Statement by Edward Snowden to human rights groups at Sheremetyevo airport

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

by pvnick • 13 years ago

404 238 13 years ago

chunkyslink2• 13 years ago

Thank you Edward Snowden. You are a true hero.

koops• 13 years ago

Not only is Snowden brave, and smart enough to outwit (so far) the most powerful institutions of our day, he's also an excellent writer.

To David Brooks and all the others who mock him for not finishing high school, take this statement as a model of clarity and forthrightness.

adestefan• 13 years ago

If you think he wrote this on his own, then you're naive.

I'm not challenging the intellectual capacity of Snowden, but there is an army of supporters, including a well known publicist, that have been trying to turn Snowden into the latest cause celebre.

nitrogen2• 13 years ago

You think the presidents write their State of the Union speeches on their own? It's only fair that the country that has a literal army of supporters, speechwriters, publicists, and lawyers, is matched by at least one well-known publicist.

vermontdevil• 13 years ago

And his video interview along with live online chat didn't showcase his abilities?

Sven7• 13 years ago

I think he has done something very important for everyone but really don't know about the smarts involved.

In hindsight, just wondering if running around the world is any better than giving yourself up to the local police. Given the media spotlight he is under, I doubt if there would have been a repeat of what they did with Manning. He might have got more support too.

I mean if you are passionate enough about your beliefs to throw your life away why not face the consequences head on. Sort of like a King or Gandhi. I realize what an unfair thing it is to say, but it would seem that sitting in some South American country or Russia, without knowing anyone and constantly looking over your shoulder would be equivalent to sitting in a cell in the US.

gavinlynch• 13 years ago

Ryan Lizza of the New Yorker purports that the US Ambassador to Russia is denying the conversation stated in the 1st paragraph ever occurred: https://twitter.com/RyanLizza/status/355717218895536129

I don't find Wikileaks as a credible source on this topic in general.

chunkyslink2• 13 years ago

I don't find the US government a credible source on anything fullstop. Can't you see whats going on here?

cema• 13 years ago

Looks like a confidence war?

wwhitman2• 13 years ago

What if they had vague powerpoint slides?

brown9-23• 13 years ago

It is really quite hard to think of a reason why the US Ambassador to Russia would "[ask] her to relay to Mr Snowden that the US Government does not categorise Mr Snowden as a whistleblower and that he has broken United States law".

The fact that he has been charged with a crime is a pretty good indication that the USG thinks he has broken the law.

If you carry out Wikileak's line of thinking here, then anyone in any country who has been charged with a crime, no matter how severe or small, brutal or kind, should have the right to seek asylum from another country and that no state should interfere with that right.

Also, they continue to make the false claim that he has been made "stateless", which shows a purposeful ignorance of how laws actually work.

Daishiman• 13 years ago

He has been made de facto stateless. At this point actual legality is irrelevant. His right to asylum is real as well as his status as whistleblower; that the US recognizes neither is not grounds for rejecting either statement.

llamataboot7• 13 years ago

Anyone can seek asylum, that doesn't mean it will be granted. In this case it has been granted and accepted. Big difference.

fatjokes6• 13 years ago

Given that the US has been caught in lie after lie on this topic, for once I find Wikileaks to be more credible.

mti• 13 years ago

Says the Guardian[0]: "Tany Lokshina has confirmed that the US embassy called her before the meeting to ask her to pass on to Snowden the message that he was not a whistleblower."

So forget about Wikileaks. It's either Human Rights Watch's Tany Lokshina lying, or the US Ambassador.

[0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/12/edward-snowden-t...

deelowe2• 13 years ago

"Sorry for the confusion, guys. confirmed that call came from US embassy but not necessarily US Ambassador ."

brown9-23• 13 years ago

These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless.

Are people really not bothered at the irony in this sentence? Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/europe/russian-court...

If the posthumous prosecution of Sergei L. Magnitsky, the lawyer who was jailed as he tried to expose a huge government tax fraud and died four years ago in a Russian prison after being denied proper medical care, seemed surreal from the moment the authorities announced it, the verdict and sentencing on Thursday did not disappoint.

By all accounts, it was Russia’s first trial of a dead man, and in the tiny third-floor courtroom of the Tverskoi District Court, it took the judge, Igor B. Alisov, more than an hour and a half to read his decision pronouncing Mr. Magnitsky guilty of tax evasion.

It doesn't matter if it is hypocritical of an American like me to point this out, when it goes on in my country/government as well - but I find it willfully ignorant to label the Russian government as a defender of human rights like this.

edit: here is some more reading on Russia and this topic: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/24/russia-worst-human-rights...

glesica• 13 years ago

I agree. I am personally very supportive of what Snowden has done and I want him to remain free (the torture that has been inflicted on Bradley Manning is totally unconscionable). But at the same time, I do recognize that there is always danger in playing realpolitik ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend", in this case), at any level.

fatjokes6• 13 years ago

Are people really not bothered at the irony in this sentence? Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful?

I'm more bothered by your sentence. Russia and China are undoubtedly worse offenders than the US when it comes to human rights (well, at least historically, in this day and age the US seems to be racing to catch up). However, this alone is never a valid reason to discount their criticisms of US actions.

I know you're referring to Snowden's inclusion of Russia on that list, but in this case, they (and maybe China) are the only ones who can stand up against America. Clearly Ecuador fell with a single phone call.

I don't think it's hypocritical for you to point this out, but it simply should not detract from the rest of his statement. Russia has not handed him over---the least he can do is not bite the hand shielding him. I, for one, am glad that people aren't bothered by it.

brown9-23• 13 years ago

I see a large difference in not biting the hand that feeds you and labeling that country as "stand[ing] against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless".

It turns his crusade from one which is anti-pervasive-surveillance to anti-US-government.

bsimpson• 13 years ago

You've got to see the irony in taking asylum in a country where the kinds of spying he blew the whistle on in the first place are brazenly displayed on public television:

http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-bi...

reeses3• 13 years ago

People want to weigh the argument by weighing the person. I believe we call this 'ad hominem'.

The guy did something that had massive fallout and would really like to be able to live at least some form of a life. Sure, the countries offering asylum have pretty crappy human rights records and actually contribute a large number of asylum applicants to the USA. However, working in Venezuela or Bolivia, even if nowhere near the standard of living to which he may have become accustomed in Hawai'i, is better than sitting in a cell for years without trial and demonized and forgotten by the state.

I see a massive difference between leaking capabilities and personalities. The former lets us evaluate policies against the rule of law. The second can be treasonous or harmful on an individual level.

He didn't help Iran build The Bomb. He didn't even give anyone the ability to replicate the NSA's capabilities or detect interception of data in transit or at rest. He merely confirmed what many suspected and revealed what few knew (or cared about).

EpicEng2• 13 years ago

Do you really believe that Russia and China took this stance out of morality? Come on, let's not be naive here. This is a political tool to them.

rayiner9• 13 years ago

However, this alone is never a valid reason to discount their criticisms of US actions.

No, but it's a valid reason to discount Snowden's positive characterization of those criticisms. It can be the case that both things are true: 1) Russia is correct in criticizing American action, regardless of its own actions; 2) Snowden is wrong to chalk it up to Russia's "standing up against the abuse of the powerless" instead of political grandstanding and deflection.

marze• 13 years ago

If you expect it is possible to find a perfect government on this planet, think again.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

And? Fuck it, let's go live in North Korea?

tome2• 13 years ago

Agreed! So why not side with the liberal West, which is very much the least of many evils, rather than run away to despotic regimes like Russia?

[EDIT: I mean side with the West whilst at the same time thoroughly taking them to task for their own rights violations]

mtgx2• 13 years ago

It's a defender of human rights in this case.

You're implying US is a better country when it comes to human rights, but I don't see US defending his human rights. In fact, it's breaking many international laws trying to get him.

Also, I have to wonder what would've happened if there was any other weaker Russian president in place. I never liked Putin, but seeing how so many "democratic" countries were so quick to follow US' commands, and break international laws for US, just sickened me.

There's a difference between a partner and an ally, and a master. You can still stand up to your allies or partners at any time, if you disagree with their actions.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition.

A difference between my comment and yours is that mine (in this case) doesn't claim to know things that it can't possibly know.

jbigelow76• 13 years ago

    >It's a defender of human rights in this case.

It's political opportunism in this case, there was neither an upside nor a downside to capitulating with US demands, but Putin could at least make the US look like inept hypocrites. Of all the human rights abuses that occur in Russia how can you think that Putin decided this was one that needed to be held to a higher standard?

Grue32• 13 years ago

As a Russian, this statement really rustled my jimmies. I hope US catches Snowden, and he rots in prison for the rest of his life. Though he still would be better off than Magnitsky.

Karunamon3• 13 years ago

"Rotting in prison" is the least of Snowden's worries. We have precedent in what will happen, he'll be tortured just like Manning.

And shame on you for venerating rule of law over right and wrong.

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

Are you serious? You think it would set a good precedent that the guy who blew the whistle on the world wide spying going on ends up rotting in jail? That helps us how exactly?

VladRussian29• 13 years ago

As a Russian you would understand that the price Russians would charge for not handing Snowden's ass to Americans would be high. "Either praise our human rights or go for a fair trial without prolonged pre-trial unusual and cruel punishment" - an offer one can hardly refuse.

rfctr• 13 years ago

As a Russian, I'm proud of good things my government does (including Snowden's case) and ashamed of bad things it does (those things are offtopic in this discussion though).

revelation2• 13 years ago

So what? He is stuck in an russian airport. He dosn't have the luxury to wait for the world to converge to utopia.

felideon• 13 years ago

As well as Venezuela[1][2]. Maduro is an extension of Chavez' regime.

[1] http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

[2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavez-s-author...

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

A lot of false information was published about Chavez but he was one of the few people who stopped a US-based coup in his country [1].

[1] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/09/nytc-m09.html

nsxwolf• 13 years ago

It sounds like they're getting to him already. He's the next Philip Agee and the US government couldn't be happier about that. You say you're against warrantless domestic spying? You must be a commie traitor!

The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr.

JonFish852• 13 years ago

"The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr."

Even then, I'm not sure he "wins". People have a very, very short attention span. He'd be forgotten before the sentencing was handed down, most likely. From a legal point of view, the case is pretty simple: did you release documents you swore not to release? Yes? Penalty is X years in prison. I don't see much martyrdom there. He won't be killed, he won't be tortured (he may be in solitary, which may be for his own safety more than anything else, whether he's a suicide risk or at risk of being murdered in prison -- just my opinion), so there isn't much to be get all that enraged about (beyond what he's already leaked).

The time would probably be taken to put together some evidence, figure out exactly what was leaked, and how. I'm sure there are many, many things he'd get charged with, so there's a lot of research to get done, and since it's sensitive information, there needs to be a lot of care taken to figure out what was accessed and just as importantly what wasn't accessed.

By then, Kim Kardashian will be working on a divorce or another baby ("South", anyone?), Aaron Hernandez will be up for appeal or something and the public won't will care much about this.

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

Playing the martyr card hasn't worked for Manning. The US general public still doesn't care. Snowden would be sacrificing himself for literally nothing. The best thing he can do is keep all this in the news as long as possible.

stelonix• 13 years ago

Why would anyone be bothered? I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously. We've known for a good while about Guantanamo, shady extraditions (from US allies), Israel's complete disregard for basic human rights on the West Bank... This isn't just western countries though, no country whatsoever seems to care about human rights unless it gives them a political edge.

What Russia is doing with their anti-gay laws for example, is similar to what western countries have done to privacy, all in the name of an abstract idea like terrorism/protect the children/drugs.

Just because Snowden is against human rights violations it does not make him exempt of having to dance with the devil. Being a complete rebel, even in a world where it's obviously ruled by fake morals, is not a wise thing to do, specially when your life is at stake.

contingencies• 13 years ago

I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously.

Spot on. Given this situation, as some of the still relatively empowered, IMHO we in the technology community therefore have a moral obligation to do what we can to support any potential remedies to the situation.

unclebucknasty• 13 years ago

Funny: when I read the article, it struck me that a person seeking asylum elsewhere for revealing secret spying by his country, then being hunted by his country as a criminal sounds like something you would hear from some totalitarian country (yes, even Russia), but not America.

I guess I am more concerned about what's happening to our country now than with litigating the human rights history of tangentially involved nations.

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful?

It's perfectly possible to be a gross violator of human rights and then later (or even simultaneously) defend human rights.

marshray5• 13 years ago

We need to take our human rights wherever we can get them. No one has any extra to spare, least of all Snowden.

Shivetya• 13 years ago

I am more bothered no European country stood up to offer him asylum. Granted its laughable to think the US would be safe haven for someone from the EU, but it needs to start somewhere.

As I posted before, dreamers of one world government only need to see what is happening to here to understand the folly of that ideal.

stefantalpalaru• 13 years ago

No single European country can risk starting a conflict with the US and the European Union as a whole is not yet homogeneous enough to take this kind of decisions. Delaying the trade agreement was pretty much the extent of what it can do right now.

perlpimp4• 13 years ago

Situational democracy. Democracy that is more democratic for select few and rest have to suffer injustices and rights transgressions of quasi-orwellian - in Russia and US. Somewhat like equality of proletariat - where some are more equal than others.

Such is the sign of the brave new world.

llamataboot7• 13 years ago

Now hopefully Russia will do the right thing and at least let him leave the damn airport. There are a number of routes from Russia to Venezuela that don't cross over Western European or US airspace -- can't VZ just send a private plane with a military escort over there and bring him back?

loginalready• 13 years ago

It's not Russia that doesn't let him leave the airport, it's the US by revoking his passport in a clear violation of human rights.

No country on the planet can just let him pass the border without violating it's own laws. This is exactly why revoking his passport is such a disgusting move that violates all common decency.

If there was ever one specific moment in history in which the US changed from a flawed democracy to a totalitarian state, it's the moment they took Snowden's passport.

DanBlake• 13 years ago

Surely these countries have the power to grant him a passport for their country if they chose to do so.

llamataboot7• 13 years ago

But why not violate its own laws? Countries make and break their own laws all the time? Cops drive through red lights by flicking on their lights for a minute, surely a country can wave him onto a plane without checking his papers.

famo• 13 years ago

Snowden doesn't need a passport to leave Russia or enter Venezuela if he claims refugee status and requests asylum. The 1951 Refugee Convention allows a person seeking refuge to travel without a passport due to the possibility that the asylum seeker could be persecuted if identified by a document they're carrying. E.g. If your name is John Smith and your country is killing everyone named John Smith, you may not want to carry your passport with you.

perlpimp4• 13 years ago

What if US presidents passport is revoked? Will he be able to enter any country? Do they go through passport control.

I think there is a double standart. Now the president looks like perverted nasty bully - throwing a tantrum because he and his friends were found out.

aplusbi2• 13 years ago

Who do you propose pay for a private jet with a military escort?

llamataboot7• 13 years ago

Private jets and military escorts have been paid for for so many more trivial purposes.

mindslight4• 13 years ago

That was my first thought too, but let's not kid ourselves as to Russia's motives. The longer Snowden is stranded, the worse USG looks and the more Russia gets to tease out and align the countries that aren't entirely in the pocket of USG.

mythz• 13 years ago

The US Govt illegal activity couldn't have been exposed by a nicer guy. He's self-less and motivated by altruistic goals that serves everyone's interest but the US Govt's (and other Govt's they can influence).

It certainly helps our cause that he's both intelligent and articulate.

The fact that the US Govt can continue operating at full will irrespective of legal and constitutional boundaries shows just how much power and influence they already have.

perlpimp4• 13 years ago

It is now the government that is terrorizing the populace by displaying such a common disregard for laws it is enforcing. That is an act of an illegitimate government that uses illegal and immoral tactics to control general populace.

mtgx2• 13 years ago

The Western European countries are actively standing in the way of him going to Venezuela, and are actively opposing his asylum.

So what do we do now?

resu_nimda• 13 years ago

The Human Rights Watch representative...had received a call from the US Ambassador to Russia, who asked her to relay to Mr Snowden that the US Government does not categorise Mr Snowden as a whistleblower and that he has broken United States law.

That's just...hilarious, and absurd. What purpose does that call serve; what goal is it working toward? Is it some sort of legal requirement? Can we just do without the inane posturing, for once?

Edit: apparently there is some dispute as to whether this conversation actually took place.

StavrosK• 13 years ago

Hmm, what he said about the grounded plane made me wonder: What if he (or a supporter) falsely tipped off US authorities that he was on that plane to see whether he could travel to South America securely, or if the US would somehow intercept the plane?

A dry run, as it were.

redblacktree• 13 years ago

I thought the same thing about the plane that flew from Russia to Cuba yesterday, skirting US airspace.

maxk42• 13 years ago

More likely a commercial concern. The airline would incur a tremendous cost if its flight were grounded by US authorities and its customers are probably expressing worry about that possibility. They changed their route to assuage these fears.

llamataboot7• 13 years ago

In semi-related news that I can't post because I get the hacker news "please slow down" warning -- hacker takes over website of VZ daily El Nacional and warns govt not to give asylum to Snowden or face leaks of corruption/bribery/etc

https://knightcenter.utexas.edu/en/node/14126

nemo1618• 13 years ago

Christ, a script kiddie with his own product line[1]... words cannot express my disgust.

[1] http://jesterscourt.cc/jestergear

jessaustin8• 13 years ago

Yeah, whatever one thought of this prankster before, he's certainly jumped the shark now. Does he think this action is somehow different from anything the "Anonymous" he reviles has ever done? Whatever happened to a letter to the editor?

bedhead2• 13 years ago

In all seriousness, is there even a single HN commenter who doesn't support/worship this guy? Is the diversity of thought that nonexistent on this subject? I'm just sorta curious and ask the question sincerely.

hnal9433• 13 years ago

I don't support him. I think it's wildly hypocritical of him to run to China and Russia because he's so opposed to government spying. I also think that the NSA spying is less troubling that the other numerous abuses of the Obama administration, including using the IRS to repress political speech.

bedhead2• 13 years ago

Phew - I agree. Just making sure I'm not completely insane here, and frankly the hero worship of him is really starting to creep me out. I worry that too many people blindly see this as getting back at THE MAN without giving enough consideration to many other aspects of the ordeal.

I think his actions while on the run are just pathetic. He's such a weasel, like a guy who sucker punches someone on the street then takes off. The to align himself with these other countries who in the grand scheme of things are far worse actors than the US takes some serious balls. I still get the sense that 90% of the reason he decided to pull this off was for selfish reasons, that he wanted the notoriety.

EDIT - I suspect numerous downvotes will confirm the consensus

ChikkaChiChi• 13 years ago

If you think the IRS issue and the NSA are mutually exclusive then you aren't paying close enough attention. They are just different tools in the same workshop.

As for the 'hypocrisy' would you feel the same if a Chinese national ran to the US seeking asylum after broadcasting to the world that the Chinese were hacking our hospitals and universities just because they could?

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

I think it's wildly hypocritical of him to run to China and Russia because he's so opposed to government spying.

What a stupid complaint. He's opposed to his country spying, so he blows the whistle on them. Now what is he to do? Stay and become the next Manning, locked away in torture and forgotten about? He obviously has to go, so where? It has to be somewhere that can stand up to the US which, as we've just seen, isn't very fucking many places. Russia and China are pretty much the only realistic options here.

But no, he shouldn't be practical. He should be more concerned that some dumbass on the internet might call him a fucking hypocrite.

lttlrck3• 13 years ago

Not so much hypocritical, but definitely misdirected and in direct conflict with the claim that he is a smart guy.

flyinRyan10• 13 years ago

We're on the verge of losing the some very key values the internet provides here. We have to take our heroes as we can get them. Snowden has his flaws, but compared to the beast he's fighting it's clear who's worse.

jessaustin8• 13 years ago

I say this sincerely: don't feed the troll.

ChuckMcM5• 13 years ago

Whomever is speech writing these statements (or editing them) is doing a great job. Not only does Snowden make the US out to be a corrupt and despotic nation, willing to subvert its own laws and principles to shut one person up, it manages to position the US' character below that of countries run by South American dictators and ex-KGB colonels.

It is my sincere hope that this event ends the political careers of a number of US politicians, and engages enough voters to disrupt the status quo.

legutierr• 13 years ago

I'm not aware of any of these South American countries that he mentioned being run by dictators. In fact, as far as I am aware, all South American countries are democracies. There are no "South American dictators".

ChuckMcM5• 13 years ago

I apologize.

The perception presented by the US press/propaganda is that these are "paper democracies" [1], in the sense that an election was held but the implication is that the outcome of that election was pre-ordained such that the person "elected" is really just a dictator wearing the mantle of democracy to give their position a bit more legitimacy.

The unintended consequence of that propaganda effort is that many of the same sorts of innuendo can be applied to the US election process, so in a way they make themselves appear less legitimate than they might hope for.

Regardless of the reality of the situation, Snowden (or his speech writers), have incorporated (or perhaps co-opted) this theme to position the US (in the eyes of US residents/citizens) as being the inferior form of government or country relative to countries that they have been told are, or are implied to be, "paper democracies" [1]

I approve of that rhetoric because it has a chance of waking some people out of their "but it protects us from terrorism" slumber to realize that some prices are too high to pay and maybe this has gone too far and its time to change. And its clear that the incumbents are lining up on the side of supporting the NSA (I'm thinking of people like Senator Feinstein here) so they are the people we need to replace. We'll see how effective it is.

And yes, there is the counter argument about "but this is just what the enemies of the US want, us to voluntarily neuter our own intelligence services so that they can get back to doing their evil deeds." which, were this a foreign policy forum, we would be going back and forth on the limits of sovereignty vs the rights of the citizenry.

[1] I came across the term "paper democracies" in a book about the Iran Contra affair as a description of countries with elections whose outcome was rigged.

Demiurge7• 13 years ago

So, ex-KGB automatically means you were born to be an evil sadist? Amazing.

ChuckMcM5• 13 years ago

Is that what it means? I keep wondering why the news services keep bringing it up.

VladRussian29• 13 years ago

So, ex-KGB automatically means you were born to be an evil sadist?

no, it means you were successfully trained to be one.

opminion2• 13 years ago

countries run by South American dictators

"Nearly all Latin American elections now are free and fair" http://www.economist.com/node/16964145

ChuckMcM5• 13 years ago

Thanks for that link, even though I think your quote is a bit out of context. I read it to say that in 2010 governments were a lot better than the 'bad old days' but still had a ways to go. What was your take on it?

mansigandhi• 13 years ago

Is there anyway we, as a people, can help other than just support? Is there a petition running to the UN?

turar• 13 years ago

I regularly read reader comments on NYTimes regarding NSA/Snowden affair, and this is the first time that vast majority of highest-rated comments there are negative toward Snowden. Previously, the majority was overwhelmingly pro-Snowden. Very curious. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/world/europe/snowden-russi...

malandrew5• 13 years ago

Possible HB Gary Sockpuppets?

munin• 13 years ago

yes, anyone who disagrees with you is just a puppet!

malandrew5• 13 years ago

Anyone asking him to come back and face trial under the current conditions is either naïve or a fool. However, I think that he should at least put conditions on the table under which he would return to the US to face trial.

The most important condition would be strict adherence to the 8th amendment, which means no possibility of solitary confinement or other cruel and unusual punishment and reasonable bail, so he is afforded the same rights that Daniel Ellsberg was after leaking the Pentagon papers.

The other required condition would be changing the jurisdiction in which charges are brought back to where they should have been filed, which is Hawaii, not Virginia. Cherry-picking a jurisdiction where many of those that will be on the jury may work in the IC community or have close ties to the IC community is not justice. In fact, it is a perversion of it.

Lastly, (and I know this would never happen), but I would love to see a Frost v. Nixon type debate involving Glenn Greenwald, Edward Snowden, Barack Obama, Gen. Keith Alexander and James Clapper live on national TV unrehearsed.

mindslight4• 13 years ago

You're falling into the trap that you're calling out other people for falling into.

The most important condition would be strict adherence to the 8th amendment

This is supposed to be a condition of USG existing in the first place, so the only thing it could give is more empty promises.

In fact, it is a perversion of it [justice]

Once again, if USG was bound by anything, it would already not be perverting justice in every other trial.

At this point to Snowden, USG is just an angry beast to be avoided at all costs. More power to him for working to unmask the extent of its colonization of the world while he's still in limbo. But at this point, he can never return to the soft prison with free speech, and has to deal with being in the rest of the world without it. The only thing we can wish for him is to be able to resume a nice life next to a beach somewhere.

tokenadult• 13 years ago

I would have a lot more regard for what Snowden is claiming about United States government actions if he would come back here to the United States and stand trial. More and more of what is being said in his statements to the press (which plainly are receiving editing help, at least, from Wikileaks) are not making sense in the overall context of how different countries behave in the community of nations.

When all the smoke is cleared away from Snowden's allegations, and there have been congressional investigations into the data-gathering and surveillance practices of United States government agencies and private companies, most Americans will still be quite supportive of their federal government (in the usual complaining United States way) and tens of millions of people around the world will still desire to settle in the United States.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-drea...

To date, I am persuaded that United States government programs related to foreign intelligence need more effective oversight--not least because they hire snafus like Snowden. I am also persuaded that most countries with governments subject to the discipline of a free press and free and fair elections largely are willing to cooperate with the United States in the kind of programs the NSA intends to run, because there are genuine threats from terrorist plotters in those countries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Boston+Marathon+bombing&sour...

I'd be glad to see NSA programs reviewed by Congress, and possibly curtailed in their operation to ensure their lawfulness. I'd also be glad to see Edward Snowden go on trial according to United States law to weigh his actions against any defenses he may be able to assert at trial. I've lived elsewhere twice for long stays in my adult life, and after talking to people from around the world about this, I'm still glad to be living in the United States at the moment, and still mostly glad that the United States system of rule by law operates as it does.

VladRussian29• 13 years ago

I would have a lot more regard for what Snowden is claiming about United States government actions if he would come back here to the United States and stand trial.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 180 times, i guess Snowden feels that even a couple times of such simulated death experience would be too much - look at how Manning looks - like a ghost (and i suppose Manning had it clearly explained to him that if he mentions anything else that was done to him beyond solitary confinement - it will be repeated in double amount)

note: while there is incomparable difference between Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's actions and Snowden's, there isn't much difference from the POV of the ones who have and would be "handling" the former and the latter - between terrorism and high treason, high treason have been punished by the powers to be equally or even more harsher.

cubalibre3• 13 years ago

How nice is it that we can casually talk about an American citizen fearing being repeatedly tortured by his own government?

mpyne13• 13 years ago

look at how Manning looks - like a ghost

Manning has looked like a ghost at the best of times, just look at his Wikipedia article with his 2009 picture in the Hollister shirt and compare to the recent photos of him being escorted to/from the trial going on now at Ft. Meade.

What specific pictures have you seen where he looks injured?

malandrew5• 13 years ago

As long as that trial takes place in Hawaii, instead of Virginia and the US respects the 8th amendment (no cruel and unusual punishment or excessive bail), then I agree. Everyone crying for him to stand trial in the US needs to acknowledge that the game is rigged against him as it currently stands.

Bringing these kinds of charges in Virginia is like filing a patent suit in East Texas.

deelowe2• 13 years ago

Are you serious? What do you think is the first that that will happen once he comes back to the US? There's no way this guy will get a fair trial. I don't blame him at all for seeking asylum.

guelo• 13 years ago

the Snowden trial should start the day Bush and Cheny, Obama and the CIA torturers stand trial for breaking american law.

mikemoka• 13 years ago

granting asylum to Snowden will just influence relations between US and Russia,and is not done to be coherent with previous standings of the country on the topic of human rights,almost always different.Russia and others clearly try to challenge the rest of the world to increase their power in times of crisis, how nice,the sooner world leaders realize that the internet is an early glimpse at the future of society and start researching and doing things together the sooner things will improve,for everyone.

Every individual has the particular interest to live in a healthy society,and not to have his possibilities limited by his country of birth if you ask me.

droithomme• 13 years ago

It's very odd both that the US government would use Human Rights Watch to convey messages (which are essentially threats or warnings) to Mr. Snowden, and that Human Rights Watch would feel the need to agree to convey messages of that nature on behalf of the state apparatus that is targeting Mr. Snowden.

It was also odd when I earlier read that Human Rights Watch was the only agency which received an invitation from Mr. Snowden which felt the need to release the message in advance to the media, including the time and place of the meeting.

To see the problem with these events, consider it in any other situation where a political prisoner who is in hiding, let's say a North Korean, is meeting with representatives from human rights agencies. How would it be perceived if one of those human rights agencies announced the location in advance and took the opportunity to deliver a personal threatening message they had privately received during a personal conversation with Kim Jong-un.

D9u5• 13 years ago

     consider it in any other situation where a political prisoner who is in hiding

Mr. Correa has pointed to the case of two brothers, William and Roberto Isaias, who ran a bank at the center of a huge Ecuadorean financial scandal in the 1990s. They were convicted in absentia of financial wrongdoing in an Ecuadorean court. They now live in the United States, but repeated requests for extradition have been unsuccessful.
And Venezuela has demanded the extradition of Luis Posada Carriles, a former C.I.A. operative accused here of masterminding the bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 73 people in the 1970s. He escaped from a Venezuelan prison in the 1980s and went to live in the United States.

“The first thing you need to do to have the moral standing to ask for the extradition of this youth Snowden, whose only act is to reveal the crimes that you committed, is to turn over Luis Posada Carriles, who you are protecting,” Mr. Maduro said this month.

redthrowaway• 13 years ago

Snowden's location is not a secret. Announcing that yes, he is indeed where everyone knows he is, does not put him in jeopardy.

ash• 13 years ago

From the audio recording of the message (starting from 30:40):

"Not that I wanna be their official messenger."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNQSVurlAak&t=30m40s

wwhitman2• 13 years ago

Wikileaks is using him as a meat puppet and now he is totally fucked, whatever shred of credibility he had is lost by praising Russia for their dedication to human rights. I suppose you can defend their record but you will be fighting uphill.

bpatrianakos• 13 years ago

The fact that the US doesn't recognize Snowden as a whistleblower doesn't prove persecution or anything at all. He broke the law. He and others may not like it or agree and they don't have to but its still clear he broke the law. What has Snowden told us that we didn't alreay know since 2006? He gave us classified documents and the names and operations of classified programs. Programs we already knew about but just didn't know the name of or how they worked. Hell, even with what he did give us we still don't actually know how they work. But we sure as hell always knew our calls and Internet activity were being monitored.

I'm not a fan of what the NSA is doing but I don't think Snowden is even remotely close to a hero either. Did you know you can take that position? That there's a difference between ones position on NSA spying and whether Snowden is a whistleblower? I'm of the opinion that Snowden and the NSA are criminals.

anovikov• 13 years ago

I wonder why he can't travel to Latin America. Is it just the issue of not being able to transit through Western Europe or U.S. airports and the lack of direct air connection? Why Mr. Assange does not arrange a private jet flight for him? Moscow to Caracas is under 10K km so it should not be a problem. Even if that's expensive (maybe $200-250K), a few months of living in Sheremetyevo will eat up as much money, or more.

lambda3• 13 years ago

The Human Rights Watch representative used this opportunity to tell Mr Snowden that on her way to the airport she had received a call from the US Ambassador to Russia, who asked her to relay to Mr Snowden that the US Government does not categorise Mr Snowden as a whistleblower and that he has broken United States law.

Am I the only one who found this whole statement pretty odd?

Let's see. A "whistleblower" is a term for someone who blows a whistle. This is generally meant to indicate someone who is making some kind of loud noise to report a crime; someone (maybe a cop, maybe just someone who is a victim of a crime) trying to get attention that a crime has been committed.

Now, when reporting a crime, do you generally expect the perpetrator of that crime to be the appropriate person to determine whether or not a crime has been committed, and thus whether or not labeling the person a "whistleblower" is appropriate?

The whole idea of whistleblower laws that don't protect someone from reporting to the public about crimes committed by the administration is laughable. What the hell is the point of any kind of whistleblower laws or protection if you can't actually blow the whistle on your bosses?

baddox2• 13 years ago

But the whole idea of government is that one group of individuals should be the "top level" of authority, creating, enforcing, and interpreting its own laws, reserving the authority to keep certain types of secrets (and, of course, reserving the authority to determine which types of secrets qualify), etc.

lambda3• 13 years ago

Um, no. The whole idea of democracy is that there is no "top level" of authority.

In the US system, there are representatives of the people, passing laws. There is a single executive, also a representative of the people, implementing said laws. And there are the courts, interpreting said laws when there are disagreements over them.

But the whole point of representative democracy is that the people ultimately get to decide who is doing this, so that a runaway government cannot be a single "top level" of authority that creates, enforces, and interprets its own laws. The whole point is that the people are the highest authority, and the government serves at their will.

But if the government hides substantial information from the people, a democracy cannot effectively function. The people need to know what the government is doing. There are good reasons for limited amounts of secrecy, for particularly sensitive information or for privacy purposes. But keeping vast amounts of information on things that affect everyone, outside of a wartime environment, is anti-democratic.

This type of secrecy, this type of executive action which is seen as being unquestionable by even elected representatives, let alone the people, is turning the government from a representative democracy to an oligarchy.

rmdoss• 13 years ago

Next few days will be interesting to see what Russia will do there.

They do not have the best track record in terms of privacy or human rights, but helping him will make them look good internationally.

Statement by Edward Snowden to human rights groups at Sheremetyevo airport

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