Apple’s WWDC-Closing ‘Fuck You’ to iPhone Developers

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/15/arment-wwdc-fu

by dannyr • 17 years ago

228 142 17 years ago

daringfireball.net

sachinag2• 17 years ago

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. First movers such as ngmoco and Tapulous have done well; people with better apps - for free - have failed. Maaaaaaaybe 3.0 makes it easier for niche plays to work; certainly, as far as I can tell, add-on payments aren't supported in Palm's marketplace. I do think the Apple folks are improving the platform. But they act like jerks.

Apple can fuck over iPhone devs, and they do. Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

jsz03• 17 years ago

Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.

ankhmoop3• 17 years ago

It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout.

I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers.

Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press.

Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.

Zev4• 17 years ago

But they act like jerks.

With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree.

To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.

sachinag2• 17 years ago

http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi...

This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.

ankhmoop3• 17 years ago

Apple, Inc., not its individual developers, treats iPhone developers horribly. As a rule, Apple shields itself with layer upon layer of corporate bureaucratic armor, and the value of WWDC is cutting through that nonsense. However, at the one session about the appstore submission process, Apple stonewalled developers.

joubert5• 17 years ago

And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?

jonknee4• 17 years ago

I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.

bluefish• 17 years ago

Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted.

I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).

lacker3• 17 years ago

Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well.

Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.

andrewljohnson2• 17 years ago

I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work.

Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns.

I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone.

People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want.

Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.

gcheong• 17 years ago

I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.

symesc• 17 years ago

So why stay? Love?

brooksbp• 17 years ago

The floggings will continue until morale improves...

lacker3• 17 years ago

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers.

No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform.

Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".

timdorr• 17 years ago

I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal.

I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot.

Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't.

The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.

nuclear_eclipse2• 17 years ago

> Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone.

Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that...

And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process.

The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.

madair3• 17 years ago

Isn't making an NDA for a conference talk about publishing to the app store quite a big fat fuck you too?

Seriously, how much more of this Apple-flagellation are you peeps gonna accept?!?? (Yes _flagellation_.)

heresy• 17 years ago

People will accept it while the market exists.

The alternatives simply do not have the consumer mindshare that the iPhone does, which is unfortunate.

madair3• 17 years ago

Well, from all I'm hearing, it's not like iPhone is the get-rich-quick scheme that lots of devs were hoping for.

I realize some people feel all hip with a iPhone in their pocket, but I don't think the devs really have enough reason to stick with Apple through this behavior.

I certainly don't.

tlrobinson• 17 years ago

I think most (if not all) talks at WWDC are covered by NDA, and have been in recent memory. It's just Apple's style.

Zev4• 17 years ago

Indeed. IIRC, even Stump the Experts was covered by NDA this year — and that definitely doesn't cover anything new.

madair3• 17 years ago

That doesn't make it any less odious. In fact, that makes it MORE odious! You're proving my point. ;-)

ellyagg• 17 years ago

That wasn't a middle finger, it was fear.

zacharypinter2• 17 years ago

I have no objection to Apple running an official App Store with strict rules for compliance. I don't even mind that they take a cut of the profits.

However, I find it utterly reprehensible that Apple doesn't allow developers to distribute their applications on their own. iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased.

jodrellblank5• 17 years ago

iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased.

Why? It's such an entrenched idea, but you don't get to rewrite paragraphs of books, or scenes in films, or suits in a pack of playing cards or the firmware in your alarm clock. The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently?

rbanffy• 17 years ago

There is a fundamental difference. It's not like rewriting parts of your book, but about preventing you from using your book as a monitor stand when you no longer want to read it.

The iPhone and iPod Touch are, unlike the average alarm clock, single purpose machines implemented on top of general purpose ones. I see many good reasons to want to change the firmware, use your own iPhone on your carrier and pay full price for unlocked units. If it's yours you should be allowed to do anything with it.

thras• 17 years ago

Come on. Playing card companies don't spend money and time to restrict the "playing card platform." Alarm clocks don't even have firmware to restrict and alarm clock companies don't care one way or another if their users take them apart and mess with the circuit boards.

Apple, on the other hand, has worked pretty damn hard to restrict their customers from being able to install their own software. That is very much a "fuck you" direct from Steve Jobs.

zacharypinter2• 17 years ago

That's a valid question.

I tend to take it as a given, considering that the iPhone is essentially a miniature computer and the past decade or so has thrived on customizable, hackable personal computers.

Apple has always wanted to assert extra control on the products they ship. With Mac's, they've controlled the hardware. Now they're trying to control the software. Imagine a version of OS X where every application had to be approved. Does that not strike you as horribly wrong? I wouldn't want to use an operating system with those restrictions, though I imagine the best response to such an OS would be to not purchase it.

lutorm• 17 years ago

Oh but I do get to rewrite paragraphs in books to my hearts desire. I may not be allowed to sell the books so made to others, but in the privacy of my own home I get to do what ever I want. Not so in the case of the iphone et al.

zmimon• 17 years ago

> The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently?

Wow. It's almost sickening to see the inversion of the principles of software freedom that Apple is able to get away with and not get criticized in the fanboi community. Geeks have been lambasting Microsoft for merely having proprietary formats for 20 years. They even got fined for billions of dollars just for not documenting their protocols well enough. Now Apple plays god and controls every single application that can ever even run on a platform. They make developers sign NDAs that prevent them even talking about technical details of the platform publicly. They do these things that are the antithesis of everything the open software community have been trying to achieve for the last 15 years and not only do people like yourself give it a pass, you go out of your way to stand up and defend it. I find it breathtaking.

amalcon• 17 years ago

Yes I do. Well, maybe not alarm clock firmware, but if I want to, I can easily rewrite a paragraph of a book (or even insert and remove entire pages if I like). I may be unhappy with the resulting quality, but it's my choice to make. If I want a deck of cards with five suits, I can easily add the extra suit. I remember a cut of Star Wars 1 surfacing at one point that omitted Jar-Jar; while distributing this cut was a copyright violation, creating it certainly was not.

Now, of course, this doesn't restrict Apple from building in mechanisms to prevent this sort of thing. I won't buy their device because of them, but I doubt this bothers Steve Jobs one bit.

jamesbritt• 17 years ago

"It's such an entrenched idea, but you don't get to rewrite paragraphs of books, or scenes in films, or suits in a pack of playing cards or the firmware in your alarm clock. "

It's entrenched idea because, for most of these, I do get to do those things. I'm free to rip pages out of the books I own, or write in the margin, or re-word stuff with white-out and a pen. I'm free to mix several decks of cards to make my own weird set. I would expect I can hack on my alarm clock too, except I have no idea how to alter the firmware. :) I have "re-purposed" analog mechanical clocks. And why not? I owned them.

Why should "as is" mean "stays as"?

GHFigs10• 17 years ago

iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased.

They can. It is the iPhone OS, which they do not own, that does not support this.

ankhmoop3• 17 years ago

No, it's the boot loader, locked to the device that they own, that actively blocks loading unsigned software.

kevbin• 17 years ago

"The content of sessions is under NDA, so I can’t tell you what it was about."

Without knowing the content, I'm reluctant to criticize the decision not to take questions since I remember one WWDC session where one developer (let's call him "dw") destroyed an AppleScript session with his Q&A ranting.

joezydeco• 17 years ago

I asked a coworker who went to WWDC about this incident, and it went down nothing like Marco said.

Yes, Apple engineers skipped the Q&A, but were all available at the foot of the stage after the presentation to take individual (and off-the-record) questions.

paulgb• 17 years ago

The App Store team simply knew what the questions were going to be like and were unwilling to face them.

I haven't been following WWDC very closely, did Apple do something major to piss off developers? Or is Marco referring to general App Store issues?

loginx2• 17 years ago

I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps, then shell out another $99 just to use the SDK. This means that after purchasing their already expensive phone, I need to shell out close to $1,000 just for the privilege of writing apps. I'm in the market for a new phone right now, and I was really strongly considering an iPhone until I realized that those were the restrictions for writing apps. I'm currently thinking of getting an Android phone, but in Canada, the HTC-rebranded android phones have been heavily modified by HTC... what could possibly go wrong!!

marbletiles• 17 years ago

I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps

It's not difficult to understand: the iPhone is based on a version of OS X, so when Apple came to write the developer tools, they extended the OS X developer tools. These, unsurprisingly, are OS X native.

You may not agree with it, but it's not incomprehensible.

dca2• 17 years ago

The iPhone is slick. Its got an amazing UI for a mobile device. The input is clever. Its very shiny.

But having had one for about 2 years, 1 year of which it was only about 60% functional due to an "insensitive" touch screen, and having lived with the less than friendly support staff, I'm pretty confident in saying that's about as deep as it goes.

Its very shiny. Its designed to look pretty in Walmart and in AT&T stores and in Apple stores. Its designed to have nifty little IMHO useless widgets that impress your friends in 2 minute water cooler conversations.

But when it came time for me to finally buy a new phone, there was no way in hell I was buying an iPhone.

Thus, this article surprises me in no way. I had no interest in developing for the thing as soon as I read the license agreement, especially after having used it for a while.

It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better.

stanleydrew• 17 years ago

Android doesn't do it for you?

darshan2• 17 years ago

It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better.

Have you not heard of Android? Developer friendliness? Check. Openness? Check. Support? Check. Price? Check.

Google is spectacular in all of these regards. Android is open source, and Google is throwing serious weight into making things extremely easy for developers. It's not without its problems, but I give it an 'A' in every area you brought up.

dca2• 17 years ago

You're absolutely right - for the points I explicitly listed Android is probably fine. My problem with the Android was different - I couldn't seem to get my hands on one. Plus I wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea of switching to T-Mobile anyway.

Also, I merged a bunch of ideas together and probably rushed that reply. I'm horrible at posting to forums like this because I almost never get up the nerve to do it.

Anyway, if Android was more available (i.e. if the O/S was adopted by a major cellphone manufacturer like a Nokia or Motorola across many different models on multiple carriers), and I could have easily got my hands on one, I would have bought that instead. But as far as I know its only available at T-Mobile, and only in the form of the G1, and was only maybe available at this one T-Mobile store that was quite a drive from here. Many other phones are easily available within a very short drive, so that's what I ended up with.

kaiser• 17 years ago

Developer friendliness/ support? I only played with the first Android release so far. Yet, honestly, for me the Iphone developer documentation and support seem by far better.

Openness? Why do I still have to jailbreak and unlock an Android phone, when it is so open? (Rhetorical Question)

Price? Yes, check if you want phones with really bad battery lifetime (so far, let's see when a decent phone comes out, I might reconsider).

Btw, is it true that you can only use the phones if you have a google account and that there are several phone home features in the phone?

miles• 17 years ago

Why not link to the original story, instead of blog spam (albeit from a famous blogger)?

Trust, hostility, and the human side of Apple http://www.marco.org/122990476

danw• 17 years ago

Seconded. It's link-jacking and Grubber isn't adding anything to the discussion himself.

danbmil99• 17 years ago

Apple has always been a bunch of douchebags. In their own way, they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday.

Power corrupts etc. What I can't understand is why there's this tendency to rub people's face in how successful and powerful you are (ie the session as described by OP). It speaks of an underlying insecurity. If you are the alpha dog and know it, you should not be afraid to face your underlings squarely and tell them "hey, I'm alpha dog, I don't need to explain every decision I make". You know, like "I'm the Decider".

But that would be too direct and honest for the mamsy-pamsy, passive-aggressive Silicon Valley style of "fuck you", which is something like "Oh, that's nice. What, did you ask me another question? I thought you had left already."

davidw3• 17 years ago

> they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday.

A significant portion of the reason why Microsoft dominated is because Apple wanted to control the hardware and the software. Microsoft was more than willing to settle for 'just' the software, running on top of a more or less open hardware platform. The Mac was better, earlier than Windows, and continued to be for a while. But outside of a brief window, you could only buy one from Apple - there was no vendor competition.

shimi2• 17 years ago

If MS would have enforce such a strict policy on Windows, imagine how many stability and security issues would have been solved in an instance.

But this is just a pipe dream, there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices, on the other hand Apple are well with in their right to do so.

cubicle673• 17 years ago

> ... there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices ...

You mean like the Zune or XBox?

shimi2• 17 years ago

Doesn't matter which product,

pierattt2• 17 years ago

We've recently submitted an app to the iTunes store and Apple has been nothing but forthcoming and helpful. The review process took the expected 7 days, at which point we got a personal call from an Apple representative who let us know that they weren't going to be able to take the software as-is (the name was too weird). He then offered to bump the app to the top of the queue once we'd made the necessary revisions.

Not trying to negate the negative experiences of other developers, but I do think a lot of this is a case of an understandably pissed-off minority.

pierattt2• 17 years ago

Oh, funny, Daring Fireball just linked to my developer's account of his experience with this:

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/app-store-trend

stse• 17 years ago

The consumer has been screwed so long, regarding mobile phones, that we think it's normal by now. I mean, overlapping networks when wifi is widely available, roaming charges, paying extreme prices per megabyte when sending a text message. If intel would start restricting which OS you could run on there processors, people would go crazy. Microsoft must even provide a IE free version of windows in Europe.