Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

https://spectrum.ieee.org/ultrasound-cancer-treatment

by rbanffy • 7 months ago

343 119 7 months ago

spectrum.ieee.org

darkerside2• 7 months ago

Dumb question, but isn't there a risk of spreading cancer causing proteins throughout the body with this approach?

ramraj07• 7 months ago

Cancer isn't caused by proteins in the way you might think. Its definitely not infectious at the protein level. You could ask if this disruption spreads out cancer cells themselves and that would be fair to ask. But then the cancer cells were already in your body and were likely trying to migrate to other sites anyway.

amelius2• 7 months ago

Ok, but this might stimulate migration further.

jjtheblunt3• 7 months ago

the article talks about this, the (too vaguely explained) tldr is that pulverization allows neoantigens to be exposed to the immune system rather than hidden within a tumor. i saw elsewhere (weeks ago) an article that this worked excellently, but this article seems to not reference it.

this is one such article:

https://viterbischool.usc.edu/news/2025/11/tricking-tumors-i...

ramoz• 7 months ago

Histotripsy generally seems to stimulate an immune response, helping the body attack cancer cells that weren’t targeted directly by ultrasound. The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood. Researchers are now exploring ways to pair histotripsy with immunotherapy to amplify that effect.

0xWTF• 7 months ago

Histotripsy means "cell pulverizing". We know disruption (pulverization or otherwise) of a tumor bed tends to incite a local inflammatory reaction, and a brisk inflammatory reaction seems to correlate with survival. So the idea here seems to be an extension of high energy ultrasound methods developed for lithotripsy (breaking up kidney stones) to disrupt tumor beds. Not something I'd want for a pre-cancerous lesion, but if it's stage 4 liver mets ... sure. Have at it.

melling• 7 months ago

The machine has been available for a couple years to treat liver tumors. It’s available in several US cities but not widely available. It uses cavitation to destroy the tumor.

https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/histotripsy-for-liver-...

jmward01• 7 months ago

The advancements in imaging, cheap intelligence and non-invasive (mostly) tools like this are amazing. I can easily see a future where we can scan, and analyze, every cell in a body and then selectively manipulate them to achieve the desired effect. I doubt we are actually that far away actually.

jtbaker3• 7 months ago

As someone who was recently diagnosed and treated for Uveal Melanoma (get your annual eye exam and retinal scans!), and occasionally struggling with some intrusive thoughts about the potential for liver mets, reading about this treatment brought me so much joy. Bless Zhen Xu!

moralestapia2• 7 months ago

Hey, I'm curious, did you have symptoms or did you just find it by chance?

jtbaker3• 7 months ago

no symptoms. first identified the lesion a few years back and it hadn't changed over a few subsequent appointments. exam this year, it had grown a small amount 5mmx5mm to 6mmx8mm - still considered small, but the change was enough for the Drs to recommend treatment. I have been treated by Dr. Dan Gombos[1] at MD Anderson and received excellent care.

[1] https://faculty.mdanderson.org/profiles/dan_gombos.html

f6v4• 7 months ago

I have a relative with the same disease. They went to a an eye doctor because of visual artifacts. Turns out the tumor was so big it caused retinal detachment. Basically, most people get diagnosed at a very late stage because it's mostly asymptomatic.

CGMthrowaway3• 7 months ago

What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body? 2024 meta analysis of seeding I didn't see ultrasound in there: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39605885/

Here is a study on AEs specifically from this type of ultrasound: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Quote: "Cavitation detaches cancer cells/emboli from the primary site and thereby releases them into the circulation, leading to metastasis"

agumonkey2• 7 months ago

It would not be the first therapy that may promote spread while curing the primary site. Hopefully there are measures to assess the cost / benefits.

CGMthrowaway3• 7 months ago

For sure. Goes without saying in any cancer treatment that cost/benefit is a prime consideration. Still, that will not stop me from asking the question. You can't do that analysis without the answers after all.

jjtheblunt3• 7 months ago

What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body?

that's discussed in the article

j16sdiz• 7 months ago

I read it three time and can't see anything related.

candiddevmike• 7 months ago

The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood

Seems a little too speculatively worded, IMO.

flir• 7 months ago

If it was true, couldn't you get the same effect by taking a biopsy, fragmenting the cells, and injecting them back in? Like a vaccination, in fact. Somebody must have studied that approach already.

underlipton• 7 months ago

Interested layman here: IIUC, immunotherapy is currently the holy grail for difficult-to-treat cancers like pancreatic. There are designer mRNA vaccines available that have ridiculous efficacy, but they must be tailored to each individual and so are extremely expensive (and are currently undergoing trials). mRNA COVID vaccines have been shown in some studies to increase the lifespan of pancreatic cancer patients. So, it's not hard for me to imagine that a treatment that gives the immune system a crack at learning to identify and destroy pancreatic cancer cells will boost survivability.

Part of the freak-out about the Trump admin's attacking of scientific research (including, especially, of mRNA research) earlier in the year is that it threatened these trials.

softjobs• 7 months ago

It's called the abscopal effect; see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/

pedalpete• 7 months ago

It seems they are initially focused on pancreatic cancer, which has a very low survival rate ~14% [1].

In theory, this may mean that metastisizing this tumour could destroy it in the pancreas, but allow the cells to spread to more treatable locations?

1 - https://www.canceraustralia.gov.au/cancer-types/pancreatic-c...

cowsandmilk3• 7 months ago

?? HistoSonics first target was the liver, second was kidney. Pancreas is the third organ they’ve targeted.

adamredwoods2• 7 months ago

Chemo post-histrophy would remove any lingering cancer cells effectively. Cancer cells need lots of fuel or they stop replicating, and this is what traditional chemo is great at stopping.

makestuff• 7 months ago

Is the idea that you would need less chemo after the tumor is broken up to remove any remaining cancer cells versus just starting out with chemo to remove the tumor?

gamblor9562• 7 months ago

The keto diet is also very good for this because many (but not all) cancer cells can't metabolize ketones. However recent research from Columbia Medical School suggests that it can promote metastasis.

TaupeRanger• 7 months ago

We simply won’t know until they do the inevitable phase2/3 RCTs. They will need to show that this method helps people survive longer or with better quality of life than the current standard of care.

cowsandmilk3• 7 months ago

HistoSonics has studies published with 50 patients. Their upcoming study with 5000 liver patients obviously will give more information, but we already have some.

And with that said, these studies are more relevant than the top of thread linking to a review from 2011 looking at papers from 2005-2006 for ultrasound cavitation causing metastases.

amypetrik8• 7 months ago

What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body?

Welp I put it to you like this - if you DON'T use this then you have a gorillion cancer cells among which very likely one genetically predisposed to adventure throughout the body as turbocancer.

If you use this, or radiotherapy, or whatever, presumably there is just a lump of dead tissue where the cancer was, signifying at best you cured it but at worst, knocked it down - specifically if you knocked it down from a gorillion to a million cells, genereally speaking if the body has been seeded or the tumor persists - the tumor will take longer to rebuild back up where it was. The latter is manifested as another such and such months of life, making the therapy "life extending"

jessriedel2• 7 months ago

Cancers aren't perfectly optimized to metastasize, and metasteses (rather than, e.g., bulk pressure from the original tumor) are usually what kills you. It's perfectly possible that the procedure kills 90% or 99% of the cells in the original tumor but increases migration of the remaining cells such that the net effect reduces patient survival.

spike021• 7 months ago

gorillion

i'd never heard of that counter before so i googled it:

The word "gorillion" is often used by white supremacists and Holocaust deniers in the form of "six gorillion", which mocks the figure of six million Jews that died during the Holocaust.

may want to look at using different verbiage.

yread• 7 months ago

Metastasis is not just random tumor cell going for a hike, they are seeded with extracellular vesicles carrying particular mix of microRNAs, growth factors, vimentin and other stuff.

mcbain• 7 months ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45514378

cogman102• 7 months ago

Due to some family stuff, this is something I've been investigating. My oncologist has said "this will probably be standard care in a few years". The results and studies around this have been excellent.

What this does better than pretty much anything else is it isolates the destruction of cells to just the target. The liver is a VERY "bleedy" organ. It has a ton of blood that flows through it which makes surgery extra hard. In fact, the not this surgery that's next best for our circumstances laparoscopic through the arteries to drop a radioactive pellet in the center of the cancer.

The non-invasive nature of this is going to be very good for the future of cancer treatment. Minimizing scaring and damage to tissue is the number 1 factor to better results.

The only reason my local oncologist does not have this machine is they are still pretty pricey.

When I first learned about this, I thought it was pseudo-science BS. It's crazy what can be done with just sound.

chiph• 7 months ago

I finished treatment for prostate cancer this summer. Most of my time in the x-ray machine was spent getting the alignment right. They'd take a CT scan, do some image analysis and other computations, then adjust the table some small amount before turning the beam on.

I'm curious how they do the alignment with the histotripsy machine. I would think that they could obviously do an ultrasound scan to get the gross alignment correct. But perhaps there is a CT scan afterwards that lets them make the fine alignment. It probably also helps that the liver is a much larger gland so aiming is less critical?

cogman102• 7 months ago

I'm not sure how they do it exactly. I know just the nature of the machine is that it has a massive array of ultrasound emitters and sensors.

doctorpangloss• 7 months ago

Pretty pricey, yes. HistoSonics is a microcosm of the truth of healthcare spending: it is an amazing technology made by possible by deep and sophisticated capital markets. But, better health technology seems to explain more than 50% of the growth of healthcare spending since medicare (1965), meaning all of the faster-than-GDP growth people gripe about. When people talk about slowing health spending to something manageable, they are talking about not just govt not paying for things like histotrispy - not paying is a shell game, nobody chooses to not pay to save their life, and hence faster than GDP healthcare spending growth is observed everywhere in the West, not just the US. They are talking about somehow making the technology not happen altogether.

pointbob2• 7 months ago

Cool

valcron1000• 7 months ago

I'm unfortunately on the same situation. We made a consultation with people from Baptist Health Miami and it seems like there are several non trivial requirements for such treatment (histotripsy), like the number and location of mets. Hope that this improves in the mear future.

dr_dshiv• 7 months ago

When I first learned about this, I thought it was pseudo-science BS. It's crazy what can be done with just sound.

I think we were all thinking that. Acoustic Cavitation has also been proposed as a mechanism for enabling cold fusion. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1067589

YossarianFrPrez• 7 months ago

Per the article, this seems even better than the headline would suggest:

Histotripsy generally seems to stimulate an immune response, helping the body attack cancer cells that weren’t targeted directly by ultrasound. The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood. Researchers are now exploring ways to pair histotripsy with immunotherapy to amplify that effect.

chaboud• 7 months ago

I had the opportunity to meet with folks from Histosonics at a Canopy Cancer Collective (pancreas cancer focused group - https://canopycancer.org/) annual meeting a couple of years ago. They had shown very promising results (and approval) with liver cancer, and the applicability to any soft-tissue openly-addressable masses (e.g., not brains in skulls, not lungs full of air) seemed very likely, based on the physics. (Note: I'm a consumer electronics and ML engineer, not a medical devices engineer).

I'm excited to see this option become more broadly available. The ability to precisely target and illicit an inflammatory response is impressive, and Whipples are no joke.

lostsock• 7 months ago

The awesome "What's your problem" postcast had an episode with the CEO of this company recently which I really enjoyed: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/whats-your-problem/using-sou...

jbverschoor• 7 months ago

Does this work with lung cancer?

bobim2• 7 months ago

Probably not as lungs are behind the rib cage and filled with air, making two sources of spurious reflections that could be dangerous with high intensity ultrasounds.

PaulHoule3• 7 months ago

In general there is a lot of work on ultrasound stimulation now, some of it is scary in other ways:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-65080-9

which could imaginably lead to wireheading or something like Niven's "tasp".

gsf_emergency_612• 7 months ago

There's also

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46008332

Are these guys losers,clueless, or born psychopaths?

I hope for another category :)

PaulHoule3• 7 months ago

Well when I was younger I was into chemical yoga, and you know I lived this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uEMOeDZsA

_sxou2• 7 months ago

Could this be applicable and available to the public within a reasonable time horizon? My mother is dealing with a brain tumor located in the pons, and no surgeons will operate because of its location, as the risk is too high. Radiation treatments have also been exhausted and have already caused some necrosis. There was another form of light-based therapy, but it is experimental and carries an incredibly high risk as well. The prognosis has never been good, but we’ve been holding out hope. At this point, treatment consists of nonstop chemotherapy.

bobim2• 7 months ago

Getting the US through the skull bone is next to impossible due to the acoustic impedance mismatch with surrounding tissues. As a stranger I'm deeply sorry for your situation, and thought your question should be answered somehow...

If you want to dig a little bit, the team of Mathias Fink in Paris explored "time reversal" techniques to get through the skull: one have to emmit from the tumor location, listen with a huge array, reverse the signature and blast. I don't know if this ended with a medical device.

Take care.

_sxou2• 7 months ago

Thanks for the kind words and the response, I'll take a look. Even though it feels fruitless as we've already got doctors working on it and likely much more aware of what's available or coming. I'm just a software engineer who's trying to make sense of it all.

buu700• 7 months ago

Thanks for posting this. Sounds super promising, and the explanation of histotripsy's mechanism of action is compelling.

Given the 2023 approval (for liver tumors) and oversubscribed $250m funding round announced in October, it seems like there's a ton of momentum behind this. I also see that the treatment is available at my local hospital system (Inova), which is an encouraging sign of its general availability.

Anyone who's commenting to ask whether it's an option for you or a loved one, check your state's right-to-try laws. Virginia and various other states do apparently have right-to-try laws that cover medical devices: https://triagecancer.org/state-laws/righttotry.

Fuck cancer.

maxdo• 7 months ago

from purely physics , how is cancer cell different from regular cell to react with ultra/infra? is it so different?

rincebrain2• 7 months ago

It's not.

The key thing is, one of the things most tumors need to do to get past a certain point is avoid getting caught being tumors.

If you can very selectively cause precise tissue death, from any method, then your body will suddenly start looking askance at any tissue that looks like the secretly-full-of-tumor-markers corpse it just found.

And ultrasonic cavitation means you can, in theory, cause very precise tissue death with even less surrounding effect than radiation.

Nevermark• 7 months ago

Being non-invasive and incredibly precise, this could be a fantastic therapy for brain cancer treatment.

Assuming the costs of the precise powerful machines needed are not too high (this isn't anything like MRI), it could be a therapy for almost any kind of cancer tumor, and even small potential/pre-cancer tumors that are safe to remove without bothering to do a diagnosis.

pointbob2• 7 months ago

Heavy metal has entered the chat.

aitchnyu• 7 months ago

Will this be applicable to belly/visceral fat? It could be wildly popular.

throwup238• 7 months ago

Yes. There are several methods like high-intensity focused ultrasound (UltraShape and Liposonix) and the ultrasonic cavitation found in medspas.

The former is somewhat effective but based on early research shares the same problems as other active fat loss treatments: lysing the fat cells causes all the relevant hormones to get released into the bloodstream, causing reabsorption by other fat cells. It’s a very gradual process and quite expensive.

KnuthIsGod• 7 months ago

A random popular article on ieee.org is not a Phase 3 RCT published in the NEJM.

Click bait is click bait but reliably reels in the gullible.

darubedarob3• 7 months ago

I wish there was a way todo chemo locally only. Like a body part has cancer, you add a bypass to that part and put that bodypart on a eccmo chemo poisoning only the affected system part. After that flush out and reconnect.

amashal2• 7 months ago

We are more than a decade away from knowing if Histosonics technology will actually be a meaningful treatment modality. It definitely is 'cool' in that there is no incision. However, whenever you deliver ultrasound energy from outside of the body, accuracy goes down; you are also limited by anatomy in the path of the ultrasound (e.g. going through the rib cage with ultrasound is not trivial). Folks I have spoken to who have bought these units say they are only allowed to use them if the tumor is superficial (i.e. near the skin). On top of that patient motion due to breathing definitely causes inaccuracies and complications. One doctor said it's an expensive paperweight (but it does bring patients in who ask for it).

Also, the clinical efficacy is not fully understood. Researchers are most excited by an enhanced abscopal effect (i.e. natural immune response), but that's not a proven phenomenon. Finally, it is really expensive (~$1.5M) so it will be difficult to scale outside of research hospitals and cancer centers. Of course, I don't want to be too negative. It's a win for patients when they have more options.

Full disclosure: I am co-founder of Current Surgical, where we are developing a minimally invasive system based on miniaturized focused ultrasound to achieve precise thermal ablation (not cavitation). Our device can both see and destroy tissue from the same sensors, we can achieve millimeter accuracy. And because the technology can be integrated into any number of surgical tools (needle, catheter, etc) we can potentially reach any anatomy.

KellyCriterion• 7 months ago

May I ask: > Folks I have spoken to who have bought these units say they are only allowed to use them if the tumor is superficial <

Is this because of: - the efficiency is going down massivly (maybe into useless)

- using it "below superficial" might cause other/new problems?

amashal2• 7 months ago

There are a couple of reasons.

1. There is a wavelength and penetration depth trade off. For better accuracy you need smaller wavelengths (i.e. higher frequencies) but at higher frequencies ultrasound pressure gets absorbed at a higher rate, making it challenging to get the required pressure levels deeper into tissue.

2. Ultrasound focus can deflect as it travels in tissue (tissue is a non-linear material and multiple tissue types impacts wave propagation). The deeper you try to focus, the more likely that there is a deflection; thus your focus point won’t be exactly where you were planning.

Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

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