Wait a minute, sumimasen only means thank-you when it's a thanks plus a kind of apology for making someone go to some trouble. Some version of doumo arigato gozaimasu is really fine in most other situations!

http://www.tofugu.com/2013/10/24/sorry-for-saying-thank-you-...

http://www.livinglanguage.com/blog/2013/06/20/how-to-say-tha...

alienchow2• 11 years ago

May I know your source for this?

Arigatou pretty much just means "Thank you".

Arigatou - "Thank you" Sumimasen - "Excuse me" or a milder version of "sorry" Gomennasai - "Sorry"

If I help my Japanese roommate grab some stuff from the convenience store, he says arigatou. If he wants to really be polite he could add on "suman, meiwaku kaketa." (sorry for troubling you)

I'm not arguing against the fact that we shouldn't do literal translations between cultures, but more that you're giving misleading ideas on Japanese language.

If someone holds the door for you, or brings you a napkin, you can pretty much just say "arigatou". They will most probably just reply, "iie".

Source: JLPT N1 and member of a Japanese Teamspeak game clan for 7 years now.

glandium2• 11 years ago

Sumasen is likely regional. I've never heard it said, but it has the same root as sumimasen. In spoken "standard" japanese, you'll hear "sumimasen" or "suimasen", which is a common deformation because it's easier to pronounce. And indeed, its root is "to finish something" (済む), while its meaning is large, including "Sorry" and "Thank you" in english.

Arigatou, literally, means "difficult to be/have" (有り難う (arigatou) is an euphonic change (onbin/音便) of 有り難い (arigatai; ari/aru: be/have...; ~gatai: difficult), which translated like this is just completely weird, but so is literal translation.

Arigatou is fine in many more cases than you claim it to be, but yes, Sumimasen can be appropriate in many cases where you would say "Thank you" in english.

jpatokal2• 11 years ago

Per the article, he now understands that perfectly well, it just took him a while to get used to it.

ekianjo• 11 years ago

I don't understand the big insight that's supposed to be in this article. About every country uses "thank you" in a different way. Like what, they discovered cultural differences?

mythealias• 11 years ago

Similar to the cultural difference when Russians do not smile [1].

[1] http://www.russianlife.com/blog/why-dont-russians-smile/

dudul2• 11 years ago

“Thank you for coming to my home” actually meant, “It’s time for you to get out of my house.”

Seriously? Find new friends. When I thank people after hosting an event I do mean to thank them for choosing to spend their time with me. I feel like this post is blently dishonest and caricaturing just to tell a nice story.

jpatokal2• 11 years ago

I think you're reading a bit too much into that. If you're at a social event, when do you hear "Thank you so much for coming" from the host? Usually when you're leaving, or as the writer says, when it's time for you to leave.

dudul2• 11 years ago

But usually the host won't say that until the guests have made it clear that they are on their way out.

- "Honey, we should probably go" - "Well, thank you both for coming"

I have never attended a social event where the host would say "thank you for coming, see you soon" out of the blue.

fredley• 11 years ago

Taught this kind of stuff in India for a while for a company providing phone support. It's not just "thank you", it's also "please" and "sorry" - both are considered rude/inappropriate outside of certain settings. There's a huge difference in etiquette that is a cause of frustration on phone calls (particularly for support). Both sides are (usually) trying to be polite, but perceive the other side as being very rude. This is one of the main reasons (of about a half a dozen) that cause support calls to go sour.

StavrosK2• 11 years ago

In Greece, saying "please" can sound condescending. You pretty much want to avoid saying please, and politeness comes from the phrasing. "Can you bring me a glass of water" is the polite version of "bring me a glass of water", although the latter is also usually made polite by adding "re" (to friends) or adding "a bit" ("bring me a glass of water for a bit", it doesn't translate well).

Saying "please" to anyone you're even slightly familiar with would be at least weird, and in many cases condescending and offputting.

"Thanks" is somewhere between the US and India, where you don't thank everyone all the time, but do thank people who've done you a favor, or in service settings, people who have been good to you (good servers/shopkeepers/etc).

harperlee• 11 years ago

In spain we have a mix of both; although it is very normal to say it formulaically to e.g. a shop clerk, we are also very often very direct and don't use it, just using tone or phrasing - and foreigners (including spanish-speaking ones) are usually shocked by how rude we seem to be.

StavrosK2• 11 years ago

I've found that Greek translates pretty much exactly to Spanish (culturally and linguistically), so I just say "puedes traerme <x>" or, at most, "quisiera un <x>".

asgard1024• 11 years ago

This reminds of what David Graeber said about debt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs

He mentions that historically, cultures tried to keep people indebted to each other, and not settle the debt as is in fashion now. The reason was to keep people doing favors to each other.

makeitsuckless• 11 years ago

Although not as extreme as in this example, the American custom of saying "thank you" and "please" all the time is considered excessive to the point of being insultingly trite by many cultures.

And I regularly hear Americans complain about people from other cultures being impolite because they don't say "thank you" or "please" all the time.

AFAIK in most cultures these kind of phrases are generally more formal and tend to signal a certain distance that in the wrong context can be interpreted as condescending.

darklajid• 11 years ago

Over here in Germany we even had an optional 'Cultural differences' workshop you could participate in, which discussed things - both for Germans and for people from the US, the presenter was from the US - that might seem awkward at first.

The ~social fillwords~ were on the list. Lots of thank you / you're welcome plus the really irritating 'How are you?' variations.

Wouldn't you find these differences between any culture though? Is Hindi/Indian vs. English/US especially surprising?

toothbrush• 11 years ago

Lots of ... irritating 'How are you?' variations.

Pity that. I frequently ask people "how are you" at the beginning of a conversation, and it's very often ignored on the assumption that i'm using a formula, but i am usually genuinely curious ask to what's up, trying to get them to say something about themselves since the last time we spoke. Pity this idiom has suffered inflation, perhaps i should think of another to replace it.

Retra2• 11 years ago

I hate it when people ask "how are you." Because I don't want to drop whatever I'm thinking about and start thinking about what you've asked, which is something that doesn't require any urgent attention.

It's like asking someone to retie their shoes every time you talk to them. So you'll get "I'm fine" because the question is meant to be dismissed quickly, not dwelled upon.

codeN• 11 years ago

Come to think of it, in India I have almost never really "thanked" many among my family, but have done it for almost everybody else, and often I have found a compliment works in places where a thanks might seem too formal. Saying "I had an amazing time at your place and will miss the food" carries the sense of gratitude without the sense of formality in India.

nitred• 11 years ago

I'm from India and I completely get what the author is saying, but why is this article on 'Hacker News'?

saiprashanth932• 11 years ago

Hacker News, in spite of the name which implies only content related to programming does have article does are appealing to sensible and curious souls.

DanAndersen• 11 years ago

When I was an English teacher in China, I noticed something similar. Saying "thank you" to friends I made there resulted in a look of confusion, being taken aback, and not quite knowing how to respond. Over time I noticed a pattern and concluded that the interpretation was that friends shouldn't need to say thanks to each other, and saying it turned interaction into something more formal and less friendly.

littletimmy2• 11 years ago

As a non-American, this was one of the biggest culture shocks I faced. On the surface, relationships in the US seem very transactional (not making the judgment that they are really transactional). For example, in the US a son would thank his parents for paying his college tuition. In my culture, this would be insulting because it would suggest being distant from family, in the sense that the son ought to believe his parents wealth is his also, and later willingly contribute his earnings when his parents need anything. It is a difference in the degree to which individualism is the norm.

Reminds of the book "Debt" by David Graeber. He talks about how many cultures have systems where everyone is indebted to their family and community, and this debt is never to be settled. To want to settle a debt (or to even calculate it) would indicate that a relationship has ended. So it is a huge culture shock to see the degree to which calculation plays a part in US relationships (like Sheryl Sandberg precisely splitting domestic chores with her husband 50:50).

I have a feeling that the non-American system is better because it fosters closer family ties, but that might just be because that's the system I'm familiar with.

seraph787• 11 years ago

Better for what? If you mean family sure. If you mean for shared burden probably not.

bane3• 11 years ago

I think this is an interesting idea. Cultures are often categorized as "individualistic" or "shame-based"...but I wonder if "debt-based" might be a good descriptor for many cultures.

There's definitely a range of individualism in the U.S. as well, some people take it to a kind of local maximum, some people just try to find workable balances. When my wife first immigrated here from South Korea, she struggled to characterize "America" in simple, digestible differences so that she could work within the society. No a couple decades later, she's developed a more nuanced view, and understands that it's very hard to say "Americans do x" without going into a higher level of abstraction like "some Americans do x" when explaining something to her friends.

klodolph• 11 years ago

You may be reading a lot of value into this distinction. To me, as an American, equality in a peer relationship is important but bookkeeping and debt is destructive. The 50:50 split is just an ongoing division of labor, it is explicitly NOT debt because it never accumulates. Any "thank you" is an acknowledgment of gratitude or merely a polite exit to a conversation one doesn't want to continue. The debt that children have to their parents is to be paid to the next generation.

It's another one of those cultural quirks that seems more telling than it actually is. For example, because Russians don't smile to strangers, they're cold and unfriendly. Or because Americans do smile to strangers, we're untrustworthy and insincere.

The reason we think it's so big is because we're translating the literal contents (smile, "thank you") but ending up with a completely different meaning or set of pragmatics. and then we miss the ability to use set phrases in our native language. Just like you can say "pleased to meet you" in Enhlish, but you can't say "よろしくお願いします".

Edit: to clarify, cultures are different and language reflects that, but I think a lot of set phrases reflect history more than they reflect living culture.

billjings• 11 years ago

Upthread someone mentions Graeber's _Debt_ book. You might find it interesting. It has a whole discussion on exactly these set of phrases. They were not always with us, and it's interesting to see when and why they came into common usage. In a large part it was out of the need to have economic transactions with strangers, and the need to not be tied up so tightly with our families.

Dowwie• 11 years ago

Better? That depends on what socioeconomic sphere you're in. This kind of familial dependency protects entrenched interests. If you don't care about upward mobility and social progress, it may suit you.

It has produced some interesting outcomes over history:

Historically, the fate of family members in Russia was deeply intertwined. With this government-sponsored arrangement, family members of "revolutionaries" would be punished. This was an effective device of the tsars for a long time. Eventually, though, they enforced familial punishment with the wrong family and created a formidable adversary -- V.I. Lenin. Creating Lenin The Revolutionary in a deeply disgruntled society was the tipping point.

geon• 11 years ago

I have a feeling that the non-American system is better because it fosters closer family ties

There is just no coorelation. The american "thank you" is simply not translatable to idiomatic hindi.

An american is not diluting the importance of gratitude by saying thanks to the bus driver.

Just as an indian is not an ungrateful bastard for not saying thanks to his parents.

marktangotango• 11 years ago

> In my culture, this would be insulting because it would suggest being distant from family, in the sense that the son ought to believe his parents wealth is his also, and later willingly contribute his earnings when his parents need anything. It is a difference in the degree to which individualism is the norm.

This is very interesting, and brings to mind something I've been struggling with recently (I'm USA-ian by the way). As a father I want to instill in my children a sense of self reliance, a sense that they can go into the world and make their own way, and be successful, without my help. In my world view, that is the best gift I can give them.

I personally come from a background of rural poverty, my parents weren't able to help me at all financially, but growing up working shoulder to shoulder with my father on the (meager) family farm taught me the value of hard work and thrift. Which I think have served me well (I am clearly biased).

So, from that angle, I don't want my children to see my wealth as their wealth, or my success as their success. I would like them to view my success as the result of hard work and perseverance, and an example of what they can achieve, indeed, they can achieve more.

I post this merely as an example of my thought process, which is evolving. I can see how there is value in what you relate here. So thanks to you in a non-distancing sense :)

littletimmy2• 11 years ago

Hah, you're welcome. This is really interesting because it raises the question: what role does affluence have to play in all of this?

In the case of my country, people usually aren't rich enough to save for retirement, nor are starting salaries high enough for young adults to stake out on their own. So parents help their kids right up to the point they can no longer work, and then kids take over to provide for the family.

In case of you being affluent (as in with a completely well-funded retirement), I can totally see why you'd want your kids to not see your wealth as theirs. It might ruin their incentives to be productive citizens.

So, does affluence naturally lead to a weakening of strong family ties? Dunno.

ska• 11 years ago

These views both have value, and both can be overplayed.

Hopefully you can also instill in your children an understanding that there is always some luck involved also, and help them avoid that pernicious failure to understand that because someone is not successful does not mean you can conclude they just have not worked hard enough.

notNow3• 11 years ago

I advise to look out for the opposite perspective or angle to this that it might be viewed as a form of abuse, unnecessary harshness or worse meagerness.

Teaching your kids survival skills esp. males and how to be strong in life is very crucial and "tough love" can sometimes yield good results but you don't wanna to break the bond or the good relationship you have between you and your kids in the process.

It is all about their wellbeing and fostering and nurturing this relationship after all, isn't it or am I mistaken?

gumby• 11 years ago

This is very interesting, and brings to mind something I've been struggling with recently (I'm USA-ian by the way). As a father I want to instill in my children a sense of self reliance, a sense that they can go into the world and make their own way, and be successful, without my help. In my world view, that is the best gift I can give them.

Me too. I have spent more than 1/2 my life in the US, though I have one Indian parent and one parent from a culture where families have, for lack of a better term, "collective success" (as you put it well, "my wealth as their wealth, or my success as their success.")

But I moved out at 16 and feel that my life now, decades later, is the life _I_ made. And my son is perfectly happy knowing that he won't inherit a penny (I find even the concept of "estate planning" grotesque and anti-republican).

None of this should imply I am any sort of Randian libertarian. I was incredibly lucky to be born in a wealthy country not at war, to have been able to go through a excellent school systems, and to have had a stable family and to have spent most of my working life in western democracies. It certainly has bred an orientation to be of benefit to society and to support my own child to be self reliant and also to be, I hope, a net contributor to society as well.

But the atavistic desire to emphasize obligations within a family is to me a sign of a weakness in a society.

fallinghawks• 11 years ago

I don't want my children to see my wealth as their wealth, or my success as their success

I think that's a good view. I had Chinese immigrant parents who did pretty well financially. They used money as a means of control: they gave me an extremely meager allowance but said if I ever wanted something, I should just ask. Meaning I could have it only if they also approved of it. This resulted in me getting jobs as soon as possible.

gutnor• 11 years ago

You missed the bit:

That day, I made the mistake of telling him, in English, “Thank you for inviting me” before leaving his house, realizing the import of my words only after they had left my mouth. He didn’t respond, but I saw his expression turn sour. He was filled with disgust. I couldn’t even apologize for thanking him. The damage was done.

So of course, implicit debt and duty is great because of the closer ties. On the other hand, you run into the risk of hurting people and breaking those ties quite easily by simply talking about it.

That's not a scenario that would happen by mistake in ordinary condition, only when foreign influence is put into the mix. In a multi-cultural context, the American way seems a bit more robust to mistake.

rayiner• 11 years ago

My wife is American and I'm Bangladeshi, and we definitely see the differences you're talking about in our relationships with our families. Especially because we have crazy work/commute schedules and also a toddler, so we end up leaning heavily on our mothers for childcare.

I don't think I agree with your conclusion about "closer family ties." My mother in law is definitely very transactional, while my mother isn't, but my mother will also build up resentment when we exceed her unstated boundaries that will manifest into a fight months later.

Obviously a lot of that is just the particular personalities involved, but I would not be surprised if there was a general tendency for Americans to negotiate more up-front to avoid conflict later.

I think the cultural difference comes particularly to a head in the Sheryl Sandberg example. Let's face it--the typical Indian/Bangladeshi solution to negotiating chores 50:50 with your spouse is for the woman to do much more of the domestic work and sacrifice her career for her husband's. That's common everywhere, of course, but I think it's a particularly difficult problem to solve if you look down on calculating inter-spousal debt.

dharmach• 11 years ago

Some languages are more explicit and formal compared to others for historical reasons. That's why so many things get lost in translation.

tootie• 11 years ago

My in-laws are from a culture that is one of the heaviest in terms of familial obligation. Parental or elder sibling authority is strictly observed. Once they relocated to the US, it only took a few years for them to realize they could tell their ornery older relatives to fuck off and not become social pariahs. They love America and want their kids to totally free of dependence on them.

ManFromUranus2• 11 years ago

What if that system also fosters corruption and nepotism? Need to hire somebody for a job? family first (you owe them remember?), tender a contract (family first) the list goes on. You are a public servant, someone comes to your office to get you to do the job that you were hired to do, but they're not your family, you don't owe them anything... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India

Yeah that system is better because it fosters closer family ties.

novaleaf• 11 years ago

a bit too snarky of a comment, but interesting tie in to corruption! I didn't think about that, but it does seem plausible.

sumedh3• 11 years ago

What if that system also fosters corruption and nepotism?

It actually does. Just look at the well known public companies in India (Reliance, Infosys, Wipro and many others). You will always see the son or some other relative of the chairman/CEO directly gets hired as a VP or a director.

Lawtonfogle2• 11 years ago

And the opposite does not? It makes calling in the debt owed much more discrete, which means the corruption is more conscious, but the transactional nature would foster corruption among those who are of higher power instead of those who are family.

In the culture grandparent comment describe, if someone comes into my office, any favoritism will be based on their being close to my family.

In a culture without that, if someone comes into my office, any favoritism will be based on their ability to offer me favoritism.

If anything, our system is worse because favoritism among the powerful is a worse problem that favoritism among families and friends.

ta119a08• 11 years ago

I have a feeling that the non-American system is better because it fosters closer family ties, but that might just be because that's the system I'm familiar with.

Fostering closer family ties has good sides and bad sides.

Individuals from a toxic family background benefit from being able to keep their family at arm's length or farther, which isn't as acceptable in cultures that so strongly and universally emphasize family loyalty. Not all parents are good parents!

SilasX• 11 years ago

That was implicit model I used growing up, until learned people use "thank you" differently. I was reluctant to thank anyone for doing what I thought was already their obligation -- it didn't make sense. And likewise, I would be confused at receiving thanks for what I thought was my job.

(Naturally, in either case, it would make sense if the thanked did something that went above-and-beyond.)

panglott• 11 years ago

On some level there's a tradeoff between individual autonomy and social interdependence, and different cultures fall at different places on the continuum between them.

Clearly the U.S. is at one extreme. But I don't know that one is "better": there are different benefits and costs. In the U.S. people have huge amounts of personal freedom and autonomy, but are more likely to live thousands of miles away from their friends and family, and struggle with loneliness. But there are different costs when you erode individual autonomy.

z02d• 11 years ago

I asked some friends from Indian (Jaipur, Pune, Delhi) and they do not confirm this.

saiprashanth932• 11 years ago

It is not exactly a hard and fast rule, its more like a behavioral pattern where you don't thank the people you are really close to for little things. If you say it, you generally say it like you mean it and not for everyday things.

nashashmi• 11 years ago

Maybe because he did not explain it simply and purely. You do not "thank" people who are close to you; helping and favors should simply be a common practice.

"Thank you" is said to people who you cannot return the favor to, or do not expect them from them any sort of kindness.

theandrewbailey• 11 years ago

India has dozens (hundreds?) of constituent cultures.

sumedh3• 11 years ago

Indian here, maybe they are very rich who live by different rules. The majority of India will agree with the article.

mtmr• 11 years ago

This is not specific to Hindi speaking people. Even here in South India, Saying you Thank you is usually considered an insult as mentioned in the article.

chatwinra• 11 years ago

As an English speaker, I agree with others above that this article misses a huge point about our language.

Yes we use thank you a lot, even for some things people may consider 'trite'. I'm from the UK so I use it a HELL of a lot.

But I want to call out 2 points based on this:

1. As mentioned above, just thanking someone can turn their day around, and most times I feel rude if I do not say it (that is my cultural upbringing).

2. For me/the English culture, it is a multi-faceted word. It can be used in everyday scenarios, or it can be used in deeply emotional ones.

The article doesn't seem to acknowledge this, so perhaps the OP hasn't truly grasped the intricacies of the language.

As an aside, I did find the information about the attitude towards 'thanks' in Hindi really interesting. Thanks!*

*sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

haphazardeous2• 11 years ago

Are you being slightly passive-aggressive? That's what I understand if I see "Thanks" instead of "Many thanks!"

joshyeager• 11 years ago

You see "Thanks" as passive-aggressive? To me it reads as a very straightforward statement that communicates a moderate level of real gratitude.

Crito• 11 years ago

"That's what I understand if I see "Thanks" instead of "Many thanks!""

That probably says more about you, or the particular dialect of your region, than him. "Many thanks" is not the predominate phrase for expressing thanks anywhere in that I have been in the continental US.

"Thanks" is only passive aggressive when in a context that makes that clear. It is most often used sincerely. That word alone is never "the tell" for insincerity; something else about the situation is.

haphazardeous2• 11 years ago

This was a joke guys.

logfromblammo• 11 years ago

I have also heard discussions on the rise of the double thank-you in American English. For a long while, the acknowledgement response to a "thank you" was "you're welcome". But during the last century, it has become more common to respond to a "thank you" with a "thank you".

Usually, in a retail setting, this isn't exactly an even exchange. The business says to the customer "thank you [for your business]" and the customer says to the actual person wearing the employee mantle "thank you [for serving me]". One does not thank an ATM or vending machine, but it is appropriate to thank a human bank teller or retail clerk. We know that the employee has no personal reason to thank us for our business, and we also know that the cash we pay at the register is thanks enough for the corporate body. So we thank the person in front of us.

Implicit in all those little, minor thanks is the acknowledgement that the recipient has the capacity to appreciate gratitude, however minor it may be, and may not get it as often as it is deserved.

This is slightly related to the peer-to-peer double thank you. In that case, each party is thanking the other for their participation in a transaction that yields a mutual benefit. A talk-show host thanks an interviewee for filling airtime on the program, and the guest thanks the host for the use of their distribution platform, or perhaps for the opportunity to show off their temporary fame to their friends. A person selling his car thanks the buyer for trading up from used car to cash, and the buyer thanks the seller for trading up from cash to used car.

This has become so prevalent that saying "you're welcome" in response to a "thank you" now implies that the act was altruistic, which may make those averse to bragging slightly uncomfortable. That would result in a more deprecating acknowledgement, such as "it wasn't any trouble" or "no problem" or "I'm just happy to help".

It seems that the article is saying that in India, a "thank you" is more akin to "this concludes our business for today; please send me your invoice, so that I may settle our accounts". That does not translate to the typical American use of "thank you". It does also translate to that, sometimes, but those uses are marked by intonation and context.

whoopdedo• 11 years ago

One does not thank an ATM...

Ever use an ATM with voice prompts? It's hard not to talk back to a machine that's talking to you.

It seems to me that the service-oriented "thank you" is more about expressing satisfaction than gratitude. It's a way of communicating that you have no complaints about the service without suggesting that there could have been anything to complain about. When a person doesn't say "thank you" it implies they were unhappy with the transaction and that they may be less likely to want to do business with you again.

notNow3• 11 years ago

My two cents:

Usually, acting very polite and formal in informal settings could send the wrong message to people around you from certain cultures as it would be interpreted as the speaker establishing barriers between him/her and the rest and that he/she views them as strangers not as friends which is totally off-putting.

The problem manifests actually in formal settings where some cultures don't have these "lubricants" such as "thanks, please ..etc" in place to ease everyday situations. So, when you expect a simple "thank you" like for helping someone on the street as a small gesture of gratitude towards you and you don't get it, you don't really know exactly if they're being deliberately rude to you and sending their message very clear or they're just being "natural" and "easygoing" i.e. being themselves.

You can't really tell and it's just a reckless form of gambling to take offense at their acts. So, I just give them the benefit of the doubt and assume no malice intended.

Lastly and I speak only from my observations and experiences, some Indians are "obtuse" for the lack of a better word and it seems that most of the social cues that you expect to be interpreted very easily by everyone are completely lost on them but from what I understand now, these people usually come from rural areas and lower socio-economic backgrounds.

So, you basically should not really put too much thought into their processes. That's how they've been raised and therefore are products of their environment. Just move on!

chrisBob2• 11 years ago

In the military you will often hear "Don't thank me. The government thanks me twice a month." So there are parts of american culture where these pleasantries are less common.

icebraining8• 11 years ago

Twice a month? I assume that's the paycheck, but seems like a weird schedule.

chrisBob2• 11 years ago

I think the standard was to be paid on the 1st and the 15th, but you could opt for one monthly pay check if you had trouble saving for rent with the twice a month schedule.

I never really thought about it. Are weekly or monthly that much more common?

mfenniak• 11 years ago

Semi-monthly paydays for people on salary are pretty common. I have, in fact, never worked at a job that doesn't pay according to that schedule (in Canada).

notNow3• 11 years ago

Just to add something, in our culture Egyptian that is, we mostly behave and act like Americans when it comes to these forms of courtesy.

We expect people to exchange (Shukran: Thanks), (Afwan: Welcome), (Lao samahet: please) and so on and so forth in these situations and the lack of them in certain contexts could be interpreted by some folks in certain cases as rudeness and hostility shown toward them.

However, we don't take it to the extreme like Americans would usually do and just insert these courteous words in every sentence or interaction as it might be interpreted as a form of snobbery (distancing yourself from people around you) or fake politeness which is not very tasteful.

Anyway, I just got used to the American way when I'm around Americans and honestly if it were to me, I would take excessive courtesy over the lack thereof or plain rudeness any given day but that's just me.

kalari• 11 years ago

India is a more hierarchical society in general, and one doesn't feel the need to thank the servile class for services rendered. Outside family and close circle of friends, a "thank you" can lubricate social interactions.

tcfunk• 11 years ago

Something I haven't seen anyone bring up is the way that "thank you" or "sorry" are delivered.

I'm not familiar enough with other languages to know if they have similar variances in speech, but in english you can very much change the meaning of your message with the tone of your voice or your rate of speech.

Nearly any phrase can come off as condescending given the right delivery.

abandonliberty• 11 years ago

Thank you so much for raising that point.

I've spoken English since childhood and I've still gotten it wrong. So awkward. "No, wait, that sounded sarcastic. I really meant it! Ok, that didn't sound any better. Let me start over."

mannkind• 11 years ago

Thank you so much for raising that point.

That seems a bit sarcastic ... ;)

fareesh3• 11 years ago

I think it's important to point out that India is very culturally diverse. I have lived in Mumbai for 22 years, and Canada for 8 years. I have said "thank you" to people all my life. I do it consciously and sincerely - cashiers, rickshaw drivers, waiters, friends, peers, everybody. I don't think I've ever offended anybody - at least not that I know of.

With regard to family - neither of my parents' respective families are overtly religious, and neither of them have Hindu or Muslim ancestries. We say thank you to one another all the time. In fact, I can't relate to what the author is saying at all! In the spirit of sharing/learning about new cultures, here's hoping that the 7% of us (7 million people) aren't painted with this broad brush.

frandroid• 11 years ago

Who is this 7 million people?

fareesh3• 11 years ago

Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and "Others" - since my cultural background is a combination of some of those, I'm fairly confident that the author's perspective does not reflect my community, and likely some of the other minority communities, of which India has 7 million people.

sudoherethere• 11 years ago

I read that article and kept thinking it didn't sound like my family or friends at all. We are Pakistanis & Indians, American born, immigrants, and some back in motherland. Almost everyone I know from Indian/Pakistani culture always says "thank you".

So yes it must be cultural difference in certain part of India, it certainly doesn't represent the most of Indians I know.

bitwize• 11 years ago

In America we are conditioned with a moral duty to be appreciative for what we have and how fortunate we are. It probably stems from the religious nature of some of the early colonies, which religion was Calvinist in nature and big on divine providence, and how it is only by the whim of God that you have a roof over your head, food on the table, a supportive family, etc. We set aside an entire day -- Thanksgiving -- for expressing gratitude and in practical terms that's stretched over a four-day weekend.

bgilroy26• 11 years ago

It looks like "shukriyaa" (शुक्रिया) is a way of saying 'thanks' in situations where formality is inappropriate. Can anyone confirm/deny?

http://wikihow.com/Say-Thank-You-in-Hindi

sumedh3• 11 years ago

Well atleast in Metros even if you are speaking in Hindi, you usually say thank you instead of "shukriyaa".

Pretty much everyone in Indian metro cities understands simple English words like Hi, Hello, OK, Bye, Thank you.

Coming back to your question then yes "shukriyaa" can be used instead of "thanks". "shukriyaa" is less formal than "dhanyavaad"

pknerd• 11 years ago

Ok! So I was a fool felt happy seeing a "Thankyou" message after every transaction or signup :/

Well, thank you!

gdy• 11 years ago

It's about the same in Russia (well, as far as I can tell by looking at my friends and relatives), to the lesser degree perhaps, but the same.

dennisgorelik• 11 years ago

“Thank you for coming to my home” actually meant, “It’s time for you to get out of my house.”

That's a good observation.

“Thank You” in Hindi and English Mean Very Different Things

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