India To Biometrically Identify All Of Its 1.2 Billion Citizens

http://singularityhub.com/2012/07/10/india-to-biometrically-identify-all-of-its-1-2-billion-citizens/

by millerski150 • 14 years ago

84 64 14 years ago

joelrunyon2• 14 years ago

I realize this may be a very american perspective, but I can't imagine any tradeoff that would make this "worth it" for me.

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. - Benjamin Franklin.

Jabbles• 14 years ago

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Without the word "essential", this quote sounds very absolute and idealistic, which was of course not the intention.

sgt2• 14 years ago

Exactly the quote that came to my mind too. Sometimes you need to be somewhat absolute and idealistic. I feel sorry for India.

tzs• 14 years ago

The word "temporary" is also quite important in that quote, and often omitted.

AndyIngram• 14 years ago

Where are they giving up liberty. You have to look at the problems from an India perspective not a first world one. Personal identification is a solved problem here but in India lack of trust and lack of access prevents many people from gaining liberty. This system will allow a greater number of people to access government programs, education, and financial tools like bank accounts. That being said there needs to be some safe guards in place to prevent the police state scenarios that many here seem to be worried about.

scdoshi2• 14 years ago

I can understand the liberty v/s security implications, but I don't understand when people in the US feel they are better off in terms of liberty.

This is essentially SSN implemented in the 21st century. And you can't get a job, buy/rent a house, or get a bank account without an SSN

The fact that you can be anonymous in the U.S. and still live a life inside of regular society is a complete myth. And I think most people accept the fact that the SSN is in fact necessary.

India does not have any such system, instead of the SSN, they have ten different numbers attached to a person. All this does is make the ID part of it uniform.

The biometric part is not the focus here, the ID part is, which pretty much every developed country already has. The biometric part is just a means to get the ID part done better.

Just to reiterate, I understand the liberty v/s security implications, but americans have already given theirs up for security, so maybe that's just the price to pay of being a developed nation.

Negitivefrags• 14 years ago

I've actually noticed that citizens of the US need to provide their SSN in a huge number of situations that I would never need to provide any kind of government identification.

The closest thing we have to an ID that every citizen has is an IRD number for the purposes of tax. You would give that to your bank and your employer so that they can pay tax on your behalf, but even that is optional. If you don't provide it then they will assume that you pay tax at the highest rate.

Compare to when I was staying a friends house in the US and heard him give his SSN to the phone company when he was troubleshooting his internet. I find it baffling that you would need a government issued ID number just to form a relationship with a phone company.

joelrunyon2• 14 years ago

But the biometric part means that scanners/computers/systems can ID you with your consent and/or knowledge. At least with a SSN, you have to consent and give them it.

nacker3• 14 years ago

Oh scdoshi. Where to start!

I guess with this: "The fact that you can be anonymous in the U.S. and still live a life inside of regular society is a complete myth."

True

" And I think most people accept the fact that the SSN is in fact necessary."

False.

"I understand the liberty v/s security implications, but americans have already given theirs up for security, so maybe that's just the price to pay of being a developed nation."

What??????

Good God man! Americans have made a HUGE number of EXTREMELY bad decisions, from insane foreign policy to eating so much crap we are dying from it, to bankrupting ourselves!

"just the price to pay of being a developed nation." NOT!!!!

Just total insane stupidity! Do not copy the U.S.!

patrickgzill• 14 years ago

This will allow massive credit expansion in India, as being trackable means lending companies can more easily identify people. Same thing has happened in the Philippines over the last 10 years, easy credit has exploded.

mindslight• 14 years ago

And this is a good development? Institutionalized credit is merely a market-based mechanism for the gradual erosion of freedom. It brings economic gain in the short term, as people are able to step outside the prejudices restricting their informal local credit. However for the long term, just take a look at the debt treadmill most everyone in the US is on.

(idk why you're being downvoted; you're correct)

nacker3• 14 years ago

Exactly. No doubt the scam that is Grameen Bank will be licking their chops.

Microcredit or Macrowelfare: The Myth of Grameen https://mises.org/daily/2375

sgt2• 14 years ago

I'm not sure whether OP thinks this is a good thing or not, but I certainly hope not. Being universally trackable by government is one of the most evil things I can think of right now. Once this starts, we know what's coming in a few years - an RFID in every person (or similar, possibly more advanced technology). Say goodbye to individual freedom.

gphilip• 14 years ago

The "ration card" is another, nearly universal, identifying document in India which serves another purpose: this card is mandatory if its owner wants to get grocery at affordable (I hope!) rates from the government's Public Distribution System.

Village loan sharks love to take this card as security for their cut-throat loans to the poor, because they know that its owner will try their level best to not jeopardize their access to this card: no card means the kids starve. Since the ration card is issued by the government, it is (well neigh) impossible for their clients to get a duplicate issued, as well.

This new thing will probably end up as one more piece of paper/plastic for the poor to spend their life redeeming from the shylocks.

scdoshi2• 14 years ago

The idea is to solve exactly what you are describing (whether the execution actually matches it or not is a separate matter).

The 'ration card' provides both, a way to check identity and a way to keep track of rations disbursed.

By separating out identity part and attaching it to your biometric data, at least theoretically, if someone holds your ID card hostage, you can go to the issuing authority, and get another one issued, because you can prove your identity without any form of paper.

There will be huge problems with implementing this, as any large system tends to have. But once the dust settles, it should make life much more convenient for the poor and everyone else.

intended10• 14 years ago

For who? The people living on 20 rs a day? Or near the poverty line?

Well that's not how it's being used.

For the middle class, that system is in place already. Heck credit growth is pretty aggressive already, if anything steps are being taken to reduce its growth.

So that's an overall goal which is being solved elsewhere and doesn't need A terribly designed system to control identity.

And you trust the govt with it?

Currently it's been made compulsory to own one of these to get gas, in one state.

This is after the charter stated that no service would be made such that it required per ownership of such a card.

anuraj• 14 years ago

Given India's track record on surveillance, this can become a security nightmare for its populace. The chances of this data being misused by various detrimental interests are very real and is already happening. India need to be much more open and populace needs to be more educated before biometric identification can achieve positive outcome.

jackfoxy• 14 years ago

Didn't even make it through the fist paragraph before I hit this gem

A small group of entrepreneurs within the government...

IMO says a lot about the biases of the reporter and probably the site as well. Franklin may be frequently misquoted (as pointed out by another commenter here), but the liberty/security trade-off is real. Personally I tend to err on the side of liberty idealism. It's clear there are plenty of interests pulling for the other side.

smokeyj2• 14 years ago

So many gems in this one.

> One area in desperate need of disruption is the delivery of government services.

Seeing disruptive describe a bureaucratic process is tickling.

> Over time, systematic corruption and mismanagement have bred bad data, false information and outright fraud ... Poor laborers and migrant workers, in particular, are forced to travel far from their homes to collect their wages and benefits, having to dole out bribes to predatory middlemen along the way.

So now we're empowering a corrupt monopoly with biometric intelligence on every citizen in the country. What could possibly go wrong..

ftuiz• 14 years ago

take a look at this one,i can already see where they are going.they will en-roll everyone or force everyone to en-roll so that big corporates can spy on us/profile us .. man this is sad

http://bangalore.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/3600-bengal...

(note :i live in India)

neurotech12• 14 years ago

This gets dangerously close to Minority Report [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film) ] type scenario where political dissidents or a minority group, can be denied all services by a corrupt official.

Fingerprint scanners can be defeated by a determined person. Retinal scanners will probably be defeated in the next 5-10 years. The government will claim "The retinal scanner authentication database is never wrong" until they are proven wrong.

shell0x• 14 years ago

What are the advantages of using this system over a normal passport? It seems like just another country trying to get a good reputation as a surveillance state :(

binarymax• 14 years ago

A fascinating article was in the New Yorker about this here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_... (sorry it's behind a paywall).

To the naysayers, it's a very bold move to empower impoverished and give them the ability to claim benefits...and not some anti freedom push. In any case I'm not living in India so I can't really comment, but again the situation is very interesting.

nacker3• 14 years ago

"it can also be used to offer hundreds of millions their greatest chance at inclusion and a prosperous life."

This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

The banks are SO well known for their unselfish altruism. After all, they have pretty much raped the first world, and indebted generations to come. How lucky the Indian masses are, to be the latest objects of their, uh, generosity ?

kindahero• 14 years ago

one example for how far our people can go with corruption., few days back the officials came to our village to issue these cards., they issued two cards for each (one for one hand, five finger prints are needed for one card) to claim the commission from government.

intended10• 14 years ago

Wow. Govt chaps or outsourcers? Mind giving the village name? It would be useful if it could be converted into an rti request, or just simply for detailed knowledge on the types of scams one can expect.

JumpCrisscross3• 14 years ago

The Indian biometric project is not unique in its aims nor scope to uniquely identify its population, simply the technology used to generate an ID.

In the U.S. we have SSNs (social security numbers) and driver's licences. India is rolling out a 21st century answer to the problem of uniquely identifying its population with technology to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities being created.

The technology gives the Indian government the ability to "track" its citizens no further than the American government can "track" hers through their SSN-linked bank accounts, cell phones, and government office activity. In a nut shell, the technology hashes an individual's iris and fingerprints into an ID, allowing for the ID to be easily verified in a de-centralised manner. In contrast, verifying a U.S. ID requires patching in to a centralised database.

Can an iris scan and fingerprint be faked? Of course. But I'm not sure who's arguing for the security of U.S. identity cards given that a stroll through Greenwich Village will afford me multiple solicitations for fake IDs.

Ignore even the problems of having a democracy where you don't know who your citizens are nor if nor how many times they've voted and think about how difficult it would be for an individual with no verifiable identity to enter into a long-term contract. Would you give him a mortgage? Or a loan to plant his fields? Knowing well that if he doesn't feel like paying you back he can change the name he goes by and you won't know the wiser? On the other side, if you're a government official who knows nobody knows how many people are in your district, wouldn't you feel less comfortable embezzling funds from intended recipients if they had a way of proving they never received their handout?

stfu• 14 years ago

Am I the only one who is wondering how this comment ended up on top of this discussion?

The argument seems highly problematic. How far is a government allowed to go "to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities". Let us pretend for a moment, that these are indeed core issues, that justify a billion dollar project.

If a government is allowed to intrude personal freedom just because the technology is there, why don't we make caring a gps tracking device mandatory for everyone leaving their registered residence. I mean, it is keeping the streets save, right? What gives a government the right to demand from someone fingerprints and iris scans, but not demand the GPS tracking or mandatory DNA samples of every citizen.

If we go on and just lament that this is just how it is and government has to keep the streets clean, these steps are consequential. After all a few decades ago nobody cared about fingerprints, and it was purely some crime-fighting technique. And so are DNA samples and monitoring anklets today.

U.S.'s tracing abilities given in the example based bank accounts or cell phones are voluntary, i.e. I can take a bag of cash and a throw away phone and government agencies would have to put substantial manpower into keeping track of my actions. With the iris scan, all they need to do is have a high resolution camera installed at the front of the store and they know where I spend that money.

JumpCrisscross3• 14 years ago

"just because the technology is there"

The Indian government isn't collecting biometrics for fun. Every government, particularly democracies and those with social spending, need to know (a) who is in their country, and, (b) said individuals can reliably prove their identity. Instead of filing forms and pictures in a centralised database the Indian government has opted to generate unique IDs hashed from biometrics.

"What gives a government the right to demand from someone fingerprints and iris scans, but not demand the GPS tracking or mandatory DNA samples of every citizen."

Slippery slope fallacy. By this logic any potential for data collection is totalitarian. Note that to gain U.S. residency (or, for that matter, work at a U.S. financial institution) I had to give my fingerprints to the FBI.

"With the iris scan, all they need to do is have a high resolution camera"

Facial recognition technology would be easier, cheaper, and as technologically inaccessible as planting high resolution cameras looking at peoples' irises everywhere.

superuser23• 14 years ago

Please clarify how reliable government-issued ID impacts personal freedom. You're making an awfully big leap here.

This argument seems to be based on an assumption of the right to anonymously take out loans, make bank transactions, and conduct business with the government. That right simply doesn't exist. People don't have a right to passable fake ID either, which is all this system really prevents.

Requiring ID for activities that shouldn't require it (prepaid cell phones, flight, all electronic forms of US dollars) is an invasion of privacy. Having more secure ID for activities that do isn't.

sshah• 14 years ago

Indian govt, like any other, provides a lot of subsidy to the needed. They have some programs and funds to do this. However, most of the funds don't reach people who need them. Why - too many middlemen, corruption, etc. Through this program they are trying to cut the middlemen or at least hoping to. Most other forms of ids can be faked, these possible in Bond movies but difficult in India.

intended10• 14 years ago

No, not really.

1) never forget Indian ingenuity to break systems. Jugaad is the proper term.

2) the data itself is being faked already. In this thread there is a first hand account of people going to villages and making duplicate UID cards. 2 separate cards for each hand.

3) data has already been lost and stolen

4)overlaps. The current system already has some thing like 1 million to .1 million overlaps from one set of calculations I recall. On top of that you have overlap everytime a new generation gets added to the database.

Do you want to be the person with a faulty card in india? Do you want to see what happens to poor people who have no access to the net?

pycassa• 14 years ago

good.. if they start planning now.. we, indians would get these at the end of this decade...

ashray4• 14 years ago

I think our HN conspiracy theorists have missed the point by a bit. Lets just put it this way, India still has a ton of illiterate people. The only way that they can usually sign documents/enter into contracts is by placing their (inked) fingerprints on documents.

There is no unified ID system in India so far. There is no unique ID card that each citizen can carry. This is a 21st century solution to a problem that has existed for a long time.

You know how you open a bank account in India ?

- Walk into the bank

- Fill up a form

- Provide a photograph

- Provide a proof of ID (voter's ID, passport, etc.)

- Provide a proof of address (this can be a voter's ID, utility bill, etc. - has to be different from the one above..)

Here's where stuff starts to get real interesting. You can't get a voter's ID without a proof of address (that can be a bank statement, utility bill, etc.) - the same contraints apply to the others. So you can't get a proof of address without a proof of address. See where this is going ? (or isn't :P)

The lack of a unified ID system in India is a massive problem. An Iris Scan + Fingerprints are the only way to really ensure that a person is who they are supposed to be. (many burn victims do not have fingerprints, many blind people may not have irises)

Personally, I welcome the opportunity to be able to open a bank account/do other administrative shit with just one ID card. I've had enough with all the extra nonsensical documentation that every establishment requires.

I certainly see the privacy/trackability downside to it. But lets be honest. I've been to the US and Europe. Their respective governments have my fingerprints/iris scans (needed for visas), it's not really a big deal if the Indian government has them too. The global tracking of populations ship has already sailed. India's just getting on the bandwagon as far as that is concerned.

wisty• 14 years ago

Also, remember the society of dead people? People who were declared legally dead (often by relatives) and were unable to prove their existence to the government?

chimeracoder• 14 years ago

For those who are curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_De...

intended10• 14 years ago

Wait, so a PAN card, A ration card, license, passport, voters ID card are insufficient options?.

I know someone personally who got her passport soon after marrying, moving to her in laws place and having no voters id, valid passport, or any other proof of residence.

It was done logically, by showIng that she was married. The person she was married to lived at x location. And finally that x location was the residence of her in laws.

Further the requirements for address proof are governmental clauses. Those will never go away, even with a UID.

And this is the same govt that ensures people sign their names and provide photo ID every time you use a cyber cafe, and every time you visit a hotel.

The same people who said that a UID wouldn't. E compulsory to avail of govt services. Then made it compulsory if you want to get gas.

Meta: I've followed this topic since inception, years ago. Since then I've found that the defenders of this service are uniform in their thinking, they all believe that the benefits are invaluable and the costs overplayed or irrelevant in the face of the gains.

Edit: just because other people are doing it isn't good enough a reason to follow suit

ashray4• 14 years ago

I think you missed a point there. Maybe your perspective is one of having a fixed residence for all of your life. Unfortunately, my life didn't progress that way and every time I move to a new place I have to go through the same rigmarole all over again.

I can assure you that I'm not alone in this. I don't see why a UID can't pave the way for further changes in government clauses.

Furthermore, I know of quite a few other countries where their ID cards help them do tons of things that in India are neigh impossible without further documentation.

As for cyber cafes and hotels requiring IDs - hotels everywhere require IDs for the most part and the cyber cafe bullshit is because of idiotic govt. representatives not understanding the whole terrorism through email communications bit.

I find it quite ridiculous that India doesn't have any sort of unified ID system so far. I've been traveling for the past one year and have been through several countries, almost all of which have their respective ID systems. These IDs help them open bank accounts, get credit cards, cross borders, and do much more.

There is certainly a need for it in India.

nmridul3• 14 years ago

Let me tell you what it is trying to solve.

If I'm a poor and illiterate in India, I neither know what special programs or subsidies the government has for me (I'm illiterate and the news does not reach me).

The middle men already has forged my identities and the amount that the Government sent me is already shared by them in the middle.

This is what the government is trying to solve. To make sure that what is being sent is received by the correct person.

It may not solve it entirely. But at the very least it will make it difficult for the middle men to forge the identities now. Or at the worst case, the middle men will have to share a portion of what they receive with the end user (the poor me).

When you look at it from a first world perspective, then your freedom and government control seems to be the main concern.

But when you have had no food for the last week and you don't have your own house and have no way to feed your family, then the freedom to shout against my government is my last priority.

intended10• 14 years ago

But that's not what it's being used for. UID compulsory for gas? UID being used for all sorts Of things other than assistance to the poor.

UID data being compromised already - first hand account in this thread.

Constant feature creep. Every single person who has such positive hopes needs to take a good long look at its real implementation, it's reall failings and it's drawbacks. Without looking at potential possible positives.

nmridul3• 14 years ago

Cooking gas is heavily subsidized in India. Maybe not many poor are able to afford it, but still the lower middle class rely on this subsidized gas. And this is one way the government can try to reduce the misuse. I'm not saying it will completely remove the misuse. But any reduction is good for the society.

agpen• 14 years ago

The Indian people do not passively wait for government permission to have a voice, they buy it every day with action and sometimes with their lives. Large areas of India have reduced or virtually non-existent government control thanks to the efforts of the Naxalites to free themselves from a government still mired in racist traditions and an economy shaping itself to the worst excesses of neoliberal capitalism.

If the poor have no food or homes it is because they have been taken from them by a greedy government and a brutal police force. They will reclaim their lives and achieve justice not through waiting for liberal reform or by surrendering further control to a government instituting bare-minimum programs in an attempt to appease away the inevitable, but through continued people's war.

India To Biometrically Identify All Of Its 1.2 Billion Citizens

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