Taxi protest in Paris turns to guerrilla warfare as Uber car attacked on freeway

http://www.rudebaguette.com/2014/01/13/taxi-protest-paris-turns-guerrilla-warfare-uber-car-attacked-freeway/

by liam_boogar • 13 years ago

79 129 13 years ago

rekatz• 13 years ago

Uber driver apparently pulled them out safely. It's a shame some countries take change so violently. I love Paris and France, I also use Uber there... this is terrible. SO glad Kat and Renaud made it home safely afterwards.

aragot3• 13 years ago

The article doesn't state it's a protest against Uber.

I condemn violence and most strikes when they're used as an easy form of politics, but we can also note that protesters don't feel supported by their government and that's their way to make a threat.

static_typed• 13 years ago

Luckily for Uber, the protesters only protest a maximum of thirty five hours per week, Fuck off entirely for the month of August, and won't travel more than two miles from one of the dirty bistros to protest in the first place.

If I was Uber, I would pay cash to all the homeless people to take slow long rides in the normal cabs to block them up.

kubiiii3• 13 years ago

You forgot to mention they only shower once a week. Forgot the sarcasm warning.

carlob• 13 years ago

I downvoted your comment because it doesn't add nothing to the conversation other than prejudice and borders on racism.

Every other day there is content on the front page suggesting that a shorter work week and 4 weeks of holiday are actually good for you and still here you are.

You're probably just a troll, I shouldn't even have replied.

stumpyfr3• 13 years ago

Can we please stop that type of comment? I guess...maybe I am wrong we are here because we share common interest in new technology and future, not racisme and old jokes :).

tadfisher• 13 years ago

What a great way to win support for your cause.

wavesounds• 13 years ago

This is simple case of a Scab breaking down the power of the union and the union fighting back against it.

Violence is wrong and this is not ok.

However, Uber should be more aware of what they're 'disrupting'. Strong unions see this as a foreign company threatening their livelihoods and there will be push back.

collypops2• 13 years ago

That was my point, as subtly as I hinted it. Some people just don't have a sense of humour though. Or maybe I'm not funny. Or maybe they're too attached to what I'm poking at. Who knows.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7049636

rmc6• 13 years ago

However, Uber should be more aware of what they're 'disrupting'. Strong unions see this as a foreign company threatening their livelihoods and there will be push back.

Yeah, this isn't USA. There are actual employment rights and strong trade unions here.

onli• 13 years ago

But also criticism of taxis. Have a look at http://transports.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/01/12/pourquoi-je-nai... for an example.

david9273• 13 years ago

I'm also in France and I am very happy that workers actually have rights here (as opposed to my native land, the USA).

But you always must keep diligence, because unions can devolve into a mafia. The taxis here in France are an example of that. I have never had a single ride that was the correct price, and after many attempts I gave up. I'm certainly not alone. People have been trying to disrupt and get around them for ages but they fight as mafia do: fiercely.

jsnk• 13 years ago

Strong trade unions are dandy and employment rights are okay too.

Threats, violence and vandalism of someone else's property are not okay.

rtpg4• 13 years ago

it's slightly ironic that the unions in France are strong despite low participation rates , and in the US there's much more participation.

One could argue that , because of collective bargaining, there might not be that many advantages to joining a union in France (the biggest union ends up representing you anyways).

yummyfajitas3• 13 years ago

We had similar problems in the US. Various organizations would start legitimate businesses and engage in violence against competitors - garbage collection, construction and importing Italian foods (olive oil in particular) were quite popular.

They would also extend "protection" to favored businesses, and use violence against businesses which did not accept "protection".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

We've had great success using laws such as RICO against them. Perhaps France can ask our law enforcement agencies for some tips.

cdavid2• 13 years ago

The massive infiltration of union by mafia is quite specific to the US, so I fail to see how it is relevant.

stumpyfr3• 13 years ago

All french people are not rude, stupid and whatever like them ;) It's a shame and in the same time, we can use it against cabs who don't understand that it's maybe time to accept change and move on with, not against.

kubiiii3• 13 years ago

I think the protest is not directed towards the right direction, but Parisian taxi drivers need to buy a license which is like 200 k. They see this investment go down the drain as new businesses like uber appear.

stumpyfr3• 13 years ago

I know, I am from Paris :). But my point is "why not accept it's maybe time to change some "things"". Why we use Uber? it's geek (ok its a point) but mostly because: -nice and clean car -nice people -good service -moderne (phone, payement,...)

I am sure it's possible to modernise cabs of Paris (and other cities)(hmm maybe time to think about a new project! ;))

nraynaud2• 13 years ago

As a French, I hate taxis as much as other people. I guess the taxis drivers only have other taxi drivers as friends. Even the government is acting out of fear. I suppose the government could lead a battle, but they have to pick them wisely since they have low ratings, and gay mariage have already quite strained the support in a very conservative country. Moreover that would be seen as a movement to ease the entry of a foreign company stealing the money from french ones.

collypops2• 13 years ago

That's what I call disruption

negamax• 13 years ago

This is like Hotel owners hitting home owners for being host on Airbnb?

_pmf_• 13 years ago

This is like Hotel owners hitting home owners for being host on Airbnb?

Hotel owners are typically a bit above minimum wage.

chii• 13 years ago

are you saying that being on minimum wage is a justification for violence?

roma1n• 13 years ago

French cab drivers are typically way above minimum wage...

rtpg4• 13 years ago

While it might be hard to defend the incumbent taxi industry, and Uber generally seems to be a "good thing" (not convinced that surge pricing is worthwhile however, I don't think that drivers are reactive enough that increasing price will increase supply when its needed, plus the backwards bending labor curve, but I digress). There might be some reasons for regulating taxis, but things like the medallion systems seem to have been a failure.

Hotels are a different matter entirely: firstly, hotels are usually already pretty correctly priced, and services are usually good (in my experience at least). Secondly, the reasons for hotel regulation are still pretty relevant:

- I don't want my neighbor to sublet constantly, and have people run around. The commons (hallways and stuff) will probably get degraded, and my life will be generally shittier (see various stories about subletters).

- On a more maco-level, with things like rent control, subletting makes the supply even more constrained. Between getting rid of subletting and getting rid of rent control, I'd rather get rid of rent control, but in the meantime subletting is also kind of awful.

airbnb's disruption is not uncontroversial

kristaps• 13 years ago

Many taxi drivers are considered semi-criminal tough guys where I'm from (apparently elsewhere around the world too), so this is one incumbent which can become quite unpleasant while on their way out.

tikhonj• 13 years ago

For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes before getting a ride. Given that the average black car gets to a customer in 7 minutes, this is a serious handicap. [1]

This sort of law feels really backwards. It degrades the service of companies like Uber and imposes negative externalities on society--more cars pointlessly idling and waiting around, more traffic congestion and so on. The idea behind a market is to improve quality; trying to "improve" the market by arbitrarily degrading the quality of some competitors is exactly counter-productive.

Given that the taxis have gotten this absurdly protectionist restriction in place, it's even harder to empathize with their protest. Actually getting violent is even worse.

Of course, it's also important to remember that this is likely an extreme action by a single individual and does not represent taxi drivers as a group. In fact, there is no immediate link between the attack and taxis, although it seems extremely likely. That said, even ignoring the violence, I do not really sympathize with the taxi protests here.

[1] http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/28/uber-lecab-and-others-now-h...

pervycreeper• 13 years ago

It degrades the service of companies like Uber and imposes negative externalities on society

What are you complaining about? This is just the french way.

noja• 13 years ago

Is the "American way" (the NYC medallion system) better?

These generalisations don't help.

userbinator3• 13 years ago

For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes

This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce?

cdavid2• 13 years ago

It is quite difficult actually, if only for political reasons. Taxi drivers have a high level of nuisance, which gives them bargaining power. It would be suicidal for the gvt/institutions to go directly against them.

While violence is unacceptable (and hopefully the perpetrators will be found and tried), one also needs to realize that taxi drivers had to pay a high price to become taxi drivers. The current price for a license is 250000 euros in Paris (according to http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_parisiens). Anybody in that situation would be pissed, and a fairer solution would most likely involve a plan to rebuy licenses.

InclinedPlane4• 13 years ago

This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce?

Trivially easy. Just spend a few days every month booking rides, if they show up too early then they get fined or shut-down.

nona• 13 years ago

It's not exactly a level playing field, with a limited number of taxi licenses being bought and sold on the open market for around 200k-250k. No surprise they're not happy and want to recoup their investment…

The Rude Baguette did a nice article on how the Paris taxi market works, which explains a lot: http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-...

kubiiii3• 13 years ago

Thank you for the link. The licence value is the key reason why taxis are pissed. It is also the reason why they organised taxis scarcity, keeping the licence price up, and the service terrible. They kind of created the ideal conditions for alternative solutions developpment. But a proper way of recouping their investment should be provided to them rather than articially distinguishing the Uber businesses and taxis businesses. Its basically the same.

ig1• 13 years ago

How would you feel if you paid quarter of a million euros for your taxi licence (maybe by mortgaging your property or going heavily into debt) only to be undercut by illegal taxi drivers who didn't bother to get licensed and didn't follow regulations ?

Obviously it's not an excuse for violence, but it's important to remember there are always multiple sides to any argument.

icebraining4• 13 years ago

I'd be pretty pissed at the guys who forced me to pay a quarter of a million euros.

trigger• 13 years ago

This is exactly what happened here in Ireland in 2000. The market was deregulated overnight and there was a flood of new taxis on the roads.

Needless to say existing taxi drivers weren't very happy as a lot of them had paid around €100,000 for their license. They were effectively worthless after deregulation.

All this was great news for consumers of course. Before deregulation it was practically impossible to get a taxi in Dublin on weekend nights. I can recall queuing for hours in the cold and wet for the privilege of being dropped home.

The taxi drivers mightn't like deregulation but you can't hold the general public to ransom by operating a closed market. Of course the government should have handled the whole thing better by doing some sort of deal with the drivers who'd paid so much for licences thinking it was a long term investment.

InclinedPlane4• 13 years ago

Because the system is broken and people are heavily invested in the current system and it being broken...

What? What's the logical conclusion to that sentence in your mind?

Should we keep on running the war on drugs because there are so many people who make a living off of it? Should we maintain copyright law the way it is today because companies have invested so heavily in it? Should we maintain software patent law the way it is because some folks have spent billions acquiring patent portfolios?

rodelrod• 13 years ago

Was there a good reason to have allowed the licenses be traded in the open market? This is what has driven their values to these outrageous levels.

nraynaud2• 13 years ago

that's why they added 1000 licences, to deflate slowly the market. The are going from 17000 to 18000 licences.

The market got corrupted by artificial scarcity, it has to go back to a normal level, those who speculated will have to pay for it, as they are part of the problem. They know it and that's why they are so violent, they have no hope.

JoeAltmaier2• 13 years ago

So in France its become a rule that violence is the way to counter unpopular laws? Recently a negotiator was kidnapped by workers, which is sad enough, but apparently its become the norm to kidnap negotiators as a regular tactic.

Has all rule of law broken down in France? I sounds like some Mad Max free-for-all there.

negrit2• 13 years ago

Not trying to advocate violence here, but few broken windows works better than wearing black armband.

This is how it seems to work in this country. Nobody will ever pay attention to some quiet, peaceful and respectful protesters, but as soon as things are getting dirty, then medias are all in and people/politics are actually talking/thinking about it.

This is indeed unfortunate, but as a matter of fact it works

pointer8993• 13 years ago

Glad to see the taxi drivers of Paris taking action. Uber are just another scumbag American company, trying to turn a skilled profession into an anonymous commodity service, and in the process ensure the CEO makes millions while the employees receive peanuts. This doesn't fly in a country with such strong Unions and solidarity as France.

mgraczyk• 13 years ago

This seems like sarcasm, but if it isn't would you care to elaborate on how France or its citizens are harmed by Uber? You seem to have first praised the Taxi drivers for lashing out at Uber drivers, but then you claim that Uber is a "scumbag" because of the way it treats its drivers. Isn't that contradictory?

pointer8993• 13 years ago

Not sarcasm. American companies are notorious for treating employees like shit and paying them as little as they legally can. French Unions ensure decent working conditions and a fair wage.

aragot3• 13 years ago

There's a license for taxi driving in France. Uber and Uber drivers don't pay for it. That's unfair competition.

I can see on taxis-de-france.com that the price is 120-195k€ (Notice the k) depending on the zone. It's not comparable to 240.000$ in Chicago, because the average salary is 1500€/month in France. Guess why taxi drivers are irritated.

shin_lao• 13 years ago

Generally speaking taxi in Paris is unpleasant experience. It was only a matter of time before some competition arrived to "fix" the problem.

VMG2• 13 years ago

The customers don't seem to care about the "skilled professionals"

neverminder2• 13 years ago

The luddism approach never wins, but there will always be people who will try.

rmc6• 13 years ago

Oh man, you don't wanna take on the french unions. They'll protest when it's cold and burn paris to warm the place up.

Truck drivers starved the country of petrol a few years ago.

This ain't America.

mnml_2• 13 years ago

replace the word unions by mafias

markdown• 13 years ago

Not a fan of unions or labour rights? Why call them mafias?

VSerge• 13 years ago

This calls for the police to get involved and bring these attackers to court, plain and simple. How anyone could imagine this is a valid form of protest is beyond me.

Nux• 13 years ago

Times are changing and people tend to resist change. Unfortunately many times it gets violent. Unions are a dangerous thing to mess with, but in the end the customer convenience should win.

All they need to make sure is that Uber pay their proper taxes in France. ;-)

userbinator3• 13 years ago

Would it be of any benefit if Uber cars were less identifiable?

aragot3• 13 years ago

Yes.

While Uber doesn't seem faithful to me on this story, I would also love if taxis in Paris were affordable and good quality, like in Madrid and Syndey. It would develop the job and reduce car pollution.

rdl5• 13 years ago

This would be really terrifying for the passengers and driver -- impressed that the Uber driver was able to deal with it as well as he did. This pretty clearly falls into a lethal self defense situation, so driving off, and if required through, the attackers would be totally reasonable, but if your car is already disabled you're kind of screwed.

It's amazing how some cities have essentially criminal mafias running taxis (Paris, Pattaya, to some extent Bangkok), some have crazy feudalism (New York, where you have rich people sitting on $1mm medallions and Somali immigrants making $30/day to drive), some have what seem to be overpriced but reasonably well run services (London, Singapore), and some just have ~no taxis at all (most of the US outside major cities, and most poor parts of US cities).

I will shed zero tears for the end of the taxi industry. First by Uber and ride sharing, finally by robots.

negrit2• 13 years ago

so driving [...] if required through the attackers would be totally reasonable

Absolutely not, doing so might kill one of them and it's a crime(Article 221-1 in the french law).

rdl5• 13 years ago

Self defense isn't an absolute right in France? Even in NYC it is.

vincie3• 13 years ago

Uber and it's ilk are nice and disruptive and all and you get a cheap ride out of it, but we must not forget that they are disrupting people's livelihood and cultural and social traditions too. I do not condone the violence, but I kind of understand it. Do we really want every country to be Americanized like this, one disruptive app at a time? To some people, these "unions" appear to be protection rackets, but I saw them as part of the French society and culture. If you don't like it, don't force your own beliefs and practices down their throats. Go somewhere else.

digitalengineer3• 13 years ago

Oh yeah and the Mafia is just part of Italian culture right? Don't like it go somewhere else? As a person with Amsterdam Taxi experience (including getting pulled out of a taxi and forced to ride another taxi at the train station at midnight) I welcome competition. The problem with no competition is the way some taxi-drivers can treat their 'clients': We've had drivers refusing to accept clients, because they were female, or because the ride wasn't profitable enough or even because they were BLIND. The driver didn't want the dog in the car. We've even had drivers trying to rape clients. It's a bloody mess. UBER in Amsterdam has been a big success. I welcome them with arms open wide.

vincie3• 13 years ago

The mafia is illegal in Italy as far as I know, so that is not a valid comparison. Yes there are problems with all taxi drivers, and I do not see how Uber drivers are immune from these.

userulluipeste2• 13 years ago

"To some people, these «unions» appear to be protection rackets, but I saw them as part of the French society and culture."

This push of yours to shield the unions with culture is reprehensible. There are definitely elements that are part of culture/society (conferring it uniqueness), but those should be carefully kept apart from other things such as unions what are not. Don't let the economic players to corrupt your perceptions towards non-economical realm, especially when what is targeted is a part of your identity (and therefore affects your ability to judge things objectively).

DanBC2• 13 years ago

French labour laws are serious. French unions don't mess around.

Farmers use their machines to fling cow shit at government buildings. They set fire to lorries full of live sheep.

See this example of officials vigorously enforcing labour laws. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/french-pub-f...

thaumasiotes2• 13 years ago

They set fire to lorries full of live sheep.

Wow. I'd love to see that happen in the US, where Obama was criticized for swatting a fly in public.

parasight• 13 years ago

There’s no confirmation that this attack came from the protesting taxi drivers

So why are we talking as if it came form the protesting taxi drivers then? Maybe they were just ordinary thugs. I know people who got robed in their rental car in Paris. I love Paris but there are certainly saver places in France.

snitko6• 13 years ago

Let me tell you how things are in Russia. We don't have any taxi driver unions, I don't think we have any licensing for taxi drivers, but if we do, it's probably not expensive.

In Russia it works this way: you go out on the street, raise your hand and you get your car in like 1 minute (even at 4am in the morning it doesn't take very long time, provided you are downtown, did that many times) - basically some guy who wants an extra buck will stop and get you anywhere. Some make a living that way. You negotiate the price, it's usually rather cheap even in large cities compared to what you'd be charged for the same ride in Europe or the US. You don't have to tip the driver, since the price is negotiated beforehand. Now we also have a lot of competing official taxi companies. They all are relatively cheap and they mostly get their clients through internet or phone and the use case for those is when you need to go to the airport or have a pre-arranged trip.

We also have jitney transportation which is only slightly more expensive, but much faster than public transportation. Drivers are mostly from central asian republics or southern republics - demographics russians are rather hostile to - yet I haven't met more friendly drivers in the whole world. And, in my personal view, people are rather receptive to that and are quite polite with them too. It's pure competition and free market and it works to the benefit of all.

You can criticize Russia all you want, but in some areas the free market here exists relatively untouched (probably thanks to bribes, but still, it's better than regulation).

rdl5• 13 years ago

Would light regulation hurt this? Just requiring that all taxi drivers display an ID number, and with some inexpensive process to become a new taxi driver (verifying you're not already banned, that you have a valid license, and if required in Russia, insurance).

The problem with taxi regulation is when "safety" is used as a pretext to reduce supply. I pay a premium in general to get a taxi which is somewhat less likely to be driven by a criminal, and I imagine female/small/weak/foreign/etc. people would pay more of a premium for this. If the regulation is just for the purposes of identification and safety, it wouldn't have a huge cost for the taxi driver ($50 or so and a few hours), and would probably justify an increase in rates to make up for that.

I could easily imagine a private licensing system coexisting with an unlicensed market.

snitko6• 13 years ago

Why would you need an ID from a taxi driver? If you're scared a taxi driver's gonna rob or rape you (a common concern among ladies) you remember or photograph his plate number (or ask your friend to do so). An official government paper wouldn't make it any more safer. It would only add problems for drivers since they would have to acquire those licences, it would increase corruption and decrease supply, which would in turn raise prices. If you care about safety, call a licenced taxi company - your choice, isn't it?

Update: I misread you. "licensing system coexisting with an unlicensed market" is definitely the state of things in Russia currently. I think that's a good way to go. Except maybe that since licensing is not required, then safety may be guaranteed by non-governmental agencies or maybe even technologies (as mentioned in another comment below).

rtpg4• 13 years ago

How safe is it? I heard that one of the reasoning for the entire registration of taxi services was that a lot of unlicensed taxis were actually dangerous, and that enforcing registration greatly lowered the amount of crimes happening inside the taxis (at least reports of this).

snitko6• 13 years ago

I think it's safe. But I'm not a lady. Even if I was a lady and was really concerned for my safety while riding cabs, why wouldn't I call a licenced taxi company instead and pay more for my safety? The problem with requiring everyone to be licenced is that you force customers who are less concerned about their safety to pay for those who are more concerned.

marquis• 13 years ago

I was in Russia a few times back 10 years ago and regularly did this as a solo woman traveller whose Russian is not so good. I felt perfectly safe, at the instruction of other girl friends at the time. Not sure I'd do that anymore solo (youth provides a certain fearlessness) but no qualms when with others.

aric• 13 years ago

   "Microsoft Managers And Employees Protest, Bash Computer of Linux User"

Eventually, some of these hardworking taxi drivers will have an epiphany. They're fighting the wrong entity. Fighting against decentralized commerce and personal choice is generally a side of aggressors. When the dynamics of reality become inconvenient to monetary interests, the first call of aggressors and cultists alike is to forsake the freedom of others. We pay the piper. We eat gruel. You better fall in line too, or else... The sooner a person begins to actually care about other people, the sooner a person may acknowledge reality to adapt or improve.

vincie3• 13 years ago

Or, turning it around somewhat: "Lisp Programmers Demand Expulsion of Users of Inferior Languages".

Dude, leave them alone. If that is what they want to do, let them be. Never mind what your opinion of "improvement" is.

ahomescu1• 13 years ago

Dude, leave them alone. If that is what they want to do, let them be.

If they're using violence to get what they want, you can't really leave them alone (morally or practically).

tga_d• 13 years ago

This isn't "guerrilla warfare," it's an isolated case of assault.

cpa• 13 years ago

Bashing french unions certainly is fun, but please note that there absolutely no evidence (in the article) that the attack was perpetrated by a french taxi driver. This article is either very poorly documented or consciously misleading (or both).

There’s no confirmation that this attack came from the protesting taxi drivers; however, that certainly seems to line up with the sentiment felt by taxi drivers these days – unwarranted hate.

userulluipeste2• 13 years ago

But it's not only about the physical attack itself, which I agree that it's doubtful, it's also about the broad view. There's an economical-based conflict that stretches far out of pure economical front, using questionable methods, for questionable reasons (fight someone because some one else ripped you off?). Not that is something unique, but interesting to watch nevertheless.

sebastialonso• 13 years ago

I've been always curious about these relationship that arises when someone disrupts an existing ecosystem.

I'm all for innovation,and finding ways to make things, environments and habits, better, more efficient, safer and more intelligent. This, however, raises an interesting moral dilemma. In these ecosystems, prior to the disruptor, agents live and thrive. After the disruptor, these agents must adapt or otherwise, be gone.

When you think these agents are actually human beings, with issues, dreams and families, a new variable is added to the discussion. Is it OK to disrupt an ecosystem if you find a way to make everything better? Is it moral? You found a better way, so surely it must be implemented, and there are few arguments against that. The agents in the ecosystem had almost all what was needed to find the new way, to enhance their ecosystem: time, experience, imagination. And for one motive or another, they failed to do it. What is their argument when someone else comes along and provides a better solution?

I'm not trying to sound Randian or anything, but I truly believe that 'we have families to feed' or 'will lose job' is not a very good argument. Is the ecosystem supposed to be kept in the previous state just for the agenda of a subset of the agents? Under that argument, we shouldn't have cars in the first place. Nor bronze age (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGAtLGDU7M)

Is this a testament of the inherent cruelty (cruelty in a poetic way, just as natural selection can be thought of cruel) of the free market, or just a testament of the importance of innovation as a way of survival? Maybe both? I can't help but notice heavy analogies with Natural Selection.

jaekwon3• 13 years ago

At the same time, it's just a bit strange that we take "innovation" for granted.

Think about it. The way we prod it forward, always stumbling away from our past.

Overall may be the biggest baddest religion man has ever seen.

Godliness is our final destination. That's significant, and possibly our own undoing.

Taxi protest in Paris turns to guerrilla warfare as Uber car attacked on freeway

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