The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

http://mosaicscience.com/story/male-suicide

by lemaudit • 11 years ago

291 313 11 years ago

mosaicscience.com

unexistance2• 11 years ago

In my belief, we prioritize the responsibility

God first, then obligation to parents (both sides if married) then to your immediate family

It keeps thing simple for me & seems to be working so far

Although, I'm guessing not adhering to social norm helps in a way

ca3dmon• 11 years ago

what in god's name is that font

literally unreadable!

jfoutz• 11 years ago

Helvetica is indeed a monster. One might even call it grotesque

cbd1984• 11 years ago

Arial, I think.

unexistance2• 11 years ago

hah didn't notice that, I've set my firefox to force use my choice of font all the time

xai3luGi• 11 years ago

Wow, I didn't think there was anyone else on the web who did that! Most people's browsers obey web designers rather than their users.

a3voices• 11 years ago

I think some people need proper perspective on life. We are all actors playing out silly games of ambition. Achievement is really no different than a life of non-achievement, although your human instincts tell you otherwise. Also there is no such thing as being perfect unless perhaps you are a strong artificial intelligence that is a million times smarter than humans.

Dewie34• 11 years ago

And taking your own life isn't such a big deal if it's all just a game.

Achievements or none; they won't matter to you when you're in the ground.

sliverstorm2• 11 years ago

Well, if none of it matters, might as well stick around. It's not like you have anything better to do.

bottled_poe• 11 years ago

Perhaps, we can still show compassion for those who will be here after we're gone.

Dewie34• 11 years ago

When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond.

I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".

brookside• 11 years ago

Indeed, it seems as though Drummond's suffered from real setbacks and a lack of true social connectedness. I'm not sure why he would be chosen to be the centerpiece of this article about social perfectionists.

mafribe• 11 years ago

Calling loosing one's house and children a setback trivialises the matter, as if it happened by random chance. Instead he was the victim of institutionalised sexism/misandry in the UK which more or less automatically gives preference to women in divorce cases.

sukilot5• 11 years ago

Social norms push men into family/friendships less than women. For the average man, his spouse is the bridge to his social world. Women have more direct connections. A man depends on his family for social stability more than a women does.

M83• 11 years ago

In case anyone still wonders, what did the husband do wrong, how could he make his wife's life better (since either he or society is to blame, obviously), check some of the stories here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/

http://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/

PS: some of the people there are really frustrated though - beware of sweeping generalizations.

tokenadult• 11 years ago

The article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male rate for a long time.

geebee• 11 years ago

I wasn't aware of this.

I had read the overview page on wikipedia, where the numbers aren't broken down by men and women for China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...

instead, they provide a link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China

It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to warrant its own page.

It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.

parennoob6• 11 years ago

I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today.

Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7]

Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism.

To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement.

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-ya...

[2] http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/

[3] http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4

[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29...

[6] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-st...

[7] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-yea...

meatysnapper2• 11 years ago

Yeah, I'm not really seeing the whole social perfectionism thing either. An ex-coworker killed himself in a similar situation.

GhotiFish4• 11 years ago

huh? I hardly feel threatened by basically everything you just listed there. Do you?

I get the feeling if you asked most women: "Do you think men are awful?" The answer would be "Yes but we love them anyway."

and, to be on a less cutsey point.

There was a time in my life where I was seriously depressed, and it was not because I thought society treated men poorly on average. It was because I thought I would have no place in society.

So at the very least for this poster, my experience directly contradicts you. Hardly scientific, but I trust my own eyes.

parennoob6• 11 years ago

I hardly feel threatened by basically everything you just listed there. Do you?

Seeing a bias and pointing it out does not equal "being threatened". Would you speak this way to a woman who was pointing out, say, anti-female bias in hackathon results?

I get the feeling if you asked most women: "Do you think men are awful?" The answer would be "Yes but we love them anyway."

The fact that you accept the "yes" at the beginning of that answer reflexively illustrates my point precisely. Remember that the adjective I used to describe majority of the bias I referred to was subtle, not blatant.

There was a time in my life where I was seriously depressed, and it was not because I thought society treated men poorly on average. It was because I thought I would have no place in society. So at the very least for this poster, my experience directly contradicts you.

I think you are misconstruing my post as a reflection of my life situation. Nothing is really verifiable over the Internet, but I can assure you that it is not.

drumdance• 11 years ago

For what it's worth, the mid-eighties was peak (male) crime in the US. Remember Bernard Goetz?

mavdi• 11 years ago

Terrible cases for sure but none makes being a man any harder than being a woman. Life can be equally shit. I just think women vent things off better than men do.

normloman4• 11 years ago

Men aren't killing themselves because nobody celebrates fathers day. And they're not killing themselves because sitcom dads are morons. They're killing themselves because they feel they have failed the people around them, and can't live with the shame. This pressure to succeed was not invented by feminists, and has existed for many years. Both women and men unconsciously perpetuate a toxic idea of masculinity which keeps men from seeking help,

This masculinity is the cause of your other problems too:

Nobody celebrates father's day because according to society's version of masculinity, men aren't allowed to be sentimental. Getting cards and flowers isn't exactly a manly thing.

Male victims of statutory rape are rarely considered to be victims, because according to our twisted view of masculinity, males are always supposed to want sex. Everytime a female teacher is caught having sex with an underage male student, someone jokes that the young student "scored a hot babe" or something to that effect.

Men on TV are bumbling idiots because men are the primary audience for these shows. The protagonists are always average, unremakable men so that the average man can identify with them. The women characters are always sharp witted and shrewd because they are the antagonists.

erroneousfunk2• 11 years ago

And for every bumbling idiot dad on a television, there are 10 other shows with a lead male character and an attractive, but not-all-that-helpful supporting female. And don't even get me started about shows like "Say Yes to the Dress" and "Bridezillas" :-p It goes both ways.

dang2• 11 years ago

Please don't take threads like this further off-topic with prefabricated lists of links and talking points. This is not conversation.

This entire thread is a train wreck, but this comment is one of the places the tracks were blown up.

parennoob6• 11 years ago

Sorry, I will keep this in mind in the future.

I thought references to what I was saying would be helpful, to prove that I wasn't talking out my bottom. Hence, I was trying to give references from major newspapers and other media resources that backed up things that I knew from memory. A lot of other assertions in this thread (or indeed in a lot of HN threads) don't do this, so I assumed it was a positive.

prefabricated lists of links and talking points

As I said in another comment, a lot of things can't be verified over the Internet, but I will tell you that my list wasn't prefabricated. I wrote that paragraph (or a rough skeleton of it) from the various anti-male things I had seen in the media (not very difficult, IMO); and then took the time to search for the exact details, and added in the references.

I do agree that it is a hodgepodge of various things, which significantly detracts from its quality. I'll try to narrow down my comments in the future as well.

FD3SA• 11 years ago

Fascinating. What constitutes a thread being labelled as a "train wreck"?

cperciva• 11 years ago

A few years ago I was eating dinner and watching the local 6PM TV news broadcast. The lead story: "Friends and family mourn the tragic death of a young woman who killed herself..." Half an hour later: "A young man has become the latest statistic in a string of suicides..."

I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.

SoftwareMaven2• 11 years ago

The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme).

As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.

GhotiFish4• 11 years ago

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined?

I don't understand.

mixmastamyk• 11 years ago

He's speaking of commercials, which often portray dad as barely able to tie his own shoes.

Torgo2• 11 years ago

If I watch an action movie, I am not intimidated by or identify with the cool guy in the movie because I'm not the guy they're portraying. When sitcoms and commercials emasculate and defame the everyman, I know they're talking about me.

sdrothrock• 11 years ago

In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male?

In most stories, the protagonist (male or female) is chosen because they're extraordinary. While I might identify a bit with Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker, they're certainly not going to be people I think of when I try to think of who I am because they're so fantastically extraordinary.

On the other hand, Bart Simpson or Fresh Prince Will Smith? Or, considering the age I'm approaching, Al Bundy? I can identify with them a lot more, even with the negative traits.

The other issue is:

Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined?

Why do you have to be courageous, intelligent, unyielding, strong, or determined? Why are all of those the absolute "good" traits?

If you're not a super strategist, are you a bad person? What if you avoid conflict? Afraid of dogs? etc.

The "standard" of extraordinary manhood is incredibly high if you look at stories like that.

SoftwareMaven2• 11 years ago

It's a valid question, but most people I know (including my boys) identify far more with the guys on Big Bang Theory than Bruce Willis in Die Hard, and those guys are every negative archetype of maleness (sexist, unable to care for oneself, etc) wrapped up in a pseudo-intellectualized package. The one exception was Penny's boy friend, who filled "stupid jock".[1]

What Bruce Willis brings to the table is this idealized version of what "man" is supposed to mean. So, on the one hand, we have an image of men as socially retarded incompetents and on the other hand, we have an image of men as unkillable tough guys. Where is a 15 year old supposed to land in there?

1. I actually really enjoyed the first five or so seasons of BBT, before they started playing more and more to the cheap "socially retarded scientists" jokes. I also believe they aren't making lives better for intellectual young women, either, who need the role models more than anyone.

cmelbye• 11 years ago

In older stories, sure. But the "action hero" died a while ago. Have you not noticed the rise of the weak male lead in movies/TV/commercials? It's hugely prevalent in romantic comedies, but even TV shows like Modern Family (bumbling Phil and razor-sharp Claire) depict archetypes that are becoming quite common.

The formula is a charming yet incompetent male lead who's mainly driven by sex, paired with a strong, capable female lead who's always two steps ahead of him.

If I had children, I certainly wouldn't want them watching TV/movies that depict their gender as incapable or unintelligent. And that's equally true for girls and boys.

vijayr3• 11 years ago

Look at some of the stories from the media. Some airlines will not allow males sit next to unaccompanied children. A theme park bans single males from bird watching, "in case they are predators". Female sexual assaults are disgusting while male sexual assaults are funny, to most people. If a little girl has a problem, it is immediately attended to, whereas if a little boy has a problem, he is told to "be a man and suck it up". Feminism is cool whereas MRA is not. Oh, we also have some "interesting" people like this - http://www.vice.com/read/is-reducing-the-male-population-by-...

And so on.

I wish we look at problems without the gender/race/nationality etc lens and only purely based on their merit. This is 2015 and we still have gender stereotypes, whole lot of double standards (for both genders), laws favoring one gender or the other etc. All this noise is just tiring.

danmaz74• 11 years ago

In old stories, yes. But just look at The Simpsons as a major and early example to the contrary.

s_baby• 11 years ago

I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined?

That is a common motif. Is it easy being expected to be unyielding/strong/determined/etc? You have lower social value when you aren't adhering to this role. When you are adhering to this role you are making yourself disposable to a "higher cause". In other words making yourself cannon fodder or getting black lung in some coal mine.

facepalm10• 11 years ago

In Germany there was a funny incident recently: the Green political party decided to change all the wording in their publications to be gender neutral. In German often jobs have two names, somewhat like "captain" and "captainness" for male and female captains. And so on. They decided to change everything to "captain/ness".

The funny thing was that they properly gendered all positive personae appearing in their publications. But they forgot about the negative appearances.

So it would be "the captain/ness is steering the ship into the harbour" but "the captain is leaving the sinking ship".

So check your bias next time you read a story. It's telling that you don't even notice all the negative portrayals of men anymore.

mattlutze6• 11 years ago

Like a lot of people have said, modern shows are very much into the everyman male lead. Bryan Cranston's character in Malcolm in the Middle, Ed O'Neill's Al Bundy, Tim Taylor playing, once again, the affable rough-though-bumbling dad.

The thing is these are all prime-time sitcoms and comedies.

There's just as many popular shows where this isn't the case. Dramas rarely have this sort of soft, incorrigible-but-loveable archetype.

I'm not super-current on my media, but Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, Walking Dead, Mad Men... most everything on HBO, Showtime, AMC, and FX run with strong, deep, emotionally complex male characters who grow and discover themselves, alongside the female characters.

And the male characters in these dramas are, on the whole, much more identifiable and aspirational.

mason240• 11 years ago

In more stories villains are male.

nkozyra• 11 years ago

My long - but casual - observation is this is not a phenomenon relegated to gender, but rather a common theme with the prevailing majority.

The ability to hold up traits common to those that are in power as a source of derision seems to have a cathartic function in both the recipient(s) and the sender(s).

curun1r• 11 years ago

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing.

But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow us to bond with others. The more you suppress those urges, the more you end up feeling alone. And loneliness is perhaps the most understandable cause of suicide I can think of.

We need to stop sending this message to young boys. It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable. You don't have to simply grit your teeth and toughen up to endure whatever is bothering you.

angersock• 11 years ago

This was maybe a useful message ten, twenty years ago.

The problem is that, honestly, a lot of these feelings are messy. They aren't expressions of weakness, they aren't some magical key used to unlock progress, they're not even something that's easily sympathized with.

They can be the white-hot anger of being pulled off a project or ignored for the nth time in class or being made fun of. They can be the bubbling cold black rage of being forced to work on something only to have it stunted at every turn by bad management or being shunned by members of the preferred gender for whatever reason. They can be the bright flash of joy and uncontainable exuberance of having pulled off the impossible on deadline or winning a hard contest.

The point is, in all those cases, boys and men who express their feelings honestly and openly are considered creeps, weirdos, crazy, or unprofessional.

So, no, the problem isn't that they keep these feelings bottled up--it's instead that, when they're honest and open in their passion, people become uncomfortable and afraid or inconvenienced. We celebrate the passionate man, in the abstract, but you bet your ass it's never made things better in the day-to-day.

In fact, we tend to double-down on this nonsense, and so punish the behaviors (sparring, yelling, cursing, whatever) that would formerly be used to defuse the feelings in young folks until they realize such things are counterproductive, and bait-n-switch them.

steve19• 11 years ago

My experience has taught me the opposite. My grandfather and father were never taught to express feelings. Both were products of their time and circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with that. Both were successful in life despite the odds being stacked against them.

I do not have children. I would not have a clue how to raise a girl, but if I had a boy, I would be teaching him stoical techniques to dealing with problems, not today's 'share your feelings' approach.

(I am not in anyway telling you how to raise your children, just sharing my opinion as a man.)

I just don't see any evidence that the West's in vogue approach to teaching boys and young men to be "in touch with their feelings" is helping them in anyway. They are not happier. They are not more successful (in life). They are depressed.

The stoics taught that most of what we think are problems, are not in fact problems. And the things that are problems are generally not in our capacity to change and therefore probably not worth worrying about.

Society tells us that every little thing is worth being upset about. We are conditioned to even be outraged on other people's behalf over what really amounts to nothing (think every single twitter shitstorm ever). We are told to pick at scabs until they are bleeding, then pick some more. The theory being that if we pick deep enough we will end up in a state of emotional healing/enlightenment and we will feeling better for it. I don't buy it.

alextgordon• 11 years ago

Everybody's brain is wired differently (and infused with a different cocktail of chemicals).

For me, controlling my emotions brings a sense of inner calm -- happiness. There is nothing better than thinking with a clear head, without being dogged by feelings of anger, anxiety, jealousy, fear or sadness.

gadders• 11 years ago

It's OK to be vulnerable, but it is equally OK to master your emotions and and be tough. I prefer the latter route.

MrBuddyCasino3• 11 years ago

It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable.

I've thought about this a lot, and I'm afraid its not that simple. In competitive, male societies where a certain bluntness is socially accepted, you cannot unilaterally change the rules. You'll be a welcome victim to the schoolyard bullies. You'll be setting up your son for psychological damage.

Having friends, doing sports, enjoying nature, taking care of your appearance etc. are probably more effective in balancing a boy's psychology.

If you don't have a cute girl's pretty face, nobody will white-knight on your behalf or care about your feelings - instead, people will be embarrassed.

belorn2• 11 years ago

An aspect of this problem is that society not only teaches people how to behave, but defines expected behavior. If a man defy those expectations and do seek help at a psychiatrist, a documented problem is that he won't be taken serious. Male patients get often too little or no medical support, while female patients suffer from over medication and forced hospitalization.

WalterSear• 11 years ago

The problem is that it quite often isn't actually safe for men to be vulnerable, or share painful feelings yet.

rrss1122• 11 years ago

I feel like the notion that society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings is more of a myth the internet perpetuates than a reflection of reality.

We don't send these messages to boys. The messages we send is that they should be ashamed just for being boys, and atone for the sins (actual and perceived) of their fathers by being subservient and expecting to be shot down when they try to assert themselves.

ryanx4354• 11 years ago

I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with you. those activities are NOT what allow males to bond with others. it is OK to show emotion, but not vulnerability or weakness. male friendship and bonding is orthogonally different from female friendship and bonding.

source: personal experience. all of my male friends and I bond through good natured ribbing of eachother. all of my female friends and I bond through shared good emotional experiences.

Lawtonfogle8• 11 years ago

There is two sides to this equation. Men need to be taught to express their emotions, but society needs to be taught to be just as accepting of a man who expresses his emotions as one who is stoic, if not more accepting. As it stands, you can teach men to express their emotions all you want, but as long as the stoic man is valued more, we are going to have problems.

jongraehl3• 11 years ago

So long as the 'stoic' lack of words isn't an obvious-to-all sullen pout, I can't think of a reason anyone would react negatively to someone who fronts satisfaction in a group setting. Rather, it's over-sharing and over-complaining that will repulse (except in the mutual dance of [platonic or otherwise] intimacy+trust).

bakhy31• 11 years ago

Demonization of all things male? That's just ridiculous. There are nasty things both men and women have to struggle with.

I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothing new there. It used to come with much more rewards, but feminism has eroded that away. So now we are kinda equal, while the old cultural norms still survive, causing pain to men.

Patriarchy is the common enemy.

facepalm10• 11 years ago

The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. What can men do? If they can't find a way to make themselves useful, what is their place?

M83• 11 years ago

"we are kinda equal"

Which gender legally gets the kids, house and alimony in +90% of divorces?

redml2• 11 years ago

Using the word "Patriarchy" unironically gives away the fact you don't care about mens problems, because you're automatically blaming men for these problems.

You live in an age of abundance now, but 50 or so years ago you might be singing a different tune, and you can't reprogram society overnight without causing serious harm.

mreiland6• 11 years ago

As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.

You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves.

The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly loud feminists. They won, and in doing so they left behind half the population. It's time for society to remember that other half.

louhike• 11 years ago

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

normloman4• 11 years ago

But feminists aren't the ones enforcing a rigid version of masculinity that discourages men from talking about their problems.

mkr-hn5• 11 years ago

Every single feminist I know encourages me to open up, and supports me when I do. You need to know better feminists.

ryanx4354• 11 years ago

just wanted to let you know I agree.

cheers, mate

senorito2• 11 years ago

And how is this related to suicide? Actually I think guys with especially masculine ambitions face the highest risk of suicide - which is also explained in the article.

redml2• 11 years ago

This is a product of the wrong people continuously trying to redefine masculinity to fit their own agenda, and most men are confused, shy, unattractive, have low self-esteem, are passive, etc. as a result of this.

These parties would rather men kill themselves over their identity crisis than those men rediscovering true masculinity - because they're afraid of the bad part. It's just the nature of things, Masculinity and Femininity both their good and bad parts, but we only shun one.

whybroke2• 11 years ago

"In every country in the world..." Obviously including extreme male centered societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia

"middle-aged men are most at risk" So obviously not a recent attack on male children. Indeed the problem is greatest among people who are older then the average poster to this thread let alone their often hypothetical children.

There is obviously a serious problem here, apparently related to age, and instead of a sensible discussion it's shoehorned into some men's right agenda. It appears that HN is frequented by individuals so extremist it clouds even their basic critical thinking.

It makes about as much sense as claiming George Price's mental illness didn't cause his suicide but his generosity did it. Or voting to the front page an article about ending the fiscal "evils" of democracy by building an unseaworthy boat.

arprocter2• 11 years ago

How do you know the average age of the people in this thread?

From the linked article - "In 2013, if you were a man between the ages of 20 and 49 who’d died, the most likely cause was not assault nor car crash nor drug abuse nor heart attack, but a decision that you didn’t wish to live any more".

Dismissing the people who try to talk about these issues and branding everyone 'MRAs' seems like an attempt to kill any discussion, normally by those who cannot argue with the statistics.

lazyant• 11 years ago

Yes, name a tv show where the man is the idiot and the woman the smart or normal one (all of them). Name a sitcom where the man is smart and the woman an idiot (none of them, and 'Married with children' doesn't count, they were all idiots. Of course I'm not advocating portraying women as idiots).

kazinator2• 11 years ago

In a TV show in which people are portrayed as unusually smart (not merely normal), most of them will be male.

randrews• 11 years ago

Parks and Recreation. Ron Swanson is an excellent masculine role model.

dragonwriter5• 11 years ago

Name a sitcom where the man is smart and the woman an idiot

Big Bang Theory, kind of (its a sitcom, all the male main characters are intellectually "smart", and the not-smart main character is female, though there are also two "smart" female characters, as well.)

Squarel• 11 years ago

You may be right about that, but there are plenty of societies worldwide that have not had the demonization of all things male, which show a similar pattern in suicides.

The only exceptions seem to be Bangladesh and China. This indicates that, whilst it would be nice to have a simple one-size fits all reason for male suicides pretty much globally being higher than female, the picture is somewhat more complex than "We have been demonizing all things male".

rrggrr• 11 years ago

Spend a day in family court. Nowhere are the expectations of perfectionism for men lower, but rules and the penalties higher. The suicide and early death numbers for men whi transit this system are predictably high.

beachstartup3• 11 years ago

look, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose was disposability - through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities).

let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i didn't say purpose) = reproduction, as far as anyone can tell. a single man can impregnate scores of women, and then die the very next day. the same can't be said of the female reproductive paradigm. for full replacement rate-of-birth, damn near every female is needed, and the other 99 men aren't... technically. however --

modern society has attempted to socially engineer this hasty biological truth out of male populations - it attempts to normalize male achievement and distribute the proceeds in a more equal manner. hence the social traditions and mores that have come to define the last few centuries (i call it the 3 M's - marriage, mortgages, and missionary)

furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.

however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor. our (i hesitate to say western? i mean these days it's all over the fucking world) society has so far successfully plastered over this truth with an embarrassment of material and technological wealth (especially tech wealth in the last 10 years, for goodness' sake think of how many hours one could waste in imaginary world of all sorts), but the ruse may be soon up.

it's true and you can verify it just by looking around - the rest of us men are either invisible, relegated to uncelebrated mediocrity, or become hermits of some sort or another. it's extremely difficult as a man to reconcile the societal and sometimes familial expectations of being into the top 20%, and the slow burn of your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, straight into the bottom half of society.

to me it's absolutely clear why men decide to check-the-fuck-out, whether through technological, societal, or mortal means. we shouldn't be focusing on the problems, which are clear as day, we should be focusing on the solutions. i fear that my industry (tech, software, automation, whatever you want to call it), in which i am a vanishingly minor, yet complicit conspirator, has only hit the accelerator on the depreciation and obsolescence of the vast majority of men.

meatysnapper2• 11 years ago

There's nothing like a large population of angry young men who are under-employed and over-educated. The Arab Spring/chaos started with a guy lighting himself on fire because he didn't have work, and a lot of the fundamentalist appeal over there is that at least it gives you a purpose.

myanonhnaccount• 11 years ago

I've often thought this, every now and then you get a guy that goes off (shooting spree, whatever) - one of these days, one of those people who go off the deep end may be an extremely technically gifted, it would be scary what sort of havoc that type of a person could wreak if they set their mind to it.

pikachu_is_cool4• 11 years ago

The internet and globalization have made us too complacent, probably won't ever happen.

kaitai2• 11 years ago

Women have been disposable throughout history too. Even in societies that respected women, maternal mortality (death during childbirth) was pretty common (and still is in the US). In societies that didn't like having so many women, abortion or infanticide were/are common (see sex ratios in China and India today).

Men get killed in wars and at work. Women get killed in wars and having babies. Both are exposed to different kinds of violence (men in the street, women at home). In your paradigm of meaning of life = reproduction, you fail to point out that women are disposable after they've squeezed out a kid. And whether they want to squeeze out a kid? You don't even ask.

Your dystopian view is not fun for anyone, let me assure you.

beachstartup3• 11 years ago

you're that guy (or gal!) that insists on bringing up women in every discussion about men.

tomp5• 11 years ago

I think the parent meant something different. Men were "disposable" in the sense that they went to fight wars (whereas women were only killed when the wars were lost, and even then many would just be raped/kidnapped, not killed). Women dying at childbirth had nothing to do with cultural norms, it was simply incurable (until recently).

Statistics show that 60% of women reproduced, historically, as opposed to 40% of men. Now, it's possible that there's some artefact in the data, but the obvious explanation confirms parent's logic.

sabaiamurai• 11 years ago

Do you realize how little sense your post makes?

You say maternal mortality was pretty common and still is in the US. It's actually quite rare in the US. Maybe slightly higher than other countries, but still incredibly rare. 28 our of 100,000. So where are you getting your numbers?

You also say that women get killed in wars and "having babies." Like I already showed you, women do not generally get killed having babies. And FAR more men die in service to their respective countries than women do. Laughably, ridiculously, far more men. Sure, an equal number of women and men die in bombings and civilian gunfire, but that's not the result of social or biological norms, that's just the result of random bombs and gunfire.

Finally, you say that men are exposed to violence in the street, and women at home? Actually, both men and women are exposed to violence in the street, and both men and women are exposed to violence at home.

You need to think more critically.

zxcvvcxz• 11 years ago

Since you're saying it without saying it, let's simplify and summarize:

furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.

I.e. Alpha males. Women are biologically programmed to go for them, and that's a good thing for our society's fitness.

however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor.

I.e. Beta males. Sounds awful to be one right? But by definition they are the majority.

Now here's where it gets interesting. The "3 M's" as you mention, i.e. marriage, is a social construct used to incentivize Beta males to be productive. Marriage attempts to create an artificial 50/50 male/female pairing so that the vast majority of men have incentives to be productive and contribute towards society.

Societies which did not have this feature did not succeed throughout history.

Now we reach an interesting point in the 21st century, where by we have so much abundance that female needs are becoming decoupled. Note what I said above: females naturally seek the top of men, but society pressures them to consummate with average men to achieve 50/50. This deal was easier to sell in the past because women generally needed male providers to do the things they wanted: survive comfortably, start a family, etc.

Guess what? That is no longer so. Just read the original story: the now ex-wife has everything she needs, husband not included. His "meaning of life" was reduced to nothing. I'm not saying he's a victim though: I believe everyone has the responsibility to examine the incentives for or against them, understand the nature of those they interact with, and act accordingly. Social conditioning prepared him for the life of clueless provider though, and that sure didn't help him.

What women are encouraged to do now is roughly as follows. Chase those top X% Alpha men during their youth, when their beauty allows for it. Two options are possible: best case scenario, lock down the high value man. Fat chance though, with female sexual liberation, these men can just keep having an abundance of relationships with other young and pretty girls.

The other option is more common for women: hit about 30, coupled with a decline in beauty (which IMO is more linked to career stresses than the age) and then decide to "settle down" with a more provider type. Maybe he even has the "dad bod". I figure that must be a good marker for women to look for around this time, so it makes sense they'd encourage it.

Imagine this for a second. You eat gourmet food for 10 years straight, and then suddenly you have to switch to microwave TV dinners. Would you feel a little resentment? Would you ever have cravings for your previous diet?

In summary, when it comes to happiness and relationships, it's very important to understand the desires and incentives of others, as well as that of your environment. This is also the only way to minimize your exposure to tragedy.

NTDF9• 11 years ago

It all boils down to social pressure, doesn't it?

Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not.

Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.

To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.

esthlos• 11 years ago

I'd like to offer a different perspective.

Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.

Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK.

Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone.

The Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

sukilot5• 11 years ago

For whatever reason, men tend to choose more lethal forms of self harm (guns, cars) than women (cutting, pills)

lmz• 11 years ago

Maybe it's that gap in STEM education we hear about that leads to women being unable to choose properly lethal methods.

jongraehl3• 11 years ago

Perhaps men access certain modes of physical violence (guns?) more easily, but how are the psychological states of murder and suicide related at all? I understand amok/revenge murder-suicides but most suicides aren't that. "Violent crime" doesn't seem like a useful way to carve up reality here.

fierycatnet2• 11 years ago

This article points out something I've felt intuitively for the last few years.

Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?

Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.

voltagex_• 11 years ago

Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

fierycatnet2• 11 years ago

I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.

ddebernardy• 11 years ago

Go camping or rent a place some place reasonably calm or unfamiliar, and stay there for two weeks.

Where exactly matters little, the point is to make it two weeks during which you ignore work and aren't watching news and TV all day long. Your body and mind needs about a week to snap out of your life routine and start resting -- which it does during the second week.

jdpigeon• 11 years ago

If you're into Buddhism, you could always consider a retreat at a Vipassana center. They're affordable and great opportunities for self-reflection and spiritual work.

makeitsuckless• 11 years ago

When it comes right down to the basics, with humans as with most species, males are less useful than females. Females have an inbuilt basic purpose, males have to prove their usefulness to the species/tribe/society. However tragic it may be, maybe it's just perfectly natural behaviour for the "superfluous" males to give up. I guess the opposite reaction would be to go around venting their frustration by raping and pillaging.

(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)

tdkl4• 11 years ago

Drummond was a social perfectionist because he was unconsciously trying to please his absent father. The effect of how a child grows up is astounding to his further development in life.

bakhy31• 11 years ago

Queue male rights activists to explain to us how this is all feminism's fault :/ Tragic, really. Things like this seem to obviously stem from patriarchy. But instead of dismantling patriarchy, a small group of men simply blame everything on feminists. Those feminists, how dare they fight for themselves before they have solved the problems of men! :D

bakhy31• 11 years ago

P.S. The way Hacker News is "moderated" sucks. It was really easily predictable that this would bring me downvotes, irrelevant of how well or poor it may have been written. Dissenting opinions have little place here.

smil2• 11 years ago

Your opinion isn't dissent, it's the generally accepted view.

dang2• 11 years ago

I'd say your comment was rightly downvoted because it was inflammatory, unsubstantive, and off topic. One needn't disagree with your views to see how that breaks the site guidelines.

smil2• 11 years ago

Interesting. You were the first to mention feminism, and created a straw man which you used to express your disdain for men's rights in general.

Tragic, really.

bakhy31• 11 years ago

What's really tragic is that you don't have any actual reply, other than immediately resorting to such a condescending tone and deliberate misinterpretation of what I said.

kbart• 11 years ago

I don't see anything feminism related in this article. Neither anyone blamed feminism (or women in general) in the comment section (as a time of writing). Sorry to disappoint you, but not all problems in the world are feminism related.

bakhy31• 11 years ago

I actually think this is related to feminism - as I said, patriarchy is the common enemy here. And I may have mentioned feminism first. So? Is "feminism" a curse word now?

Red_Tarsius• 11 years ago

The media have been churning out self-reinforcing stereotypes for decades. The effects are as subtle as lethal.

A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.

“A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”

tdkl4• 11 years ago

That must have been horrible. I had a similar experience, but what I got out of it is that I relearned what "friend" actually stands for and that not many exist in my life. "Close aquaintances" are more common, but friends are rare.

M83• 11 years ago

Real title: "How a cheating wife killed her loyal husband and took all his stuff and the kids in a 100% legal and socially-approved way".

johnpowell• 11 years ago

Some MRA bullshit up in here. Sickening.

catlover99• 11 years ago

Perhaps the simple principle that behind every great love/success lays a great suicide. You can't give yourself completely and keep the man inside. Maybe current society places too much value (amongst men) on complete commitment which in turn leads to a type of internal suicide, a loss of self and identity, which may manifest itself in a less internal but instead physical response (a true suicide).

vegancap• 11 years ago

This is one of the reasons the phrase 'male privilege' fills me with anger.

ryanx4354• 11 years ago

it pisses me off, too, mate

senorito2• 11 years ago

In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery is why?

It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support.

Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.

What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.

amelius• 11 years ago

Living in a culture where people show only their "perfect" social self on Facebook certainly doesn't help.

I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at that game.

Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.

DanBC4• 11 years ago

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.

We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.

This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"

parennoob6• 11 years ago

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

What is vaguely frustrating about that? The thesis of many commentators seems to be, "Of course men are going to commit suicide. Society often acts in ways strongly unfavorable towards them.", which may possibly not align with your views. I see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur.

I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when already suicidal. If I told one of my co-workers "I'm feeling suicidal", your statement of "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?" is exactly the kind of answer I would get, and this is true about most decent-thinking people. (In fact, your specific statement sounded pretty insincere to me, and would almost suggest "Please don't talk to me about this," in real life.)

The real problem is why so many men are seeking to seriously commit suicide in the first place, which is why those "frustrating MRAs" are probably talking about it.

DanBC4• 11 years ago

see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur

There's a difference between saying "here's a bunch of stuff that makes it harder for men" (not MRAs) and saying "women did it" (MRAs). There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it". That view isn't supported by the statistics which show higher rates of completed suicide by men for many many years, since before feminist movements became active.

I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when suicidal.

Notice that I'm talking about mental health before the person is suicidal. We know that most people with a mental health problem experience stigma. Also note that previous threads about suicide have had fucking awful examples of wha people think is the right thing to say when someone is suicidal. ("Why don't you go whitewater rafting instead?" Etc)

Why did so many men die from testicular cancer? They do not seek help when they find a lump on a testicle. We had extensive campaigns to get men to see a doctor when they find a lump to help reduce the death rate from testicular cancer.

Why do so many men attempt suicide? Because they do not seek help when depressed nor when suicidal. We know that men do mot seek help from anyone for their mental health. We think that getting men having simple conversations about their mental health will make it easier for them to seek help when they need it.

An example of the type of conversation (see the Matt and Tim video): http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/talking-about-mental-health

If you had a broken arm, in a cast, would you talk about it with your family? Your neighbour? On a first date? At a job interview? Now (obviously) swap "broken arm" with "mental health problem" and see if your answers change. Most people's answers do change, and this is what is being targetted when campaigners are asking people to talk about their mental health.

Nursie15• 11 years ago

> But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about?"

And you know what? This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female friend does. The MRAs have the wrong of things IMHO, and I'm glad I have good friends.

parennoob6• 11 years ago

This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female friend does.

Outspoken feminism can mean many things.

Examples of outspoken feminism also include Jezebel, a mainstream feminist website that is highly popular with my female friends. It publishes an article saying "Have You Ever Beat Up a Boyfriend? Because, Uh, We Have" that includes lines like "...slapped a guy when "he told me he thought he had breast cancer. (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)" [1] (Note that men can get breast cancer.)

I'm not quite sure it's only the so-called MRAs that 'have the wrong kind of thing'. Mainstream feminism can also be pretty ridiculous.

[1] http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-...

hoopd5• 11 years ago

I suppose I'll get labled an MRA for this but I've found feminists to be the absolutely least supportive people in my life over the past X years.

When somebody has an ideological belief that you're luckier than they are it's difficult for them to feel empathy for you.

forgottenpass3• 11 years ago

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Incredibly frustrating that what started as an OK discussion about male social experiences when I went to bed, now has people willing to fundamentally misrepresent the tenor of conversation because it doesn't occur on their terms. You yourself define "MRAs" as those saying "women did it" which didn't seem to be the majority here. (unless not explicitly saying "this is only the fault of men" is equivalent to blaming women)

I'm sure the tide will change though, as people (ie You) seem to be rolling in wanting to have the same go-nowhere internet arguments again and again rather than discuss things on terms outside their comfortable narratives. You're just priming the pot for the conversations you deride. Thanks buddy!

DanBC4• 11 years ago

This article mentions England a lot. You can get detailed statistics from our Office for National Statistics.

If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the (unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...

If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data.

They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.

balabaster2• 11 years ago

It's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I would have outwardly been considered the most successful.

As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.

morpheous• 11 years ago

Crying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry more than adults?

We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!

ryanx4354• 11 years ago

just wanted to let you know I agree with you. cheers, mate :)

Xcelerate• 11 years ago

Social perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can also cause others to feel depressed.

I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.

The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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