Fasting & Programming

http://www.mahdiyusuf.com/post/28530166837/fasting-programming

by mccarthyjm • 14 years ago

177 174 14 years ago

paperwork• 14 years ago

Very interesting, my experience has been slightly different this year.

Normally my brain is thinking 10 different things at one time. It is fairly difficult for me to focus (more so since I work at an office that has 5 TVs that I can see, and a couple of channels I can hear). The first few days of fasting, I was surprised how easily I was able to focus. Frankly I was far more productive than I normally am. Unfortunately, I've since reverted to the natural state of affairs -- I can no longer tune out TVs, youtube clips, etc.

In previous years, the first few days would actually be extremely difficult. I now realize that I was getting what is often called the "carb flu." This year, before Ramadan, I was on a low carb diet (Tim Ferriss' Slow Carb). Perhaps because of that, my body was already used to fewer carbs.

Hunger is not debilitating and if I could have water, I could probably 'fast' for 48 hours pretty easily (such fasting is actually recommended by the likes of "East Stop Eat" author Brad Pilon).

stcredzero• 14 years ago

> The first few days of fasting, I was surprised how easily I was able to focus.

Back in olden times, the occasions when you haven't been eating are precisely the times to focus.

tejaswiy• 14 years ago

> Normally my brain is thinking 10 different things at one time. It is fairly difficult for me to focus (more so since I work at an office that has 5 TVs that I can see, and a couple of channels I can hear).

I think a part of the reason why programmers prefer working late hours (late as in after 12 in the night) is that the brain is sufficiently tired as to not be able to jump all over the place. You'd focus on one thing : Your code.

enqk• 14 years ago

Or you think you are focusing on code, and just are too tired to notice context-switches or general slowness.

Killah9112• 14 years ago

I suffer mainly from the caffine withdrawal. But this is good in a sense. By the end of Ramadan, I typically rid my system of a lot of junk that I'm used to putting into my body. Also, the effects of "performance enhancing" chemicals not being there also means you just have to work harder at what you do. While this may be hard in the beginning, it gets much better as time goes on.

Despite all of this, I know all about Ramadan code. After 5pm my blood sugar drops low enough that I can barely write a line of code without introducing serious bugs or typos. So, I try to get most of the coding done in the morning.

ramblerman3• 14 years ago

Fasting is actually very healthy. Not drinking any fluids, not so much.

Killah9112• 14 years ago

I drink 3 glasses of water in the early AM meal + 1 glass of milk and then 4-6 glasses in the evening. I even fit in a light workout before breaking fast in the evening. So, dehydration isn't too much of a issue (at least if you're working indoors).

stephengillie2• 14 years ago

Don’t skip meals to save time. 5 good hours are better than 10 bad ones.

Can we apply this to sleeping too?

jgrahamc• 14 years ago

Fasting appears in many of the world's religions. I'm curious about the roots of fasting that have been codified into religious practice. Did the ancients discover that fasting was good for you?

stephengillie2• 14 years ago

Maybe it was a way to get people to ration food over winter?

icebraining• 14 years ago

The fact that it was popular doesn't mean it was good. Bloodletting was an extremely popular practice too, but it's now a consensus that's it's harmful except in very specific situations.

philbarr• 14 years ago

Although people did bloodletting because they thought it was good for you.

mhd• 14 years ago

No, they saw that hunger is bad and nobody would want to go hungry voluntarily. Suffering for your faith, mortification of the flesh, self-flagellation, etc.

Certainly not a "Diet secret of the ancients", some beneficial side-effects are mostly accidental. (And to be honest, going hungry wasn't exactly hard throughout most history.)

But, well, we've got pretty deent beer out of it.

ramblerman3• 14 years ago

There are definitly modern (non religious) proponents that argue fasting <=20 hours has it's health benefits. Even buff fitness gurus.

But abstaining from water as well is not recommended. At least not in any material I've seen.

adrianwaj• 14 years ago

Good question. I think it's a hack: on the one hand it supposedly frees up energy from digestion to concentrate on prayer or repentance, on the other hand I don't feel the thinking is as deep: it locks one into a survival mode thinking - which may or may not help the spiritual practice. Like driving when tired: only the needed parts of the brain that are required switch on. So concentration improves, but the thinking is not as deep (that is when hunger pangs don't distract!)

Supposedly fasting also promotes longevity by affecting gene expression, and the same effects can be obtained from resveratrol. Additionally, small fasts are meant boost human growth hormone, hence the warrior diet: only eating at night. Fasting before and after exercise boosts it the most.

A doctor I once knew said the reason they put new doctors on such long shifts is so they stop thinking and behave more according to text book.

Anyhow, check out this article/podcast about a fasting, and in particular regarding someone grossly obese for 1 year and 17 days: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/07/24/3549931.ht...

"His weight dropped from 207 kilograms to 82 kilograms. Some five years later, he had regained only 7 kilograms."

I wonder how mentally active he was during that time.

quasistar• 14 years ago

While the author of the linked article expiates the hit coding performance can take when fasting I have personally observed an interesting phenomena during my observation of Ramadan. Namely, I can experience moments of acute lucidity and penetrating insight into a problem at hand.

Usually this occurs when I am in the midst of something that requires a good bit of effort such as tackling a thorny algorithmic conundrum or analyzing a particularly complex call stack. If I attune my mind to repress the pangs of bodily need I occasionally feel as if the external world melts away and I slip into an almost mystical state of oneness with the task at hand. Needless to say, I have been surprised immensely by this development.

One theory I have is that the blood flow that would normally be assigned by my body to the act of digestion is now free'd up to be reallocated to the ole cranium. Plausible? Unsure, but am certainly enjoying these life experiments!

Side note: for those observing the fast I have also noticed that my immune system is closely linked with the gut and my self-imposed starvations can lead to immune system compromise. Make sure you supplement your Iftar goodies with some replenishing nutrients such as pro-biotic yogurt smoothies rich in vitamin C and home-cooked chicken consomme.

thronemonkey• 14 years ago

>almost mystical state of oneness with the task at hand awesome

krmmalik3• 14 years ago

yes and also your liver gets a break. i normally experience the same a few hours after what would normally be my lunch time. Feel very light physically and find it easy to attune attention and really be creative. i do wonder if the lack of music/tv throughout the month also has an impact

pronesmk• 14 years ago

I also tend to notice an increase in my productivity and ability to focus during Ramadan. A good breakfast is essential, I usually stick to yogurt, granola and vegetable juice - say my prayers then head back to sleep for a couple hours. I can't say I'm not hungry when 820 rolls around but I don't find the month debilitating and most of the time my co-workers don't realize I'm fasting until it's almost over.

dinkumthinkum3• 14 years ago

I think probably whether you think you're abnormally better or abnormally worse at coding while fasting, you're just getting some placebo effect of whatever you're inclined to believe. I'm not sure what evidence there is that a little fast has significant effect on someone's ability one way or the other.

tamersalama2• 14 years ago

Strangely, I usually put on more weight during Ramandan. I think it's a combination of work/food/sleep-pattern.

irahul8• 14 years ago

> Strangely, I usually put on more weight during Ramandan.

If you are starving, your metabolism slows down to conserve energy. I assume you eat heavy meals(high carb? sugar? oil?) when you break your fast(dinner? before morning prayers?). Slow metabolism, coupled with high calory intake when your body doesn't need it(if you go to bed after a heavy meal, what would your body use the calories for?) would be the reason for the weight gain.

recycleme• 14 years ago

Your body starts eating away at your muscles and storing as much fat as it can. That's why it's important to exercise.

kanamekun• 14 years ago

I fast regularly and if you already on a low carb diet, then the transition is much easier on your body. I don't notice a a diminishing of mental capacity, but I do notice that I need more sleep.

There are a lot of things you can do to prepare for a fast. For example, cut back on caffeine, sugar and even salt in the days or weeks ahead of your fast. Also, gorging on food the morning of a fast is not really healthy and is a sure recipe for "Ramadan code."

There was a fantastic article on fasting in Harper's Magazine this past March that covers the history of fasting, "Starving your way to vigor: The benefits of an empty stomach." Sadly, you have to be a subscriber to read it online:

http://harpers.org/archive/2012/03/0083829

Fasting doesn't have to devastate your mental faculties. I actually find that it helps me focus, and I have started doing it a few times a year.

jezclaremurugan2• 14 years ago

I am currently working in Saudi Arabia (here, fasting is a national rule, however I eat because I'm a Indian and non-Muslim) as a programmer, and I've noticed one funny thing - people just become nocturnal. They eat and work in the night and sleep during the day. This is simply the normal routine reversed. Fasting has minimal effects on them, its not fasting, just the time in which they eat is changed! They work shorter during the day and do the hard work in the night.

varikin• 14 years ago

I noticed the same when I was in Kuwait several years ago. I remember going to a mall on day during Ramonda. Most everything was closed as we were on the way and most of the shops were just opening around 6 with sunset being around 7. After 7, the place was alive with activity.

jezclaremurugan2• 14 years ago

same here, the malls open at 9:30 pm and close at 3:00 am, and they are crowded till at least 2:30 am.

ramblerman3• 14 years ago

Humans are funny creatures. To believe on the one hand a god laid down these rules, and then in the same thought think "Well I bet he didn't think of this loophole"

dalore• 14 years ago

Isn't there whole sections of Judaism that work out loopholes to God's laws?

lrs• 14 years ago

I remember having this same thought when I learned about the existence of "Islamic finance." Apparently, Islam has a strong doctrinal prohibition against charging interest, and there's an entire thriving sector of Islamic law and business dedicated to structuring transactions in ways that don't technically charge interest but still yield a return on principal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

This reminds me of a little kid beating up his classmates on the playground being told by the playground monitor to stop touching them, and then turning around going back to tormenting them by starting to punch them and stopping just short of making actual contact, and saying "neener neener, I'm not actually touching you." Except here, instead of a playground monitor, it's...an omnipotent creator deity.

salibhai• 14 years ago

Muslims around the world are going through the same materialistic tendencies as being seen all over the world. Instead of using Ramadan as a chance to cut back on worldly life and focus on spirituality, they are using it to focus on shopping, malls, entertainment, television, etc.. Fasting heightens the senses and brings an awareness to your mind about how we are only here for a short time. If you choose to sleep all day, I wouldn't call it a loophole, since you are not hurting anyone but yourself by sleeping all day during the fasting hours.

mseebach• 14 years ago

> If you choose to sleep all day, I wouldn't call it a loophole, since you are not hurting anyone but yourself by sleeping all day during the fasting hours.

Well, if you chose to eat, you also wouldn't be hurting anyone but yourself, so that can't be the relevant benchmark.

skMed• 14 years ago

Adding a quick note here about Ramadan - the act of fasting and feeling hungry, thirsty, and tired also serves to invoke feelings of empathy with those who are less fortunate. Essentially, it is a reminder that there are always those who are in need. This is why muslims are encouraged to donate to the needy during this month.

Simply sleeping through the fast and reversing a sleep schedule seems to go against the spirit of the exercise. Of course, everyone fasts for different reasons and it is a very personal undertaking. I just wanted to clarify for those who may be thinking "Why bother doing it at all if you can flip your sleep schedule?"

alinajaf2• 14 years ago

(Disclaimer: I'm a militant atheist now) I think I would find stopping five times a day for prayer to be a bit of a distraction, though I imagine the short bursts of meditation would be good for my concentration overall.

I tended to gain weight during Ramadan, but that's probably because my family made a big deal of every iftar, inviting extended family members, eating out and having big greasy Pakistani meals almost every night. I'm somewhat convinced that the type of food in my family would go towards explaining the early 60s life expectancy. Thankfully I married Japanese so I'm hoping that cancels it out!

I found fasting to be generally easy, even in quite long days in Saudi Arabia. Rather than hunger it was more the habit of snacking as a reaction to it that catches you out. The main tactic we had for dealing with it was (as much as possible) sleeping during the day and working at night, though I imagine you'd need a very understanding employer (or sufficient litigation) to pull that off as a full-time dev.

mulligan• 14 years ago

Realistically you are stopping one time during the work day. Possibly twice if it is winter, due to the shorter days. All the rest of the prayers are timed outside of normal work hours.

AjithAntony• 14 years ago

> I would find stopping five times a day for prayer to be a bit of a distraction

(Disclaimer: Not a muslim)

I think that is exactly what the prayers are for. They remind you that the only thing that matters in this life is submitting to God and to thank Him for His blessings.

tripzilch• 14 years ago

> I'm a militant atheist

Oh boy those militant agnostics aren't going to know what hit them!

nacker• 14 years ago

Fasting is good for your immune system as it stimulates phagocytosis. Here's a paper on Ramadan fasting:

http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/21-4/Latifynia.pdf

An amusing book on complete fasting by vintage american novelist Upton Sinclair here:

http://archive.org/details/fastingcure00sinciala

Personally, I fast regularly up to two weeks at a time, both for weight control and because I believe in it's overall long term health benefits.

Jd7• 14 years ago

Up to two weeks at a time of a total (water only) fast? I've done this before, but it was quite difficult to maintain in the midst of work pressures and I'm curious to know how you manage it.

CodeMage• 14 years ago

I'm very interested in this. I've never tried fasting before -- and I'm 33 years old, which means I've had a lot of time to get used to eating a lot -- so I imagine that I would have a feeling of "starvation" that would be awfully distracting. Plus, I'm a bear when I'm too hungry and I wonder what I could do to avoid taking it out on the people who surround me (especially my 5 year-old kid).

beagle321• 14 years ago

(not parent poster here, but here's my advice):

Drink lots of water. When you feel like you _must_ eat right now (rarely happens after day two), drink a liter of water, and go for a short 5 minute walk.

Also, add a few drops of freshly squeezed lemon juice to your water. The availability of flavor is often enough to get you through the hard 5 minutes (and after day two, it is rarely more than 5 minutes).

gwern2• 14 years ago

> Let’s just say fasting isn’t one of them. All of my co-workers; I have worked with past and present have been extremely understanding and respectful of the [month-long] fast. Also as a by-product of this kindness they have coined the term: "Ramadan code".

If I were an employer, after reading this...

irahul8• 14 years ago

> If I were an employer, after reading this...

There isn't much you can do; at least you can't make religious fasting the reason for your actions unless you are interested in lawsuits and tons of negative publicity.

What does it take to start a new religion? What if I start a new religion which says working more than 4 hours a day is against my gods? Can employers deny me jobs? Or if they don't deny it, are they bound to pay me full salary even though I work half the hours? If not, why am I being discriminated against when you are accommodating others(prayers 5 times a day, month long fasts, pregnancy etc).

papercrane• 14 years ago

> What if I start a new religion which says working more than 4 hours a day is against my gods?

Then they'll pay you for four hours work. I don't think any law will force your employer to make unreasonable accommodations for you.

alinajaf2• 14 years ago

> What does it take to start a new religion? What if I start a new religion which says working more than 4 hours a day is against my gods?

It would be somewhat easier to just start your own company if you wanted to work four hours a day. Though with a good marketing department, some cold reading and a truthy sounding manifesto I'm guessing you could probably pull it off if you wanted to.

> prayers 5 times a day, month long fasts,

IME, not many muslims outside muslim countries actually pray five times a day, and as demonstrated by this thread the ones that fast seem to do as much as possible to align their religious obligations with their employers interests.

> pregnancy

Why is this a problem? Would this extend to paternity too? It doesn't really count as discrimination in my book, as barring any social or biological obstacles in your path, applicable to you should you choose to have children.

If I were a full-time employee and by implication not independently wealthy, I would expect an employer to fund some time off to deal with babymaking. I think this is one of the primary benefits of being a full-time employee (especially since as I'm a consultant now, it costs five figures in potential fees to take two months off).

RyanMcGreal2• 14 years ago

If you want to start a new religion, be prepared to spend an awful lot of donation money on a crack legal team who can defend a) your religion from anything that looks like defamation and b) your adherents from anything that looks like discrimination.

jetti• 14 years ago

"What does it take to start a new religion?"

Well if you are in the US, the religion has to be recognized by the government. If it isn't recognized then you would have no protection.

jimrandomh• 14 years ago

If his employer decided they weren't okay with this, then yes, he might try to argue that it's discrimination. However, this argument would almost certainly fail, because he stated, in writing, that fasting severely impairs his job peformance.

dinkumthinkum3• 14 years ago

It's not that simple. There's a few standards such as the beliefs being "sincerely held" and that accommodation should not render an "unreasonable burden" on the employer. You can say these are subjective but welcome the legal system. No judge is going to let a non-Abrahamic sham religion impose strange conundrums for the employer.

People have played games with this before. Some prostitutes have tried to make their business a religion and that sex with them is a "rite" of the practice. Others have tried to make their mansions be referred to as religious buildings to avoid paying property taxes, hasn't worked.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

dsr_• 14 years ago

If I were an employer, after reading this, I would encourage my observant Muslim employees to change their schedules and work at night, and from home if possible. Not every job can accomodate this, but many can.

gwern2• 14 years ago

Yes, that would be the legal lesson to learn from this. :)

wr1472• 14 years ago

I'm fasting and coding now - I really don't see a drop in code quality. Nor have I noticed it in others who have been fasting at the time.

We all seem to look for externalities to explain bad performances. Maybe the code wasn't very good, or the design not conducive to writing good quality code?

pizza• 14 years ago

Fasting helps me stay focused. I wake up at 8:30 am and have my first meal at around 4pm-5pm, and I just don't get hungry, and the lack of blood sugar level spikes doesn't get in my way.

rsl7• 14 years ago

I think I have always been better when I'm slightly hungry. When I'm satiated, I don't do much of anything.

sharjeel• 14 years ago

On the other hand, I find myself a lot more focused and productive in Ramadan.

Knowing that I'm not supposed to eat or drink, I don't have to think every other hour what should I gulp down my stomach. This is a distraction which is a bit difficult to get rid of in normal days.

Also, meal timings become strict which automatically instills disciplines. In normal routine I would adjust the meals by few hours just to get some part of code done. Having such flexibility also allows some buffer to visit Social Media or Hacker News. However with empty stomach, one stays relatively bound to complete the work rather than procrastinating.

krmmalik3• 14 years ago

I agree. i become much more disciplined and frugal with my time in Ramadhan and often experience higher bursts of productivity.

mishmax• 14 years ago

EXACTLY my thoughts. The reduction of snacking distractions and washroom breaks has always been a productivity boon for me in Ramadan. Nothing to do but pray and code. I love it.

rokhayakebe• 14 years ago

HN is truly a community of many nations, cultures, religions, etc...

I changed my schedule for the past few days and it's working very well. I get home from work at 5 or so, sleep for 1.5 hours, get up and ready myself to break fast. Afterwards I am operational until 2AM. I eat several times during this period and I go to sleep, waking up again at 8-9. (Yes, you guessed it, I am still not able to make Fajr on time).

The above beats going to sleep at 11 or 12AM then waking up at 3:30 to eat before going back to sleep.

recoiledsnake• 14 years ago

>Also another little thing. This entire blog post was written using the dictation feature in Mountain Lion.

So that explains the mistakes in the post I was wondering about. For example:

>(not that I wouldn’t I love parks).

tamersalama2• 14 years ago

Fasting is a mental exercise rather than anything else.

sambeau• 14 years ago

As (a non-religious) someone who tried fasting while holding down a similar job, my advice is simple: don't break your fast every night.

It only takes 24-48 hours for your body to adjust, your fat to start melting and your blood-sugar levels to stabilise. You also stop feeling hungry. I found that while I was generally a little 'light-headed' my powers of concentration were fine and I returned to full productivity.

At first I tried drinking only fruit juice but that gave me an upset stomach so I switched to water and the occasional tea. Once I'd got through the first day of 'starving' hunger I felt great: full of energy and positivity.

As long as you have fat on your body you should be fine, however I'm not sure it would be a good idea if you are all muscle: while shutting down your digestive system saves a load of energy, if you have no fat your body it will convert muscle.

Pros:

  * No blood sugar swings
  * No hunger
  * Fat loss
  * A real sense of achievement

Cons:

  * Greasy skin
  * Zits

Do:

  * Keep exercising to prevent muscle loss
  * Drink lots of liquid
  * Eat something light if the starving hunger returns
  * Be careful if you are already very skinny
  * Talk to a doctor

Don't:

  * Binge eat every night as you'll feel starving again the next day
  * Ignore a return to hunger
  * Drink lots of fruit juice
  * Binge at the end. Gradually introduce food back to your system.

nsxwolf• 14 years ago

This was probably very common in the human experience prior to the development of agriculture. People didn't eat regular meals. Hunting opportunities would not have come along every day, and sometimes hunts would fail.

I don't think humans would become too weak to throw spears because they didn't have their Cheerios in the morning.

When I hear people who have skipped a meal complain "my blood sugar is low", I worry for their health. We have fat stores for a reason. Skipping a meal should not be a big deal.

Multiplayer• 14 years ago

"When I hear people who have skipped a meal complain "my blood sugar is low", I worry for their health. We have fat stores for a reason. Skipping a meal should not be a big deal."

That is such a great point. People have been programmed around the 3 meal regime. I have found it fun to experiment with fewer meals and generally it works fine if I have an primarily protein breakfast I sail through to an early dinner.

delluminatus• 14 years ago

I think a big part of the "low blood sugar" complaint is people misinterpreting their body. I used to get "low blood sugar" if I didn't eat for six hours or so, even getting headaches from it (I think 60% of the headaches I've gotten in my life have been from the placebo effect, and the rest stress-related).

People are just so unused to being hungry that they freak out when it happens.

dllthomas2• 14 years ago

Too weak to throw spears, maybe not. Too weak to churn out top quality code may be another matter, however.

chc• 14 years ago

Times have changed. Nowadays we try to minimize our fat stores because overeating is a bigger threat to us than starvation is. If you're eating balanced meals intended to keep you slim, missing one is a bigger deal than if you pig out on a deer you killed and then miss breakfast the next day.

manmal4• 14 years ago

You are mistaken if you think that hunting was the primary source of food in times before agriculture. For many tribes it was (and still is, in some parts of the world) a secondary "luxury" which augmented the gathered food. As you say, hunting can easily fail, or game can become rare because of environmental hiccups. This happens more often than you should think - there are times when deer can't be found for weeks. Blood sugar was mainly kept up with berries, roots, and fruit - nibbling all day long. Fat stores are not so easily accessed - if they were, then all-week-fasting would be the way to go for fat-loss (which mostly leads to muscle wasting and short-term water loss, and a mighty yo-yo effect). Yes, one can use intermittent fasting to lose weight, but weight-loss usually only kicks in after 2-3 weeks.

I agree that Cheerios are a bad idea generally, but I'm not pro fasting or skipping meals for weight loss. Fat is stored as an emergency reaction to high blood sugar levels, and you get exactly that when eating more between the fasts (you have to). You constantly expose your brain to too much and too low sugar levels, resulting in highs and lows in your ability to focus (and also your mood).

neutronicus• 14 years ago

My experience with this sort of thing is that despite thrice-weekly lifting sessions, I lose a LOT of muscle. Just a heads-up for anyone thinking of trying this.

beagle321• 14 years ago

> despite thrice-weekly lifting sessions, I lose a LOT of muscle

My experience is like the GPs (I only lose muscle if I don't exercise while fasting).

Do you have "nontrivial" muscles? My experience is that I don't lose muscles I use (If I don't jog, I _do_ lose leg muscles; if I'm not boxing or swimming, I _do_ lose arm muscles; but if I do both, and balanced exercises like crunches, squats, etc - I don't seem to lose anything).

vrodic• 14 years ago

You are probably not giving your body enough time to recover the muscles damaged in your workouts.

For more details i can recommend "Body by Science" by John Little and Doug McGuff.

Or google "muscle recovery time" and read through

barking• 14 years ago

Another con is 'seriously bad breath' (acetone breath) which is clearly not good if your job involves dealing with people face to face

beagle321• 14 years ago

> Another con is 'seriously bad breath'

Goes away after a few days. And probably good for you - it means your body is finally getting rid of some stuff it should have gotten rid of before and didn't.

scotty79• 14 years ago

I don't get hunger when I don't eat. After almost a day without eating I get headache then I feel weaker and weaker and don't even have enough energy to make myself something to eat. Then I fall asleep. Only after I wake up next day I have enough energy to make myself a meal. I'm still not hungry but reason just has the opportunity to kick in.

manmal4• 14 years ago

I'm currently on Ferriss' low-carb diet and I have found constant carb-withdrawal hard to bear on days on which I do much programming (basically every working day). There are some tricks though which help me keep up focus:

- MSM,

- Caffeine (less is more - just a sip of coffee, or half a cup of green tea; too much of it actually downs me after the first high),

- and regular consumption of "allowed" carbs (lentils being my favourite) and fat (peanut butter, olive oil,...). Native coconut oil is a real brain booster, I feel super-focused after having eaten a spoonful.

MSM does really do much in this regard for me, it feels as if it's helping my body renew its energy stores. I can go a lot further with less food when having taken it - and I do need to take it in order to seriously lose weight.

Eating nothing for more than 4 hours shoots my focus down for hours, and is hard to rebuild with low-carb food.

shurane• 14 years ago

The carb withdrawal is only for like, the first week, right? Then you'll be scot-free! Or so I thought.

count• 14 years ago

In low-carb diets, one of the major withdrawal symptoms is actually from a lack of sodium. Your body starts emptying it's water stores when there is no carbohydrate intake to process (carbs need a lot of water to work with), and that takes tons of potassium and sodium out of your body.

Eat or drink something with lots of sodium, and it should hep with the carb withdrawal symptoms quite a bit (the 'keto flu').

cmaxwell• 14 years ago

That sounds like a lot of fun. I am glad I am not religious.

I have no problem with people having the right to do this type of stuff because I enjoy my right to laugh about it.

krmmalik3• 14 years ago

Have to say i've not suffered too much. I think it's a combination of what i choose to eat at fasting (suhoor) time, abiphasic sleep pattern and limiting sugar intake when breaking the fast.

I do a light sleep / nap for 2hrs at night, and then eat suhoor and make sure i stay awake for a fixed period of time before going back to bed. i wrote a dedicated post about this last year if anyone is interested.

vimalg22• 14 years ago

I've been trying one of the more popular Intermittent fasting protocols -Leangains for 20 days and counting. It was uncomfortable only for the first 3 days.

16-20hr (well-hydrated) fasts ended with a heavy lifting workout and BIG meal at 'breakfast' (6pm or later for me). FAQ: http://examine.com/leangains-faq/

I love it.

Increased alertness, focus, no more mid-day food comas. I'm a fat guy, so my body is probably fat-adapted after a couple weeks of IF.

And i work at my ghetto standing desk from 9 to 5 weekdays.

I can't imagine living any other way now. It's wonderful not to be a slave to food. I see food as just fuel now.

Note: I do take 10g of BCAAs before lifting heavy fasted. There is evidence that they prevent catabolism of muscle.

boothead• 14 years ago

Any figures on how your body composition has changed over that time?

vimalg22• 14 years ago

I don't have the resources to properly estimate and track BF%.

However, i've been tracking my waistline measurement every other day after doing my morning business and fasted. I seem to have lost 2cm since starting 3 weeks ago.

I'm inclined to not take this 'loss' that seriously because the consensus is that IF takes about 3-4 weeks to really start showing results.

On the other hand, i know i'm metabolizing fat; family members have been complaining of my new acetone breath. (ketosis!)

ramadan-fast• 14 years ago

I know this is the complete opposite for most people, but my experience fasting is very different. for some reason (maybe someone can help explain why?), I find that while fasting I actually become significantly more productive and enter a state of extreme mental lucidity. the best way I’d describe it as is being on a high-dose of adderall (if you aren’t a regular user), but with a clearer head.

this usually kicks-in after the second day of fasting and stays pretty consistent throughout the month. I really feel it peak at about midway through my conscious fast each day (about 7hrs after waking-up) and it lasts up and through the time I eat.

I should just note that, in case someone’s thinking this, I’m pretty sure it’s not attributed to some sort of increased spirituality or something like that (I’m not particularly religious; more-so fast as a personal challenge and use the opportunity as a sort of annual ‘reset’ to physical habits)

as for how my fast goes, I think it may be considered somewhat extreme compared to others I know: beyond a fairly large iftar (dinner) at around 8:30pm I don’t really eat much else; I still keep vegan when I do eat; never wake-up pre-dawn to eat (though I sort of subconsciously wake-up throughout the night and drink water); and I don’t change any of my habits outside my time fasting (i.e. still go to gym after dinner most days, still go out at night, still drink (alcohol), still wake-up early for work, etc...)

jperras3• 14 years ago

There is quite a lot of science and study behind fasting, and it can actually be good for your health. I say this as someone who does a caloric fast (read: no caloric intake at all, fluids allowed) 6-7 times a week for intervals of 16-20 hours, in addition to my 3x weekly heavy weightlifting programme and my full-time job as a programmer/devops.

As of right now I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my life (physical strength and cardiovascular health), and my mind is as sharp as ever, especially when I'm fasting.

primodemus• 14 years ago

Could you detail your diet and exercise routine? I'm new to intermittent fasting and could use a little bit of advise.

jperras3• 14 years ago

Sure. It's incredibly simple, even if there are a lot of concepts to grasp.

Diet:

The macro-nutrient decomposition I tend to follow can be calculated for your bodyweight, height and level of physical activity here: http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/ . Note that your level of physical activity is most likely sedentary, even if you plan on exercising. The higher levels are for people who have physically demanding day jobs. The rest/workout split toggle in the top left of the "Macro Calculator" tab will give you different total caloric requirements based on if you want to gain/lose/maintain weight. Remember: a ~500kcal/day deficit from your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) translates to losing 1 lb/week, and vice versa for a caloric surplus. You can play around with the 4th tab to see what goes on.

The tl;dr version of this calculator is basically: eat more carbohydrates on workout days, and eat more fats on rest days. Eat 1g of protein per lb of body-mass on all days, and try to hit your daily caloric goals on all days.

Meal Timing:

Here's a typical day for me:

    * 6:30am. Wake up. Do morning things.
    * 7:15am. Take 10g of BCAAs with water, 4000IU of Vitamin D, and 10ml of concentrated (high levels of EPA/DHA) fish oil.
    * 7:30am. Take public transport to gym.
    * 8:00am. Double-shot of espresso. Sometimes I skip this - I purposely cycle on/off of caffeine every few weeks.
    * 8:15am. Start exercise routine. Lift heavy things. Lasts about an hour.
    * 9:15am. Finish workout. Ingest 10g of BCAAs.
    * 9:30am to 2:00pm. Work.
    * 2:00pm. First meal of the day. No significant calories (< 50kcal) before this.
    * 6:00pm. Second meal of the day.
    * 9:00pm. End of caloric intake window.
    * 11:00pm. Bed time.

For rest days, I skip the BCAAs and the gym (obviously).

Of course the above isn't written in stone, and sometimes I break my own rules by going out with friends, having a drink or two past 9pm, and so on. But you get the general idea.

Exercise:

Lift heavy things, and perform compound movements. My exercise regime consists of heavy squats, bench press, standing overhead press, Pendlay rows and deadlifts. Any other exercises are incidental, and I try to avoid muscle-isolating exercises in general.

I would highly recommend reading Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe (even though some disagree on his precise methodologies, it's still the best introductory book out there), and perusing the http://stronglifts.com site as well. Once you've gotten past the point where those programmes are effective (which will take months, if not a year), there are many intermediate to advanced compound-lift based programmes that you can switch over to.

Sorry for the long post. I could go on for ages about this stuff; it's incredibly interesting, and is actually quite formulaic. If you eat what you're supposed to eat and do the exercises you're supposed to do, your desired results just... happen. Makes the scientist in me very happy ;-).

[Edit: formatting]

beagle321• 14 years ago

biohacker Dave Asprey publishes had developed "The Bulletproof diet" around these principals (and a lot of others). He's selling stuff, but also gives a ton of advice for free. Google it if you are interested.

everlost• 14 years ago

In my case, it's ironic that I feel lethargic right after breaking fast (probably due to digestive system kicking in), while the rest of the day is a breezy peacefulness.

bevan• 14 years ago

For those of you who feel clear-headed after fasting for a day or two: you might have a delayed food allergy (google "IgG food intolerance"). The most common such allergies are to gluten (not just coeliac sufferers are sensitive to gluten) and dairy products. I believe these delayed-onset allergies are fairly common in western societies, and are due to a "leaky gut", or permeable intestinal lining, that results in an immune system response when those foods get absorbed. Because IgG allergies can manifest themselves up to three days after you eat the offending food, some people may never figure out the cause of their fatigue or foggy-headedness. IgG allergies might be worth looking into if you have those symptoms.

HSO• 14 years ago

IANAN (I am not a nutritionist) but I strongly suspect that the physical and mental exhaustion is primarily related to dehydration (as Mahdi Yusuf himself indicates by bolding "drink"). Looking at some of the comments here, the main difference between those who describe positive experiences with fasting and what the author describes is that the former drink water throughout the day. In that light, let me quote from a very good article [1]:

A normal average human body is made of approximately 60% of water. Water is the natural transport fluid involved in all important communication networks of the body. Drinking a lot of water (medium to low mineralization) ensures that the organs responsible for filtering and cleansing have sufficient carrying capacity and can eliminate toxins and wastes. You can see the argument as just plain good sense that we need sufficient water for dilution of wastes. Chemists and physicists know water as a truly exceptional fluid on many accounts. It is not by chance that life emerged and organized itself with water. Water is the best solvent that can dissolve an astonishing number of solid substances. Dehydration is a dominant cause of tiredness, pain and chronic diseases. Drinking about two liters per day plays marvel to keep energy and remove fatigue. Indeed, unknown to or often forgotten by the public is the fact that many chronic diseases may be associated with an insufficient intake of water. Such a simple gesture as drinking water regularly during the day may go a long way towards avoiding fatigue and remaining healthy.

I emphasize drinking pure water and not sodas, cokes, processed juices, coffees and so on. Just plain water. The drinks that are processed by agro-business are in general provided with added sweeteners that are known to promote malignant cell growth [Servan-Schreiber, 2009]. In addition, drinking with sugar (glucose, saccharine) prevents the body from strengthening its metabolic pathway of storing fat in time of surplus and burning fat efficiently in case of need. By feeding our body continuously with sweet drinks and sugar, we saturate our blood with sugar and we weaken considerably the metabolic processes of storing and retrieving sugar, making us more vulnerable to hypoglycemia in the rare cases where external sugar intakes stop. The consequence is to easily feel weak and tired. In contrast, letting the body be just flushed by plain water for hours ensures the build up of its metabolic capacities to burn fat efficiently. This is like muscle build-up by training. Art de Vany [2010] develops convincing supportive arguments for this. He correctly argues that our body is basically inherited from our hunter-gatherer evolution and we are thus adapted to strive in a patchy and varying environment for which our metabolism has derived efficient solutions to the energy flow problem. This backfires with our modern caloric and sugar rich, but nutritionally depleted, foods that are available at little expenditure of energy [de Vany, 2010], in the form of chronic diseases, an on-going so-called epidemic of obesity and many other modern so-called developed country diseases [Campbell and Campbell, 2006].

For the determination of the amount of needed water, a rule of thumb is to keep urine transparent. Do you feel a bit tired? Drink water. The effect is almost instantaneous. I constantly keep one or two liters on my office desk and drink when I feel like it and outside meals. I always carry water with me on trips. A minor nuisance is to drink it all before going through airport security._

_Of upmost importance is to drink our water outside meals. Most people use breakfast, lunch and dinner times to fill their body with both the liquid and solid nutrients that their bodies require. This is logical since meals are the times when we re-fuel our body. However, this behavior constitutes a fundamental mistake. Ponder this question: what other mammals in the whole animal kingdom drink their water together with their solid meals? None! We are the only one among about 5500 known mammal species who do it. The convenience of tools and the development of technology have put bottles on our meal tables to consume at the same time we ingest solid food. This apparent gain of civilization collides against a healthy diet for at least three reasons:

(i) Drinking lubricates and help swallow insufficiently chewed morsels; but digestion in the stomach requires the comminution of our food into particles that should be as minute as possible in order to maximize surface over volume ratio and therefore facilitate the digestive chemistry performed by the gastric secretions. This is just plain and simple good sense chemistry. When digesting unbroken food morsels, the stomach and the whole digestive system has to secrete more, takes more time to process our food, all this cumulatively increasing tiredness and fatigue on the body over the long run. I therefore recommend chewing so that you “drink your food”. Similarly, water and liquids should stay a while in the mouth before swallowing to warm up and mix with saliva so that you “eat your drinks”. A difficult digestion starting in the mouth is probably significant contributor to the feeling of tiredness after a meal.

(ii) Starch and other vegetable substances start their digestion with the help of enzymes found in the saliva; lengthy chewing ensures optimal chemical reactions with these enzymes and saves energy for the rest of the process in the stomach and intestines.

(iii) Ingested fluids dilute the stomach secretions, thus hindering the digestion process. Again, plain and simple good sense chemistry.

The article was originally written by a true scientist for his Ph.D. students. I think the physical dangers of our work is quite similar in that programmers and phd candidates or scientists will tend to get absorbed in front of a screen, sit for too long at a stretch, forget about or get negligent about food and drink, etc etc. I recommend this article.

________________________

[1] D. Sornette. Optimization of brain and life performance: Striving for playing at the top for the long run. Schweizer Monat, pages 38–49, Dec 2011.

(I believe the article is available on Arxiv.)

beagle321• 14 years ago

Everything that Didier Sornette writes is worth reading, if you can understand it. His explanations are very clear, yet quite terse.

If you are into mathematical finance, geophysics, modeling of economics and/or social phenomena, complex systems (especially with respect to catastrophies), go read Sornette now.

The reference from the parent is his only "philosophical" publication as far as I know. Does anyone know of any others?

peter_l_downs• 14 years ago

I recently grabbed a metal water bottle from a startup event. For the past week or so I've been drinking a full water bottle every hour or so. Totally anecdotal, but I've felt more productive and less exhausted, even as I've largely cut down my caffeine intake.

no_more_death• 14 years ago

Yes, fasting really isn't bad if you drink plenty of water. I fast and pray semi-regularly (I'm a Christian). It is rough at first but you get into the groove about half-way through the day. Fasting never hurt by ability to code. Fasting sharpens sensitivity; my body kicks into "prayer" mode and I can focus better. On the other hand, it is really hard to fast and stay up late! I usually end up going to bed early.

etruong42• 14 years ago

As a former wrestler, I have had very similar experiences. On days where I could drink water, I assessed no difference in my productivity between days that I fasted and days that I ate, except when my fasting lasted over three days. Even then, my decline in productivity in relation to the duration with my fasting was not very steep.

However, I found that my productivity is very strongly correlated with my hydration, and going an entire day without water showed immediate, significant, and negative effects. I strove to manage my time in such a way to get all my work done without needing to spend those days programming.

ahmedaly• 14 years ago

Here is my experience: I am in Egypt, and I decided to stop working at all in Ramdan's day.. I work only during night, because its very very hot here, which you start feel you need to drink by 11 am, and our stupid government keeps cut electricity during the day, so we can't even use air conditioning most of the time, because there is no electricity, and if you don't know, using air conditioning helps so much reduce the need of water.. which is the main problem in a very hot weather like in Egypt.

I spend all the day sleeping, and start working after Iftar.

dfischer• 14 years ago

I fast everyday. By not worrying about food while I do web-development I've noticed not only am I less distracted and get more done, but I am also less tired because my body isn't diverting energy to digesting food. I'd get really sleepy after lunch usually.

I practice Intermittent Fasting. I typically fast for 16 hours and eat for 8. I've been doing it for about a year now and I love it.

fabiandesimone• 14 years ago

I started working out recently (about 8 weeks ago) and I'm now following this protocol: http://leangains.com

My energy is up, I'm loosing weight (I work out very morning) and feeling great. I do find that I'm having a bit of trouble concentrating, but is getting better everyday.

If I manage to concentrate as I did before using leangains, this is by far the best I've felt in years.

jibjaba• 14 years ago

How about life without nonsensical ancient superstitions? I am very much not being purposefully offensive when I say that. The initial premis of needing to fast is highly flawed when looked at rationally.

reat2012• 14 years ago

Hi, HN readers!

As a Christian I would like to tell you my opinion on this subject. Very often people tend to forget that fasting differs from dieting. Hence, there are all these advices on various "tricks" and "optimizations" :-)

What is missed here is that when you are fasting - you are not trying to reduce your body weight or improve your mental abilities :-) In fact, the fasting has nothing to do with you - this is done by you only to praise The Lord, who has created you, is looking after you and forgives your sins.

And if one finds fasting too hard and starts making a shortcuts, it is better not to fast at all - there will be no value in this "eating trickery" for you :-) (or anyone else).

The fasting is all about God and He gives you the strength to fast - but you need to ask Him by praying, reading The Bible, caring about your brothers and sisters, helping other people, giving to poor. And if you find fasting too hard - most probably you are trying to fast for wrong reason or your dieting has nothing to do with The Lord.

Personally, when fasting four times a year, I try doing good Christian things - helping people around me, charities, those in needs. Trying to put my own interests even further away, making peace with enemies, asking for forgiveness of people that I hurt somehow. Working on my project "Read and Think: The Bible for command line people" :-)

This is what fasting is for me and these are my "special tricks" :-)

The best source to read about fasting is The Bible:

................ == THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT MATTHEW == ................... === Chapter 6, Verse 16 === 16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Thank you,

sodafountan• 14 years ago

I personally can't relate to this specific religious practice however this is very similar to the feelings experienced when trying to quite smoking. The second time I tried quitting smoking I was unable to concentrate on my code which unfortunately drove me back to cigarettes for another three years. If you're a software developer it's even harder to quit (words of advice for anyone reading this that might be heading into college this coming fall)

gtirloni• 14 years ago

I've fasted multiple times and it was straight days with only water. Never had any problems, in fact, I've always felt much better than before. I feel serene and can do my tasks just fine (or even better than before).

The author must be suffering from dehydration, not fasting.

Fasting & Programming

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