Hong Kong Baffled by Snowden’s Hideout

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/06/10/hong-kong-baffled-by-snowdens-hideout/

by nir • 13 years ago

130 96 13 years ago

blogs.wsj.com

cryptokill• 13 years ago

This stuff proves to me that these programs have no value in stopping things that have not yet happened. Like the boston bombings and this guy, I sure there was a huge trail of evidence that didn't get identified in time to stop the actual act.

joonix• 13 years ago

Or that the programs are not being abused widely for surveillance outside of their stated purpose?

revscat• 13 years ago

Not worth it. The risk from totalitarian regimes is far greater than the risk from terrorism. Governments have more resources, by far. Even if we assume that PRISM is being used completely above-the-board the potential for abuse is still large enough to warrant reconsideration.

uvdiv3• 13 years ago

Then again, if Snowden were hypothetically spying for the PRC, Hong Kong would be the most logical place to seek protection. In this scenario the PRC would credibly protect him from the US, and European liberal democracies would not.

Spearchucker• 13 years ago

If he was spying, then why Hong Kong, and why not Beijing directly?

olalonde• 13 years ago

Beijing woud look incredibly suspicious wouldn't it? It would be hard to buy the "strong freedom of speech tradition" story.

uvdiv3• 13 years ago

Why not? They're both in the sovereign territory of China.

liotier2• 13 years ago

Protection, balanced with plausible deniability.

greghinch• 13 years ago

How do you make the jump from leaking the existence of a massive secret surveillance network within the US to him being a spy?? What reason would a spy have to share this info with the public?? Sounds like FUD to me...

madaxe2• 13 years ago

This is the smear they're running already - have seen him referred to as a "Chinese spy" a couple of times already. I'm sure they'll get Greenwald on charges of being his cohort for China.

Diplomatic incident ahoy!

dodyg• 13 years ago

Spying 101: don't go public.

mikegioia• 13 years ago

I would guess that he's not even in Hong Kong anymore, nor at the time of his interview.

_k2• 13 years ago

I think he was in Hong Kong for the interview. If he wasn't, the government would use it against him in an attempt to make him look like a liar, an enemy of the state.

barredo• 13 years ago

Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he was spot on.

Maybe his hypothetical extradition will cause a sort-of diplomatic "mess" between Beijing and Honk Kong, leaving him a limbo where neither HK nor China will grant him total asylum but wont extradite him either

latch• 13 years ago

There are two areas where SAR have little independence: defense and foreign affairs. Hong Kong will have its own money, postal service, justice, environment ministry, police, ....but it doesn't have a military and its foreign affairs tends to be limited to economic matters.

kghose2• 13 years ago

Who is funding him?

junto• 13 years ago

He earned $200,000 a year. Maybe he has some savings.

kghose2• 13 years ago

To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors.

The other real story is not that the government does this, it is that the government did not tell us it did this. THAT makes it underhand.

If the government came out and said, look we are storing who calls whom and asking telecos to store that information and, with judicial oversight, we will access that information, and we had a debate about it, that would be the proper way.

The government is taking the course "It is better to ask forgiveness than permission".

Obama is going to take the rap for this, and I therefore wonder at the timing. I think it is important to realize two things

1. Obama continued the Bush era policies 2. Obama continued the Bush era policies

Either that is the ONLY way security can be done, or there is some powerful faction within the bureaucracy which has gotten used to working in the shadows.

I think that there is some bunch of bureaucrats who have gotten too used to having information at hand.

I think we as a community need to keep using the regular methods offered to us via democracy (like posting on this online forum) to express our wish that

a) We be told what the government is doing b) Express our displeasure at the direction the style of governance is going

9999• 13 years ago

200,000 does not seem excessive given the difficulty of finding someone who is both technically competent and trustworthy.. Oh wait...

kombine3• 13 years ago

So why didn't he go to Iceland in the first place? And would Hong Kong let him out if he decides to leave right now, before the US issued any warrant?

tracker1• 13 years ago

The cover was medical tourism... HK is known for it, Iceland isn't... Also HK is currently in a state of flux in terms of it's asylum process... So he can stay while they even sort out the process of applying/approval etc... it's rather brilliant.

uvdiv3• 13 years ago

This is contradicted somewhat by a different source. This one says Hong Kong is a very good place to seek asylum right now, because there is a moratorium on deporting asylum-seekers:

But there is at least one reason it could be incredibly shrewd: Hong Kong's asylum system is currently stuck in a state of limbo that could allow Snowden to exploit a loophole and buy some valuable time.

Simon Young, director of the Centre for Comparative and Public Law at the University of Hong Kong, told GlobalPost that a decision delivered by Hong Kong's High Court in March of this year required the government to create a new procedure for reviewing asylum applications.

Until the government does this, he said, asylum seekers are allowed to stay in Hong Kong indefinitely.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific...

oinksoft• 13 years ago

Brilliant. It's sad it lends itself so easily to spin, "The Chinese Turned Him!" I expect that is what Americans will be told to believe.

randall• 13 years ago

But i mean it's curious he did this right as the Chinese PM was visiting Obama, no?

einhverfr• 13 years ago

But on top of that you have the fact that "The Chinese could offer him asylum in exchange for classified information" is a decent deterrent for them even asking.

Additionally, suppose they ask China for extradition and China offers protection in exchange for information. Then Snowden has several useful options. He could suggest that the US back off so he doesn't have to make a decision. He could give in to the Chinese. He could turn himself in and issue a public statement that if the only way he could stay in Hongkong was to sell out his country he would rather face jail.

Even the third option (turning himself in) would be very possibly something that would work in his defence. That is hard to spin against him, "He's so patriotic he'd rather go to jail than sell out his country."

AlexeiSadeski• 13 years ago

There was actually an article upvoted on HackerNews a few days ago which supposed, even before Snowden revealed himself, that these leaks were the result of Chinese intelligence activity.

laureny• 13 years ago

The difference here is that Snowden is going to be wanted for criminal charges, not political ones, so his case for pleading asylum is very, very weak.

It's like someone being accused of murder and trying to seek asylum in another country (I'm not saying that what he did is identical to murder, just pointing out what "criminal" means here).

ttrreeww• 13 years ago

Politically motivated criminal charges. Political asylum.

beagle3• 13 years ago

No one is ever wanted for "political charges". There are civil charges, and there are criminal charges. When the state is the prosecutor, it is very often (though not always) a criminal charge.

When requesting asylum, the requester makes the claim that the charges (of whatever kind) are politically motivated - which may or may not stick in snowden's case. I have no knowledge of the history of extraditions in such matters.

at-fates-hands• 13 years ago

Agreed.

He's also rolling the dice in a major way. Although the asylum laws are sort of up in the air in Hong Kong right now, they could just decide to detain him and put him in jail during the process. Worse still, since China has sovereignty, they could ship him back to China and use him as trade bait with the US.

alephnil• 13 years ago

Most oppressive regimes will make sure that dissidents also get criminal charges (fabricated or not), so then you could just as well remove the concept of asylum entirely. Hardly any country has political charges after all.

The concept of murder may not be as obvious as you think. If an American murder fled to Norway, he will likely not get asylum, but Norwegian authorities can't extradict him to the US, because they are not allowed to do that when there is a possibility of capital penalty. The same is the case for many other European nations.

platypii• 13 years ago

Could you please characterize the difference between "criminal charges" vs "political ones"?

mason552• 13 years ago

It doesn't matter because you still have to have someone deny his asylum application, something which there is no protocol for at the moment in HK.

joeco• 13 years ago

Too many batman movies

tomelders• 13 years ago

Hong Kong is the worst place in the world for any person to avoid extradition, with the possible exception of the United Kingdom

I'm British, and this both saddens and angers me. It's time for a change.

kombine3• 13 years ago

I wouldn't worry too much about it, it is all politics and all selective. A lot of Russians fled to the UK to elude justice in Russia. Whether they are political refugees or indeed committed crimes back home is another matter, but London is certainly a safe harbour for many of them.

pekk• 13 years ago

For which crime is polonium poisoning a legal sentence? Because if it's not a legal sentence, then it is not a matter of eluding "justice".

notahacker• 13 years ago

I'm sceptical about the truth of that claim. For a start, the UK (along with other European countries) has a blanket ban on extraditing anyone that might face capital charges; a detail many countries with extradition treaties and capital punishment systems of their own are unlikely to care too much about. Secondly, the UK government can, and in the last 12 months has vetoed extradition of a high-profile suspect to the US, largely because there was public outcry over the issue.

AhtiK• 13 years ago

Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide?

I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room.

Or is this just a 48h maneuver to clear up the political situation and then if needed move to one of the embassies in HK that is more supportive?

JackpotDen• 13 years ago

Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide? I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room.

Depends if you think people want to kill you

EthanHeilman• 13 years ago

I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room.

All those cameras and employees become a protection. Remember when Israel assassinated that arms trafficker in a luxury hotel and all the video footage was released to the internet. It blew ~10+ operatives cover and caused a major diplomatic row about the fake passports used.

If the US took action at the hotel the cost in terms of US covert operatives in China blown would be in 10-100s of millions of dollars in training and recruitment. If the US used a third party they would expose that third party to Chinese intelligence. Not including the media firestorm such an action would cause.

All security is about raising the cost to the attacker, he has raised it significantly but the US still act if Obama so choose. From the US perspective the damage is done, why bring more negative PR at such a high cost?

JonnieCache• 13 years ago

Maybe he knows something we don't? Just a guess.

_k2• 13 years ago

He might have an insurance policy. After all, he had access to other data so if they lock him up, they risk problems bigger than they could ever imagine. He may have written a program that releases the information on a certain date. Or someone else has a backup and knows what to do with it.

Either that or he's no longer in Hong Kong, sort of like what McAfee did, tell everyone where he's at when he's really no longer there. So when Snowden tells the CIA their office is across the street, it's no more than a tactic to mislead the CIA.

Either that, or he hasn't thought this through at all and I find that hard to believe.

jckt• 13 years ago

I find it hard to believe that he can be anywhere so easily. The NSA isn't omniscient, but certainly it keeps close tabs on people that work with/for them?

JamisonM2• 13 years ago

I would suggest that tracking former employees or contractors that had security clearance and did not misbehave while working for the NSA would be a pretty low priority to keep track of - and fairly numerous. Particularly since any information they did have that was sensitive would generally lose value over time. I would expect that most of the NSA's resources directed at specific individuals are directed at individuals that they have reason to believe are up to no good, not just tracking low-risk folks for the sake of tracking them.

wallawe• 13 years ago

This guy is not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. He also didn't make this decision overnight. If I had to guess, he planned this all very well with all considerations in mind .

The fact that he noted his location at all is interesting in that he obviously doesn't want to get caught. So why bring it up? He could have just as easily left that detail anonymous. Makes me wonder if there's a tactic in mind that we might not have seen just yet.

CaveTech• 13 years ago

It's unlikely that he'd be able to hide anywhere in the world at this point without at least someone finding him. At least by saying where he is people will notice if he goes "missing".

codesuela• 13 years ago

Also consider, if he hadn't shared his location he might've just disappeared as soon as he made an anonymous statement over the internet. This way he gets to talk to the press and establishes his location clearly.

grandalf• 13 years ago

China would turn Snowden over to US authorities only in exchange for the return of Chinese protesters given asylum in the US.

The "China is an oppressive regime" meme makes up a lot of US propaganda and is used to justify all kinds of policies. So the US is put in the awkward position of not being able to engage in the usual diplomatic trade.

Hong Kong is useful b/c it represents the future of Chinese society and is a concentration of wealth and influence. By letting Snowden stay in HK, China can appease its own population while also appearing to stand strong against the US government's demands.

The best hope for the USG is that this blows over. Snowden seems fairly savvy about the media's role and if he's able to continue to shape the discussion there might actually be meaningful outcomes.

rayiner2• 13 years ago

The "China is an oppressive regime" meme

It's not a meme. It's fact.

286c8cb04bda• 13 years ago

It's not a meme. It's fact.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

cloudwizard• 13 years ago

This brings up the idea that Snowden fled the US to a place that he felt would be more free.

macspoofing3• 13 years ago

Here's a cynical interpretation: Hong Kong makes zero sense given that they are a) within Chinese sphere of influence and b) frequently extradites to the US. He's go other sensitive documents he may sell to the Chinese in exchange for money and sanctuary. So maybe that was the plan all along. Everyone focuses on the NSA wire-tapping scandal (which, honestly, I think everyone assumed was happening for years), and he gets a payout and some cover.

Too cynical?

resu_nimda• 13 years ago

I don't think it makes sense. Like he said in his interview, he could have just sold the stuff he already leaked. Why then would he bother with the whole trouble of very publicly becoming America's Most Wanted? He sounded pretty sincere about doing this for the good of the American people. He claims he made a concerted effort to not reveal any information that could harm individuals, which appears to hold up.

I would think (hope) he has some cards up his sleeve to protect himself, but at this point I think all the double-agent/working with China talk is wild conjecture.

macspoofing3• 13 years ago

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing to go on. Edward's disclosure was responsible, and certainly served a public good, and so far he should be lauded for it. It was a brave act. I understand him fleeing and seeking asylum in another country given that there is little chance he would get a 'fair' trial here (as has been shown by the way Bradley Manning and Aaron Swartz have been treated)... but of all places ... China??!? He's not an idiot, so he must have thought this through but it makes no sense.

tokenadult• 13 years ago

Have we seen a news report yet about how Snowden traveled to Hong Kong? His choice of destination may have been dictated by where he could fly on a nonstop airline flight from Hawaii, where he was last based. His travel documents, because he was contracting for the NSA, may already have had restrictions on which destinations he could fly to. (Such restrictions have been routine for NSA employees for more than a generation. Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination.) He may simply have had no better choice when he had opportunity to leave work and leave home.

otoburb• 13 years ago

>Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination.

This explains the sometimes seemingly draconian photo ID checks by airlines at the gate. Thanks for clearing this up -- I didn't realize that the return cost was borne by the carrier. Makes much more sense.

wanderingstan• 13 years ago

A few years ago I was cutting it close for a flight from New York to Maine. Everyone else had boarded when I got to the gate. When my wrinkled, self-printed boarding pass threw error noises, the agent told me just to go, "and run!" I breathed a sigh of relief when I was on the plane, but puzzled that a French tourist was in my seat. When we saw that both our tickets had the same seat we called over a flight attendant. "Wait, where are you flying?" she asked. "Portland, Maine?" With this comment I now fully understand the terror came to her face as she exclaimed, "This plane is going to Paris! Sir, you have to get off this plane immediately! Run, sir, run!" They shut the door behind me as I left.

So yes, always double check your gate assignments at the airport, as they may have changed.

segmondy• 13 years ago

you missed a free trip to paris! what an adventure that would have been. well, not if you can't leave the airport.

JamisonM2• 13 years ago

I am baffled too, given that Ecuador offered Assange asylum wouldn't that be the most logical choice? I quick "vacation" down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador if you want to avoid raising suspicions and travel restrictions.

jjs• 13 years ago

down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap

vinceguidry2• 13 years ago

Most people cross the Gap by boat. It's 'overland' in the sense that you don't have to get on a plane.

rayiner2• 13 years ago

According to an interview with The Guardian, 29-year-old Edward Snowden, whose revelations have created a political uproar, has stashed himself in an unidentified luxury hotel in Hong Kong, a city he said he chose as the best place to hunker down given its “spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.”

You mean the place that has no political freedom to speak of and exists under the PRC's thumb?

pyre• 13 years ago

HK has more political freedom than the rest of the PRC. I've heard of protests there that would be illegal anywhere else in the PRC. IIRC, you also need special travel papers to go to HK from the rest of the PRC.

chris_mahan• 13 years ago

Maybe because he knows what the NSA capabilities are in Hong Kong?

brianbreslin• 13 years ago

what would really be the best place to hideout? are there any countries where he would be free of us extradition threats given his high profile nature?

cglace• 13 years ago

My guess would be Venezuela or Cuba.

arbuge• 13 years ago

I'm also surprised he chose HK - it seems dicey to me. Off the cuff, there are other places that come to mind as being more promising spots. Having followed the Roman Polanski saga a few years back, for instance, I would have thought France would be a proven destination for anyone seeking to avoid US extradition.

chiph• 13 years ago

Note to journalists: Please stop using the Orwellian term "Rendition". The proper term for bringing a suspect back to face a judge is "Extradite"

aidenn0• 13 years ago

Actually Extradition is subset of Rendition (which involves any transfer between jurisdictions), which is not at all an orwellian term.

It has only taken on its more negative connotations since the use of "Extraordinary Rendition." Had the term used for that behavior been "Extraordinary Extradition" then you would be complaining when journalists use the term "Extradition"

7952• 13 years ago

A more interesting question is why he made himself public at all.

alex_doom• 13 years ago

I've been doubting that he actually IN Hong Kong at the moment. He may have been there at some point and did the interview there, but I would have hoped he burned his location and is currently in another country.

tungwaiyip• 13 years ago

All the press and comments assume his ultimate goal is to avoid extradition, which has not been requested so far. I think he know the consequence of his action very well. He wants to expose the government surveillance program and draw public outrage. If US government do request for extradition, this will go through the court system in Hong Kong. Hopefully it will be a fairly transparent system and give him another chance to raise the awareness of this program. He might end up in jail, but this would fulfill his goal, that is to expose the surveillance program to the greatest extend possible.

Hong Kong Baffled by Snowden’s Hideout

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