Chevrolet Spark EV gets 119 MPGe and costs $17k after incentives

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/chevrolet-spark-ev-be-priced-27495-lease-starting-199month.html

by MikeCapone • 13 years ago

36 69 13 years ago

Who wants to sit at a charging station for 20 minutes? I know we as a society have all turned to be more impatient over time. I don't see that working well.

Maybe each charging station should have FREE wifi.

llgrrl_• 13 years ago

Sure... But then 20 minutes for a 100 miles even with not much things to do is good to me!

The problem is less likely the distance but availability of charging stations.

drharris• 13 years ago

Honestly I don't mind that. On a longer trip, now that I have a family we wind up spending that long walking around, stretching, bathroom, etc. So the problem isn't really the wait; it's the fact you'd have to do it every 60-70 miles. But, considering a typical day trip is within 150 miles away, it might add an extra hour or so to your total day. Still not feasible to go cross-country yet, but I think we're getting there.

mikeyouse2• 13 years ago

With only 90 miles range, it's clearly designed to be a commuter car. Plug it in every night, drive it to work and on errands and you'll never have to sit in a charging station for 20 minutes.

lsaferite2• 13 years ago

Personally, this would be a perfect car for my daily commute.

If public charging stations at major parking lots become commonplace, I could easily use it for 90% or more of my driving.

If that became the case, I could easily justify using a rental car for long trips due to the overall cost savings.

rocky1138• 13 years ago

We have them at malls and at work here in Kitchener, Ontario. It's a small-ish town (200k people) in Canada, so if you're in a larger city in the USA I don't see why you wouldn't, too.

vinhboy• 13 years ago

It's not that bad if you consider that many of us sit for more than 20 minutes in traffic pretty often...

I am not suggesting this situation is interchangeable, but just something to think about.

ZanderEarth32• 13 years ago

It's taken me 20+ minutes quite a few times to fill up my car at a regular gas station. Try filling up at a southern california gas station on a Friday afternoon or on a Monday and depending on it's traffic, it can take quite a while.

mahyarm• 13 years ago

People won't sit at a charging station except in emergency situations. I think explicit gas stations will go the way of the dodo and parking lot charging will become the norm.

SpikeDad• 13 years ago

Very nice but it will never gain any sort of mainstream penetration unless EVs get to at least 200 mile range or perhaps charging technology that gives you 100 miles with at most 10 minute charge.

There are very few folks that can say they only drive 100 miles at any one time.

That's why my next car is going to a Prius Plug in (if they EVER get them in all 50 states - sheesh!). This gives me the all EV range for work (15 miles round trip) as well as the extended range for longer trips.

codex7• 13 years ago

According to Nissan (which has sold 63K LEAFs worldwide so far) the average American drives 30 miles a day.

One competitor to the Prius Plug-in is the Ford Fusion Energi, which sports much higher all-electric range, and the Chevy Volt, similar.

freehunter2• 13 years ago

>There are very few folks that can say they only drive 100 miles at any one time.

I thought the majority of EV market research said that most people only commute ~20 miles a day? Regular 100+ mile trips are fairly uncommon even in the US from the figures I've seen surrounding EVs.

numo16• 13 years ago

~90 miles per day round-trip to work, for me. It would be nice if I lived close enough to the office for an EV to be useful/practical.

pkulak• 13 years ago

> There are very few folks that can say they only drive 100 miles at any one time.

You mean, people who can say they will never drive more than 100 miles? Sure. But I also can't say I will _never_ need to transport my desk, bed and couch, but that doesn't mean I drive a U-Haul to work every day.

Most families in America have two cars. Keep the minivan and trade the sedan for an electric. You probably won't have to take the minivan out much. Or, if you want just one car, rent a giant Lexus SUV for trips. You'll still save money.

sp3322• 13 years ago

Most families in America have more than one car. In fact, 0 and 3 are the most popular numbers of cars to own! http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28... So EVs make a lot of sense as one of your cars, which you can use for commuting.

freehunter2• 13 years ago

I have no numbers to back this up, just how it plays out logically in my head, but I would guess that many 3 car families have a car for the kids in the house. At least in my family, when the oldest turned 16 we got a car to share. The car got passed down to younger kids as the older kids moved to college and the younger kids got their license.

It would also make sense that the article says 3 car families prefer a mix of domestic and import, as you can get safe, reliable, and old imports more readily than you can domestic cars. We had a Honda Civic, the parents drove Chevy.

In this situation, buying an EV as the third vehicle wouldn't make sense.

sp3322• 13 years ago

The 21 kWh lithium-ion battery pack, made by A123 Systems,

Wait a sec, I thought A123 went into Chapter 11 last year and renamed itself to B456 after the reorganization? http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/21/b456systems-confir...

Edit: oh of course it's more complicated. A123 Systems LLC is a subsidiary of Wanxiang America Corporation, which bought most of the assets of A123 Systems Inc. out of bankruptcy. http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/AONEQ.PK/key-developme...

kristofferR• 13 years ago

Hehe, going from A123 to B456 is hilariously uncreative. It serves the purpose though, it's quite easy to see the connection.

vecinu9• 13 years ago

This is the same company that was building battery packs for Fisker, which is also "going bankrupt" [1].

[1] http://gigaom.com/2013/05/22/if-fisker-goes-for-20m-thats-an...

MiguelHudnandez2• 13 years ago

They also made batteries for all sorts of high-power applications.

* Killacycle (1/4 Mile in 8 seconds at 168MPH)

http://www.gizmag.com/killacycle-electric-motorcycle-breaks-...

* 36V DeWalt LiFePo packs were 10 of these cells in series.

http://ev.whitecape.org/insight/A123/

Their cylindrical cells really are great performers and are in use all over the place. RC hobbyists would try pretty hard to get a hold of them. Unfortunately they never sold directly to consumers.

codex7• 13 years ago

This car seems to offer a DC fast charging connector which is incompatible with CHAdeMO, the current de-facto standard. Does anyone have the scoop on the dueling standards?

coryrc3• 13 years ago

Don't forget the stupid new J1772 quick-charge! With a handle the size of Rhode Island!

http://b.img-zemotoring.com/media/news/2012/10/j1772-dccombo...

mecameron2• 13 years ago

The SAE combo fast fast charger is well behind the CADdeMO standard for adoption [1]. This is in part because it was approved much later and part because there was no vehicle in the US with the SAE combo. Though they are both are starting from very low bases, and some companies are building chargers with both plugs [2].

[1] http://insideevs.com/chademo-reports-2501-charging-stations-... [2] http://insideevs.com/abb-first-to-bring-combined-charging-sy...

kunai• 13 years ago

I've been wondering why there hasn't been more energy piled on to fuel cell vehicles. They're EVs, but have far longer ranges and zero emissions. So far, only Honda's FCX is the fuel-cell vehicle on sale in the United States; there are no others.

It's very feasible; all you need to do is fill up with hydrogen, and considering hydrogen is so plentiful, it would be cheap, simple, and easy to generate infrastructure. Transport may be an issue due to the flammability of hydrogen, but there can and will be solutions to that.

Why bother with outdated Li batteries, when there are more efficient solutions out there?

codex7• 13 years ago

Hydrogen, being the smallest atom, tends to leak. For this and energy density reasons, the hydrogen must be cryogenically stored, at low temperature and high pressure. I don't think that nut has been cracked. Creating pure hydrogen cheaply and without CO2 emissions from the reformation process is also an unsolved problem, I think.

coryrc3• 13 years ago

Because everything you said is wrong?

Honda FCX has range of only 170 miles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX

And you don't start with a full tank every morning, like you do with a battery electric.

Telsa Model S? Over 200: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

Hydrogen in pure form is not available and must be refined from other sources (typically natural gas).

Fuel cells cost more than battery packs and require very expensive infrastructure to support them (since you can't charge at home, there have to be plenty of stations around).

vecinu9• 13 years ago

Honda's website says the range is 240 miles [1]

I would argue most people don't have 240 Volt electric lines running through their house in North America so they need to 'build' that infrastructure at home too.

[1] http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/specifications.aspx

mecameron2• 13 years ago

There are many reasons fuel cells have not been adopted. They are very expensive (in the $100k+ range), they don't last long, storing hydrogen on the car is hard, and their cold weather performance is bad or they do not work at all [1]. And yes, while hydrogen is abundant, we do not have a distribution system in place.

Contrast this with battery electric cars, they exist today are viable at decent price points, they do not degrade as fast as FCV, they work sufficiently in cold weather (I've driven a leaf in MN winter at -20), and the electricity distribution system in place will mostly meet our needs. Top this off with significant investment from diverse industries to improve battery storage and performance (consumer electronics, car manufacturers, power companies).

[1] (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_challenges.shtml)

ominous_prime• 13 years ago

On a related note, one of the best storage mechanisms we have for hydrogen is in hydrocarbons. There is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a liter of gasoline than in a liter of liquid hydrogen. That same liter of hydrogen also only contains about 25% the energy of the liter of gasoline.

We don't have a good way to contain and transport hydrogen as a fuel.

Spooky23• 13 years ago

They are crazy expensive -- most have significant amounts of platinum. Also, there are fundamental problems with operating them in cold climates.

Fuel cells have some traction in fixed-base applications (backup power for small buildings like fire stations) and for mechanical equipment like forklifts.

codex7• 13 years ago

The success of these EVs may actually impact Tesla profitability: if Spark and LEAF sales take off in California, it means less of a market for the ZEV credits that Tesla sells. However, I doubt any mainstream manufacturer will have surplus ZEV credits to sell, like Tesla does--they'd have to sell more than 13% of their cars as electrics. Currently Nissan's sells only 2% of its cars as electric, worldwide.

NickM2• 13 years ago

Tesla are already profitable without selling ZEV credits though, and they're are expecting that source of income to phase out over the next few quarters anyway. It might hurt them a tiny bit, but it shouldn't have much of an impact in the long term.

codex7• 13 years ago

I don't think that's true. Tesla took in $68M from ZEV last quarter but only made $11M in profits--thus, 600% of their profits came from ZEV. This is a bit of a hand wave, though, because if you know you have ZEV income coming in the door, you might spend more on future R&D than if you didn't.

arthulia• 13 years ago

Not everyone on HN lives in California.

mikeyouse2• 13 years ago

From the very first paragraph:

"It'll first be available in California and Oregon in mid-June as a 2014 model, and at some future point, GM will roll it out in other states and countries."

Of course they only mention California incentives, since Californians will represent 91% of the potential market.

at-fates-hands• 13 years ago

Also keep in mind the $7,500 in tax incentives will most likely differ from state to state. Some states may not even have incentives - but a sub $30K EV is still pretty sweet.

salimmadjd3• 13 years ago

In practicality you can lease this car for free. Using $4+/gallon of gas and with daily commute I did the math (with the leaf, but this should even be a tad better) and the savings (gas price - electric charging bills) we would be saving about $200/month. And this is using our old Honda (which gives decent gas mileage ). Which makes this car free compared to a decent petroleum-based car.

TrevorJ• 13 years ago

Hmm, wonder what the catch is?

Shivetya• 13 years ago

Well for many it would require giving up a level of pretentiousness which would prevent from driving such a down level car.

I think its a great deal. All I am waiting on is a convertible. I would be quite happy if VW would deliver on the e-bugster concept. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/motors/4457777/Volkswag...

I am more than willing to be eco friendly, I just want to keep the fun quotient high.

plorkyeran• 13 years ago

<100 mile range and needing to be able to plug it in at home are the obvious drawbacks. It certainly sounds like a great deal for anyone that these aren't problems for.

jonknee2• 13 years ago

It depends on a very hefty government subsidy (> 36% in CA) that will not be around forever.

salimmadjd3• 13 years ago

The other catch is that you'll be depending on an even more of an energy monopoly. If you have enough of your own solar cells that can charge this car, then the catch goes down. Otherwise if the demand on electricity goes high and PG&E or its equivalent deems it necessary to increase your electric bill then you have no where to go.

tocomment6• 13 years ago

How much is the lease on a leaf? Aren't there pretty strict mileage restrictions with a lease though? I'd imagine that would limit your cost savings?

codex7• 13 years ago

It's almost impossible to drive an EV so much as to go over the lease miles, due to range restrictions and charging times. A LEAF can be had for $200 a month.

vecinu9• 13 years ago

Have you compared the fuel savings for a more recent gasoline-powered auto? You would be surprised to hear that they are becoming more fuel efficient.

How about Hybrids? A Prius can get 50mpg.

Or how about a diesel engine? Then you won't lose that 'fun' factor you mentioned in another post.

jonknee2• 13 years ago

A Prius costs more than $199 a month to lease. So would most any other hybrid.

ck22• 13 years ago

Chevy Cruze (turbo) gets 46mpg (non-hybrid).

Car makers are suddenly figuring out how to make high mpg cars now that they have to meet tightening minimum averages.

salimmadjd3• 13 years ago

>How about Hybrids? A Prius can get 50mpg. The thought of carrying so much more weight for batteries just to get a extra millage that's only similar to diesels makes no sense to me >Or how about a diesel engine. Yes, diesel is one of my favorite options. However, you still save more with this car.

But as the price of oil drops the equation will change.

genwin• 13 years ago

You've still got bills for the gas burner, unless you're willing to give up long distance capability.

tocomment6• 13 years ago

I wish it could look a little more normal.

ksherlock• 13 years ago

To each his own but that thing is ugly.

tocomment6• 13 years ago

My neighbor is a construction foreman. I don't think he could pull up to a construction site in that and get any respect? Right?

Chevrolet Spark EV gets 119 MPGe and costs $17k after incentives

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