London's first pay-per-minute cafe

http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minute-cafe-ziferblat-london-russia

by wr1472 • 13 years ago

201 165 13 years ago

theguardian.com

tsmith• 13 years ago

3p/minute = 5 cents US per minute, or $3 per hour?

Seems incredible!

justhw• 13 years ago

What is p? certainly not pounds, right?

Sniperfish• 13 years ago

pence

jmgrosen• 13 years ago

Pence.

swalsh• 13 years ago

Seems like a fine line. At $3, you don't really expect more than a chair and some autoshop coffee. However once you cross that line where you're paying similar prices to a movie maybe $7 an hour you start to expect more.

Numberwang• 13 years ago

1 Coffee to go please.

acgourley• 13 years ago

Workshop Cafe in SF does it by the hour, seems to work pretty well. You get 10 hours free to start, it's worth your time to stop by for those hours at least.

kchung• 13 years ago

Workshop Cafe is one of my favorite places to work in SF. You don't feel like a cafe squatter since you pay for your seat, and its always nice working around like-minded individuals. Plus there are so many outlets... http://workshopcafe.com/

tdumitrescu2• 13 years ago

I just spent a few hours there. It was pretty much at capacity the whole time. Cool to see it succeeding such a short time after opening. Though for me personally I can't say the environment there's ever been particularly conducive to meeting any of the supposedly like-minded individuals staring at their screens next to you.

cgag• 13 years ago

Love this place. So nice to have a place to code outside the house where you don't feel guilty for staying all day.

jlees2• 13 years ago

Thank you. I didn't know about this and it looks perfect for my occasional SF uses.

jadence3• 13 years ago

Developer for Workshop Café here. Thanks for the mention!

If you or anyone else reading this stops by you'll probably see me on the Community Page (under the name "Newton") as I'm in the café often. You can see where I'm sitting so you can come introduce yourself!

michaelt3• 13 years ago

According to this: http://calvertjournal.com/articles/show/1845/ziferblat-russi... it's £1.80 an hour, or £9 to stay as long as you want. A nearby coworking space, Google Campus, is £90 for 30 hours a month with coffee and tea paid for separately.

Of course, it would be easy to create an environment that deterred laptop users if that's not compatible with what they're hoping to achieve.

GigabyteCoin4• 13 years ago

Wouldn't this cafe eventually be filled with freeloaders who pay 9 pounds per day in order to get gourmet coffee and food all day long? That's a pretty good deal if you're a cheapskate living in london. Sandwhiches can be 9 pounds by themselves.

sreevishwa2• 13 years ago

That's Quite possible.

Or if someone is a real cheapskate, they could come here twice a day (£3.6) for two meals. They have coffee, fruits, veges and a kitchen - what else do you need?

michaelt3• 13 years ago

The impression I get from [1] is when a reporter visited the food was biscuits, peanut butter, toast and an onion (Apparently customers are invited to bring and cook their own food)

£9 would get you four loaves of bread[2] and three jars of peanut butter[3]. You'd have to be pretty hungry to eat enough of that for them to make a loss.

I assume the concept is fairly experimental at the moment, presumably they won't want people sprinting in, making an espresso for 3p and running out. Or I might have misunderstood what I read in [1]. In any case, it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.

[1] http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/08/pay-per-minute-c... [2] https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Wholemeal-Bread-Medium... [3] https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Crunchy-Peanut-Butter-...

hk__22• 13 years ago

I don’t think so. The Anticafé in Paris has the exact same concept with roughly the same pricing (€14/day), and has been open for more than 8 months now. AFAIK they don’t have such problem and the place is crowded by students and 20-something with MacBooks everywhere. They don’t offer sandwichs so it’s hard to have a "real" lunch here, you’d better go buy a €4 sandwich elsewhere and come back eat it there. As students, we don’t really come there for the free food, but because you can stay all the day working without being disturbed by a waiter asking you to leave.

nodata• 13 years ago

Sandwhiches can be 9 pounds by themselves.

Where?

Wintamute• 13 years ago

You can go and sit downstairs in the Google Campus cafe for free and get 70MB/s internet, which is just around the corner. That's where the freeloaders go :)

gaius• 13 years ago

I reckon I could be in, grab a coffee, and out in a couple of minutes, cheaper than Starbucks!

retube• 13 years ago

Yeah sounds like a potential loophole

chippy4• 13 years ago

I suspect there is some psychology at work here.

For example: "its so cheap, I might as well stay until I finish this coffee"

Or "I don't want to appear to be abusing this system, so I will stay and be a part of this place, as other people don't do this"

caprad• 13 years ago

Used to work at a coworking space near there that was £40 for 2 days a week, a really great deal. Wish I could find anything approaching that in Melbourne, for some reason they are incredibly expensive hear in Australia.

robotfelix• 13 years ago

The information in that article is incorrect. The Café at Google Campus is (and has always been) free to use, although the tea and coffee is indeed paid separately. Alternatively you can pay to become a 'Resident' on the other floors where you can enjoy free tea and coffee.

I think the author was hoping to encourage startups out of the free seats! ;)

[1] - Campus London FAQ - http://www.campuslondon.com/faq/

[2] - Campus London Price List (managed by TechHub) - http://www.techhub.com/blog/types-of-membership/

blowski• 13 years ago

Disclaimer - I work for TechHub

As mentioned above, the cafe is free and run by Central Working. You can use it Monday to Friday, 9am - 6pm. You get free wifi. You have to pay for coffee, but it is very good (provided by Dose Espresso, who use Square Mile Roasters).

TechHub (who run 1st and 2nd floors) offer resident or flex membership. Flex gives you access Monday - Friday, 9am - 8pm. Resident gives you 24/7 access with your own desk. Everybody gets free coffee and toast.

3rd floor changes from month to month, but doesn't usually offer coworking.

Seedcamp are on the 4th floor. Obviously, you only get to use that space if you have been accepted into Seedcamp.

5th floor is used by Google themselves.

jschuur• 13 years ago

The Campus cafe has a great vibe, but it does get very full quickly in the morning. Space is at a premium.

dkersten2• 13 years ago

I like this idea. Would love to see more things like this.

mjolk• 13 years ago

Then become a customer or donate money.

dkersten2• 13 years ago

Too far away to become a customer. Will look into donating money.

gingerlime• 13 years ago

sounds brilliant. I always feel guilty/uncomfortable sitting too long, but with this kind of place you never feel guilty.

1.80 per hour and includes everything (coffee?) sounds like a bargain in London standards. That won't buy you a cup of coffee in most other places as far as I remember, let alone fruit, vegetables, biscuits etc... Even cheaper than co-working spaces(?), especially for casual use.

golergka• 13 years ago

I'm surprised to find out that it's first of it's kind in London. In Moscow these place became quite common in the recent years; it's a great place to chat with friends, or gather big companies. They usually have a selection of available board games and other company-oriented entertainment.

Xymak1y• 13 years ago

While there are comments that mention getting drinks to go, I think 1.80 pounds are extremely cheap for spending time at a place, drinks and snacks included. I'd go.

eponeponepon• 13 years ago

So for 15p I can go in, make my own four-or-five shot latte, spill the milk everywhere because I'm hurrying, stuff my mouth full of biscuits, and walk out again?

Do they expect profit..? Or is the rest of the service industry just gouging us silly?

[edit: typo]

darklajid8• 13 years ago

Yeah, and you can go to all-you-can-eat meals and skip eating a day before and after to get the most out of it.

I agree that the business might seem risky in quite some ways, but .. exploits like yours are probably possible in a lot of places. I'm reasonably sure that I could go to a good number of hotels, check in for a number of days, have my breakfast/empty the minibar and leave. Going to a cafe and leaving without paying is usually trivial, only social norms stop you from doing that (or .. don't).

zht• 13 years ago

where in the world can you find a hotel where you are not charged for what you take from the minibar?

appplemac2• 13 years ago

Actually, the Ziferblat in Kyiv already is profitable.

mpeg• 13 years ago

Yeah and you can also go to starbucks, pay £1.50 for a coffee and pee outside of the toilet.

I don't know, is your argument against this cafe that some people are cunts? Well, they are.

rwallace• 13 years ago

Why bother with a stunt like that when you could ignore the existence of the cafe and just bring coffee and biscuits from home for free?

manishsharan2• 13 years ago

I really think all coffee shops should start charging people for loitering long after they have finish their coffee.

I live in Toronto and I can't remember when was the last time my wife and I were able to enjoy a latte while sitting at a Starbucks or Timothys. Nowadays, it seems all coffee shops are overrun with kids doing their homework or whatever. The worst part is that the laptop/tablet people barely make eye contact with others; they are so engrossed in their screen !

Thankfully,we found a smaller coffee shop which does not offer Wifi and where the owners discourage loitering / homeworks.

thirdtruck• 13 years ago

I'd gladly pay for guaranteed work-space on an hourly basis and get complimentary coffee, more so than the inverse.

manishsharan2• 13 years ago

Coffee shops like Starbucks or Timothys are were not meant to be a work space . What bugs me is that coffee-shops used to play an important role in the community. Its where you went to dish the dirt, catch up with the neighborhood. It was like a bar for socializing without the alcohol . Now coffee shops are being overrun with laptop/tablet people working remotely seeking a work space. These people occupy spaces fo r long periods shutting out regular coffee-drinkers and without contributing any conversation or even a hello to the community.

Any development that lures these people away from my Starbucks is OK in my book.

edit : some typos.

eigenvector• 13 years ago

When I was at U of T, I used to blame all the coffee shops being filled with students on the university not providing adequate work/study space for its 44,000 students (a few of my friends got banned from a nearby Second Cup after using a booth at the back to solder circuit boards for a design project).

After graduating I moved to the suburbs, where Starbucks is rammed with high school students doing homework but the public library across the street is empty despite having more comfortable seating, faster Wi-Fi and you know, actually being intended as an open public space for quiet reading and study.

bunderbunder2• 13 years ago

Does the library sell good coffee and tea which you're allowed to take to the workspaces, and have pleasant lighting?

My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.

tsiki• 13 years ago

I honestly think public libraries should be allowed to use some of their money to advertise and create a brand for themselves. For a lot of people the thing deterring the usage of library is simply the idea that it's unexciting or doesn't offer enough, while usually a coffee shop is pretty much equal or worse. Of course it'll lead to people complaining how their tax money is being used for ads, but it makes libraries reach a larger audience and, in economic terms, improves well-being of more people.

timtadh• 13 years ago

The most effective way for coffee shops/cafes to discourage people working for long periods without driving that business away altogether is to not provide any outlets! A cafe I like to work at takes that approach and it seems to do well for them. Most of their customers are there for coffee/food and conversation. I am mostly an anomaly for doing work there.

agumonkey• 13 years ago

I think I saw a restaurant owner slashing prices if you just drop your smartphone at the counter before you sit. He was so annoyed of people not 'being' here.

theorique2• 13 years ago

It sounds a lot like an airline club lounge - free food, drink, wifi, printing, etc.

damian2000• 13 years ago

Or a new car dealership service waiting area ... at least one I've been to had all this.

corin_• 13 years ago

If all you're looking for in the comparison is "somewhere to sit, a coffee machine, etc." then it matches many things. GP's point with the airport lounge comparison is that it matches not just in objects but in purpose / business model.

sreevishwa2• 13 years ago

Is this financially viable?

dkuznetsov• 13 years ago

If it's 3 pounds per minute, it's a bit too expensive. If it's 3 pence per minute, it's probably too cheap.

woodylondon• 13 years ago

Genius idea! Long thought that about a space you could turn up, surf the web, chill out. If they have set this up as they describe could feel move like your home away from home. Surf the web, grab a drink, make some new friends etc. Going to check it out soon!

guard-of-terra3• 13 years ago

I'm very fond of anticafes as an idea. We usually gather there to play board games or for birthday parties. AMA :)

You can drink tea and coffee with cookies or you can bring your own cake or you can order pizza/sushi delivery.

We've visited a Ziferblat/Ziferburg in SpB and it's amazing, they're sitting on the top floor of a historic building just opposite Gostinyy Dvor (and near the jealousy-inspiring VK office btw), they even have a piano there.

gms7777• 13 years ago

Clearly the idea has worked in Russia, but I find it hard to see how charging a flat rate can be financially viable. The pricing seems like such a fine line to make it cheap enough for its intended usage (people hanging around and such) but expensive enough to cover the food. As other commenters pointed out already, you could walk in, take a bunch of food and expensive coffee and leave.

I think one way of attacking this problem would be similar to taxi-cab pricing (X for the first mile and Y (where Y<<X) for every subseqeunt one. Essentially adding a flat fee of a few bucks just for walking in, then charging a small amount per minute to hang around.

guard-of-terra3• 13 years ago

They don't offer food (bring your own) just cookies, and you won't realistically chew too many cookies. They also have coffee from coffee machine. The whole idea is to make it feel like home (that many people in the city lack while renting something ugly) - assorted old furniture and a good company.

United857• 13 years ago

They seem to use analog clocks that are given to each customer to record time. What's to prevent someone from (literally) turning the clock back?

guard-of-terra3• 13 years ago

In Ziferburg SpB, every clock is different and have a name written on it, they look up that name in their log and charge you the difference.

So the clock is purely flavour. Other anticafes may just ask for your name and use it as index.

These places usually attract people who are cool. So I won't expect much cheating anyway.

rabz• 13 years ago

Coffee in other places is expensive precisely because the price is a stand-in for table-space and queuing rent. The cafe charges for the opportunity cost of someone peeking in seeing the line too long or the tables too full and running out. Same thing with corkage charges—wine-drinkers longer longer.

The person who runs into a place like this, grabs food and a latte, and runs out is not doin them economic harm.

kushti• 13 years ago

There are probably more than 10 "anticafes" in Saint-Petersburg(as "Ziferblat" had great success after opening in early 2012). Some of them are profitable, AIK. Ziferblat is the good place for hanging out, but too noisy to work(many students playing table games around). If you want to work, better choices are "3rd place"("tretje mesto"), me4ta.tv(far away from center, but best choice probably if you're staying in northern districts of the city) or even IMarussia.

P.S. In Saint-Petersburg's Ziferblat, you can take coffee-to-go for free but donations are highly welcomed.

appplemac2• 13 years ago

Kiev's Ziferblat is a really amazing place: it became a real centre for the city's creative youth with a good selection of free international press (doesn't happen much in Ukraine), nice workshops, movie nights and other stuff. Let's see if Londoners can be as open as Ukrainians.

deet• 13 years ago

The opposite concept can also work: free work space but no outside food or drink.

Next Door in Chicago offers a good work environment (tables, some cubicles and private rooms with excellent internet), and is completely free. Using it for work is encouraged. A cafe inside does very good business from the people who are otherwise there to work (no outside food or drink is allowed) . It's sponsored (by State Farm), so it's possible the cafe might not be able to support the space on it's own, but the fact that an environment where work is explicitly free brings substantial revenue for the cafe suggests that model might be viable.

acjohnson55• 13 years ago

CapitalOne does a 360 Café idea in many places that's quite similar.

Evgeniuz• 13 years ago

I live in Mykolayiv, small city in Ukraine and we have similar venue here called "Moloko" (milk in ukrainian). It's not snacks or tea/coffee that matters, it's community and events that happen there.

Owners actively encourage socialising, there are events almost every day and it hosts several clubs. In fact I just returned a few hours from Mafia club meeting there.

Also, they encourage to host your own events there, for free. I. e. they get paid from visitors and you get venue. You can also take higher price for your event if needed.

pixelcort• 13 years ago

In Japan, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_cafe

Paying per minute reminds me of paying per minute for virtual servers.

patio11• 13 years ago

The manga cafe is one of my favorite Japanese institutions, though the utility is lower now that I'm married. It's a no-notice dirt-cheap hotel (if you're amenable to sleeping in a recliner), a mid-day nap, an instant office-with-a-door, an instant wifi connection and (typically) open outlet, serviceable liquid refreshments, climate controlled like a business rather than Japanese houses (i.e. always tolerable, which is not a hard-and-fast requirement for Japanese apartments/houses), and virtually guaranteed to be tolerant of people at the margins of society [+].

[+] This can be useful if it is 2 AM and you're in a city you don't live in with a face that says "I am at the margins of Japanese society; nobody will fault your hotel if you refuse my business on the excuse that you are fully booked... on a Thursday... but could be unbooked if I were willing to have someone from my office call to vouch for me."

lmm• 13 years ago

The only pay-per-minute cafe I've encountered was a maid cafe in Japan.

jrockway• 13 years ago

Do the waitstaff dress up like characters from popular manga/anime series? If so, this is nothing new.

chippy4• 13 years ago

"nothing new"

For London?

midas007• 13 years ago

Interesting. Moscow has had these for quite a while.

From the owner side, it seems like the way to keep people from buying the cheapest thing and occupying a table.

From the consumption side, is seems like another way to squeeze more money out of people and give another reason to exclude people on basis of economics.

Kiro• 13 years ago

It's funny to see people queueing here to wash their dishes. It's not obligatory, but it's appreciated. They even wash each other's dishes. It's very social.

I don't understand why pay-per-minute would lead to this. Doesn't that mean people are paying to wash other peoples' dishes?

delinka2• 13 years ago

You forget the English stereotype where everyone is always so nice! More seriously, if they're making the place "feel like home" (limited snack options, coffee-machine dreg rather than barista-prepared fluff, etc), then I suspect it's a feeling of community: let's keep the place nice and clean not just for the owners of the building, but also for us, the ones who 'live' here.

chippy4• 13 years ago

Apparently:

In Starbucks in the USA, people take their empty mugs and dishes to the counter.

In Starbucks in the UK, people don't do that - they consider it the cafe's job to clear the tables.

antoinec• 13 years ago

There is the pretty much the same concept in Paris, except that you pay per hour. http://anticafe.fr/en

They have plugs all over the place and the wifi is much better than in any other cafe, which makes it a really nice place for working.

kfk• 13 years ago

So, I run some numbers.

First, all back in Euro, the a 20%VAT gives us:

1.73 per hour

Considering this place is a cafe and runs only during day starting very early, it can run at 12 hrs day. Let's also take the normal accounting standard of 30days per month.

This gives us:

Monthly income: 1.73 x 12 x 30 x X

Where X is the avg hourly nr of people in the cafe'.

Say X is 15 --> Monthly revenue: Eur 9400

Considering 1 waiter at a cost of 4000, rent at a cost of 2000, utilities at a cost of 500, food/coffee at 1000, we have about EUR 2000 of profits for 1 cafe'. Excluding amortizations and other overhead I probably forgot to consider.

But I think 15 hourly is a bit optimistic, how big is this place?

chippy4• 13 years ago

from the article, the image used has more than 15 seats. I counted around 25. Their website has more images: http://london.ziferblat.net/

etanazir• 13 years ago

London's first pay-per-minute cafe

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