Pharrell Williams: $7.3M Blurred Lines verdict threatens all artists

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/20/8262343/blurred-lines-copyright-verdict-williams-creativity

by bruna597 • 11 years ago

44 63 11 years ago

bruna5972• 11 years ago

I think this is stupid. "Feelings" aren't copyrightble.

hawkice2• 11 years ago

Let's step back a little. The story is clearly written to trigger outrage -- really, meant to trigger your precise response. So, let's spend a google seeing if there are elements of this story that were left out due to not fitting the narrative (note: this isn't to say the decision wasn't stupid, or that you are wrong in any factual sense).

Okay, so first that that pops up is that the children of Marvin Gaye were the ones being sued. It's also revealed that Williams describes the issue in such a way that makes it sound like he wrote Blurred Lines in an hour while this Marvin Gaye song was playing in the room (just to be clear, for a typical length pop song, writing it in an hour is _remarkably, exceptionally fast_).

Now, surely this is enough to have us step back and be slightly more circumspect about this -- whatever the facts are, they are neither simple nor provided in the article. Honestly, I'd wait for a legal analysis. Lawyers are not so exceedingly stupid as to think feelings are copyrightable, and neither is the judge who issued the fines.

Lewton4• 11 years ago

(just to be clear, for a typical length pop song, writing it in an hour is _remarkably, exceptionally fast_).

I think you'd find that the vast majority of pop hits are written fairly quickly. Yes producing, recording, finishing a pop song, adding everything that makes a pop song.. pop... can take a long time. But the actual writing is literally just

1. Get an idea

2. put it into the standard pop song structure

Especially for someone like Pharrell who has probably written a hundred songs or so.

It's by no means _remarkably, exceptionally fast_.

Edit:

Look at the way Notch writes code. Yes okay, we could call it remarkably fast. But he does it consistently. It's not a surprise when he finishes a game during a game jam.

Just as I do not find it surprising that one of the most accomplished songwriters of his generation writes a song in an hour

JoeAltmaier• 11 years ago

Thank you! Oh if you could only package that in an app. For every article I see, I get a notation "Story elements left out that didn't fit the narrative".

bruna5972• 11 years ago

Yeah, I'm a lawyer and the law is clear when it says what are the copyrightable things. A song that "reminds" of another isn't enough to be considered as a copy. If that were true, than we wouldn't have western movies or movies where a hero kills the villain to rescue an innocent girl. So, yeah, this is stupid.

jeremysmyth• 11 years ago

Lawyers are not so exceedingly stupid as to think feelings are copyrightable, and neither is the judge who issued the fines.

What about the jury? This was a jury case.

talmand4• 11 years ago

You seem to be leaving out the original lawsuit was filed for a declaration of non-infringement since there were inquiries as to why they didn't pay up to license the previous song. If they felt they didn't infringe then I see nothing wrong with such a preemptive lawsuit to avoid lots of legal paperwork arguing back-and-forth, which only helps the lawyers involved. Such an inquiry would most likely lead to a lawsuit anyway. Might as well roll the dice and go straight to court to get it settled. They simply lost. There's no reason to think nefarious reasons for the first lawsuit not being filed by the children.

Plus, unless you've worked with the person, I'm not sure you have a place in suggesting how long it takes them to accomplish a task.

Finally, there are stupid outcomes to legal cases all the time. Logic and justice do not always prevail in a court of law.

hackerboos• 11 years ago

I think many people know that this ruling is not some test-case that will unleash a wave of lawsuits.

People have been successfully sued for less than this, many times before...

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/sam-smith--tom-petty-...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_plagiarism#Cases

3JPLW• 11 years ago

To me, the Sam Smith "Won't Back Down" case was much more straight-forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkcZV97O3pw

But that's a very simple chord progression with common vocal hits, whereas this case seems to hinge on a very distinctive bass line and percussive style.

Lewton4• 11 years ago

Much more straight-forward. Much closer to being the same thing.

Would still have been pretty ridiculous if a verdict had been made that this counted as copyright infringement. (They settled it amicably)

duaneb• 11 years ago

Most are settled out of court. This sets a very dangerous jurisprudence precedent.

nissimk• 11 years ago

Listen for yourself:

https://youtu.be/ziz9HW2ZmmY

falcolas4• 11 years ago

Interesting. The basic percussive, vocal and guitar riffs are clearly based off the original, though the modern version is more polished and better packaged. The lyrics are definitely different between the two, changing the meaning and full structure of the song.

I'm not sure this justifies a copyright infringement, particularly in the era of remixes. If we can legally use actual samples of another song to build your own, why is a re-imagining which builds upon and modifies the original illegal?

bryanlarsen• 11 years ago

Remixes pay copyright royalties.

talmand4• 11 years ago

From my understanding none of those things were used in the comparison nor any samples actually used. It was that the new song "sounds like" the old song is the criticism. Which could be expanded to mean the person who created a genre of music owns it.

If a musician can be sued for being inspired by another, then dark times are ahead for all musicians.

"What was your inspiration for this song?" "No comment."

vacri3• 11 years ago

We don't seem to have listened to the same vocals. Gaye is singing in a falsetto. So, with significantly different pitch, different melody, different lyrics, different vocal 'hooks'... I just don't see how the vocals are clearly based off the original.

explorigin• 11 years ago

Oh shoot, someone better tell Rick James err M.C. Hammer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5IxfaDnMaU

aikah• 11 years ago

Except in the case of M.C. Hammer it is an obvious sample. Nothing more nothing less.

nakedrobot2• 11 years ago

OK, I just listed to both.

They are not similar enough. I'd say that sure, there was clearly some inspiration, as with all art. Sometimes there is more sometimes there is less, sometimes the inspiration is obvious.

This lawsuit definitely does set a dangerous and unfortunate precedent. Can't say I'm surprised about it. :(

wahsd4• 11 years ago

I listened to both before you did.

I'LL SEE YOU IN COURT, YOU COPYING SCUM.

Cthulhu_• 11 years ago

Hey I wrote a sentence once with the same feel of yours, MY LAWYER WILL CALL YOUR LAWYER

danbmil99• 11 years ago

Worked for years in music biz -- saw numerous cases of this level of "copying" -- the groove, a similar bass line etc -- this was never, ever enough to sue much less win.

The standard in my mind for actual musical theft is George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" vs Spector's "He's So Fine" -- a clear rip-off, chords, melody, both verse and chorus. But Lines vs Gaye, it's just not enough.

The jury must be tone deaf.

stolio4• 11 years ago

People _hate_ the song. Since it came out feminists have attacked it as a "date-rape anthem"[0] and Robin Thicke has become the poster boy for everything wrong with world.

It would be a pretty big coincidence if this copyright case and the level of hate the song has received have nothing to do with each other. The feminists I know are giddy about this.

[0] - I heard that, looked up the lyrics and immediately dismissed it.

AndrewKemendo• 11 years ago

Everything is cyclical, including people filing suit or otherwise causing problems for those accused of being a copycat.

shillster• 11 years ago

Imaginary property rights strike again!

wahsd4• 11 years ago

Another good case why inheritance should simply not exist beyond some practical level.

You die, your live's work should become public domain, meaning, no one can use it and pervert it or change it or use it for profit, but it should not be controllable or some "estate", i.e., your parasitic children and dependents, start suing to extract even more undeserved, unearned, and unwarranted wealth.

GolfyMcG• 11 years ago

This is an overly extreme opinion. We are not simply born in isolation - totally separate beings from one another. It's in our nature to perpetuate society as we see fit and that is not only through actions as we live but also through your progeny - whether they're students or children.

Perhaps you wish to see the world become less dependent on fossil fuels and you've spent your life building a business and cultural following in green tech. You've shared your opinions on why it's so important with students, twitter followers, employees, as well as your children. Why is it not your prerogative to give those you trust the ability to continue your work?

Obviously there are people who don't leave behind progressive and innovative marks on the world, but perhaps they just want the world to be a little bit less dumb and they believe their children are moving the world in that direction (which I think most parents believe of their children). Why can't them give them every advantage they wish to?

Not all children are parasitic and their wealth isn't unearned. It was earned by their parents and rather than shuffling it into a fund for the "public good" they can choose to leave it to their children. The public (including you and I) are just as undeserving of Marvin Gaye's wealth and intellectual property as his children.

On the other hand, these songs don't sound that similar to me and this lawsuit is bullshit.

humanrebar• 11 years ago

Agreed. Also, it's important to provide incentive for people to work hard and make good financial decisions even after they are set up for life.

If, once you had your retirement set, you could only pass a small percentage of your income on to your friends and family (IANAL... and charities?), then why keep working? What about the people making valuable contributions to society: inventors, doctors, entrepreneurs, etc? Doesn't society have an interest in encouraging them to work past having $X million in their bank accounts?

wahsd4• 11 years ago

You are simply stuck in the current mindframe of thinking. It's not your fault or anything, especially considering that the whole notion of inheritance is rather deeply ingrained in many societies' culture, especially in contemporary America, where we fawn over aristocrats and dream about game of thrones.

Although I don't have the details fleshed out, the effect would be that in spite of what you may believe, the outcome is that the incentive to perform and improve and build would be wildly stronger than currently the incentive structure allows for. What if none of your success was taxed, i.e., taken away from you until your work was successful and you then were responsible to pay back society for all the social, intangible aspects that assisted in your success. You still get to enjoy the fruits of your labor, but you also cannot simply externalize costs and risks, while also not paying your investors ... society at large.

There is something inherently supremacist, hypocritical, manipulative, heinous, and rather racist about inheritance that simply perpetuates the evils of the past and undercuts an even remotely equal chance at life, more often than not simply determined based on race. But please also don't simply focus on the race aspect, because there is a larger issue at hand, that everyone, no matter their race should have the same or very similar advantages or opportunities in life not just the wealthy who happened to win the genetic lottery get to inherit all the cheat codes to life and those who lost the genetic lottery get to inherit all the pitfalls, traps, pain, suffering, and disadvantages.

It is one aspect that is absolutely required for humanity to evolve to the next stage if it wishes to progress beyond the current rather primal state we are still in. There is simply no other way than thinking bigger than the selfishness of giving your genetic mashup an unearned advantage over others of the human race. But like I said, it's only one of several things that have to change for humanity to evolve into the next level. No matter whether all other requirements are met, without that step, we will never evolve past the state we are currently in.

username3• 11 years ago

What happens when a corporation dies or doesn't die?

wahsd4• 11 years ago

Is that a joke, because corporations are people?

judk3• 11 years ago

Inheritance is a separate issue. The US Constitution set forth a reasonable copyright time limit. Disney and Sonny Bono turned it into a ridiculous dynasty.

_0ffh2• 11 years ago

Yeah, yeah, same old, same old.

If it's not "Look! Pirates! We're all going to die!!! We need to strengthen copyright NOW!"

Then it's: "Ouch! I lost a copyright lawsuit! We're all going to die!!! WHO is responsible for this insanity?"

baldfat• 11 years ago

Not all same old!

Same old = copyright laws are broken

New = this decision makes it even further broken

_0ffh2• 11 years ago

Same old = copyright laws are getting more and more broken

geebee• 11 years ago

I don't think the scenarios are all that similar.

The first is about taking a precise and full replica of a copyrighted work and putting it on a file sharing system.

The second is about borrowing, perhaps heavily, from a copyrighted work to create a derivative work.

I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent to consider the first infringement and the second fair use.

EvanAnderson2• 11 years ago

The situation surrounding "Blurred Lines" gives me a feeling of crushing sadness. It seems, to me, that the legacy of perpetual copyright (and the death of the public domain, as a result) will be a future in which the creation of new art is discouraged for fear of attracting the litigious attention of the zombie estates of dead artists or the corporate "owners" of the rights of prior works.

fixermark2• 11 years ago

Creation of legitimate new art through the "proper" channels, as opposed to back-alley off-the-radar art where artists get compensated by the goodwill of an audience.

As we've seen with the growth of media content on the web, creators gonna create. Whether compensation for one's creation is something shared among many creators fairly in the light of day or consolidated in the hands of a few (while the rest scrape at charity) is really the question that this sort of legal decision raises.

EvanAnderson2• 11 years ago

It's not so much lack of compensation that seems chilling to me, as it is the prospect of the work of my creative expression being snuffed-out. Granted, I've never had any major creative ambitions (certainly nothing I tried to seek compensation from), but these types of verdicts come up in my mind whenever I think about personal creative expression. Were I compelled more strongly to create art perhaps I'd be less concerned, but my thoughts turn first toward personal liability when I think about sharing any of the photos or music that I've created with others.

badmadrad• 11 years ago

I know alot of people hate "THE MAN" and this is opportunity to do so but you all sound like this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29wNCH4RBrk

These songs are very extremely similar. There is a fine line between being influenced and covering(or sampling) music. I think this song crosses that line. People get sued all the time for sampling without clearing the sample. To essentially copy distinct percussion and rhythms and keyboard rhythm and melody would definitely fall under infringement in my eyes since as any producers would tell you those elements drive the entire song. Even how the song starts with open percussion elements is the same. Its almost like the Mcdonalds vs Mcdowells absurd argument and just a clever way to steal ideas without paying tribute to the individuals who originated and copyrighted those ideas.

empressplay• 11 years ago

Think of a song as something that can be distilled down to a formula. That formula is the 'essence' of the song -- the "groove" for lack of a better term.

Williams' song basically adapted 'the groove'. If I was on that jury I would have probably voted the same way. Inspiration is one thing but adaptation is another.

6stringmerc• 11 years ago

Cough Bullshit cough

There is a really big difference between taking "inspiration" from an artist's style or a certain song's sound versus sitting down, listening to a song, and writing one in the same tempo that hits the same cues just by fiddling with the scale a little bit. Pharell is totally trying to argue a different point than what the lawsuit was about, and he's goat roping as many other things in as he can to try and save face. It's absolutely laughable for him to say "This is about protecting the intellectual rights of people who have ideas" when he just lost a lawsuit based on taking something from another artist.

Look, I'm all for revising the copyright laws on the books, cleaning up some of the issues regarding sampling, and eventually modernizing the commercial avenue by which musicians and other artists like cinema professionals make their money. Genuinely, I want to see things change for the better, not constantly be lobbied and pushed the wrong direction by monied interests (Disney) or legacy inheritors of material. The system is messed up, and I get that, which is why I've avoided the "traditional" system and held on to my rights through Copyright or Creative Commons for years and years and years and have no plans to change that.

Pharrell had his chance ON THE STAND to make his case, and the jury didn't buy it. The jury didn't listen to the recordings and render a verdict about the "sound" or "inspiration" of the tune. The jury listened to the notes being played based on the sheet music, and ruled that it was a ripoff. Why? Because it was a ripoff. Pharrell got busted and now he's doing damage control PR.

Besides, the music industry has ALWAYS been tied up with lawsuits...which is why people use caution when clearing samples (ex: Lemon Jelly), negotiating songwriting credits before/after the fact (ex: Sam Smtih), or defending sync rights when somebody is clearly trying to abuse the system (ex: GoldiBlox vs. Beastie Boys).

Oh, and don't forget the most typical lawsuits in the music business: artists suing the big labels for screwing them out of money:

http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/universal-prepari...

Not that many who sympathise with Pharrell will give this the time of day, but I do think the Gaye family's public statement is a very coherent explanation and should be held up for comparison purposes:

http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/open-letter-from-...

adamboulanger• 11 years ago

The real travesty of the blurred lines case is that data science was not used, from what I gather, at any point. At a minimum, the two tracks could have been compared as to quantifiable similarity using any number of methods. EchoNest, and other recommendation approaches, convolutional neural nets, etc.

The lack of computational methods to abstract and describe the material on either side is particularly bizarre considering the judge's decision to preclude original song material from being played by the Gaye family. I'm convinced that science, rather than expert insider testimony that culminated in a courtroom live-performance jam, could have prevailed.

Pharrell Williams: $7.3M Blurred Lines verdict threatens all artists

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