Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/10/17/china_bond_purchases_stop_being_wrong.html

by patdennis • 13 years ago

90 132 13 years ago

westicle• 13 years ago

> Since it's not an investment, it's not an investment the Chinese can lose faith in. And it's certainly not a favor to the United States of America.

I have no formal background in economics, but I'd really appreciate it if someone who does could explain this statement in some context.

I would have thought as a general rule: a debtor at risk (even theoretical risk) of default constitutes a concern to its creditor.

I also don't see what giving favours has to do with buying and selling bonds.

huply• 13 years ago

Looking at the whole article, the author is making the argument that the Chinese do not "invest" for monetary gain or loss, but rather use the Treasury purchases as a way to decrease their supply of dollars (a strategy necessary to keep their currency devalued, worth less than it would be if it were fairly traded without central bank intervention).

While it certainly is correct that a debtor at risk would have some concern for default, the point of the article is that (the author asserts) China doesn't particularly care for the stream of interest payments on it's bonds, or even the principal payment back at maturity, but rather the tool that the "investment vehicle" (Treasury) provides, it is China's most powerful weapon in sustaining its relatively devalued currency.

onebaddude• 13 years ago

I have no formal background in economics, but I'd really appreciate it if someone who does could explain this statement in some context.

There is constant fear that someday China (and the rest of the world) will simply lose faith in the credit of the US and stop buying bonds. In the same way that you might decide CitiGroup is no longer a good investment, and stop buying (or selling) their bonds.

But in reality, it's not like the Chinese are looking around at all the sovereign debt in the world and deciding where to put their money. They have an excess of dollars from the sale of manufactured goods to go put to use. They could spend those dollars on American made products (and they do, to some degree), but the Chinese economy isn't quite in need of most of what we manufacture yet, and they have a lot of dollars to get rid of. So they buy US bonds. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I'm glad some of this is reaching the mainstream media. I'm no expert myself, but this crisis, and the past few years have revealed that when it comes to the economy, we have a very misinformed, ignorant population.

rtkwe• 13 years ago

I don't fully understand the authors reasoning either but one thing that is highly misunderstood about the bonds is that a) they're not callable, meaning that borrowers can't suddenly decide that they want to get their investment back and b) China while the largest foreign national holder of US bonds (iirc) holds >10% of the issued bonds. Almost all bonds are held here in the US in things like mutual funds and by retail investors.

aliston4• 13 years ago

30% of treasury bonds are owned by the Fed, and in some recent auctions, the Fed has purchased as much as 90% of the new issuance. We would have a major problem if China were to dump their bonds on the market because there aren't too many buyers when you're at such low interest rates.

RyanZAG3• 13 years ago

Some people believe that China buying US government bonds is a favour to USA as it allows the US government to spend all of this money coming in on various government projects, such as military spending and social security. If China stopped supplying that money, the US government would have to print it themselves (for free), which would lower the value of US currency. Some people believe this is a good thing, and others believe it's a bad thing. There are so many complex and mostly untested effects at play that I'd be a bit worried if anyone claims to have the one true answer here.

  Pro for China buying bonds
  - US government has more money to stimulate economy
  - US dollar remains strong, so buying from offshore is cheap
  - Higher quality of living in USA means more people can
    spend time inventing new industries

  Con for China buying bonds
  - US dollar weaker, US firms are under-priced when exporting
  - When China stops buying bonds it will cause a shock effect
    on US economy
  - Higher quality of living in USA means less people are forced
    to invent new industries or starve
  - US government is wasting the money on stuff like TSA instead
    of using it to grow the economy

These are just off the top of my head. There are far more effects and knock-on effects. Anybody trying to tell you this stuff is simple just doesn't understand it themselves.

jbooth3• 13 years ago

A favor? There's no such thing as a favor.

The US offers bonds in $ at a certain very low interest rate and China buys them in order to maintain their low yuan valuation. As stated in the article, this is to manipulate currency prices for domestic reasons to keep their exported goods "cheap" in terms of the global reserve currency, dollars.

Your cons are all messed up. They're making the dollar stronger and the yuan weaker, deliberately, and that makes our firms over-priced when exporting. We've had 1% inflation for like 5 years now.

If they didn't have that industrial policy, we'd probably have to be selling our 30-year tbonds at 3-4% instead of sub-1% as they are now. They do have the policy, so we should frankly be selling more bonds and spending the money on infrastructure, but hey, that's a hard story to sell for some reason.

bkmartin• 13 years ago

Please do not lump Social Security as part of the problem. That program is solvent. Your main point is correct, but maybe medicare is a better example since it is not a self sustaining program.

bradleyjg3• 13 years ago

The most important metric is excessive inflation, and the secondary one is exchange rates (though changes in that have mixed effects). These are empirical facts of the matter.

There's lots of theories about how this or that or the other thing might cause high inflation and/or devaluation. But when you look at the track record of these theories they are pretty horrible. QE1 and QE2 was supposed to lead to imminent hyperinflation. It didn't happen. The S&P downgrade was supposed to lead to yield spikes in treasuries (which in turn was supposed to lead to heavy inflation). It didn't happen. Deficit spending was supposed to lead to bond vigilantes coming out of the woodwork and cause catastrophic inflation. It didn't happen.

As a formal matter the government doesn't even need to issue bonds. Under this view (which broadly speaking goes by the name MMT) the government doesn't have a budget per se at all. When a bill comes due they can just create dollars out of thin air to pay it. When taxes or other fees are paid to the government they don't get stored anywhere to be used to pay bills, but instead cease to exist. Advocates of MMT suggest that the government tweak outflows and inflows not with the aim of balancing a non-existing budget but rather based on managing observed metrics (mainly inflation).

Critics claim that a move to such a system would cause hyperinflation. Who knows, they might even be right for once. The important take away is that the US government is not just a really big household, and US treasury bonds are not just like a credit card.

aliston4• 13 years ago

The reason we haven't seen inflation is that, despite all the printing, the money supply has not increased since 2008. This is because the velocity of money and the money multiplier have both decreased significantly since the financial crisis -- in essence, people are not borrowing or spending the way that they were in 2008. If people aren't spending, you aren't going to get inflation... until you do.

anoncowherd6• 13 years ago

> I have no formal background in economics, but I'd really appreciate it if someone who does could explain this statement in some context.

Ignore the mainstream "Talking Heads" -economists in the media - they serve two main purposes: 1) Help Wall Street fleece unsuspecting "retail investors", and 2) Maintain the illusion that everything is alright.

Austrian Economics is right, and everything else is either wrong or meant to mislead you.

You see, you shouldn't be thinking naughty thoughts like: "Since I personally can't keep living beyond my means for ever and ever, why could any government? Don't the 'laws' of economics apply to governments?" (Hint: they do.)

Go forth and educate thyself: http://mises.org

( Oh, and ignore all the clueless pontificators on HN too )

anoncowherd6• 13 years ago

Downvote me all you want, but I'm right. Yes, I do realize that's not an argument.

jusben13692• 13 years ago

Keynes is consistently proven to be far more accurate and effective than the Austrian school of thought. Keynes mets so much resistance because it's counter intuitive. Very literal thinkers have trouble with that and are attracted to the Austrian way of thinking.

brohee• 13 years ago

Someone let Dread Pirate Robert out?

rayiner• 13 years ago

Characterizing it as a "favor" isn't helpful. It's more appropriate to say that there is more to the calculus than just the actual loan. Holding US debt has a direct benefit to China, but also an indirect benefit (it allows the U.S. to keep running huge trade deficits, which benefits Chinese manufacturing). If you look at just the return and risk on the debt, China's actions might not make sense, but if you look at the whole picture they do. At least, that's what the article is trying to get at.

balabaster• 13 years ago

If anyone thinks that anyone does anything as "a favour to the United States of America", they're deluded. The only reason China (or any other country for that matter) would do a favour like this for the U.S. is that it suits their own political agenda, whatever that may be. I'd be concerned that it's for less obvious reasons then artificially subsidizing their own exchange rate.

efalcao2• 13 years ago

I think the author is making the point that the simple act of buying the bonds is accomplishing their goal.

They don't care what the return is, they just want to offload dollars. If you don't care about the return, then something is not an investment - the quality of the borrower (based on their ability/history of repayment) is moot.

jusben13692• 13 years ago

The author is stating they don't do it because they believe the US is a good place (or not) to place their money (the usual criteria you would use when deciding amongst competing choices of where to put your money) They do it as a mechanism to achieve another goal: an artificially low value of their own currency. This is so their goods look cheap(er) to other countries. That in turn keeps employment high and social unrest low. That means less resistance to one party rule.

velodrome• 13 years ago

War is made less likely as a function of economic interdependence.

http://web.mit.edu/~sabrevln/Public/GameTheory/Journal%20of%...

cinquemb• 13 years ago

I think that is really interesting because from what it seems based on events around the world, the economic interdependence between nation states has grown at the same time people within nation states economic realities are becoming more decoupled from that growth. From that decoupling, conflict emerges from which hasn't been seen before in the way that it is evolving now.

yxhuvud5• 13 years ago

Yes, that was a popular theory around 1900 to 1914, when global trade as a part of global GDP reached a long term maxima that took a very long time to break (if it has been broken?).

Then came a set of World Wars.

scott_s6• 13 years ago

I think it's strange to talk about this without mentioning the concept of reserve currency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

It's not just China that has a lot of investment in US dollars - and no matter what the policy reason is, it is an investment because their wealth is tied up in the status of the US economy.

Now, our reserve currency status is something that China, along with the rest of the world, can lose faith in. And if they lose faith - because of, say, a default - then there's a serious risk that the US is no longer the reserve currency. And if the US is no longer the world's reserve currency, then a lot less other countries will buy US Treasury bonds, and US easy credit and privileged trade status will end.

Planet Money podcast, "Why The World Still Needs Dollars": http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/12/139583229/the-frid...

dllthomas3• 13 years ago

I've not been following the connection between currency valuation and threat of default. I'm not sure if it's just my not seeing some connection (certainly possible) or others conflating things that aren't actually connected. Why should I expect less demand for my dollar a week after a US default?

scott_s6• 13 years ago

US dollars are the world's currency hub. Let's pretend that there was only one airline hub in the country, and we're going to say that it's Atlanta, because I always seem to use that as my connection. (Atlanta is a hub, but it's not the hub.)

Let's also assume that you have to use the hub, no matter where you fly. It's easy to see in this scenario that Atlanta will now enjoy a special status as an airport; everyone has to use it, even if they're not sending passengers to Atlanta. Now, let's say that the Atlanta infrastructure starts doing poorly - the ground crews don't get luggage from plane to plane fast enough, the controllers aren't good at scheduling flights - anything we can think of that will cause delayed flights. If flights are delayed often enough, then Atlanta's value as a hub goes down. If Atlanta's value as a hub goes down enough, airlines may try to move to a hub somewhere else. Atlanta, then, no longer enjoys all of the perks that come with having every flight in the country routed through them.

This is a cartoon, of course. Nor is the analogy perfect. But I think it gets the big idea across: when people do international transactions, US dollars are often involved. Even when neither side of the transaction is actually in dollars. US dollars are the world's reserve currency: the US is a large, stable economy, and the main instrument for storing dollars, US Treasury bonds, is the most stable security around.

If US Treasury bonds cease to be the most stable security around, then we have violated a basic assumption of the global economy. The rest of the world may try to move away from the US dollar as the world's reserve currency, which means the US would no longer enjoy the special status of being the world's currency hub.

Adam Davidson (who does Planet Money, which I linked to above) has a NY Times column explaining that in the short term, investors may buy more Treasury bonds immediately after a default, but in the long term, we would still likely lose our reserve status. See, "Our Debt to Society": http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/magazine/our-debt-to-socie...

dnm• 13 years ago

So what they choose to do instead is to purchase lots of US government debt.

Isn't "purchase debt" the same as "give a loan?" Is he saying China is not buying US T-Notes and Bonds? I don't understand how the US Treasury would not be liable for paying back the principal and interest on the bond. And not paying it back is the definition of a default.

brazzy• 13 years ago

The article argues that China is much less concerned about getting those payments than someone giving a loan would typically be (and thus much less likely to stop the practice if they don't get those payments) because they do it primarily to keep the exchange rate favorable for China's industry.

igravious• 13 years ago

If country A (China) purchases the debt of country B (US of A) then "purchase debt" in that context is the same as B "issues a bond" which is the same as B "gives a loan". Yes. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

I don't understand how the US Treasury would not be liable for paying back the principal and interest on the bond.

The US Treasury is liable, yes - but here is the catch that is never mentioned in any of these articles - at what rate? All these bonds are maturing at different times and have different rates of interest, right? So what would be helpful is that rather than saying that country B owes country A n trillion in total is if we were told how much per month (or year, or whatever) it is costing to service the loan - that would make it real. Note, IANAE.

Fuxy• 13 years ago

Whatever the reason for the investment a debt is still a debt.

ck2• 13 years ago

The biggest comfort about China buying all our debt is they are less likely to invade or nuke us because it would destroy them economically.

jfb2• 13 years ago

Two problems with this: the first Yglesias covers in the OP; the second, that China could nuke us, even if they wanted to.

dllthomas3• 13 years ago

What would stop China from nuking us if they wanted to?

jbooth3• 13 years ago

It's this context (China buying a ton of dollars to maintain their pegged value for the yuan) that completely destroys the Econ 101 theory that say the US should have massive inflation with our low interest rates and quantitative easement that's been happening.

That's why the various gold-standard fans and whoever have been saying "hyperinflation any day now" for the last 5 years and we're still rocking sub-1%.

a8da6b0c91d4• 13 years ago

If the Chinese dumped their bonds interest rates would spike and this would be a crisis for the USA. This guy doesn't seem to get that.

polymatter• 13 years ago

it would also be a crisis for China (and thereafter the rest of the world)

a8da6b0c91d4• 13 years ago

The issue is that the global diet for treasuries artificially holds down interest rates. If purchases slowed or holdings were sold, interest rates would rise. Whether it would be a crisis or merely hurt is a marginal distinction.

The government of the USA would go bankrupt in months if interest rates rose to 5%, which is an historically normal figure.

dev1n• 13 years ago

Bonds aren't callable.

a8da6b0c91d4• 13 years ago

You can sell bonds.

hannibal5• 13 years ago

That would be worse for China because the value of CNY would skyrocket stopping their exports. Value of USD would plummet helping US exports.

Besides, China and foreigners are not anywhere near the biggest buyers of US debt. Fed is. Chinese and Japanese had actually five month net selling period earlier this year.

a8da6b0c91d4• 13 years ago

It's rather tricky to predict how a Chinese decision to appreciate the rmb would play out in practice. Many export powerhouses have had very strong currencies for long periods. It's not as simple as saying US exports would go up and the Chinese economy would suffer. You have to consider that the Chinese have savings and would find themselves far richer in global commodities. You also have to consider the US economy's heavy dependence on freakishly low interest rates.

aliston4• 13 years ago

It would be a crisis so long as China remains an export-driven manufacturing-based economy. But, as China becomes wealthier, knowledge-based economy, it won't be as big a deal. With 1/6th of the world's population, I would think there would be plenty of domestic buyers.

code4life• 13 years ago

Today China in essence suppresses the standard of living of it's productive sector. They do this by not allowing the exporters to keep the dollars they earn. Instead the exporters are forced to trade those dollars in for Chinese currency which is artificially pegged against the dollar. This means the exporters immediately lose value.

What the author completely fails to understand is that this is another possible outcome: * China decides to increase the standard of living of it's citizen * China slowly increases their currency peg to be closer to the value of the dollar * The exporters slowly have a higher profit, and thus the people a higher standard of living * The united states slowly lowers it's standard of living

Of course this is one possible outcome. However, the idea that the Chinese are forced to buy our bonds is ridiculous. They could just buy 1T in oil, copper, or other dollar based commodities. There are plenty of options besides treasuries.

darkarmani• 13 years ago

China slowly increases their currency peg to be closer to the value of the dollar -- The exporters slowly have a higher profit, and thus the people a higher standard of living

Exporters can't export if the price of their goods increase. It's not that easy to unroll their current scheme.

They could just buy 1T in oil, copper, or other dollar based commodities. There are plenty of options besides treasuries.

How does one transport and store trillions of dollars of commodities (someone has to store them even if they are ETFs)? Besides, these commodities have a lot more risk compared to t-bonds. If the were able to get the same security as t-bonds in something else, you know they'd be buying those as well.

randomafrican3• 13 years ago

I think the outcome you outline is very well understood by the author. He clearly says:

This is Chinese industrial policy and it is conducted for domestic Chinese political reasons and will end some day for domestic Chinese political reasons.

yxhuvud5• 13 years ago

No, the chinese workers have a lesser standard of living because the suppressed value of the currency takes away from the value they can purchase with their wages.

It will even out in the long run as wage inflation will be impossible to fight while keeping down the value of the currency.

drcode3• 13 years ago

Here's my simplified way of thinking about it:

The Chinese government wants its citizens to be relatively poor. Why? because then it can use them as cheap labor that is a valuable tool to leverage on the world stage. Plus, poverty stifles political activism.

How does it keep its people poor? Well, by making sure a USD spent in China can buy 4x as much rice/milk/chicken/etc in China as it can in the US. This will mean income of Chinese workers and merchants will also remain low. How does it do this? By keeping the value of the yuan low, by direct manipulation of the currency, which it pays for by a high import tariff. (Which, again, makes Chinese people poorer by making things coming from outside the country very expensive.)

By using this strategy, the Chinese government uses its people as underpriced laborers that give it a huge export surplus and which it can use to influence world events, as well as to generate vast government capital (essentially capital it is withholding from its citizens) it can use to invest in foreign companies/governments.

(Of course now the picture is muddying somewhat because the extreme GDP growth is making many Chinese wealthy anyway, despite all these obstacles.)

gameshot911• 13 years ago

>By using this strategy, the Chinese government uses its people as underpriced laborers that give it a huge export surplus and which it can use to influence world events, as well as to generate vast government capital (essentially capital it is withholding from its citizens) it can use to invest in foreign companies/assets.

To what end? Let's say this is true, and let's also say that its strategy is successful. What is achieved if the end goal is not to better it's populace? And if it's goal is to better it's populace, why keep them down now at all and not immediately trying to improve the well-being of its citizens?

mathattack3• 13 years ago

I don't see it this way. The policy of cheap exports is actually to keep their people employed. Whatever they would be doing if they weren't exporting would keep them poorer than what they're doing today.

In addition, the large amount of foreign debt holdings gives them a claim on future output (or land, or other capital) of other countries. That gives the county geopolitical strength.

randomafrican3• 13 years ago

Poorer and more idle people are also more dangerous.

skue2• 13 years ago

Plus, poverty stifles political activism.

Do you have evidence to back that up? I can think of a number of examples to the contrary offhand: The French Revolution was preceded by a financial crisis and poverty, as was the rise of the Nazism in Germany. There's Mohamed Bouazizi, the poor and repressed fruit vendor who helped launch the Arab Spring in Tunisia. And even the Occupy and Tea Party movements that have each arisen in response to the economic situation within the US.

efalcao2• 13 years ago

No Godwin

klenwell• 13 years ago

One of the interesting points I heard made in discussion of the Arab Spring is that it's not the poor but more privileged classes that generally spark revolutions. Here's the Wall Street Journal on the subject (I think I originally heard the idea on NPR):

While the poor struggle to survive from day to day, disappointed middle-class people are much more likely to engage in political activism to get their way.

This dynamic was evident in the Arab Spring, where regime-changing uprisings were led by tens of thousands of relatively well-educated young people. Both Tunisia and Egypt had produced large numbers of college graduates over the past generation. But the authoritarian governments of Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarak were classic crony-capitalist regimes, in which economic opportunities depended heavily on political connections. Neither country, in any event, had grown fast enough economically to provide jobs for ever-larger cohorts of young people. The result was political revolution.

None of this is a new phenomenon. The French, Bolshevik and Chinese Revolutions were all led by discontented middle-class individuals, even if their ultimate course was later affected by peasants, workers and the poor.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732387390...

I think both Occupy and Tea Party movements fit this model. College kids mired in debt who can't find decent jobs. Aging white middle class conservatives watching the financial class run away with the lion's share of economic growth (while being led to believe that's it's being siphoned off by immigrants, welfare queens, and gay married couples).

Also brings to mind the old "Revolution to Conserve" idea I was introduced to back in AP American History:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Rossiter

drcode3• 13 years ago

Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

randomafrican3• 13 years ago

While i agree on the relatively poor part, i'm not so sure about this:

>Plus, poverty stifles political activism.

It's very likely that the goalfor the Chinese government is to avoid being overthrown by keeping control on how much and how fast the citizen get richer. Keeping them relatively poor guarantees that investments in future growth and future employment keep up rather than turning too soon into a more mature economy that keeps up with domestic demand.

And there's some kind of political argument about equality and history that i would make if only i could manage to sort it out in my head first.

hencq• 13 years ago

It is simplified, but it is also wrong. If you're looking for a simplified explanation, the article doesn't do too bad a job. China has lifted over half a billion people out of poverty in the last 30 years. Dismissing that as a side effect of trying to "influence world events" is, frankly, preposterous.

drcode3• 13 years ago

Well, I think the Chinese people are the one who pulled themselves out of poverty, and they did this * in spite of * the government, not * because of * it.

w_t_payne• 13 years ago

Isn't it also an artefact of the way that the Chinese financial industry is regulated?

grimtrigger2• 13 years ago

But that's all it is. It's not an investment.

Ridiculous, simply untrue.

Currency manipulation explains the conversion from yuan to dollars, but not from dollars to t-bills.

Why would China convert dollars to t-bills if they didn't see t-bills as a better investment than dollars?

scott_s6• 13 years ago

I mostly agree, but they don't really have much of a choice. They have to put the dollars somewhere, and when you're dealing with that many, Treasury bills are really the only game in town.

grimtrigger2• 13 years ago

Why not a commercial bank or an investment fund?

k2enemy• 13 years ago

It is explained in the article.

   But the Chinese government for various reasons
   wants to subsidize Chinese manufacturing. So they 
   want to send those dollars they accumulate back to 
   the United States.

China wants to send the dollars back to the US so that we can repeat the cycle. They could do it by buying US goods or stocks and the author explains why they don't. So the alternative is to buy treasuries.

yxhuvud5• 13 years ago

Because they see it as an investment in their own industry.

lazydon• 13 years ago

Peter Schiff explains this by taking example of two trading islands in his book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Economy-Grows-Why-Crashes/dp/04705... It's a fascinating book that mostly appeals to Austrians though but a good one to grasp fundamentals.

Also, Sal Khan has this video on the topic: https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-fi...

JackFr• 13 years ago

As an identity, the capital account between two countries -- payments made for capital: land, buildings, financial assets, etc. must equal the current account payments made for goods and services.

When we buy stuff from China, they get dollars. If you have a surplus of dollars you want to invest them in something, and that something has to be dollar denominated. Treasury bonds are safe, liquid and politically palatable for all sides.

If we stopped buying their stuff, they would stop buying our bonds. If they stopped buying our bonds, they would have to find somewhere else to invest dollars.

(Interesting side note -- this dilemma is what led to the creation of the Eurodollar market -- in the early 1970's the Soviet Union had dollars from oil sales (the international crude oil market is dollar denominated) and they did not want to put the money into US domiciled banks -- so the London banks said we will accept dollar deposits, but are not accountable to the Fed or other US authorities in these accounts (nor can we borrow at the Fed window) and thus was born the eurodollar.)

avn2109• 13 years ago

This is a bit of history which they never mentioned in Econ class. Politically inconvenient for some actors and very interesting.

ausjke• 13 years ago

when you owe too much, you become the one in absolute control, the loaner will pray for your good health before he goes to bed every night, that says it all.

dageshi• 13 years ago

It's at least as much about control. The Chinese don't want people to be able to push their currency around because they fear the destabilising effect of money surging in and out of the country and throwing the exchange rate around.

So they have massive dollar holdings in one hand and a central bank that can print money in another. Effectively they can control their exchange rate from either side.

mathattack3• 13 years ago

The author is very smart, and more trained in economics than I am, but I still disagree with some of what he says.

China is doing us two favors:

1) If they weren't buying our debt, someone else would. Without a large buyer like China, we would have to pay higher rates on our borrowing. This would trickle down to mortgages too, since China is a big investor in Fannie and Freddie debt, and mortgage backed securities.

2) Chinese goods are cheaper because of this policy. One could argue our domestic industry is less competitive, but on the surface, cheaper goods are better than more expensive goods. We benefit from the subsidy.

jonknee2• 13 years ago

1) If they weren't buying our debt, someone else would. Without a large buyer like China, we would have to pay higher rates on our borrowing. This would trickle down to mortgages too, since China is a big investor in Fannie and Freddie debt, and mortgage backed securities.

The point is without the US dollar being propped up against the Chinese Yuan we wouldn't need to borrow as much because exports would be much higher (leading to more jobs, higher tax revenue, etc).

2) Chinese goods are cheaper because of this policy. One could argue our domestic industry is less competitive, but on the surface, cheaper goods are better than more expensive goods. We benefit from the subsidy.

Conversely, American goods are more expensive because of this policy. It's difficult to say if we benefit from the Chinese government subsidizing Chinese manufacturing. The price gap is beginning to close because of rising Chinese wages and US manufacturing is becoming more competitive (our wages are still markedly higher, but the shipping costs are much much lower), so it should be interesting to watch the next few years. Especially with the very low cost natural gas supply that's coming online in North America.

mathattack3• 13 years ago

On point 1 - I agree with you in theory, in that anything we spend externally needs to be paid for by either selling something against it, or borrowing. This is Germany's issue too: they lend people money, so that others can buy their goods. My sense is that the Chinese aren't propping the currency up as much as they used to, but that's not based on hard data.

On 2 - In general countries (though not necessarily specific individuals and companies) do better with cheaper goods. This is why the gains of trade almost always exceed the costs. The question is does a forced cheapening by China create inefficiencies by moving us to tasks that we don't have competitive advantage? I don't know the answer.

Good discussion, and I appreciate your insights into economics.

apostate• 13 years ago

One thing that I don't see mentioned often enough in discussions about China's US debt holdings is how much they actually hold. It's less than 10% of the total US debt, and about a quarter of all foreign-held debt. [1]

They are still the biggest foreign owner of US debt, but the majority of treasuries are owned by US entities (households, corporations, state and local governments, the social security trust, and government agencies that purchase treasuries when they have excess revenue). Of course I would count the Fed's massive holding of treasuries as separate from all of this, and there is plenty to worry about with our debt situation. My point is that China is far from "owning" the US.

[1] http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/ti...

CrunchyJams• 13 years ago

Wow, where to begin...

1). Interest and principle on USTs are paid in USD, so the notion that the Chinese government simply "wants to send those dollars back to the US" is bunk since they're ultimately getting more back

2). If the Chinese government wanted to directly influence USD value, they could also simply hold onto the USD as currency reserves to take it out of the market / reduce supply

By buying US debt, China is doing the same as the Fed: lowering yields/increasing prices of USTs via increased demand. This allows the government to keep borrowing large amounts, which in theory should offer the cash needed to continue buying Chinese goods.

Moreover, USTs are by far the most liquid high-grade paper available. Pretty much the only possible investment to support volume of the size China needs.

And, while not likely to be used in the near term, this is absolutely an investment in defense. Chinese officials have openly supported the notion that large holdings of Japanese debt could be used as a crippling weapon, why wouldn't that apply to the US?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9551727/Be...

winfred• 13 years ago

And, while not likely to be used in the near term, this is absolutely an investment in defense.

How? By dumping them below market rate? US/JPN will just print money and buy them.

If ever there is a war between these nations, these bonds become worthless overnight. Make no mistake, these T bonds are liabilities for China, not the other way around.

Lost_BiomedE• 13 years ago

If the Chinese gov did that after loading up on gold, and backed the chinese currency with a fraction of gold, they would have a much better chance of convincing others to drop the US dollar as a reserve currency.

How do you go broke? Slowly, then all at once.

cs702• 13 years ago

Step-by-step, in plan English: (1) China sells stuff to US buyers, who pay with US dollars. (2) A US dollar is essentially a made-up financial instrument "backed by the full faith and credit" of the US -- it has value only because US laws make it so -- that is, by government fiat. (3) China could easily sell all those dollars, but if it did that, the dollar would depreciate, making Chinese products more expensive for US buyers! Chinese manufacturers would not like that. So what does China do with all those US dollars? (4) China buys US treasury bonds -- another made-up financial instrument, issued by the same government, that pays interest in the form of more dollars. Effectively, China exchanges one made-up instrument that pays no interest for another one that does. It's not an "investment" in the traditional sense of the word.

PS. If you find all of this mind-boggling, you're in good company. When asked about the value of money two centuries ago, Nathan Mayer Rothschild -- a member of the famous banking dynasty -- reportedly said that only two people in the world really understood it, but they disagreed with each other. And things were a lot simpler back then!

JVIDEL• 13 years ago

The way I see it its actually quite simple: the intrinsic value of X, anything from a piece of code to a building, needs a standard expression, and that expression is fiat currency. Currency has a value as long as someone is willing to trade something for it; the papiermark was worthless because nobody was willing to trade with it, the moment that happens with the US dollar it will become worthless as well.

The reason we use these standards is simple: convenience. We can discuss forever how many lines of code you would have to write to pay for your rent, and what if your landlord doesn't needs any code? then you have to find someone who needs code and is willing to trade it for something your landlord needs and its also equivalent to your rent. Fiat currency in this case is like the metric system: it works (nearly) everywhere.

Friterie7• 13 years ago

It's strange you say it works because it happens that every case of hyperinflation in history has occurred under a fiat, paper system. Paper is very easy to debase, but if you want you can go to the "best" "schools" in the world and they can tell you why it's such a good idea... and maybe one day you can pick up a job at a central bank. And if you're really lucky your peers will prefix your name with a sobriquet of high honour as cool as "helicopter".

tedunangst3• 13 years ago

When asked about calculus three centuries ago, Isaac Newton reportedly said that only two people in the world really understood it, but they disagreed with each other.

pessimizer3• 13 years ago

But mostly about who came up with it:)

pessimizer3• 13 years ago

[A US dollar] has value only because US laws make it so

Or more specifically, because US taxes must be paid in dollars, and dollars must be used to buy US financial instruments.

DanielBMarkham• 13 years ago

The only thing I'd add here is this: when faced with spending more money than it has in the treasury, the U.S. has come upon a simple solution. Make up more imaginary money! More money for the Chinese, more money to build houses, more money for jobs. It's all good.

If there is any consensus among economists, which I doubt, my guess is that they would say that this is a good thing, except when too much imaginary money is created. Then the Chinese and other bond holders start asking for more interest, and the entire thing spins out of control. [Insert long argument here about when, exactly, that might happen or if it has already happened and we're just the walking dead right now]

Try explaining this to your grandmother. She'll think you've been smoking crack.

nunb4• 13 years ago

A lot of people understand money today. The Chinese certainly do.

Unfortunately, most of HN doesn't seem to. Moldbuggery is a good introduction.

anonymous• 13 years ago

It's a global economy. I take it you all agree on that.

I have a question for you: "With respect to importing and exporting, how important is it to be in balance, or to have trade surplus (versus a trade deficit)?"

China's strategy is aimed at ensuring it maintains a trade surplus. They have succeeded for centuries. China will export more than it imports.

And the US? Its strategy is to look for the cheapest labor and goods to "exploit", whereever those may be found.

What do you think? Which is the better strategy? Does trade balance matter?

As for this article, I have no idea what this guy is on about.

The US is primarily a buyer. China is primarily a seller.

If you accept that as true, then the US's "credit" is important. And who do you think decides whether a buyer's credit is good?

Would you keep shipping goods to a buyer who could not pay?

ad• 13 years ago

Yglesias' extreme language always gets me.

> It doesn't give China any leverage over the American government

They get some leverage. China's bond buying lowers rates on everything from mortgages to student loans. I agree that fear mongers overstate this, though.

> the Chinese ... could order enormous quantities of Chipotle burritos and then throw them out. But that would be so hideously wasteful as to become politically untenable.

Even if it were tenable, it would still be a bad idea-- China want to suppress their currency now, but they're smart enough to know they may need to lift it later. That's why they buy US Bonds, similar to how the Fed buys or sells bonds depending on what effect it's going for. We've been in an extended period of buying so people forget that there are extended periods of selling, too. This gives them another tool apart from the usual raising interest rates, etc.

yxhuvud5• 13 years ago

> It doesn't give China any leverage over the American government

Own a million to the bank, and it will dictate your life.

Own a billion to the bank, and you will dictate their life.

DougWebb• 13 years ago

I know a thing or two about economics, but I am far, far, far from calling myself an expert or even reasonably knowledgeable. With that prelude, can someone explain this:

If China is getting lots of dollars from selling goods to the US, and then buying lots of US Bonds to keep those dollars out of the Chinese economy, presumably the bonds are just being held somewhere. They represent a promise from the US to China that says "Those goods you sold us? We haven't really paid for them yet, but at some point in the future we will, with a bit of interest."

So at this point the goods have changed hands, the Chinese workers have been paid in Yuan, and the Chinese government is holding the excess USD value of those goods in a big pile of paper.

What happens if the US says to China "You know what? We're not going to be paying you for those goods afterall. Sorry about that."

Obviously, this will piss off China, but let's ignore the political ramifications. What are the economic consequences? The pile of paper is now worthless, so the net worth of the Chinese government drops. Does that matter? The dollars aren't part of the Chinese economy, so there shouldn't be an impact there. Is the Chinese government using their US Bond portfolio as an asset to back borrowing from other countries? Is it counting on the interest to fund future spending? (Risky gamble if they are.)

Going forward, the Chinese probably won't be so willing to buy more US Bonds, which would be understandable, and other countries and individuals might be wary as well. But maybe not, if it's framed as a one-time reset of our debt (kind of like a bankruptcy) and there's some changes to the way our debt is managed to make sure it doesn't get out of control again. (Maybe an amendment to hold all living US politicians, past and present, personally accountable for a proportion of the US debt weighted by the height and duration of their office.)

So, maybe we could still sell bonds, and maybe not. If the Chinese stop buying, they're going to have to come up with another way to keep USD out of their economy if they want to continue selling goods to the US. That makes me think they'll keep buying the bonds, especially if there's no material impact from writing off the value of the existing bonds. Or maybe they'll buy other things from us. They want a navy, and we've got a bunch of ships mothballed in various states of disrepair and a need to earn revenue without selling bonds, so maybe a deal can be struck there. It's got to be cheaper to cleanup and retrofit an old ship than building a new one from scratch, even if it's less impressive. They can use the old ones for support ships or something.

Here in the US, I don't think we'd be likely to see fewer Chinese goods coming in or their prices raised, because both of those would be detrimental to the Chinese. We'd definitely have to get government spending under control because we couldn't sell so many bonds (if any), but we need to do that anyway. Zeroing out a big chunk of the existing debt will eliminate a lot of interest payments, which would help a lot.

So, does the reluctance to do this all come down to the reputation of the US Government and the US People's ability to pay back the debt we've accumulated?

Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

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