Larry Ellison: vast AI surveillance can ensure citizens are on best behavior (2024)

https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-ellison-ai-surveillance-keep-citizens-on-their-best-behavior-2024-9

by archagon • 1 year ago

167 136 1 year ago

archagon3• 1 year ago

"We're going to have supervision," Ellison said. "Every police officer is going to be supervised at all times, and if there's a problem, AI will report that problem and report it to the appropriate person."

I gotta say, I know that billionaires live in their own private world - in many sense of the word - but this is just wildly naive.

rad_gruchalski• 1 year ago

I don’t think so. The billionaires found a way to control the population. All they had to do was to become the government and have sufficient tech.

If Stazi and KGB had the tech we have today, we’d be still having DDR,Warsaw Pact, and Iron Curtain.

Ellison speaks the future. Quoting Mike Tyson „and whatcha gonna do 'bout it”. Ellison even has a database and a programming language he’d like to sell you to make that happen.

DomesticMouse• 1 year ago

The funny part about this is that even with all this technology the USSR would still have fallen, because Russia is a poor country geographically.

Conformance enforcement only gets you more of the same behaviour. It denies access to variation that engenders innovation.

Exploration vs exploitation.

FridgeSeal• 1 year ago

I wish they would go and live in their own private world and leave the rest of us alone, instead of trying to inflict something that the Stasi-would-be-proud-of on the rest of us.

archagon3• 1 year ago

Lords are nothing without their serfs.

FrankWilhoit• 1 year ago

You first, Larry. Else you have no credibility and no standing.

WheelsAtLarge• 1 year ago

If I didn't know better I would think this is an Onion article. Unfortunately, he's not the only powerful man who feels this way.

EA-3167• 1 year ago

The obsession with control has been a preoccupation of the elite for a VERY long time. The idea that we're just a few cameras away from the perfect panopticon i a surprisingly dangerous and common delusion, especially given the ample evidence that it doesn't work. Look at the UK, where handguns are rare, knives are illegal to supply to under-18's, there are cameras EVERYWHERE... and they still have frequent stabbings.

With kitchen knives. And yeah they catch it on camera, but they didn't prevent it.

walterbell• 1 year ago

Optional membership in Club-Invisible-to-Surveillance, based on social credit, faction, status or other "predictive" criteria.

daft_pink• 1 year ago

When is the next season of Black Mirror? We desperately need it.

panzi• 1 year ago

We are already in it.

yakaccount4• 1 year ago

Does Larry really lack enough self awareness to not realize these kind of statements make him sound like an orwellian super villain, or perhaps he does and simply does not care?

The latter is surely more frightening.

archagon3• 1 year ago

The oligarchs have now realized that nothing is going to stop them, so the masks are coming off.

How long until corporations start organizing their own private militias, I wonder?

jaggederest• 1 year ago

Negative sixty eight years[1]. Oh, you didn't mean the private military contractors, of which there were about 250k involved in the iraq and afghanistan war, slightly more in total than deployed troops at any given time.

Many ultra-high-net-worth individuals hire them. It's no secret, they've been doing it since the 60s when kidnap and ransom insurance started being a serious thing, and it's only intensified over time. There was an interesting "bolt hole" real estate listing that claimed years supply of food, water, housing etc. for a "company sized group of security contractors" as an amenity.

[1] G4S, the largest PMC company, founded in 1957

scyzoryk_xyz4• 1 year ago

Perhaps they already do, we just don’t know about it yet =)

ChrisMarshallNY3• 1 year ago

Check out the history of the Pinkerton Security agency.

Frost1x• 1 year ago

The trend has been more openness in this sort of behavior. After all, the public hasn’t seemed to respond to it with much negativity other than people occasionally complaining about these sorts of behaviors online. The highest level complaint seems to be public protest, which don’t seem to garner enough momentum to push change.

If there’s no repercussions, why not be transparent? Scary indeed, as it’s quite telling of the direction we’re headed in, IMHO.

pinkmuffinere4• 1 year ago

Honestly I think I prefer openness, although I'll admit it's hard to be precise about what's ok and what isn't. In the spirit of free speech, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." At the same time, defending somebody's right to speech does _not_ mean that individuals can't embargo / "cancel" that person -- I think this behavior is itself speech of a sort.

What would you change about the present situation? I feel that public protest is roughly all that can be allowed in response to speech (ie, speech in response to speech). Surely he shouldn't be jailed/fined/doxxed for this speech? What more should be allowed? Or is it just that the public protest isn't as strong as you'd want?

beloch• 1 year ago

If you're a billionaire today, you might be forgiven for thinking the current state of extreme wealth inequality is completely normal. You will obviously want to lock in a system that has benefited you and ensure that nothing ever changes.

Historically speaking though, wealth inequality in developed nations is reaching a point at which, as often as not, revolutions happen. Sometimes they're bloody. Sometimes not. There are two approaches to avoid a revolution:

1. Back off from controlling government and let reform happen gradually. Your wealth will be lessened, but you'll probably remain one of the richest people alive.

2. Lock everything in with a totalitarian panopticon state that you control. AI surveillance offers a huge advantage over surveillance networks used by past totalitarian regimes. e.g. East Germany's Stasi showed the limitations of surveillance in an age where humans had to do it themselves. With AI to do it, you can avoid employing a large portion of the population to watch the rest, and you can keep the power of that surveillance network concentrated in just a few hands, preferably yours.

It's clear which approach is being attempted in the U.S.. I'd just point out that #2 is inherently high-risk. If you lock in wealth inequality at today's levels (or make them worse) and then use repressive means to prevent any form of push-back, the state becomes brittle. If it breaks, the result could be a bloodbath. Approach #1 is much safer. Yet, here we are.

ThrowawayR2• 1 year ago

"...trend has been toward more openness...

No offense but you're just injecting a trendy opinion without knowing anything about the man's history. Ellison was notorious even in the '90s-'00s and never made any real effort to hide it. The book "The Difference Between God and Larry Ellison: God Doesn't Think He's Larry Ellison" (yes, that's its actual title) came out all the way back in 2003, the title being a quip that had already been circulating for many years by that time.

ozim4• 1 year ago

Don’t make a mistake of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison.

blipvert• 1 year ago

He hates that.

scyzoryk_xyz4• 1 year ago

For one, he’s one of the OG’s who’s had vast wealth and power for longer than many others have been alive.

And two, he’s at an age where people lose any sense of self-awareness, shame, filters - all that shit.

Anyways I don’t think he cares that it makes him sound Orwellian. I suspect he’s fine with being Orwellian outright. Not having what he has is as unimaginable as for all of us having a fraction of what he has. It’s too much of a stretch for someone like that to extent so much to imagine.

And yeah it’s frightening, it’s why we did away with autocratic Sun King calibre aristocracy/royalty and all that. We can expect all the other zillionaires to follow this path reliably over the next few decades.

yapyap2• 1 year ago

I doubt it’s the age of him, it moreso feels like the age of society.

With Musk swinging his arm to in the air to hail his führer it really feels like the defining moment of new age rich people, don’t get me wrong the build up was there but this is just the moment that best encapsulates it all.

The best person to personify the old age I’d say is Bill Gates, awful person behind the curtains I’m sure, real buddy buddy with Epstein but he did the whole “caring for humanity” shtick, he donated bits of his money, y’know he at least took some effort to make it seem like he cared.

tw04• 1 year ago

Larry doesn't care about anything other than Larry. For Larry, the biggest issue facing him beyond how he can live forever, is how he can ensure nobody ever commits a crime against him. The best way to ensure nobody ever commits a crime against him is to monitor every living human on the planet.

Any crime he commits can be figured out in courts with his high-priced lawyers so the idea that AI constantly watching you would be repressive seems misplaced to Larry.

For people that think I'm joking, at one point his primary philanthropic contributions were almost exclusively to life-extending efforts:

Take the massive amount of money he once gave to life-extension research, which was the core focus of his philanthropic efforts.
And so over the course of 15 years at the beginning of the 21st century he would donate over half of a billion dollars for anti-aging medical research, at a time when the field was seen as fringe science.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/8/24/21369773/larry-ellison-...

colordrops• 1 year ago

The point isn't about preventing people from commiting crimes against him. It is surely that oracle database would back the data centers run by the surveillance state.

NewJazz4• 1 year ago

Hmm, but has Larry considered that a scurry of squirrels may commit organized crime against his empire? Maybe he should invest in some deterrence there.

timewizard5• 1 year ago

Once CIA, always CIA. Larry is just explaining from first hand knowledge what the deep state wants.

JumpCrisscross10• 1 year ago

Does Larry really lack enough self awareness to not realize these kind of statements make him sound like an orwellian super villain

He's joining the attention economy. Saying something stupid but provocative yields earned social media. Larry Ellison saying something sensible wouldn't make HN's front page.

bryanrasmussen3• 1 year ago

But it's so rare! Surely we would be driven to comment on it.

wesselbindt• 1 year ago

He is not stupid, and operates within the same broad cultural framework as we do. It's the latter.

horrible-hilde2• 1 year ago

Its the latter, Larry is not your friend

trillic• 1 year ago

Larry is an 80 year old man worth 200 billion US dollars I don’t think he gives a shit what he sounds like.

kdmtctl• 1 year ago

The biggest problem is every creator of ceasing privileges from others genuinely believes that he is excluded.

  First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
  Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
  Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
  Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
  —Martin Niemöller

Delk• 1 year ago

Ars Technica article with a link to video records of the Oracle financial meeting: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/09/omnip...

baal80spam• 1 year ago

How could he even say this with a straight face?

prawn• 1 year ago

Because he foresees it, believes it and will profit from it?

rainworld• 1 year ago

CIA-Larry has been representing and pushing these ideas for a long time:

https://chroniclesmagazine.org/view/larry-ellisons-golden-ag...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Core

slackfan• 1 year ago

At least he's open about his intentions.

timoth3y• 1 year ago

"We're going to have supervision," Ellison said.

I literally read that as "supervillain" when I first read it.

beng-nl• 1 year ago

The lawnmower wants to use vast AI surveillance on the blades of grass.

Do not anthropomorphize the lawnmower.

jiggawatts• 1 year ago

This is a reference to the infamous rant by Bryan M. Cantrill after Sun was acquired by Oracle: https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=1982

qzw• 1 year ago

The modern super billionaire is so rich that only complete societal collapse or being personally targeted by a state-level entity can threaten their basically never-ending wealth and power. That's why they all have built bunkers on various islands in the world and have kissed the rings of whichever political leaders that look the most likely to threaten their position and/or life. If some of these leaders are also going to give them more money for their services, then that's just another good transaction for them. Anyone can sell their soul for a price. It takes a billionaire to sell it over and over for an ever increasing return.

JumpCrisscross10• 1 year ago

modern super billionaire is so rich that only complete societal collapse or being personally targeted by a state-level entity can threaten their basically never-ending wealth and power

Plenty of billionaires have gone to jail or gone bankrupt.

Anyone can sell their soul for a price

But not for any price. Anyone who thinks they could build an Apple or Microsoft or even Oracle is probably not being honest about their own limitations.

threeseed• 1 year ago

Fine. But let’s also make sure that there is no indemnity for AI companies.

And that we pass laws to make it that systemic mis-identification should be classed as criminal negligence. Just to ensure everyone is on their best behaviour and not overstating the reliability of AI.

pseudalopex2• 1 year ago

Not fine.

nemo44x3• 1 year ago

Obviously technology will continue to affect society as it has today and always had. I don’t know why people here are freaking out. It’s how it always has and will be. But you’re missing the key phrase - “best behavior”. This is the political part that gets fought over.

rhinoceraptor• 1 year ago

Every important social reform in history has violated unjust laws. Do you want to live in a society where social reform is not possible?

nemo44x3• 1 year ago

Important to who? What specifically has been good about them and what was unjust about which specific laws? Sounds like victor writing history.

I want to live in a society where bad behavior isn’t incentivized.

ChrisArchitect• 1 year ago

(2024)

Discussion then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41562750

yibg• 1 year ago

So he wants the US to become more like China. Got it.

mr902102• 1 year ago

Well, it’s slowly happening.

jimmydoe• 1 year ago

and I'm sure this trend will be effectively accelerated.

Juliate• 1 year ago

That is not what “citizens” means or are supposed to be.

He does not understand or want citizenship, he wants peons.

prng2021• 1 year ago

Hilarious. This is from his wikipedia page:

“in 2019 a $1 billion lawsuit was filed against several Israel supporters, including Ellison. The lawsuit accused Ellison and others of conspiring to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Israeli-occupied territories, committing war crimes, and funding genocide.”

mr902102• 1 year ago

Unfortunately I am very pessimistic about the future of AI surveillance, its promises are way too compelling for the layperson understand its second order effect over time.

Europe is slowly but surely pushing for it as well.

unethical_ban• 1 year ago

We're going to shift from merely recording everyone's movements in public, to identifying and analyzing each individual in real time and doing behavioral analysis. Laws need to stop that from happening. Maybe some states will be better than others.

joshdavham• 1 year ago

This might sound overly paranoid to some, but I think that most developed nations are actually at risk of becoming surveillance states in the future.

The technology is already here, and there would also be clear upsides, especially for private citizens trying to protect themselves, but the end result is that we end up in a surveillance state. Arguably, we may already be in one.

timewizard5• 1 year ago

You have been since the 1960s. The NSA and CIA entitled itself to intercept and read mail of United States citizens sent or received from foreign countries. The NSA built room 641A and captured traffic in the bulk with very wide filters. There is a data center in Utah which stores all of our cellular telephone call and message "metadata."

JumpCrisscross10• 1 year ago

You have been since the 1960s. The NSA and CIA entitled itself to intercept and read mail of United States citizens sent or received from foreign countries.

Every country has has this ability for much longer.

rqtwteye• 1 year ago

There is no "risk". It will happen for sure.

ignoramous• 1 year ago

a surveillance state. Arguably, we may already be in one.

If the lawmakers openly demonize and marginalise the unprivileged (minorities, dissenters, protestors), then it is safe to assume that it is already the case, just unevenly applied, so that the majority would continue to support the State as it increasingly grows restless with the fringe even more.

wakawaka28• 1 year ago

It's got very little to do with any particular "marginalized group" -- We will all be marginalized under such a system. The people behind it will use anyone to advance the dystopian agenda, including "unprivileged" people. The majority of people are not on board with the agenda, but it hardly matters what they want because they aren't actually in control and most of them don't see the big picture.

nmz• 1 year ago

As intended.

https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-p...

Ekaros• 1 year ago

Looking at repeated pushes for breaking or banning encryption it is pretty clear that privacy of citizenry is no priority for anyone in power. Slow degradation is inevitable.

abraxas• 1 year ago

But developing nations are already there. China has a social credit system and the Russians have had convenient ways of denouncing each other for their citizens for decades.

pizza• 1 year ago

It might be worth reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Misconcep...

horrible-hilde2• 1 year ago

Well, if their dream is to turn twitter to whatsapp then we also will lose some control of our money.

klipklop• 1 year ago

This is not paranoid, this is the logical conclusion to the control grid they are actively building. We are most of the way there with near zero resistance.

dyauspitr• 1 year ago

Throw in some LLM capable of interpreting surveillance camera data and it’s going to be hell on earth.

ashoeafoot2• 1 year ago

china has it and is still destabilizing. Such systemd can work if its a panopticon of all on all, but they do not work if centralized and in service to a few.

cpill• 1 year ago

this is fine for countries that have governments that look after it's citizens, like Europe where it is already relatively safe. for the US, where the wealth disparity is rapidly increasing and only an uprising is going to change anything, I'd say it's an oppressive till of the rich to micro-police the less fortunate.

mrtksn• 1 year ago

if you actually look at the numbers, The billionaires are by far the most criminal types. Almost all of them are either convicts or have paid hush money for sexual assault or similar. No other demographics comes even close. Maybe presidents with about %12 being convicts.

Full surveillance should be installed to every single billionaire. AI can really help us to reduce criminality and keep billionaires in best behavior.

notatoad• 1 year ago

well, it certainly sounds like we'll all be better off with him in charge of tiktok.

yapyap2• 1 year ago

Before clicking I was like “is this dude stupid?”

but I clicked on the article I see that Larry Ellison is a billionaire, of course he wants AI surveillance for his workers. I doubt he’ll let this AI he is thinking of surveill him though.

Awful idea, don’t think again.

quesera• 1 year ago

I see that Larry Ellison is a billionaire

It's more instructive to think of Larry Ellison as the lawnmower in the billionaire salad.

sys_64738• 1 year ago

This applies to the great unwashed only, and not the rich, posh toffs like Larry.

generic92034• 1 year ago

Oh, it might also be for some of the rich, if they oppose the rulers.

timewizard5• 1 year ago

"We're going to have supervision," Ellison said. "Every police officer is going to be supervised at all times, and if there's a problem,

Nothing will happen. They're supervised currently and many carry body cameras. The public is entitled to complain about their behavior and there is an internal affairs unit. If none of this is currently working then simply turning up you observations will likewise do nothing.

Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on.

That's not how human citizens work. It's hard to believe that someone so well connected can project such parochial and theocratic false ideas about the world.

Ellison also expects AI drones to replace police cars in high-speed chases. "You just have a drone follow the car," Ellison said. "It's very simple in the age of autonomous drones."

Larry, the reason we chase people, is because they can get to a location and further victimize people. Knowing where they are is half the battle, the other half is going there and getting them into custody.

The demented mind of a spoiled child. This is what happens to you when you refuse to compete and instead lean into your state connections to earn your lifestyle. Disgusting, really.

mac3n• 1 year ago

s/citizen/subject/

asdefghyk• 1 year ago

Would Larry benefit from "vast AI-fueled surveillance system can ensure 'citizens will be on their best behavior'" Would his companies sell products or services needed .....

tetrisgm• 1 year ago

Pathetic man wants to monetize your rights to privacy. Will use big words to make it sound ok.

animitronix• 1 year ago

Dude can move to China if this is the society he wants to live in.

spencerflem• 1 year ago

He's being given 500 billion dollars to build it here :c

mrcsharp2• 1 year ago

Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison.

https://youtube.com/watch?t=1980&v=-zRN7XLCRhc

merek• 1 year ago

This is amazing, thanks for sharing

mrcsharp2• 1 year ago

The entire talk is great! Highly recommended.

dh2022• 1 year ago

And of course Oracle will provide the software.

TrackerFF• 1 year ago

So, social credit system then?

Havoc• 1 year ago

More importantly oracle will be able to count your cores better

1vuio0pswjnm7• 1 year ago

"Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on."

What about non-citizens.

caseyy• 1 year ago

Ah yes, the torment nexus. https://x.com/AlexBlechman/status/1457842724128833538

adfm• 1 year ago

You could just as easily say that Elba was a private island.

djsedaw• 1 year ago

Well he can f right off!

Larry Ellison: vast AI surveillance can ensure citizens are on best behavior (2024)

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