French Court Orders Popular VPNs to Block More Pirate Sites, Despite Opposition

https://torrentfreak.com/french-court-orders-popular-vpns-to-block-more-pirate-sites-despite-opposition/

by iamnothere • 6 months ago

123 99 6 months ago

torrentfreak.com

ironbound• 6 months ago

They should ask Spain, how the court order blocked Cloudflare CDN at the ISP level.. badly

izacus• 6 months ago

Do the people who asked for that block really think it went badly?

everyone• 6 months ago

One of the benefits of the USA no longer being an ally is we should be able to ignore all this sort of bullshit in the EU now.

Cory Doctorow was talking about it recently. https://youtu.be/3C1Gnxhfok0?si=OzjYwL16yLzQUwuY

wooger• 6 months ago

Eh? What has this got to do with the US? European based sports broadcast rights are an EU & UK issue entirely.

ronsor• 6 months ago

The truth is that the EU loves copyright and censorship just as much as the US does. The only difference is the branding and who pushes for it.

quentindanjou• 6 months ago

It is mostly US companies (Like Universal and Disney) pushing for copyright regulation in EU.

Eddy_Viscosity2• 6 months ago

The EU is perfectly capable of doing its bullshit all by itself. See 'chat control'.

y-curious• 6 months ago

Yes now that the EU is divorcing the US you can now stream soccer illegally! Oh wait… you guys are doing ISP-level censorship on your own

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/wireStory/spanish-soccer...

petcat2• 6 months ago

That article says that Cloudflare is fighting Spain about the censorship.

ISP-level censorship is extremely rare in the US. Copyright and piracy is almost always handled by domain seizure ordered by a court, not ISP-level blocking (as is common in the EU).

speed_spread• 6 months ago

France has its own self important cultural industry to pressure the government. And then sometimes the President himself is married to a pop star.

shlip2• 6 months ago

In this specific case, it's not culture though, it's the sports diffusion rights mafia (LFP, beIN, Canal+).

everdrive• 6 months ago

Pretty ominous line here for ProtonVPN users:

"All VPN providers, except ProtonVPN, appeared in court to argue a defense. They raised various arguments, with the “no-log” defense from Surfshark and NordVPN standing out."

0x3f2• 6 months ago

What's ominous about it?

petcat2• 6 months ago

Proton is relocating their servers out of Switzerland and into Germany over privacy concerns. They are now facing the possibility of the same privacy concerns in EU countries. Ironically, the safest place to host a private VPN service may actually be USA given the way privacy-related things in the EU are going.

LightBug12• 6 months ago

Lazy af, to start with ... considering it's their wheelhouse ...

logicalfails• 6 months ago

Why do individual European countries seem so obsessed with blocking Pirate sites? I assume the majority of IPs being pirated are likely from outside their own country, so the harm is negligible to the individual country's internal revenue streams, no?

alephnerd4• 6 months ago

Media & Entertainment Services are overrepresented in a number of European countries like Italy, Spain, and France. Tier 1 Football/Soccer is a massive revenue generator, and one of the most pirated products globally.

I assume the majority of IPs being pirated are likely from outside their own country

Ever heard of Ligue 1, home to teams like PSG, Olympique de Marseille, Olympique Lyonnais, and AS Monaco, and superstars like Mbappe, Dembélé, and Hakimi? French viewers also watch Spanish, Italian, Belgian, German, and English football/soccer as well.

JanisErdmanis• 6 months ago

Piracy does not pay taxes ;)

3D30497420• 6 months ago

Or make "campaign contributions".

general1465• 6 months ago

In Czech Republic you are automatically assumed to be a pirate and thus paying fee from size of empty memory device (USB, SD, HDD, ..) by GB. So lot of people will justify piracy by "I have already paid for it".

alephnerd4• 6 months ago

Czechia also doesn't have a major entertainment revenue the same way France does. Ligue 1 generates around $3B a year in revenue, while Chance Liga is in the $10M-50M, and most Czech language media remains owned and distributed by state-owned CT, so rights have already been paid. And private sector CME/Nova (formerly owned by Ronald Lauder of "let's invade Greenland" fame and now owned by Petr Kellner's family) and Prima (owned by oligarch Ivan Zach) are used by their owners as political tools.

heraldgeezer• 6 months ago

We have this crap in Sweden also.

Seems like most EU countries have this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

wiether• 6 months ago

Don't worry we also have it in France.

But it's not enough apparently.

sva_• 6 months ago

It's just used as a stepping stone toward more censorship and surveillance

GJim5• 6 months ago

Why do individual European countries seem so obsessed with blocking Pirate sites?

Ask the Disney Cooperation.

A facetious, but true, remark that describes the influence the large American media companies can have in combating piracy over here. Sir should recall the pressure the USA put on Sweden to close down the Pirate Bay; a Swedish site running in Sweden.

alephnerd4• 6 months ago

Not all European countries have media markets dominated by American conglomerates. European conglomerates gladly lobby as much as American ones.

In France's case, it's French conglomerates like Bolloré, Lagardère, Illiad, Dassault, and LVMH that dominate media IP ownership.

In Spain, it's Grupo Planeta and Burlesconi owned Fininvest that dominate IP ownership.

In Italy, it's Burlesconi owned Fininvest that dominates IP ownership.

joelthelion• 6 months ago

France has a strong creative industry, which is why the government has always been very active in this domain.

Some other European are much less concerned about the issue.

alephnerd4• 6 months ago

It's also because telecom, media, and entertainment's represents a much larger component of France's economy compared to other EU states.

Spain and Italy are in a similar boat as France in that regard.

mrtksn• 6 months ago

To be fair, it is ridiculous to advocate that the solution to a broken system is circumventing the laws. Fix for the problems for copyright and intellectual property systems can't be "heroic" VPN companies.

Kim Dotcom become filthy rich by selling access to copyrighted materials and turned into folk hero of the alt-right. He was selling other peoples work per the kilobyte when kids were persecuted for copyright infringement, videos taken down for using a few second of music or a clip from another video . That is not a fair system.

zxcvasd• 6 months ago

it is ridiculous to advocate that the solution to a broken system is circumventing the laws

can you explain precisely why this is a ridiculous concept?

it seems like an extremely reasonable course of action in some situations.

buellerbueller3• 6 months ago

To be fair, it is ridiculous to advocate that the solution to a broken system is circumventing the laws.

The American Revolution would like a word.

marcosdumay2• 6 months ago

The US independence wasn't a bunch of people circumventing laws.

CGMthrowaway4• 6 months ago

This is democratic erosion and why United States founding documents are singular in their importance.

Such censorship is passed by elected legislators, interpreted by an independent judiciary, and subject to appeal (which NordVPN has already begun). From a procedural standpoint, that is democracy. But it ignores liberty, proportionality and limits on power.

Democratic erosion is how governments today expand surveillance, blocking and platform obligations while still technically obeying democratic rules

nathan_compton2• 6 months ago

I think this is a misunderstanding: > This is democratic erosion and why United States founding documents are singular in their importance.

Founding documents don't do shit. What one needs is a culture which is perpetually hostile towards power. All problems of power are social problems. No law, founding document, principle is going to prevent people from doing stuff if they want to do it.

pixelready• 6 months ago

Yeah, for France just compare reactions to these measures to the marching in the streets and general striking behavior you get from austerity measures, and the subsequent backpedaling by authorities. I can only conclude the average person there either just isn’t aware of this, doesn’t understand the implications, or doesn’t value these sorts of digital access erosions in the same way.

observationist• 6 months ago

You also need the formal mechanisms by which rule of law is upheld, protected against mob rule, and has a feedback loop in which course correction is possible. A culture hostile to power isn't stable without stable principles and a leviathan by which those principles persist, which is the whole point of the American experiment. The founding documents laid out a system intended to address the problems of the era, persist into the future, and adapt to the needs of each generation while protecting and maximizing the liberty of each individual.

If all you've got is uniform hostility to power, you've lost the plot and won't ever get past small scale tribalism.

dyauspitr• 6 months ago

A lot of good the founding documents are doing in the US these days.

hypeatei• 6 months ago

The U.S. constitution doesn't do much on its own, though. Sure, you might be able to win a case because of it, but there is no saying how much time you'll spend in prison or how much money you'll spend on lawyers before winning.

Like a sibling comment said: you need a culture that rejects this stuff and punishes it quickly.

CGMthrowaway4• 6 months ago

Without disagreeing with your general sentiment, I would point out (and you can argue over the magnitude/sufficiency of them)-

there is no saying how much time you'll spend in prison or how much money you'll spend on lawyers before winning.

Sixth and eighth amendments.

pif3• 6 months ago

From a procedural standpoint, that is democracy.

Actually, that is democracy, full stop!

Elected representatives vote new laws, and people react according to their interest.

with a pinch of smark, I dare to add:

1. civilised people know that a compromise between personal freedom and societal good has to be defined; discussions have been going for ages concerning where the limit should be, not about whether it should exist.

2. you don't need to be that smart to realize that private remote communications did hardly exist before modern technology; as such, bashing any such law as if was infringing on human rights is ridiculous at best.

betaby• 6 months ago

discussions have been going for ages concerning where the limit should be

I don't remember any discussions about that. It's always a statement 'to protect the children' or 'fight piracy'.

SR2Z• 6 months ago

As an American, I know that right now my words ring hollow - but the European approach to free speech (especially as it's handled in the UK) is incredibly alarming and off-putting.

We should all be tolerant societies, and the problem with tolerance is that you never have to tolerate speech you like.

"Private remote communications" like sending a letter have been around forever. The right of citizens to privacy is enshrined in the constitution of virtually every democracy. Sure there are some allowances that have to be made for common law vs civil law regimes, but if the right to privacy is routinely being violated that is a problem.

jMyles• 6 months ago

hardly exist before modern technology

Do rights only exist to protect the human condition as we suppose it was "before modern technology"?

jmyeet2• 6 months ago

You have too much faith in a 250 year old document. In the last ~5 years we've seen this Supreme Court, despite their alleged "textualist" or "originalist" philosophy, just completley invent things out of thin air. Three examples spring to mind:

1. The "major questions doctrine". This is simply the idea that if the impact of legislation that is passed by Congress and signed by the president is "large" then the Supreme Court gets to overrule the other two branches of government because they want to. Where is that in the Constitution?

2. The "history and traditions text". This is simply the idea that if the political actors on the bench can find (or, in some cses, invent) something that happenned or was "normal" 250 years ago then it is legal precedent. That doesn't seem to apply to abortion however. Benjamin Franklin published instructions on at-home abortions [1]. How is that not "history and tradition"?

3. The court completely invented presidential immunity out of thin air in a country that rebelled against a monarch.

"What's good for companies and their owners?" tends to be a pretty good predictor for what our Supreme Court does.

What we're seeing in France and elsewhere is the dying breath of neoliberalism. Companies are successfully using the courts worldwide to erode individual rights in the interests of profits. The Constitution doesn't protect you from this. The EU's defenses against this sort of thing seem to be eroding, if they existed at all.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-frank...

IAmBroom• 6 months ago

1. The "major questions doctrine". This is simply the idea that if the impact of legislation that is passed by Congress and signed by the president is "large" then the Supreme Court gets to overrule the other two branches of government because they want to. Where is that in the Constitution?

That is a wildly inaccurate take on the "major questions doctrine". You are actually describing SCOTUS power to determine if laws are "constitutional", which was decided (by SCOTUS) in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison).

2 and 3 are well-made points.

josefritzishere2• 6 months ago

10/10 best comment.

uncletaco2• 6 months ago

Hi. You cannot log on to porn sites in Alabama which is subject to those documents. I think it’s crazy that you’re this naive.

NoSalt• 6 months ago

Not sure about Alabama, but accessing porn sites in Virginia (where they are currently banned without adult verification) is easy. Just use the TOR browser, and it works just fine. No need for expensive VPNs.

josefritzishere2• 6 months ago

Notably the USA is experiencing a severe case of "democratic erosion" right now.

llm_nerd2• 6 months ago

I honestly can't tell whether this is satire.

America's founding documents are effectively toilet paper at this point, and have been eroded to the point of being farce. America has a beholden press, a captured media, is governed by unchecked plutocrats, has a farcically busted justice system, and has the foot on the neck of Americans. Having Americans make proclamations at this point -- while their leader is openly threatening militarily annexing actual democracies that rate higher on every metric -- is simply incredible.

Every American needs to stop the online rhetoric about its once glory and spend some time doing some introspection, because Jesus Christ, this is ridiculous.

wmf4• 6 months ago

Do you need pirate live streams that badly?

raw_anon_1111• 6 months ago

It’s not ancient history that the FCC threatened to take away ABCs broadcast license because Trump didn’t like what was said about Kirk or that public school teachers and college professors were fired over Kirk.

LightBug12• 6 months ago

Arrrrrrrrrr, me hearties ... we be needin VPNs fer our VPNs!

drnick13• 6 months ago

Isn't ISP-level blocking of the kind seen in Europe trivially bypassable by using a non-ISP DNS server such as 9.9.9.9 or 1.1.1.1?

Aachen• 6 months ago

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/243456/italie-geeft-cloudflare-b...

"boete" means "fine". With that, I think there's enough loan/brand words that the article lede is readable to any English speaker. Basically, cloudflare has in Italy gotten a 14 million euro fine because it refused to implement blocks for its public dns service 1.1.1.1

Anyway, dns blocks are silly. So long as it's in the dns system proper, you can trivially run a local resolver. Focusing on this now is just a distraction until IP blocks come along and you actually can't reach blocked parts of the internet if the target service doesn't support an overlay network

wmf4• 6 months ago

They're not just doing DNS blocking. Spain is doing IP blocking and other countries will follow.

drnick13• 6 months ago

Then you use a VPN and give them the middle finger?

shlip2• 6 months ago

Specifically, the VPNs argued that their “no-log” policy means they do not track user IP addresses or geolocate their users. Therefore, a court order to block access only for French users would violate their contractual obligations. For now, however, the targeted VPN providers have to find a way to implement the blocking order.

I'm curious about this point. What solution do they have if they want geolocalisation without giving up on privacy ?

wmf4• 6 months ago

Zero knowledge cryptography could work here. You can prove you're over 18 without revealing your age or prove you're in France without revealing anything else. VPN providers might not be skilled enough to implement it though.

llm_nerd2• 6 months ago

Reminder to Americans with a strong sense of American exceptionalism (which is rather incredible given...{gestures broadly at everything happening in the US}): Sovereign states can apply whatever laws they want. They are not beholden to JD Vance, Elon Musk, or Donald "Conman" Trump. They do not care what Americans think about this.

gpderetta• 6 months ago

Yeah! It is not like America is going to come to arrest their leaders!

CommanderData2• 6 months ago

How long until we see orders to block torrents, decentralised tech like IPFS?

VPNs have legitimate uses, if the precedence is set it opens the door to DHT blocking i.e. bootstrap nodes/adresses.

storus• 6 months ago

Will they ban Tor as well? You can visit those sites with Tor easily anyway.

xyzal• 6 months ago

Pirate sites? It would do more good if they blocked X instead.

bdauvergne• 6 months ago

It is all about football matches on IPTV; it has nothing to do with torrent or free speech.

musicale• 6 months ago

French Court Orders Popular Winemakers to Remove Alcohol, Despite Opposition

French Court Orders Popular VPNs to Block More Pirate Sites, Despite Opposition

Related Stories