Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable

https://www.ifixit.com/News/101675/bike-manufacturers-are-making-bikes-less-repairable

by LorenDB • 2 years ago

207 206 2 years ago

Unregulated markets trend towards brand lock-ins, proprietary parts, cheaper goods of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc. All businesses are doing this everywhere because we are running out of World for them to expand into, but any company that posts a less profitable quarter is presumed to be failing.

For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of this.

nickff3• 2 years ago

There are lots of counter-examples to this, such as the market for microprocessors. Huge market, few regulations, excellent quality, remarkably low switching costs.

ToucanLoucan3• 2 years ago

"Huge" market? AMD and Intel. Technically Apple but they don't sell to OEM's, and of course bespoke processors for specific applications.

It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.

taeric2• 2 years ago

Can't get past the intro sentence without getting triggered. No, most people cannot fix a bike. As evidenced by the horrid shape most bikes are in. Heaven help folks that get the brakes so that they need to replace pads. You are as often to see people that ruined rims as you are to see people that did that correctly.

Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need apps to run. That is just baffling.

So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.

ThrowawayTestr3• 2 years ago

Unlike car maintenance bike maintenance is way more accessible. You need like one or two specialized tools to cover the majority of the work you'll do on your bike compared to a car. People are just lazy.

sidewndr462• 2 years ago

Exactly what specialized tools do you need to work on a car? Are you counting closed end wrenches and sockets as "specialized" or something?

taeric2• 2 years ago

I think the reality of most people using bikes in rather low stakes situations also changes things heavily. That is, many are riding bikes that I would not trust down a hill going 30+mph. But, notably, most people are not going anywhere close to 30mph on a bicycle.

To that end, you are correct that most people are just needing to clean their bike. Replace the occasional consumable part of it, maybe. Keep it clean, though, and you are unlikely to need to replace any parts anytime soon.

Edit: And, again, limit this to ebikes and things change pretty rapidly. It is trivial to get an ebike to 25mph.

taylodl2• 2 years ago

Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously

The kids in my neighborhood are zipping around on these things at 30 MPH. In my state it's illegal for these kids to be riding around on these things, but the law isn't being enforced. Probably more of a hassle for the officer than it's worth.

And safety? Bwahahahaha! Kids are riding these at 30 MPH in shorts, t-shirt and maybe a bicycle helmet. Just the other day I saw three girls who appeared to be middle school-aged hop on an e-delivery type bike and ride 3 up! All they were wearing were those super short and super thin shorts girls like to wear, and a t-shirt. Not a single helmet. Yet there they were riding 3 up on this e-bike on public streets just after the peak of evening rush hour.

It's insane! I'm continually amazed we're not seeing more news stories of kids getting hurt on these things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we're not seeing these news stories, but I'm amazed we aren't.

hotspot_one• 2 years ago

I'm wondering what insurance companies are going to say. I have a feeling they will be the driving force at least in the US, since they are the ones picking up the bills.

wink3• 2 years ago

Unfortunately I am missing a "modern" rim brake bike to confirm I am not going mad, but back in the 90s about half of the time we fixed a flat at the back the shifting was off after that and needed readjusting, and replacing brake pads usually meant fiddling for an hour until everything aligned well again.

Compare to any disc brake bike I have owned (bought later than 2010)... everything is super smooth. I just can't believe both my dad and I (when I was teenager) were completely inept and now as an adult I can magically fix bikes.

Micand• 2 years ago

I'm grateful that my 2019 Norco Section uses a round seatpost, threaded Shimano BB, and standard cockpit; I deplore the "self-adjusting" D-shaped Giant seatpost on my girlfriend's bike (which is subtly off-centre and takes all kinds of witchery to approximate the ease with which I can adjust a standard seatpost), as well as the mess of BBs and integrated cockpits that are becoming common even on mid-range road & gravel bikes. When I buy my next bike, I will go out of my way to select something using standardized parts. I very much hope something akin to the Framework laptop comes to market in cycling, where the entire machine is built to be user-serviceable with off-the-shelf, readily available parts. I put something like 20,000 km commuting to school on my early 1970s Raleigh Record, which I rebuilt almost completely with my brother, and it was a gloriously simple machine that I miss dearly today.

bgribble• 2 years ago

You can still buy bikes like that. There are plenty of people still making frame sets that will work with standard drive train components, standard sized stems, and plain ol handlebars in a variety of shapes. And they will build a bike for you.

I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit, but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a fraction of the weight of the bike!

Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or other replaceable parts.

aidenn02• 2 years ago

It does seem like a complete bike that is under $1100 or so today will be less repairable than the bike I got in 2008 for $600 (less than $900 in 2024 dollars).

soared2• 2 years ago

Im going to disagree - bikes are incredibly more repairable because of e-commerce. I no longer rely on local availability of parts, and lack of documentation when doing repairs. YouTube has infinite knowledge and Amazon/walmart ship literally any part to my door. Bottom bracket as an example I don’t think is fair - I’m an avid cyclist and have never once heard of anyone working in their bottom bracket. Chain, derailleur, cranks/pedals, brakes, handlebars, seat, etc are all very reasonable to do but bottom brackets everyone takes to a shop.

Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6 online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair, but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks replaced.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

It's true for mechanical bikes!

For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery!

But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver.

Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!

selimthegrim• 2 years ago

Often times community bike shops will have tools to let you fix one. It is a kind of once in a decade repair though.

ljf2• 2 years ago

Yeah I've only ever had to use my bottom bracket tool twice in 20 years of cycling, wasn't so hard to do (moving from a cracked frame to a new one once, and replacing a bottom bracket that had gone in a bmx) - but I doubt most people would try to diy it - it just so happened that I had the tool in my 'every tool you might ever need' kit from China.

renewiltord• 2 years ago

I've replaced a couple and the conclusion is that this definitely has economies of scale since you will very rarely use the tool. Better to go take it to a bike shop. It wasn't hard once I had the tools, but I'm not going to use the tools that often. And I'm more likely to lose the bottom bracket adapter tool than reuse it, if I'm being honest.

fragmede• 2 years ago

the online direct business doesn't have to pay rent for a shop space in an accessible part of Denver though, which is why downtowns can't compete on price

criddell2• 2 years ago

shop prices are absolutely disgusting

Do you think they are high because that's what it takes to pay for labor and rent, or are they high because the owners are greedy and are getting rich?

soared2• 2 years ago

Simply high from a consumers perspective. Some shops certainly are greedy (PE owned, multiple locations, like evo). But for the truly lbs I don’t know the cause.

thefaux2• 2 years ago

I'm not saying these prices aren't painful, but I am pretty sure there are very few bike shop owners, let alone employees, with enviable wealth.

anthomtb• 2 years ago

I replaced my own bottom bracket!

Ok well, first I destroyed the threads on the cranks meant to interface with the bottom bracket tool. Thus requiring a shop visit. And the shop, after consulting with the frame manufacturer, cut the destroyed cranks off with an angle grinder (and posted a video to their Facebook page - you don't usually see that many sparks in a bike shop).

But hey, I now have a nice, let-the-pros-do-this-job souvenir (the wrecked cranks). And my bracket/bearings are creak-free and spinning quite nicely three years later.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Founder of Gouach, the repairable (and fireproof!) e-bike battery mentioned in the article, happy to answer any question!

- we salvaged 100s of discarded e-bike batteries

- we found that 90% of components were like new

- batteries were thrown away because of the spot-welding and the glue which prevents repairability

- we spent 2 years (and 5 patents) to design a robust, safe, and easy to assemble system that requires nothing but a screwdriver

Our batteries have been in use since 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks), and we're very happy with their performances!

We're now opening it to the general public (for conversion kits, and to replace old batteries that are no longer manufactured)

We plan to open-source at least part of the embedded software, so people can write extensions (to let their battery "talk" with any e-bike system, and share it — using WASM embeddable code — to other people on the web!)

Let's fight planned obsolescence!

(and if you're looking for a new battery, there's 25% off on https://get.gouach.com)

gr__or• 2 years ago

absolutely beautiful mission, thank you!

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Thanks so much!! Appreciated

acyou10• 2 years ago

How do you address local heat generation at the interfaces between the cells and the contacts? Does that pose additional risk of cell failure leading to thermal runaway in high current scenarios?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Yes! You can check the technical details on our documentation and our FAQ here (sorry, we're still cleaning up now, but feel free to ask for details)

https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-ques...

We've seen that our design does not pose heating or resistance issues

pims• 2 years ago

Hello,

I own a Specialized Vado SL from 2022. Can I use your battery as a range extender?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Yes! You can use the Datex extender that we sell when you order the battery here https://get.gouach.com

bsimpson• 2 years ago

That's awesome!

Minor grammar tip - saying "since 2 years" is a tell that you're a non-native speaker. It's a common mistake that most people will understand, but the correct phrasing is "for 2 years."

I'm sure this is a pitch you practice a lot, so I wanted to help for next time.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Thank you!! Appreciated :)

cibyr3• 2 years ago

Why does configuration require a closed-source app, with an account on your proprietary platform?

sriacha• 2 years ago

Web page claims the app is being open-sourced.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

There is no required account :)

The app just allows to connect over Bluetooth to the battery if you want to set a wifi password to retrieve your data and set alerts!

It also lets you configure your battery for any type of e-bike system

sandworm101• 2 years ago

> 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks)

Um... Paris isn't exactly a harsh climate. Send some batteries to me in a month or two and I'll show them winter. Proper winter starts when it stops snowing.

oneplane• 2 years ago

Everything is relative ;-) Hash in the context of places where you'd ride your bike is a very different kind of hash than let's say, the weather on mercury or pluto.

detourdog• 2 years ago

That’s great have you looked into the marine industry?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Not yet! If you have interesting applications or contacts, we'd love to know! Send us an email at contact@gouach.com :)

biglyburrito• 2 years ago

I just read about Gouach on Indiegogo last week ( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/infinite-the-repairable-u... ) -- very cool stuff.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Thanks so much!!

dperrin• 2 years ago

In the thermal runaway video, you have steel bars holding the battery down. Is there risk of the battery casing blowing apart without that steel holding it down?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

No! The casing contains the explosion. We just used steel bar to be extra safe, and make sure the batteries don't move while filming

cutchin• 2 years ago

I wish they'd have given more examples for traditional bikes than bottom brackets. Yeah, bike shops have to deal with lots of different BBs, but that's because they deal with bikes that might be 30 or 40 years old, from all over the planet. Some threaded, some press-fit, etc. Some high-end, some very cheap.

On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.)

Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.

blacksmith_tb• 2 years ago

I agree that the message seems to mostly be about e-bikes, though I will say I was recently forced to get yet another Shimano BB / rotor tool recently, and I have quite an assortment of them now... My newest ride has a belt (not an ebike, but Gates + Alfine 11sp) which means more unique bits (but likely not for a while, I did have to get a fitting to oil the hub, but that's less work than keeping a chain lubed, so I can't complain).

kjkjadksj10• 2 years ago

Hub is way more work than the chain. I have to repack mine soon and its going to take me getting it open, replacing the ball bearings, packing them in new grease after cleaning out old, then an undetermined amount of fiddling getting them just a quarter turn or so too loose in the cones so the quick release will torque them perfectly when its installed. Thats assuming nothing fights me along the way like a seized locknut on the cassette.

Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then its fine for another long while.

ted_dunning• 2 years ago

I had a belt drive not so long ago and when the belt broke, I found out that the entire system had been recalled by Continental with no repair or upgrade path possible. I couldn't even get a replacement belt.

The bike was a write-off as a result.

Oh... the Alfine hub that is supposedly nice and weather-proof get some rust in it that pitted some of the bearing races in the hub. Turns out those are not replaceable short of torching the hub.

wink3• 2 years ago

I spent 6 months chasing down a new rear wheel because my freewheel hub had broke and I didn't want to spend twice the price of the used bike on a new wheel set from the manufacturer.

Visited many local bike shops, got a lot of bad advice there (same as online), then finally got told what to order exactly at one online shop because not even their supplier had it.

Maybe the blame is not on the manufacturer here because they wanted to make it less repairable, but if showed me a lesson in non-standard components. (it's an 11-speed Ultegra on a QR, which seems to be very, very uncommon).

But just the amount of "just do X" responses I got showed that there are too many fine details.

acyou10• 2 years ago

Lithium ion batteries and battery modules are never ever gonna be user repairable. The main reason is that the electrolyte is a highly toxic, carcinogenic and extremely flammable organic solvent. AAs are user swappable because the electrolyte is water based.

Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge bearings are used.

Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see a straight up plastic adult bike frame?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Check out what we're building at https://get.gouach.com ! We're solving exactly this problem, and we have designed a fireproof casing for extra safety! Happy to answer any question :)

acyou10• 2 years ago

I could see this being interesting if you handle all the aspects of pack teardown, rebuild and recertification, and send out finished packs. Would you be comfortable with doing that and standing behind those 100%?

Asking regular people or even highly technical people to assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire. It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new, matched cells.

Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case for consumer products.

Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and a cell vents, will it start a fire?

How are you going to thoroughly test with your production parts before shipping to customers next month?

userbinator3• 2 years ago

Lion cell electrolytes are nowhere near as toxic as those of NiCd or lead-acid. Flammability is the biggest risk. Toxicity is comparable to acetone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_carbonate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_carbonate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate

acyou10• 2 years ago

Yes, but unless you drink the lead acid battery acid, you're not exposed to it. Ditto for NiCd. No one is drinking battery electrolyte. The key is that all of the above in Lithium ion are VOC and highly available, including what you mentioned and worse, specifically NMP.

derkades• 2 years ago

At least standardized form factors and no complex proprietary communication protocols to the battery would help a lot to make battery replacements more affordable

woah• 2 years ago

AAs aren't user repairable either. When was the last time you repaired an AA? What the article is asking for is just a standardized connector and voltage for Li-ion batteries.

acyou10• 2 years ago

I misspoke, what I intended to say is that lithium ion batteries are never going to be user swappable. Yes, you can get sketchy stuff off of Amazon that supports it, but the regulatory bodies will, correctly, continue to strongly resist end users touching bare lithium ion cells.

Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and toxic chemicals out one end.

Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab, for various good safety reasons.

mschuster912• 2 years ago

Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades.

Steel frames are heavy beasts. Aluminum alloys, magnesium alloys or carbon fiber is waaaay lighter in contrast, and weight is king at least if you're not running with electrical assistance.

It's exactly the same in cars, there we have exactly the same trend towards lighter but more brittle materials.

AdrianB15• 2 years ago

I used to race as an amateur for almost 10 years. I saw people winning on steel frame bikes and for flat terrain the weight of the bike is not that important. Carbon is light indeed, but the frame as a percent of the overall bike can be quite low, as low as 25%. Half a kilo in a 12 kg MTB is insignificant except pro races.

whalesalad• 2 years ago

Bikes have sucked for a long time and they just seem to be getting worse. Even a bike that costs $5k+ will inevitably fall apart. I find that if you are a real serious cyclist the best option is to buy your own frame and then build your own rig with bespoke parts.

burningChrome• 2 years ago

I've bought a lot of bikes in my lifetime and only twice have I opted to build a bike from scratch. Both times I was working on a bike shop. It was really the second time when one of our dealers had a "bike shop deal" where you could get a frame/fork setup for like $300. The Fox fork on the frame was worth around $700 so it was a really good deal.

The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes on and on.

It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together which took quite a while.

It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model. Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs dialed in.

thefaux2• 2 years ago

Building a road bike with a threaded bottom bracket, rim brakes and pre built brakes really isn't that bad. I was pretty unexcited when disc brakes were introduced to road bikes due to the increased maintenance burden.

adgjlsfhk1• 2 years ago

A $5k bike will fall apart way more quickly than a $1k to $2k bike. The only reason to get a $5k bike is if you are trying to win a race and have other people to do the maintenance for you. The lower end (but not absolute cheapest) parts are generally more reliable since they aren't nearly as weight optimized.

infecto• 2 years ago

Maybe? I am not really sold on bikes falling apart. They all have consumables. It’s no different than a car. Sure there are some hyper specific frame styles, thinking of you tri bikes, but beyond that they don’t feel less repairable.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Yes, bikes built with race equipment need to be maintained like race equipment. Don't buy a $5k bike (or a Porsche) if you are going to complain about maintenance intervals.

swayvil• 2 years ago

Speaking as an ex bicycle repair man, this irks and/or boggles me. I feel trolled. I mean, I doubt the veracity of this headline and I think they're making shit up.

Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts. Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel tuner.

I can smell it now.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Parliament breaks between coats of Mastik...yeah, sometimes I think I miss that smell, but I don't.

mauvehaus2• 2 years ago

Work in a bike shop part-time. Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect.

As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."

We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality. I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't need it to just go for a ride.

Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They also want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary direction.

That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that are used in less-integrated installations across bike manufacturers.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

You're right!

Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch batteries.

Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch battery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc

(the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning to film a new one next week haha)

mauvehaus2• 2 years ago

Appreciate the work you're doing, and to be clear: I'm not defending any of Bosch's business practices and vendor lock-in[0]. I do appreciate that they're big enough that they pop up on multiple manufacturers' bikes and that they offer a battery system that looks decent enough that various manufacturers are willing to use it.

[0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their diagnostic software...

criddell2• 2 years ago

I'd love for the EU (because I know the US won't do it) to start requiring battery standardization. I normally am complaining about power tool batteries, but now that I've started looking at ebikes it's clear that a more general regulation would really benefit consumers.

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Exactly! And EU is mandating that light mobility electric batteries be repairable (able to change cells) starting 2027!

kjkjadksj10• 2 years ago

Realistically you only need the tools for your bike. Hardly matters that there are a dozen bb types, you pick the adapter you need and move on. And by and large most people are going to be something common like 22 spline not those weird campy bb from 50 years ago.

AdrianB15• 2 years ago

You are spot on. We have several bicycles in my extended family and I have the tools to repair all of it, but when we bought or built the bikes we looked for the widest compatibility possible of the spare parts: 2 BB types, 2 chain types, 2 fork and bearing types and 4 wheel sizes for ~ 10 bikes. The only "rare" tools are a Shimano Hollowtech 2 wrench and the "square BB" one, the rest are common tools most people have in the house.

asciimike• 2 years ago

Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect.

I agree the various (totally random) BB standards are a pain; every bike build I've done has meant that I CADed and then 3D printed the tool (100% infill PETG, takes ~2 hours on a Prusa MK3S).

Curious how long it is before we get 3D printing tech easy enough to where shops can have a printer, download any special tools for a bike assembly, and make them in a few hours.

Hope is a great example of a manufacturer who does this today: https://www.hopetech.com/open-source-tools/

tln2• 2 years ago

Kudos to your shop for working on e-bikes at all. My experiences have been that bike shops/mechanics won't even do normal bike stuff, like working on brakes, when its an e-bike.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

I had 3 simple questions to decide if an e-bike went in my stand: 1.) Does the frame use a seatpost? 2.) Are there any frayed or broken wires? 3.) Is the power cable to the motor removable?

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Bottom bracket fussing is a tale as old as time. I have a bike from 1983 with an original Suntour bottom bracket. It even uses cartridge bearings! But the spline pattern for the cups is proprietary and the tool has long been out of production.

ryandrake2• 2 years ago

As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."

Whenever you put a computer into a device that has historically been reliable and never needed a computer, you instantly limit its reliability to that of the computer (which usually becomes the most failure-prone and/or non-repairable part in the device).

TRiG_Ireland2• 2 years ago

The science/education podcast Let's Learn Everything had an episode recently about planned obsolescence [1], and it does seem to have started with the bicycle. So this is not new.

1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the...

oulipo20• 2 years ago

This is very intersting! Thanks

TRiG_Ireland2• 2 years ago

I've just noticed that the timestamps on the page are clearly from a different episode. The planned obsolescence section actually starts at 57:42.

abyssin2• 2 years ago

Bicycles should be required to be sold with a sheet of all the measurements of replacement parts. I find that buying the correct part is often the biggest hurdle in maintaining my bicycles.

gonzo41• 2 years ago

OMG yes. This so much.

wink3• 2 years ago

Or just small details like: If you already provide a list of what rim and spokes, maybe add the size of the spoke nipples. Or what model of brake pad.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Complete bicycle manufacturers usually make these specification lists public in online and print catalogs. Component-level repair, as in many other fields, requires more specialized knowledge and a parts list is rarely practical nor helpful.

abyssin2• 2 years ago

I'm happy to learn about it. I've owned trekking/urban bicycles from multiples brands and never found such documents, except maybe using archive.org to get old marketing pages.

m4636• 2 years ago

ever think the government should (externally) tax non-repairable stuff?

Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?

oulipo20• 2 years ago

Great idea!

idunnoman12225• 2 years ago

Who decides if it’s repairable?

m4636• 2 years ago

Even a small start would be useful, like "user-replacable battery".

not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery would pass.

hedora2• 2 years ago

Mandate a ten year warranty that covers labor but (maybe) not parts.

glaucon• 2 years ago

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but what does "(externally)" mean ? A tariff ? In large enough trading blocs I would be concerned that manufacturing of the non-repairable part would just move within the bloc. I'm in favour of the idea but the mechanism might need some thought.

m4636• 2 years ago

Sorry, I was thinking outside the whole corporate tax system. Tax stuff as it is sold, like gas taxes happen at point-of-sale.

I suspect subsidies and corporate taxes and the rest are a convoluted mess that might not serve people as well.

pessimizer• 2 years ago

I don't. I think they should force people to redesign if things are unnecessarily non-repairable, and in some cases subsidize that redesign. The government should also create standards (including standard component designs) that automatically pass the product if adhered to.

If we're going to be officially judging what is repairable and not repairable, we should commit to dealing with it fully rather than half-assing and leaving infinite loopholes.

Lio• 2 years ago

Hmm, I don’t know anything about ebikes but normal bikes seem to be going back to BSA threaded bottom brackets.

The last 3 bikes I’ve bought have had BSA.

fire_lake4• 2 years ago

How to make your life super easy if shopping for a bike:

- 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered

- Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded ones won’t last as long.

- QR or common thru-axle

- Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made)

- Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if you care about dropper posts

- Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price.

- Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and better value that drop bar!

- If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical equipment. It’s much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro level not so long ago.

- External cable routing!

- Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of weigh/cost/durability

- Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor in comfort

- Never buy a bike that doesn’t fit you

These tips won’t get you the best bike (in terms of absolute performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.

ricardobeat• 2 years ago

I.. appreciate the effort but even as an owner of three bikes, and doing maintenance myself most of the time, I barely understand half of this list. I imagine most casual bicycle riders would be in the same boat?

No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is this racing bike lingo?

fire_lake4• 2 years ago

SHIS is standard headset identification

QR is quick release (as in wheels)

BB is bottom bracket

Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!

ryandrake2• 2 years ago

Yea, wow, I know you can go infinitely deep on any topic, but bicycle nerds are a species all their own!

Here's how I bought my bicycle, as a total casual: Went to craigslist, typed in "bicycle", bought the one that looked to be in good shape for $50. It's lasted me 15 years and the only maintenance I've ever had to do on it was change tire tubes. I don't even know much about it. It says "Specialized Crossroads" on it, I guess that's the brand name.

unethical_ban2• 2 years ago

You know more than I do about bikes. I've assembled one (except for fork/handlebars) myself and have ridden various styles.

My only objection is brakes. If it can fit your budget, mechanical disc is worth the lower maintenance, adjustment, weather resistance over rim brakes. Disc in general have the fringe benefit of being able to swap tire sizes for different purposes.

Hydraulic disc are smoother and somewhat more effective, at the expense of money and ease of maintenance.

kjkjadksj10• 2 years ago

Rim breaks are pretty maintenance free. I just replaced the pads only thing ive done to them in 5 years with this bike. $15 and 2 mins of work.

Lwerewolf• 2 years ago

-Rim brakes means ever so slightly bent rim = SOL.

-There are some decent internal cable routing setups. The newest fad (through-headset), though...

-Comfort has a ton of variables, of which tyre volume/pressure/type/details(inserts/etc) are a major part of, but not the be-all-end-all. Grips, handlebars, saddles, pedals, crank length, etc, etc, etc, etc...

kjkjadksj10• 2 years ago

Rim breaks are fine for most people. your wheel has to be very very visually out of true to cause problems and thats only a $20 fix at the local bike shop. A little cathunk in the hands during braking never hurt anyone. Source: rode $40 bikes through college. Most of the comfort stuff is not applicable unless you are spending hours and hours in the saddle. You aren’t going to notice the crank arms are too short or your reach is too long commuting 30 mins to work.

bbqfog2• 2 years ago

I wouldn't recommend anyone get quick release, thru-axle is so much better. Disc brakes too, it's such a huge upgrade. I'd also say a dropper post if you're doing anything off-road, or maybe even on-road, they're awesome!

hi-v-rocknroll4• 2 years ago

Unlocked QR wheels and seats get stolen and vandalized. QR should generally only be used where transportation space is limited or for stationary security, but otherwise prefer permanently-installed ones at the expense of having to carry a wrench with the tire patch kit.

risenshinetech• 2 years ago

Hey guys, follow these 12 SUPER easy tips!

- Industry jargon

- Etc etc

adsteel_• 2 years ago

Rim brakes/pull-brakes/v-brakes are great even for serious off roading, though you may want to upgrade to long caliper pads, which make a world of difference. Disc brakes aren't helpful until you're doing serious downhill. Why everyone has disc brakes these days when they don't need them is a great question.

hi-v-rocknroll4• 2 years ago

Rim/v-brakes just need proper adjustment, replacement pads when worn, and clean rims. They're also much easier to control with finesse than disc brakes which tend to lock and require brake fluid and pads service. In rain though, I'd want disc brakes because rim/v-brakes can fade rapidly depending on material and coating of the rim.

ak217• 2 years ago

Hydraulic brakes have far better power and better power modulation. I think that matters a lot in terms of usability and confidence to a beginner. Especially in rainy weather.

mvdtnz2• 2 years ago

Shockingly bad advice.

TacticalCoder3• 2 years ago

Why everyone has disc brakes these days when they don't need them is a great question.

The reason I've got disc brakes is because of how precise and pleasant the feeling and feedback in the brake lever is. It's pure bliss.

I know it's totally overkill but the to me there's no comparison in how pleasant the brake lever is, so I don't mind paying a bit more.

AdrianB15• 2 years ago

I used to ride a lot in the mountains. Even on roads my disk brakes were blue from heat, rim brakes would simply die or make me die - no, thanks. Rim brakes are perfectly fine for city bikes, many road bikes and light offroad, but not for any long braking - that is not limited to downhill.

dogmatism• 2 years ago

carbon rims

enough said

hi-v-rocknroll4• 2 years ago

Back in the day, even on a low-end steel Miyata mountain bike, I had to have QR wheel and QR seat post keyed locks because of theft. They consisted of an epoxy-coated offset plate with a hole at each end and a miniature luggage lock. In general IMO, it's not worth having an expensive bike because it's just going to get ripped-off and likely lacks significant benefit over a middle-market one. (A friend of mine had a $8k USD road bike stolen in downtown Mountain View right in front of every passerby in the busiest area where cops pass every 10 minutes.) Also, the only time I ever forgot to lock my (undersized jacked up with very long seat post and handlebar extensions) Miyata in the rack at home (apartments) in Davis CA was the very time it was stolen.

For dry climates: wax lube. Wet lube is only for rainy climates and attracts dust like mad. Chain guard is a must for non-leisure riding.

And if you don't like changing tires very often and don't mind the extra free exercise of added rolling resistance, kevlar armor bands are a must have with green snot slime. Still have to carry a vulcanizing patch kit, levers, and a pump because goatheads are pure evil.

TheTon• 2 years ago

I don’t have many hard rules I follow about specific standards or parts when I shop for a bike, but I do have one guideline I adhere to:

I only buy bikes with online tech manuals containing exploded diagrams, dimensions, part numbers, and torque specs.

I look through the parts and verify that either the manufacturer has spares available on their web store or that they’re common parts available anywhere. I also look up older models and make sure the manufacturer still has manuals and parts for them too so I have confidence I will still be able to get parts in 5 years or so.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Threaded headsets are fine, "threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable, drop bars and their levers are fine and sometimes better, 2x10 is even cheaper than 2x11 (what's up Tiagra), AL was never uncool except for forks, mostly agree with the rest

TacticalCoder3• 2 years ago

"threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable,

Yup I confirm. I'm never buying that again.

AdrianB15• 2 years ago

"threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable

Are you including Shimano pressfit BBs here? Never had problems replacing it, not even needed special tools.

fire_lake4• 2 years ago

Threaded headsets work, but it’s an inferior design to threadless. There are no advantages to them at all - except maybe aesthetics!

The only modern bikes with threaded tend to be low end anyway. Best to avoid!

TacticalCoder3• 2 years ago

- Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made)

I confirm. High-end bicycle here, "only" 8 years old. Full carbon (frame and wheels).

Bottom bracket is now a bit noisy. I went to a shop only doing that brand and...

"Oh but it's a threadless BB, the company doesn't make that anymore. And because it's a carbon frame, it's too complicated/risky to change it. We suggest you buy a new bicycle".

That'd be on a five digits bicycle supposed to be of the absolute best quality. And, well, it definitely has one of these not well made expensive frame.

P.S: had to google the acronyms you used but I suggest everybody here to listen: GP knows what he's talking about.

alephxyz• 2 years ago

AFAIK you can extract the bearings from the bottom bracket with generic tools. So they should've been at least able to regrease or replace those. You can also find custom made bottom brackets online for 2-400€ if it comes down to that. But for an 8yo model from a big manufacturer you can find mass produced ones for a reasonable price. Maybe they just really wanted you to buy a new bike from them.

jcheng• 2 years ago

What make and model is it?

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

I suggest you find a new shop with better mechanics

CobaltFire• 2 years ago

I used the Ratio conversion to bring both my old 10 and newer 11 speed SRAM drop bar shifters to 12 speed spec.

Highly recommend!

https://bikepacking.com/gear/ratio-1x12-upgrade-kit-review/

wiredfool• 2 years ago

Meh. There have been Bike Shaped Objects sold at non-bike shops forever. Huffy used to be a complete joke of a bike, but in 1988 the 7-11 team rode "Huffy" frames. (which were really Serottas).

Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did.

Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in.

Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely. Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur.

I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes too.

iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.

fizx• 2 years ago

I think that's true for e-bikes, but that's perhaps to be expected in a newer market.

Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and basically everything else was standardized except some bearings. All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake, shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps things competitive.

idunnoman12225• 2 years ago

Opinionated solution; always buy used never buy electric. There are enough steel frames in the world that we probably never need to manufacture another one.

jerlam• 2 years ago

Unfortunately this isn't a new problem. My 20+ year old bike, that doesn't have a single electronic component on it, has a single special crankarm bolt because the crankarm is "integrated" with the spider, presumably to shave off a few grams. Four normal bolts and one special bolt that may be hard to find today.

A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing standards.

loeg• 2 years ago

There are many kinds of bottom bracket these days, but like, not that many. BSA is still extremely common and it's looking like T47 (which has two variants) will be the other common standard going forward. BB30, BB86 exist. Other variants are much less common.

Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try to generalize.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

Which major manufacturers are adopting T47?

mhandley• 2 years ago

My daily cycling mostly consists of a mile and a half to the station each way without any serious hills, but my station bike is one we got second-hand for my brother when he was a teenager back in 1980 or so and we repainted it back then, so it's probably over 50 years old. It is the scruffiest bike in the bike shed at the station, which is just the way I want it. But most importantly, just about everything on it still works. It was once a racer with a lightweight steel frame, but I put straight bars on it 20 years ago. It lives outside year round and has done so for 25 years, so it has a nice patina that means thieves always look the other way. A little rust converter every now and then ensures the corrosion looks much worse than it really is. The original pedals finally fell apart a couple of years ago, but replacements were readily available. The front derailier failed and I removed it, so it's a 5-speed now, but that is fine for my use. The saddle has been replaced many times. And the rear wheel needed replacing twice. But it's still on the original chainwheel (!), brakes, rear derailier, shifter and remarkably, front wheel. Headstock bearings and bottom bracket are original too. Anytime I have needed something, the local independent bike shop has it - all the parts are still available.

Alongside it at the station are so many nice looking bikes, but chances are mine will outlive all of them and not get stolen either. Anyway, if you're getting a bike as transport, get yourself something used from way back that was a high quality bike back then. Some of them at least were built to last, they're easy to repair, and are still way lighter than most modern bike shaped objects.

mvdtnz2• 2 years ago

I have no respect for e-bikes and couldn't care less about how they're constructed, but I ride mountain bikes and a return to standardisation is a big theme of the newer generation of MTB. People are shunning brands that ship proprietary crap in favour of universal parts and sizes.

foco_tubi13• 2 years ago

This mostly seems to be a complaint about e-bikes and batteries. Almost all major manufacturers are still making mostly user-repairable bikes for recreational riding and commuting.

From nearly a decade of bike industry experience, I can say that most people should not be doing their own repairs, or should at least have someone check their work. Lack of experience, shoddy mechanical aptitude, and poor attention to detail can all add up quickly to missing teeth and broken bones, or worse.

jacknews• 2 years ago

"This makes it all the more important that we have legislation to force them to make proprietary parts available for riders to buy themselves"

Of course this should be the case, but even then I'm not sure it would help, as they will simply make the spare parts so costly that it's uneconomical.

Maybe there should be a 'standardization' score, somewhat like energy efficiency scores, that could then be mandated.

Or mandate that parts interfaces must be documented and published as standards, and be free and open for competitors.

The basic problem is that almost the whole of business has discovered or decided that their reason for existence is to get money out of people, and that providing the best products and services they can is merely incidental and not actually necessary, especially if they all play the same game.

sporkland• 2 years ago

I hate how fetishists on certain narrow cross cutting topics (e.g. right to repair, open source, environmentalists, security) drag the conversation in such a negative direction. The biggest revolution in biking accessibility happened in the last 10 years with electrification of bicycles. Most people care about total cost of ownership. The old bicycle were 100% repairable by most people and while it's a loss to not to be able to do that anymore it won't impact many people other than the ones looking to either drop their costs to near zero or the fetishists who will scream their heads off the whole time.

It reminds me of not being able to pick a milk without getting scorn from somewhere (real milk ~ cows, oat milk ~ sugar, macadamia milk ~ env impact, soy milk ~ hormones, etc). All the while we're watering alfalfa to feed cows for beef.

Oh boy the bikes are less repairable, even though half the city dwellers could be replacing cars with electric bikes. A car has way higher repair bills and up front purchase costs not to mention the ongoing costs.

Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable

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