Dangerous Ideas: Sorry Paul Graham, I Think it Does Matter Where You Went to College

by jamiequint • 19 years ago

20 53 19 years ago

davidw• 19 years ago

PG wasn't putting anyone down, just saying that there's very little correlation between startup success and where someone went to school. That's a narrow enough statement, and he has enough data on it, that I think it's convincing.

hello_moto2• 19 years ago

Enough data?

1) keyword #1: startup 2) keyword #2: software (80% www, 20% shrink-wrap)

what about other fields? commerce, business, law, agriculture, medical, dental, pharmacy, etc.

eusman• 19 years ago

if I am not mistaken pg's point was that where you got your education doesn't contribute to the success of your company, not that if you are a Harvard student its meaningless like this guy sais!

Philip Greenspun made a similar point in a shorter fashion not many days ago,

"What about homework? Students would do homework either in the library or at home. In 1865 both places lacked television, video games, email, etc. In 2007, the students who do best may be the ones with the best study habits, not those who are the most able. Companies do not rely on lecture+homework for getting work done; they create an environment with limited distractions and keep workers there for most of each day." (http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/08/23/improving-unde...)

, and overall it's a notion that meets acceptance from great hackers and successful people who recognize quality in people, because being early self-taughts gives them this inner understanding.

do these people actually read something before they reply to it?!

if we all look outside our windows we will see that not everyone wants to risk their ass for starting up. So, yes there is also need for colleges, a system to rank individuals abilities.

bluishgreen• 19 years ago

"The student who got an 'A' on her Kant essay is, quite simply, someone who really understands Kant"

This is the point where my bull shit meter hit the red area and then went on to roll on the floor and laugh :)

aswanson2• 19 years ago

Ditto. Can any subject require more subservience to a teacher than the 'Kantian interpretive' type he uses here?

falsestprophet2• 19 years ago

The author, apparently, does not have a good understanding of Kant.

jimbokun2• 19 years ago

Once I completed an essay assignment for a college Shakespeare class, filling in everything I knew the teacher wanted me to say. At the end however, I wrote something like "However, I don't actually believe what I wrote above."

When I got the marked essay back, there were lots of positive comments in the margins, until the last paragraph. There the comment was, "Jim, I think we should discuss this."

I got an A in that class.

jraines• 19 years ago

Actually, though, this has some truth to it. Not only that, but the truth of the statement is directly proportional to the quality of the institution the student attends (or at least the German philosophy department of said institution)

gibsonf1• 19 years ago

There's a fairly good chance that even Kant didn't understand Kant.

Jd2• 19 years ago

I wrote two papers on Kant in uni, neither of which received an A.

My take is that intelligence follows a distribution curve for which graders at any decent college are only able to effectively evaluate the upper quartile, minus the top 1 or 2 percent. If you happen to be pushing the top 1 or 2 percent, you either have to lower yourself to the level of your graders or write your best thoughts and expect to receive less than the best grades for them.

If you follow the first track, you can expect the usual laurels for 'achievement.' If you follow the second, you can expect to increase your intelligence at a higher rate, which may (or may not) have some payback later on.

jey2• 19 years ago

The potentially scary question for me is: how many kids who get As on their Kant papers think they really understand Kant because of it? The kids I hung out with all acknowledged that they were just bullshitting to get the grade, but I don't know if most kids would admit that even to themselves.

Jd2• 19 years ago

An even scarier thought: Not everyone bullshits to get the grade. Some people actually care.

portLAN3• 19 years ago

Whether you think you can, or think you're Kant, you're right.

pg2• 19 years ago

This guy not not only misunderstood what I was saying, but literally made up quotes; e.g. "obedience to authority."

brlewis• 19 years ago

Predictably, yes.

I've learned at least two things watching people misunderstand essays. First, when an essay touches on a polarizing issue, people tend to peg it as one end or the other of that polarization. Second, once people peg an essay as making an argument that they disagree with, they stop paying attention, if they keep reading at all.

I'm not trying to be critical of anyone; I tend to do the same thing.

Quote: I hear variations of this same tired argument probably once or twice a month. (It comes with the territory when you write a book titled How to Become a Straight-A Student).

He has you lumped in with the rest of his critics. "Obedience to authority" is a collective quote from the lot of you, with your words "index of obedience" as just one fuzzy part.

What's funny is in the end he agrees with your last three paragraphs. Quote: It's fine to make the point that college and grades aren't everything. In fact it's important.... I'll be the first say it: College is not necessary for success!

pocketofposies• 19 years ago

It probably doesn't bode well for his ability to really understand Kant.

Alex39172• 19 years ago

And the edited version is still wrong.

Statement 1: high school transcript is largely a measure of obedience

Statement 2: Going to a top school shows only obedience.

Statement 3: Doing well in college demonstrates only obedience.

Notice how statement one matches neither statement two nor statement three, let alone both combined.

thomasptacek• 19 years ago

"What interesting empirical evidence you have. Allow me to refute it with theories."

nanijoe• 19 years ago

The author was obviously looking for attention.Sadly, he got it.

aston• 19 years ago

Cal's a pretty smart dude (grad student at MIT) with a couple of books under his belt (both about doing well at college). I think this essay isn't a fish for attention; it's his worldview. It's actually not so far divorced from what Paul Graham is saying anyway, since he readily admits that you don't need a good college nor good grades to be successful.

jgamman• 19 years ago

hhmmm, guy who makes his living selling books about how to do well at college blasts essay from guy who says 'college... meh'. nuff said.

pg2• 19 years ago

No kidding. I didn't notice that. Now I get what this is about. SEO. Oddly enough that makes it less annoying.

mwerty• 19 years ago

doesn't that count as ad hominem?

portLAN3• 19 years ago

Yes; and conflict of interest is a perfectly valid basis for questioning impartiality as a matter of jurisprudence.

Alex39172• 19 years ago

Rule of thumb: When empirically testable statements are framed as philosophical arguments it's because they aren't supported by the numbers.

rwebb2• 19 years ago

in my experience, the school you go to has a huge impact on what jobs you can apply/get recruited for - i definitely could see it having little impact on startup success...also doubt it has much impact on people who go into sales. both are sink or swim scenarios. but, the education you receive at harvard or mit might be no different from what you get at bunker hill cc, and if you go launch a company you may be no worse off coming out of bhcc, but if you are going into the mainstream workforce, the average MIT/Harvard/Stanford grad has a massively better shot at getting a job at NASA, Goldman, Citadel, Google, etc. Not because the students are necessarily better at those schools (although many would argue that they are) but simply because the alumni base is already embedded in those institutions. i think it is under emphasized for undergrad, but in large part matriculation choice is a decision of what alumni base you want to "buy into".

vlad• 19 years ago

"but, the education you receive at harvard or mit might be no different from what you get at bunker hill cc"

There is no way that is true.

rwebb2• 19 years ago

haven't you seen good will hunting?!

seriously though, one dedicated teacher at bhcc might give you way more than all the TAs you get at harvard. of course the same student that gets a lot out of bhcc would probably soak even more out of harvard. who knows

falsestprophet2• 19 years ago

I think it may have been better to say that the more capable you are, the less it matters where you go to school. (Use your best judgment to apply boundaries to that statement.)

damon• 19 years ago

Let's get Don Dodge (Microsoft is dead hater), this person, and we'll all PG hate for flash-in-the-pan attention.

My favorite:

"Let us not then, Paul, put her (straight-A student) down. She too, just as much as any homegrown entrepreneur, has worked hard and made use of her talents."

Or she drinks with the TA, or her Dad plays golf with the dean, or she's book smart, none of whom I'd probably want to hack with.

edw5193• 19 years ago

WHAT A BUNCH OF BALONEY!!!

Let's call a spade a spade. College is another world. A vacation. Detached from reality. Please, please, please, don't confuse success in school with success in anything that actually matters.

"They got there because they're on the ball."

WTF?!?!?!?

Try paying a mortgage, raising children, staying healthy, caring for ailing parents, making it to work by 8:00 am, and completing 167 other required transactions each and every day, and still keep a smile on your face.

Versus reading books between beers, parties, and hookups.

Face it, what people in the isolated world of college call "work" is what people who pay their bills call "time off". After another 1000 lines of code, 3 more meetings with idiots, 27 more phone calls, hell in traffic, and a deep sigh of relief (it's Friday), I think I'll go to Barnes & Noble and read a little Kant to relax.

Paul was right on. Now STFU.

blats• 19 years ago

Amen.

DocSavage2• 19 years ago

Let's not get carried away and take a reasonable argument in new directions and also to the extreme.

--> "College is.. a vacation. Please, please, please, don't confuse success in school with success in anything that actually matters."

There are some fields where discipline, jumping through (seemingly arbitrary) hoops, and ability to study/capture knowledge is a reasonable indicator of success, e.g., medicine. I'll bet that a student who can't stick through the pre-med requirements is not going to get through the four years of mind-numbing med school and another four to seven years of residency.

--> "Face it, what people in the isolated world of college call 'work' is what people who pay their bills call 'time off'."

I'm not sure if you'd be studying organic chemistry on your time off, and I'm very sure some college students pay their own bills. (I did. I got classified as a grad student very early and paid my way through Stanford via half-time research & programming jobs.)

So while I'm probably going to be down-modded for sticking up for the feckless idiots who decide to spend their time learning things in college, particularly the "elite" ones, I figure I should point out when the anti-college viewpoint gets taken too far. While some may view college as a "vacation", others actually use the resources of a top institution. They get access to cutting-edge faculty, computers, lab equipment, and research that's not being done at smaller institutions. Not everybody is hoping to build a business. And for some professions, there's a wide and deep knowledge base that has to be mastered before you can start work. I know one mother who returned to college after raising her kid and slogged through pre-med studies. It was hardly a vacation. Her success in school mattered.

comatose_kid• 19 years ago

Actually, I'll have to disagree. Studying organic chemistry beats changing baby diapers any day...

edw5193• 19 years ago

First of all, you should never be down-modded for engaging in good debate. And if so, who cares.

You bring up many good points which are, sadly, exceptions to the rule.

I have a B.S. in mathematics and an MBA, both from supposedly "elite" institutions, and I am convinced that almost nothing from any of my classes has contributed to my career as an IT professional (with the exception of the "mind" exercise). I suspect this is true for most college graduates.

As president of my undergraduate fraternity, I learned 100 times more (things that I would need later) than from all my classes combined. Things like managing a budget, running a project, caring for a facility, interpersonal communication, leading others, achieving in teams, etc., etc., etc. If I knew then what I know now, I would have skipped the classes and just joined the fraternity.

And, yes, I do go to Barnes & Noble and read "Men of Mathematics", "GEB", and the work of Dawkins just for fun. Funny, I didn't appreciate any of it when I was forced to read it.

umjames• 19 years ago

Excellent comment. It's true that outside of homework, college is a great place to put off getting a job for about 4 years :)

allenbrunson2• 19 years ago

ugh. what is this doing here? this is the kind of stuff i expect hacker news to be free from. why can't i have a "vote down" button?

jamiequint2• 19 years ago

Its here to provide another viewpoint for people to discuss (criticize) in (supposedly) intelligent debate.

allenbrunson2• 19 years ago

yeah, i totally don't agree with that. this is just noise and distraction, which fritters away the coherency of this site.

if paul graham is able to create a site such as this one that is NOT eventually destroyed by its own popularity, then it may well be a first. noise like this article isn't helping in the least.

jsmcgd• 19 years ago

I love it when PG riles the internet because he's normally right.

hello_moto2• 19 years ago

To you he is. Not to others.

blored• 19 years ago

Paul Graham has his own Valleywag.

jimbokun2• 19 years ago

I think there was a study that showed that Ivies, MIT, Stanford, etc. are really good at finding and admitting very talented, driven people.

However, that same study found that equally talented, driven people who chose to attend a less prestigious school did just as well in their careers as the people who went to the big name schools.

So there probably is a correlation between "I went to Harvard." and "I will be successful." But not necessarily causation.

chaostheory• 19 years ago

I guess the only reason people upmodded this crappy article is so that other ppl on yc can see their own posts?

There are good arguments for college, but this isn't one of them...

ratsbane• 19 years ago

But does it matter what college you DIDN'T graduate from?

jey2• 19 years ago

> Whatever the reason, however, don't put down the kids that got the A's. They didn't get there because of obedience to authority. They got there because they're on the ball. They can process multiple streams of information, and they have trained their mind to think hard, produce subtle, nuanced arguments, and find deep connections between ideas -- all traits, ironically, that most entrepreneurs would say are important.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

portLAN3• 19 years ago

Cal Newport graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Dartmouth College in 2004, and is currently a Computer Science Ph.D. candidate at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Something about a buck fifty in late fees at the public library.

jadagul• 19 years ago

Paul: I think the problem is that you're measuring something slightly different from what everyone else wants to measure, and thus the claim in your first paragraph winds up being too strong.

One way attending an elite college helps is that it makes it easier to learn--both in that the resources are more obviously available, and in that the institution is pushing you to do work. You can graduate from Northwester Louisiana University going out drinking six nights a week and never really doing the work; you can't pull that off at Harvard. But if you're driven enough, 'easier' doesn't matter all that much; if you're determined enough, you can learn to the limits of your own abilities at Harvard or at NLU. Or, hell, you could pull a Ramanujan and teach yourself entirely out of books.

The problem is that most people aren't that driven; most people will get a lot more out of the college where it's easier to learn (I know I've needed the push more than once to keep going aggressively). But those people aren't the ones you're looking for at Y Combinator. If you need that kind of push, you're not going to succeed at a startup, because a startup requires drive and determination more than almost anything else. So your evidence says something like, "in the set of people to whom the institution matters the least, the institution doesn't matter very much." Which is probably true, but doesn't say much about the people who are going to settle down into a nice comfortable job when they graduate (doctor, lawyer, middle management), and aren't driven enough to go for broke the way you did.

Also, institution matters much more when you're doing something where letters of recommendation make a huge difference (say, applying to grad schools, like I am). When my profs write a grad school and say I'm in the top 25% of the math majors here, or whatever they wind up saying, that tells programs something; they've accepted students from my college before, and they can compare me to those other students to get an idea of how good I am. Sometimes this is explicit; I think one of my profs has written a rec letter along the lines of, "this student is about as good as student X whom you accepted three years ago." This gives them very precise data about whether they want me. But if I were going to a weaker institution, they wouldn't be able to get that sort of gauge of my ability; this makes me a riskier pick, and so I'm less likely to be accepted. But once again, this shouldn't factor much into your particular dataset.

euccastro• 19 years ago

[UPDATE 9/7/07: Welcome new readers. Before continuing, I want to point out that the "Dangerous Ideas" series on this blog aim to be purposefully over the top. The idea is to push an argument to its extreme to generate interesting discussion. So take what follows with a grain of salt]

I had a better idea: just not reading what follows. Thanks at least for being upfront about your trolling intentions.

Dangerous Ideas: Sorry Paul Graham, I Think it Does Matter Where You Went to College

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