My experiment with smart drugs (2008)

http://johannhari.com/2008/05/06/my-experiment-with-smart-drugs/

by pmoriarty • 12 years ago

157 128 12 years ago

graupel• 12 years ago

On so many levels I am so tempted to try this, but I just can't bring myself to - but I am in constant envy of co-workers who 'juice' and watch their productivity soar.

Havoc• 12 years ago

What exactly do you mean by juice? I'm guessing not the fruit/Veg kind...

Implicated3• 12 years ago

I believe his use of 'juice' comes from the sports world and how they refer to the use of performance enhancing substances as 'juicing'.

raphael_l• 12 years ago

"Juice" or "being juiced" is a pretty common term for any kind of steroids or performance enhancing substances.

See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juiced:_Wild_Times,_Rampant_%27...

tokenadult2• 12 years ago

Does everybody at your workplace agree that those co-workers produce more work product of better quality than you and your other co-workers?

xj9• 12 years ago

If so, Modafinil probably shouldn't be your first choice, but that's just me. I would recommend Piracetam or something similar.

/r/nootropics has a lot of useful information in their wiki [1] and the community is pretty friendly and helpful to newcomers.

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners

aswanson• 12 years ago

I dunno...me and my cousin call it "farm logic"...nothing more than a version of TANSTAAFL. My guess is that the side effects of these controlled substances will be shown in the long run to be net negative on health and life quality, just like alchohol, meth, sugar, and anything else that throws the body out of equilibrium for short-term gain. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

josephpmay• 12 years ago

As someone with ADHD who takes Ritilin, this seemed interesting to me as a non-stimulant alternative. However, it appears that Modafinil is a "pro-histamine" which would mean that it could aggregate allergy symptoms. I wonder if anyone has ever studied the correlation between anti-histamine use and the development of ADHD.

therein• 12 years ago

As someone with allergies, I can tell you that it doesn't really aggravate any of my symptoms. Its pro-histamine effects are mostly observed in the CNS, and not in the rest of the body.

throwaway31735• 12 years ago

My personal experience with Modafinil is that it very much does have a stimulant effect, if that makes you feel any better.

silencio• 12 years ago

You should ask your doctor about Intuniv. It's a non-stimulant option only approved for ADHD in children in the US right now, but my psychiatrist has been using it off-label with adults pretty successfully.

In my experience, I've found it to be a very pleasing but subtle option, and when taken with stimulants, reduced some of the unwanted side effects I experienced. The only negative side effect I had from Intuniv was noticeable hypotension, but since I didn't experience much ADHD-related change between doses, I probably could have stepped down to a lower dosage to combat that. I only stopped because I was trying to get pregnant, and once it's okay again, I'll start back on Intuniv most likely :)

There's also Strattera, though I have no personal experience with that.

mf0rm137• 12 years ago

Modafinil/armodafinil are great, but you can easily abuse them for replacing sleep.. That was a long dirt road to come back from.

jmckib• 12 years ago

I'd like to hear more about it, if you're willing to share.

Nrsolis3• 12 years ago

I've had a Modafinil prescription for more than a year. I've used fewer than 60 tablets in my whole life.

I needed every single one of those tablets though.

I travel extensively for work and I'm often called upon to be "on" when I arrive somewhere, in their time zone, and/or drive to a final destination when I arrive. Since sleep deprivation is something that has twice almost killed me (or others) while operating a vehicle, I decided to get that prescription and deal with the problem rather than continue to be unsafe.

What I can say is this: Modafinil works. The effect is very subtle but it very clearly eliminates what might be termed "sleep pressure" or the effect of the body trying to FORCE you to sleep. It doesn't actually do anything for your sleep REQUIREMENT.

One nice thing about Modafinil: you can sleep on it. If you take a pill and then have an opportunity to sleep, you can. It doesn't FORCE to to stay awake like other stimulant drugs do.

So it'll keep you from nodding off at the wheel of a vehicle, but won't do anything to help you perform at your BEST when you use it for an extended period of time.

I take it very occasionally (say, once every month or so) and only for a 24 hour period. That kind of on-/off cycle is designed to minimize any side effects and keep me from using it to replace sleep.

On another note: the US special operations community has been using Modafinil (along with other stimulant drugs) to help solidiers/sailors/marines/airmen to overcome the effects of extended sleep deprivation. I've confirmed this directly with members of those communities and their experience mirrors mine. Modafinil is a useful drug, with minimal reported side-effects, that is better than other stimulants because of its low abuse potential and non-euphoric profile.

pmoriarty• 12 years ago

The wikipedia article on Provigil[1] mentions toxic epidermal necrolysis[2] and Stevens-Johnson syndrome[3] as possible side effects. That's enough to scare me off trying this particular drug.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provigil

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_epidermal_necrolysis

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens-Johnson_syndrome

slackson• 12 years ago

I think SJS has only resulted from modafinil use fewer than ten times in total. It's a rare enough response that it's difficult to figure out the actual risks, and I can't find info on the actual rates of modafinil usage. But it seems like something that's probably on the order of a 1/100,000 chance.

awalton• 12 years ago

This was found as a part of an ADHD study of close to a thousand young children, in which one kid may have had SJS, and another kid had a non-serious suspicious rash, and that was enough to kill the whole study with no such repeat studies being done since.

So yeah, 1/1000 chance going by that study alone, which doesn't say much since the drug has been prescribed millions of times in the US and abroad with no significant mention of SJS outside of the study. In short, it's just ass-covering medical paranoia.

What has been shown is that modifinil can mess with liver enzymes over time, and that should be scary enough to tell people not to use the drug long-term.

My own experience with the drug is pretty similar to the article's, but without the strange addition-like component this guy seemed to have. I was able to quit cold turkey after a month without so much as an after thought, and I still use it from time to time when my autoimmune disorder flairs up and causes fatigue and brain fog that not even ten cups of coffee can cut through.

tdicola• 12 years ago

Ouch, I knew someone who had SJS from a reaction to some drugs and it was a truly horrible experience. Ended up in the burn ward for a while because SJS was basically causing their skin to come off. Would not wish that on my worst enemy (luckily they recovered after a grueling week or two).

sparkzilla• 12 years ago

Not so smart: getting busted for plagiarism: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/jan/20/johann-hari-qui...

dominotw2• 12 years ago

How is this related to the original article? Are you saying he might be lying about his experiences ?

domdip• 12 years ago

It's the same author. There's a pretty big overlap between plagiarists and fabulists, so it's hard to put much stock into a subjective article like this.

blackobelisk3• 12 years ago

wrongc0ntinent• 12 years ago

From a recent Guardian article: "Using a false identity, Hari had maliciously amended the Wikipedia pages of journalists he disliked [...]"

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/02/johann-hari-int...

TheGrassyKnoll• 12 years ago

I can only compare this to my coffee habit. I have to have it. No project, especially a physical one, can start without it.

But, gotta be careful with stuff like this. It sounds great, but is it really gonna be you who controls the drug ?

Maybe, but it might not always work out that way...

fr0ggerrr• 12 years ago

The U.S. gives it to fighter jet pilots often, to make sure they stay awake.

fenaer• 12 years ago

It's apparently also been shown to have positive effect on depression, when taken with anti-depressants[1]. That alone makes it very attractive to me. Who knows, maybe I'll try it some day if it gets proven safe but I can't bring my self too at the moment.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17729016

noname123• 12 years ago

I tried Provigil two years ago and it came in powder format and I had to mix it. It tasted bitter and had no pronounced effect me. I had better response to coffee but then again they say placebo is hell of a drug.

stevencorona• 12 years ago

Sounds like you might actually be thinking of Piracetam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam)

ggreer• 12 years ago

That doesn't sound like modafinil at all. I've never heard of it being sold outside of pill form. Typical dosage is 75-150mg, making a powder easy to mis-dose. Although overdosing on modafinil isn't possible, too much would result in unpleasant side-effects: stomach pains, headache, nausea, insomnia, etc.

Also, the effects of modafinil are obvious. In addition to being coffee++, the metabolites make your urine and sweat smell weird. If someone says modafinil didn't work on them, it's probably because they ordered it illicitly and got counterfeit drugs.

Are you perhaps thinking of a different nootropic? From your description, piracetam seems much more likely. It typically comes in powder form, and its effects can be charitably described as subtle.

Side note: If you're interested in nootropics and modafinil, I highly recommend gwern's articles on the subjects[1][2].

1. http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil

2. http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

gwern3• 12 years ago

I've never heard of it being sold outside of pill form.

Powder is not unheard of: Air Sealed use to sell modafinil powder sourced from Sun, which was apparently legitimate and quite competitive on a per mg basis.

But as far as I know, they were the only powder source and they shut down quite a while ago (maybe 2011? I'd have to check my price-tables to see when I dropped them), and only in the past few months have any new powder vendors showed up (on the blackmarkets). So unless one of us is considerably off on dates or my knowledge of modafinil sellers is less complete than I thought, I'm not sure where noname123 could've gotten modafinil powder.

throwaway86809• 12 years ago

You know what the worst thing is? I'm depressed, on antidepressants, can't sleep, can't concentrate, always tired, unproductive, unfocused. I fall asleep in meetings. I am not quite the target audience for this drug (I'm not actually narcoleptic) but I'm pretty darn close.

And, as far as I can tell, it doesn't work on me. Ordered some from an online pharmacy, took it for ten days straight... no detectable change.

Implicated3• 12 years ago

You would know if it was working for you.

I too have tried them, and the effect is so intense that it's a deterrent from actually using them.

ridgeguy3• 12 years ago

I strongly recommend you get a prescription to try known real modafinil. You simply cannot trust online Rx unless you have HPLC/NMR analysis capabilities at your disposal.

t__r• 12 years ago

I tried Modafinil (provigil). Its effect was mild at best, and it was hard to determine whether this was a placebo effect or not. Ritalin, on the other hand, was very effective, but it gives a bit of a cocaine-like high, which scared me enough not to use it for more than a week. Luckily that was enough to get me through that seemingly insurmountable pile of work I had to do.

throwaway31735• 12 years ago

How much did you take?

dustingetz• 12 years ago

Modafinil and Startups (Daniel Tenner): http://swombat.com/2012/2/27/modafinil-and-startups

Here is the conclusion:

"I will come strongly on the side of saying that anyone who wants to build a startup should stay away from any regular or semi-regular Modafinil use, as it will impair their judgement enough to make up for any apparent gain in productivity, and I would further posit that any founder who takes Modafinil regularly has a habit (as I did) of taking on potentially large, unknown long-term liabilities for small short-term gains, which is not a good thing."

ChazDazzle• 12 years ago

The impaired judgement he experienced could just as easily be attributed to his prolonged sleep-deprivation rather than the Modafinil.

spacemanmatt• 12 years ago

Neither is recommended.

nashequilibrium• 12 years ago

1) Well, its in vogue http://www.vogue.com/946795/provigil-adderall-silicon-valley...

2) Arrington also has an article on it http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/15/how-many-of-our-startup-exe...

YuriNiyazov• 12 years ago

L-theanine is #1 recommended by http://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/faq

cheald• 12 years ago

I've been taking L-theanine with my coffee for a few years now. It has a noticeable positive impact on my ability to focus and think clearly. I also feel a lot more comfortable taking it than other nootropics, because a) it's just a naturally-occurring amino acid, b) I'm not aware of any negative side effects reported from using it.

blackobelisk3• 12 years ago

Worth mentioning but hardly comparable to Provigil

nkozyra• 12 years ago

Not even the same ballpark.

L-theanine is meant as an addition to high levels of caffeine to reduce the negative effects of caffeine.

mbrock• 12 years ago

From the FAQ:

"Most studies done on the l-theanine-caffeine combination have a l-theanine to caffeine ratio that isn't consistent with ratios you would expect from most teas. The studies used about twice as much l-theanine as caffeine by weight. The ratio found in most teas is reversed, with the possible exception of high quality green tea. Tea also increases fluoride intake which may lead to skeletal or other health problems when consumed in excess."

I'd just like to put in a word for good deep-steamed sencha (fukamushi-cha), and for special occasions the more expensive gyokuro. Brew it properly and it's very, very delicious, and the effects are just lovely. You easily get four brewings from one dose of tea leaves. I drink it most days at work and it's such a delight!

tyrfing• 12 years ago

Creatine (monohydrate) is another very beneficial supplement for most people. It has well-studied mental benefits if you don't get a lot of dietary creatine (mainly red meat). Tip: it'll dissolve nicely in your hot coffee.

throwaway31735• 12 years ago

I've been taking 200mg of Modafinil probably on average of 3 times a week for the best part of 4 years now and it has certainly changed my life for the better. It is very effective at raising my mood and motivation. I disagree that it doesn't have a stimulant-like effect though. Before taking Modafinil, I had a very high caffeine tolerance (I could drink as many cokes or coffees as I liked and not even notice the effect). I usually have to limit the amount of caffeine I drink to one coffee these days, or my heart rate goes through the roof. It also makes my jaw tense (a common side-effect of stimulants, apparently). I am quite a clumsy person at the best of times, but I've also noticed that my co-ordination seems to be adversely effected (poor judgement of space, etc) although my reaction times do seem to improve (I've surprised myself sometimes catching falling objects that I'm sure I'd never catch if I hadn't taken Modafinil). I haven't seen this effect documented anywhere though.

beagle3• 12 years ago

I am quite a clumsy person at the best of times, but I've also noticed that my co-ordination seems to be adversely effected

I haven't seen this effect documented anywhere though.

Astereognosis (loss of 3d perception) is a documented side effect of modafinial use - in fact, it was the ONLY documented unwanted effect of modafinil when it got approved, IIRC.

My co-ordination improves considerably with great omega 3 intake (3-10 grams per day) after a few days. This has been described in several places, though as far as I know was not studied rigorously.

onedev3• 12 years ago

Where do you get it? I'm very, very curious.

kordless• 12 years ago

Read the last line in the blog post.

lumpypua• 12 years ago

Not affiliated, but modafinilcat.com is amazing. 2 successful orders. Subreddit with reviews and such here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ModafinilCat/

Nrsolis3• 12 years ago

Modafinil is easy to get a legal prescription for in the US. It certainly was for me.

I get mine paid for by insurance.

jwdunne2• 12 years ago

The point about caffeine is important. For me, mixing caffeine and modafinil is not a pleasant experience, both with tea or coffee. The experience is counter-productive as I often feel too jittery to do anything and my mood crashes.

As a northern Brit, the tea flows like water in the office I work at. It's quite hard to resist, again, as a northern Brit.

jwdunne2• 12 years ago

Also, to add, modafinil gives me bruxism and tension in the jaw. If you have any issues with your TMJ, this will definitely not help.

rewqfdsa• 12 years ago

Where can I buy Modafinil?

quotemstr• 12 years ago

If you think Modafinil and Provigil are controversial today, wait until we have genome-editing techniques for increasing intelligence. Transhumanism is inevitable. I really do not understand the opposition to allowing individuals to increase their intelligence.

throwaway31735• 12 years ago

I don't think there's an opposition to it. People just don't want to shoot themselves in the foot by gambling on Modafinil having no long term effects.

wyager• 12 years ago

I don't think there's an opposition to it.

There is definitely opposition. It's mostly on religious grounds, a la "My beliefs dictate that I should prevent you from 'playing god', because that privelege is reserved for my deit(y|ies).".

jotm• 12 years ago

Tell that to the idiots who make every slightly risky (aren't they all?) drug illegal or, if we're lucky, prescription only.

Oh, that includes Modafinil, and I'm counting the days until someone notices Phenylethylamine.

tokenadult2• 12 years ago

Genome-editing techniques for increasing intelligence look like they are a very long way off, as I have learned from the behavior geneticists with whom I participate in a journal club.[1]

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614...

gwern3• 12 years ago

What is the connection between that paper and your claim?

blackobelisk3• 12 years ago

Sounds to me like a guy who's never taken adderall before

AnthonBerg• 12 years ago

The effect is actually quite different. Much more subtle and therefore more effective in a way - less intrusive. It's very much a drug, though.

gwern3• 12 years ago

Having taken both, I don't think they're the same. (Modafinil is more pleasant.)

Xophmeister2• 12 years ago

I tried modafinil for about a month -- maybe a bit longer; I don't remember -- and believe it had the desired effect (although I'm not convinced that wasn't a placebo). I felt more focused and, importantly, less prone to anxiety and depression, without the unstable skittishness that, say, caffeine gives me. (That said, it made my pee smell rather funky!) After researching as much as I could, I felt the risk was acceptable. The only reason I didn't continue my "experiment" was that it's a bit too expensive for the relatively mild improvements. (e.g., A good holiday, as the article mentioned, has a similar effect.) I considered trying to get it on prescription -- as it definitely seemed to help with my anxiety -- but felt that, besides that being off-label and therefore unlikely to be approved, it would be an somewhat unethical use of NHS resources!

throwaway31735• 12 years ago

I felt more focused and, importantly, less prone to anxiety and depression, without the unstable skittishness that, say, caffeine gives me. (That said, it made my pee smell rather funky!)

This is my experience too. My first order of Modafinil was actually an afterthought tacked on to an order of Propranalol (after deciding I'd had enough of being stunted by anxiety). It turned out that the Modafinil was way more effective than the Propranalol, although this is no longer the case for me. After an extended period of taking Modafinil, I find that my heart rate increases too much when I'm anxious. Not quite sure what caused this shift (could be tolerance, or my guess is heightened awareness of the effects after taking it for so long). However, taking Modafinil with Propranalol works wonders. Funky pee be damned!

aantix• 12 years ago

L-tyrosine may have a similar effect but cheaper. It certainly can replace the daily cup of coffee for focus.

Xophmeister2• 12 years ago

I always suspected cheese was the answer

fezz• 12 years ago

Modafinil is fantastic if you want to super-procrastinate on steroids. Rabbit holes go on forever.

You have to have tasks all lined up and the interwebs unplugged (selfcontrol doesn't help if you know how to disable it)

Implicated3• 12 years ago

You have to have tasks all lined up

I rarely see this mentioned, but I cannot agree more. In my experience with Modafinil, if I had tasks lined up before the effects took hold, I was golden and would obliterate that to-do list/etc. But if I were left with 'nothing to do', it was just like you described...the rabbit hole just got deeper.

So many people have had wildly different experiences with modaf (as with any drug really)...for me it's biggest positive was that context switching, mentally, became nearly 'free'. Generally my biggest hurdle in completing tasks through the day is when I finish with one task in one context and am tasked with unloading all of that information and jumping into something new...this is where I procrastinate, or generally just struggle with maintaining pace. While taking modafinil that penalty was seemingly non-existent. I was able to bounce from problem to problem, project to project with no mental penalty or friction. Quite amazing really.

Though I generally just don't find the sensation while taking them enjoyable or even worth it in many cases...increased heart rate makes me and my hands sweat (and smell), tight jaw and general inability to just 'relax'. I bought 60 nearly two years ago and have taken maybe 10 of them. I'm also a contractor who doesn't work under any or much stress/pressure, which may have something to do with my apathy towards their positive effects.

To each their own, I can absolutely see how this drug has and can change people's lives.

throwaway01010• 12 years ago

I took dexedrine from middle school through college and my early work years. Once I learned how to use it (which took a long time), it was an incredibly fun drug that I could also use very effectively.

But I felt like it stole time from me, I could be productive and happy all week on it, and then I'd be depressed and tired all weekend as a I took a drug holiday. It was worth it to me when I was younger, but now that I have kids, I can't trade time like that.

orasis• 12 years ago

In the past I mostly used modafinil for driving long distances, which it was exceptional for. Now, I simply sip Yerba Mate the whole time and get a very similar effect.

Shengbo• 12 years ago

I can definitely recommend yerba mate to anyone trying to stop drinking coffee or just people in need of a longer lasting stimulant with no crash afterwards.

peteretep• 12 years ago

I have a prescription for Provigil for jetlag, but like the author, I'd found non-prescription channels for it before.

I've found it excellent for combatting tiredness, and it can improve my focus, but nothing like the Limitless-esque drug the author talks about. Admittedly I've only taken 100mg at a time, but still - about 5 hours after I take it, I tend to become cranky. I get obsessive about things, rather than focus, and if my obsession falls on the wrong thing, I find myself having wasted 6 hours on writing up or investigating some hare-brained business scheme, rather than my work.

I have easy, legal access to it, and I only take it these days if my sleep is majorly disrupted. If I was getting the benefits the author was, I'd take it every day.

jonnathanson• 12 years ago

Worth reading:

http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil

matznerd• 12 years ago

Modafinil has actually been shown to have negative effects in high performers. It is a wakefulness agent that promotes alertness and not necessary memory formation. For the ladies out there regarding modafinil, provigil, and adrafinil (an upstream analogue that requires no prescription in the us) watch out as it can interfere with birth control.

I think what most healthy individuals looking into substances like this actually want, are nootropics. I want to draw a line here between cognitive enhancers and nootropics though. All nootropics are cognitive enhancers, but not all cognitive enhancers are nootropics. Nootropics have to enhance learning and memory, while being extremely safe and actually neuroprotective (from the disruption of memory formation from chemical and physical damage). Nootropics are generally safe and beneficial for everyday use and with the racetams, Rhett actually have a better effect overtime.

icelancer• 12 years ago

Anyone interested in "smart drugs" must read HN's own gwern on the topic:

http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

amelius• 12 years ago

I'm just wondering how people can order this stuff over the internet and expect it to be the genuine thing...

It just sounds extremely incautious to me.

duckingtest3• 12 years ago

It sells in India for about one eighth of online's price. The price of ten 200mg Modalert pills is about $2.5. Counterfeiting simply doesn't pay, as it would kill any return business for minuscule one-time gain.

hippich• 12 years ago

I tried some indian knock-off in 2009 and some piracetam manufactured locally (in Belarus,) none had any effect on me. I wonder if indian knock-off wasn't modafinil at all. I had no any side effects even after bumping to 500mg. I wonder if these drugs have selective effectiveness?

mikerichards2• 12 years ago

So what's the modus operandi when going to the doctor? I've got some legitimate symptoms - lack of energy, focus..especially in the afternoon, but I'm wondering what people are saying to their doctors? Are you suggesting Modafinil?

Also, what's the cost for a monthly supply with insurance?

bjwbell• 12 years ago

A nap in the afternoon might be as helpful. I found taking an hour nap or hour run after lunch helps with my focus/drive. Lifestyle changes shouldn't be downplayed.

mikerichards2• 12 years ago

Unfortunately or fortunately, I don't live in Spain so that's not an option ;)

heyutoo4• 12 years ago

For mild depression, anxiety and ADHD, I've been using an all natural vitamin supplement called EMPowerPlus from Truehope for the last three months. I've noticed mild improvement in my mood. I've been on anti-depressants before that didn't work.

Last week I went off of it for two weeks just to see if I could discern any difference. I felt my mild depression return and I couldn't lift myself out. With the supplement, I can.

Very expensive, but I'm going to keep using it as I feel the results are worth it. Their website cites published clinical studies to it's efficacy.

Disclaimer: I have no relationship with the company other than being a customer and I don't derive any direct or indirect benefits from sales of their products. Just sharing this in case it helps someone and to see if anyone else has experience with their products.

unepipe• 12 years ago

How did you go off of it for two weeks last week?

heyutoo4• 12 years ago

Sorry, sloppy writing. It was actually about a week and a half. I wasn't very scientific about it at all, just went off for awhile to see what would happen.

heyutoo4• 12 years ago

I've been mostly a lurker here on HN for the past few years, and haven't made many comments.

So for the sake of my learning curve, can anyone clue me in to the reasons for down votes? I don't take them personally. Just curious and wanting to learn. Is it because the comment seems spammy? Or is it off topic? Sloppy writing?

Robin_Message• 12 years ago

I didn't downvote, but: it seemed alightly off-topic; also it's in the worst possible range of anecdote/bad science (N=1, no blinding, it's a vitamin supplement so I suspect it contains no active ingredients anyway, you claim anti-depressants don't work on you†).

gwern's articles on how they try out drugs is very good at explaining how to do blinding etc. and is actually credible. Do something like that and you'll definitely get upvotes.

† No judgement here, but the burden of proof is quite high when you're claiming a properly tested medicine doesn't work and a supplement does.

sremani• 12 years ago

You are not staying on the subject of productivity enhancers when you are talking about mood enhancers for treating or managing depression. I think that is my sense why you are down-voted, do not take them personally and if you do, use it as a learning tool. HN uses karma to nudge the reader to write with certain level of quality, substance and style in posts.

teddyh11• 12 years ago

The story tells of how some guy took some drug and apparently had positive effects. How does this anecdote affect me? Any medication I use should be tested in clinical trials and be prescribed to me personally, or be deemed safe for sale over the counter; i.e. non-prescribed use. Are other people using these anecdotes as sufficient reasons to actually take random drugs? I have to ask: Are these people insane?

If you have “an Everest of work”, the solution is to get less work, not to take drugs. Be the person you are.¹

① (Not applicable to actually prescribed medication or care from a licenced professional.)

marssaxman• 12 years ago

That's a very conservative way of looking at it. One can also observe that the political establishment concerned with the "war on drugs" is driven by moral panic, not science, and the legality and availability of psychoactive substances is therefore a function of politics, uncorrelated with safety or efficacy.

I trust random strangers on the internet to provide me with accurate and useful information about the composition and subjective effects of various experimental drugs far more than I trust the official bodies in charge of regulating them, because the official bodies are proven to be untrustworthy, while random strangers on the internet may or may not be untrustworthy.

teddyh11• 12 years ago

If, for political reasons such as you mention, you don’t trust your the government of your own country to determine which medications are safe, you should find some other suitable scientific institution to trust. Perhaps some other country’s, which does not have the problem you see in your own country.

To instead trust random people’s anecdotes on the internet is quite possibly the worst thing you could do.

wpietri7• 12 years ago

Does your doctor prescribe your caffeine and alcohol? How about your artificial light and your exercise? Or perhaps your intake of B-complex vitamins or various edible oils? The various natural dietary supplements available at every Walgreens and CVS? All of these have known effects on mood and productivity, and pretty much everybody just tries 'em and sees what happens.

Nearly as many people have the experience of going to a doctor, getting diagnosed with something moderately uncommon, and going through a trial-and-error treatment process where they are guiding what happens as much or more than the doctor.

So no, they are not necessarily insane. What is covered by prescription varies a lot from country to country, and the line is at least as much about medical economics as it is about safety. There are plenty of things that aren't available over the counter not because they're more dangerous, but because they were discovered after the FDA was created and because the financial incentives are to keep them as prescription drugs.

teddyh11• 12 years ago

Does your doctor prescribe your caffeine and alcohol?

Strawman. I said “or be deemed safe for sale over the counter”.

many people have the experience of going to a doctor, getting diagnosed with something moderately uncommon, and going through a trial-and-error treatment process where they are guiding what happens as much or more than the doctor.

The key word here are, I think, “going to a doctor”, as opposed to unsupervised self-medicating, or at least without supervision of a trained and licenced professional.

What is covered by prescription varies a lot from country to country […]

Yes; see my other comment. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869314)

a-b• 12 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Adverse_effects

duckingtest3• 12 years ago

I would describe modafinil as an internal task-switcher disabler. For this reason, I don't use it often. For example, if I accidentally start reading reddit, on modafinil this will probably end in writing long, thoughtful comments for the whole day. The thought of stopping simply doesn't occur. My stomach will rumble, but I won't feel hunger. Conversely, changing tasks in response to external input becomes much easier.

This uncontrollable concentration applies to all levels on all tasks, which is why modafinil kills creativity, at least for me. If I have lot of grunt job that doesn't require creativity, sure, modafinil will make me plow through it. However, in today's world valuable grunt work is rare, so it's not that useful. It kills task-related mind wandering, it kills daydreaming, it kills original thought. Sort of a zombie state really.

Constant use would probably make me a top burger-flipper at McDonald's or similar, but that's it.

Another very big cons is its long half-life, which eventually results in sleep deprivation. Sleep at normal hours becomes next to impossible.

Good for emergency situations when I have to be able to function despite severe sleep deprivation (like not sleeping for one or two nights).

visakanv• 12 years ago

The thought of stopping simply doesn't occur. My stomach will rumble, but I won't feel hunger. Conversely, changing tasks in response to external input becomes much easier.

This sounds like my daily life, actually. (I'm pretty sure I have ADHD). I've tried modafinil a couple of times, and interestingly, I have the opposite reaction- I find that it makes me quicker on my feet, more 'on edge'. I respond and react to things faster.

Interesting.

dogma11382• 12 years ago

These things make me wonder how soon until all of our life will be based on medicated states. Take a smart pill for work, and a fun pill for the pub... While Modafinil and similar "smart drugs" currently don't actually improve cognitive functions all that much and are most like a nanny for your brain telling you to stop watching cat videos and work what happens when a smart drug will actually hit the market? It only takes a tiny fraction of the workforce to be taking those to create an avalanche. If true smart pill will hit the market that say increases your cognitive function and concentration and straps say another 50 or 100 IQ points (i know it's a bad measurement unit for this but i don't have a better one) on you then even a single average guy in your workplace is enough to trigger this. This is the same reason why we do not allow performance increasing drugs in (most) sports, it's not because it's unsportsmanlike or because they are scared people will stop watching, it's because even a single athlete on those forces everyone else to take them just to even out the playing field.

FidesFacitFidem• 12 years ago

More of a side note; your comment sounds a little naive regarding PEDs in sports. The idea that you can compete at the highest level and be drug free is practically a myth. Anti doping in sports is laughable and anyone with a intermediate knowledge on the subject could pass an olympic level drugs test. Plain and simple, when there's vast sums of money and fame involved people will cheat. (Whether it be an athlete taking PEDs or a banker insider trading)

dogma11382• 12 years ago

I know that and you can see it in Olympic sports every time they introduce some new drug testing method all the results go down a notch or 2. On that level it's more about who has better technology and scientists than who has better genes and works harder. But it doesn't mean we want this attitude proliferating to the work force, no one should be forced to become a hyper focused drone so he could code better to get a job, and if things continue this way it might as well happen.

MattWilliams456• 12 years ago

Very provoking article. A little correction though, although Sartre found inspiration for his writing from his mescaline experiences (especially for Nausea) he did not write on mescaline, he rather preferred amphetamines. On the same note the lobsters only(!) stayed with him a few years not for the rest of his life.

My experiment with smart drugs (2008)

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