PayPal (USA) will automatically share data about you to participating stores

https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/upcoming-policies-full

by xyst • 2 years ago

296 131 2 years ago

xyst6• 2 years ago

Automatic data sharing policy to take effect on November 27, 2024. If you do not want PP to share your data with “participating stores”, you need to “opt out”.

Per e-mail sent regarding this policy update: “You can opt out of this at any time in your profile settings under "Data and Privacy."

thwarted• 2 years ago

Just logging in now, for the first time in years, I found two options that seem relevant.

For the first one: it presented that I had given permission to "paypal shopping" to share my identity. I removed that permission. This may be the automatically added permission that I had to opt out of. This was in a list of discrete permissions, or apparently so, since there was only one entry, but it could be removed by clicking on a trashcan icon.

For the second one, it was explicitly described with words like "share your info". This was a checkbox-slider, and it was already set to "off".

xyst6• 2 years ago

I didn’t revoke the “PayPal shopping” permission. But now I will.

Wonder if PP system automatically moves that slider to off if you revoke the “PayPal Shopping” permission. I honestly don’t remember granting that explicitly. Then again, I have only used PP for rare occasions

xyst6• 2 years ago

Also, maybe it defaults to off if you reside in USA and live in one of these states:

Information gathered about you after the effective date of our updated Privacy Statement, November 27, 2024, will be shared with participating stores where you shop, unless you live in California, North Dakota, or Vermont

TavsiE9s• 2 years ago

Any indication on _which_ setting under "Data and Privacy"?

xyst6• 2 years ago

One thing I realized. This appears to be a change in their privacy policy for _US_ PayPal. If you are not in USA (ie, Canada), then it likely won’t be there as it’s not rolling out to you.

For me: I opened the app, navigated to Profile > “Data and privacy” > “Personalized shopping” (under “Manage shared info” header) > toggle off “Let us share products, offers, and rewards you might like with participating stores”

Haven’t checked on paypal.com

_huayra_• 2 years ago

Here is the precise page, for anyone who wants to easily do it and amortize my settings perusing: https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/privacy/settings/recommenda...

RustyRussell• 2 years ago

Don't see anything relevant in Australia...

grogenaut• 2 years ago

thanks, the direct link works but I can't find it by browsing

accrual• 2 years ago

Thank you, this worked fine for me in the US, "Sharing is off".

blackeyeblitzar2• 2 years ago

It’d also ridiculous that I can only delete my data by closing my account.

LegitShady2• 2 years ago

option 2 - delete your paypal account, you dont need it.

wintermutestwin• 2 years ago

The whole reason why I use paypal for some purchases is to keep the vendor from knowing my PII.

Paypal Enshitification level = 11

tdeck• 2 years ago

Doesn't the vendor get your name and address when paying through PayPal?

mrkramer2• 2 years ago

S/he probably meant payment information as credit card number, cvv etc. And there was no way before this for merchant X to know what Alice or Bob bought from merchant Y.

n_plus_1_acc• 2 years ago

And E-Mail and phone number afair.

AStonesThrow• 2 years ago

PayPal already shares enough contact info for the purpose of shipping when I order physical goods.

This new sharing appears to consist of marketing data on items you shop for, not necessarily PII, unless you consider your inseam to be classified top secret.

xyst6• 2 years ago

What PayPal lists in the Privacy Policy for the US is only an example. I interpreted the change as “PayPal collects any number of information on you. Gives you seemingly innocuous data such as inseam. But in reality, we may collect political affiliation, contacts, salary information, and share that with retailers that want our data”

toomuchtodo4• 2 years ago

Is privacy.com an option for you? Disposable virtual payment card numbers and whatnot.

dynm• 2 years ago

Strongly recommend not using privacy.com. It's full of dark patterns and has lots of crazy behaviors like randomly locking your account and demanding good old picture of you with photo ID. For a privacy focused service, this is hilarious.

autoexec• 2 years ago

PayPal has always been a disaster. There have been so many stories of people having their accounts frozen for long periods of time while whatever passes for "customer service" at PayPal jerked them around or outright ignored them that I stopped using PayPal a very long time ago and I've never once regretted it.

I see that paypalsucks.com is gone now. Not sure when that happened (archive.org is down too), but really, people have had more than enough warning about what a shit company PayPal is, so anyone continuing to get screwed over by them now is pretty much asking for it.

noname120• 2 years ago

Is it only in the US? My PayPal account is from Switzerland. I haven't received an email and the option doesn't appear in "Data and Privacy" either.

xyst6• 2 years ago

yes - appears to be only US, for now.

edit: updated title to add (USA)

kevin_thibedeau• 2 years ago

US PayPal is not a bank. Other incarnations are and will be subject to the relevant banking regulations.

nurtbo• 2 years ago

Privacy laws actually work! Let’s pass more of them.

Information gathered about you after the effective date of our updated Privacy Statement, November 27, 2024, will be shared with participating stores where you shop, *unless you live in California, North Dakota, or Vermont.* For PayPal customers in California, North Dakota, or Vermont, we’ll only share your information with those merchants if you tell us to do so

darknavi• 2 years ago

This is so open faced and gross. It reminds of someone talking about getting paid minimum wage. If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

It also reminds me of State Farm's (auto/home insurance in the US) website with this link at the bottom:

Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information (CA residents only)

toomuchtodo4• 2 years ago

Don’t get mad, get active. Keep cranking on the policy ratchet, progress and success is clearly possible.

mrkramer2• 2 years ago

That's what Disqus has at the bottom of every of their comments section[0]. I find it ridiculous.

[0] https://electricdusk.com/img/disqus-gdpr-violation-marketing...

blackeyeblitzar2• 2 years ago

I would like a tax relating to privacy violations to be retroactive in all these other states. It’s actually legal to apply a retroactive tax, so why not?

seneca• 2 years ago

If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

The minimum wage is the government saying "if you produce less value than this arbitrary cut off, you aren't allowed to work".

heavensteeth• 2 years ago

If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

Doesn't this apply to all pay rates? It's not like high-paying jobs are high-paying for the love in the employer's heart.

When does a wage stop being gross? 1c over minimum wage? $1 over?

tmpz22• 2 years ago

In 1999 the show writers of the West Wing accurately predicated this in an episode about the selection of a Supreme Court Judge:

"It's not just about abortion, it's about the next 20 years. In the '20s and '30s it was the role of government. '50s and '60s it was civil rights. The next two decades are going to be privacy. I'm talking about the Internet. I'm talking about cell phones. I'm talking about health records and who's gay and who's not. And moreover, in a country born on the will to be free, what could be more fundamental than this?"

- Sam Seaborn (Rob Lowe) West Wing (ep: The Short List) 1999

- We've seen massive breaches of EMR systems

- We've seen massive breeahes from dating apps (Grindr) outing Gay individuals

- None of these entities faced significant consequences for their actions and continue to operate with large amounts of profit.

- 2 years after this episode the Patriot Act was passed. We've failed on privacy so far.

SturgeonsLaw• 2 years ago

Imagine if the real government was as competent and good faith as the West Wing government

m463• 2 years ago

The government has failed the constituents.

Regulatory capture is still the highest ROI investment, and we should work on that.

awkwardpotato• 2 years ago

There are so many beautiful quote I love from the West Wing... but this one stands out for me because of how (a decade off but) shockingly accurate it is.

LegitShady2• 2 years ago

you know what works better? delete your paypal account and dont use them as a service. I did this years ago and in fact have never missed not having one of these accounts. and since I'm not using paypal they're not sharing info on my to stores when i shop, whether my local laws allow it or not.

OJFord4• 2 years ago

They refuse to delete the account I never intentionally created (their scammy credit card checkout tactics when I had no other option) unless I provide them a bunch of data I've never previously given them in order to 'verify' my identity.

guywithahat• 2 years ago

They also raise the bar of entry for companies, reducing competition. I don't use PayPal and won't use Venmo in stores because of this, however I certainly wouldn't be putting trust in more legislation solving this.

davidlumley• 2 years ago

Can you explain what bar has been raised unless you were planning to sell PII as part of your business model?

rrix2• 2 years ago

I live in Oregon but they opted me out by default, perhaps because I have an old CA address in my list of old delivery addresses?

levocardia• 2 years ago

I've gotten the sense that PayPal is circling the drain lately. Whenever I log on (which is rare) I'm bombarded by modals and banners offering payment plans, digital coupons, etc. When I receive money, there's lots of clever UI design that's trying to trick me into transferring it instantly (for a fee) or keeping it in PayPal, as opposed to withdrawing it to my bank account. I suppose this is just one more sign the company is in financial trouble.

homebrewer• 2 years ago

Lately? It's been that way for decades.

I'll add one more to your list: since many things are paid in USD, and most of us live outside the US, your payment goes through a currency conversion. Up until a few years ago it was possible to configure PayPal to let your bank convert using bank's own rates, although it was hidden behind dark UI patterns. Then they removed it and now force you to run conversion at PayPal rates, which are just terrible, much worse than any bank I've ever used. This was about the time I stopped using PayPal completely, so I can't say exactly how much of a price hike this caused, but it's probably around 10%.

Novosell• 2 years ago

I can still defer conversion to my bank.

gruez• 2 years ago

Then they removed it and now force you to run conversion at PayPal rates, which are just terrible, much worse than any bank I've ever used.

When was this? As of a few months ago it was working fine for me, although it required a bit of finagling to get it to work on new cards I added.

bee_rider4• 2 years ago

I have thought PayPal was circling the drain for so long that, honestly, it probably says more about me than PayPal. Still though, I don’t get it, as far as I can tell they are just… essentially doing the same thing as credit card companies, but with less regulatory protection for their customers.(?)

Like they made sense 20 years ago when banks didn’t know about the internet. But now they are befuddling.

404mm• 2 years ago

Despite my bottomless hate for PayPal, I’ve been keeping my account active because there was always some worse option to give your credit card number to.

But with Privacy.com, I’m finally ready to let go.

koyote2• 2 years ago

Same here, I absolutely despise PayPal but end up using them often because I simply don't trust most retailers with my card information :(

(and it's often faster checkout if I don't have my CC details handy)

That being said, there's quite a bit of competition these days from BNPL vendors (klarna, afterpay etc.). I don't believe they are any more virtuous though...

UberFly• 2 years ago

I'm also all in on privacy.com. I hope they stick around because it's such an awesome service.

AlbertCory2• 2 years ago

Every time I bring this up, someone says "oh, they'll ruin your credit rating!"

No, actually they don't, unless you do something fraudulent. If you cancel your subscription legitimately and then kill the credit card, you've just made sure there aren't any "accidental" charges.

tiffanyh• 2 years ago

Looking at their revenue charted tells a different story.

One in which they are thriving.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382619/paypal-annual-rev...

PayPal ($29B) also does more revenue than Mastercard ($25B).

yellers• 2 years ago

Revenue != Profit

zaptrem• 2 years ago

No matter where you live, you’ll always be able to exercise your right to opt out of this data sharing by updating your preference settings in your account under “Data and Privacy.”

There is currently no opt out button or switch on this page on their website when signed in through either my personal or business account.

Edit: Someone further down direct linked to it here https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/privacy/settings/recommenda...

No idea how they got this screen, as when I click back it gives me the same menu I saw before where this option doesn’t exist and the website design is different.

kelnos5• 2 years ago

I managed to get there through the main privacy settings screen, but I'm a California resident, so PayPal is legally required to give me that option. Perhaps you live somewhere else? But maybe PayPal hasn't removed access to the setting, just the link to it?

grahamj• 2 years ago

Glad I deleted my account some time ago

sourcepluck2• 2 years ago

I have tried to delete my PayPal account on ten different occasions (I mean, something like that), and never succeed to do so. A maze of dark patterns and crappy UI and buttons that go nowhere. I even sent a couple of emails one of the times, and then gave up when there was no response. They're a heinous company.

latexr• 2 years ago

Anecdotally, I deleted my PayPal account a few weeks ago and found it pretty easy. I’m in Europe, which may have made the difference.

sourcepluck2• 2 years ago

I'm in Europe! I haven't tried in ages, a few years I suppose. I'm going to try again, bolstered by your comment. Thank you, kind netizen. Maybe they've been obliged to stop messing around as much with some of the new laws of the past years.

dghlsakjg2• 2 years ago

I battled this. Turns out the key was to get the CFPB involved. Within a few weeks I received a letter of explanation from their legal department and my account was deleted.

Companies hate getting a letter from regulatory agencies because it frequently has to be dealt with in part by legal, which is an expensive department to clog.

Edit: I see you are in Europe. So the above doesn’t directly apply, although there may be a regulatory agency that is equivalent that you can gripe to.

Symbiote3• 2 years ago

The option "Close Account" is halfway down the page under "Settings". So just a single press to find it after logging in.

(EU here.)

kelnos5• 2 years ago

I see you're in Europe; don't you have a regulatory body you can contact to help you deal with this? I assume account deletion is a requirement covered by the GDPR.

Symbiote3• 2 years ago

The option "Close Account" is halfway down the page under "Settings". So just a single press to find it after logging in.

(EU here.)

OJFord4• 2 years ago

Yeah good luck with that.

Threatening that (or just using keywords like GDPR) works great for most companies when you can't find it on the website or mailing list has no unsubscribe link or whatever, but you're forgetting quite how much of a scummy company PayPal is.

raytopia• 2 years ago

Are there payment companies that don't sell user's data?

usehackernews3• 2 years ago

I work in Payments.

This must be related to their new product - Fastlane.

Fastlane is an express checkout product, similar to ShopPay. Even if you have never used a website, you authenticate with OTP and all your information (Address & Payment Methods) is available.

Originally, merchants could not use this data to make customer accounts. This was not ideal for us merchants as there was no method to login to track your order information.

PayPal came to me this week saying they were updating their legal agreement to allow merchants to create customer accounts.

(Express checkout options will soon be everywhere - Stripe, Shopify, PayPal, Zelle/Paze are all competing in this space now)

kelnos5• 2 years ago

This was not ideal for us merchants as there was no method to login to track your order information.

You don't need accounts for that. Allow customers to check their order status using the order number and some other identifying bit that you are allowed to get/keep, such as last name or billing zip code. Merchants have been doing this since the very start of e-commerce. (If you can't keep anything, then just make the order numbers long random strings, and use that alone, and/or generate a random, unique URL to send in the order confirmation email.)

If a merchant creates an account for me without my consent, I delete that account and never buy from them again.

Stop abusing your customers' personal information. I'm glad I live in California, and have already opted out to PayPal sharing my information for this, as is my legal right.

hakfoo• 2 years ago

Or email them the actual tracking number.

I don't need to go to your website to read the same information as usps.com but in a different header.

usehackernews3• 2 years ago

We do allow customers to check order status based on order id. I was just using an example.

The only information paypal is sharing is name and shipping address. We’re aren’t talking significant data here.

dgregd• 2 years ago

How is that different from Apple Pay or Google Pay, where you click one button and provide all your card details to a new merchant?

usehackernews3• 2 years ago

It’s not different. It’s a direct competitor.

These new wallets are all to compete with Apple and Google Pay.

OrvalWintermute• 2 years ago

Will be axing my paypal account if this goes through

kelnos5• 2 years ago

That's not an "if". They're doing it. I'd suggest you start the deletion process now; I hear it's tricky if you live in a place without decent privacy laws.

OJFord4• 2 years ago

I've been trying for years in a place with GDPR.

sub7• 2 years ago

These asshats also have the world's worst OTP page that does not auto submit when you type out the 6 numbers and still doesn't submit on pressing Enter.

Everytime I have to move my mouse to the Submit button, I think about how their UX to nickel and dime microfees from you is super slick.

magnetowasright2• 2 years ago

Yes, it's so frustrating.

Their OTP/MFA is still not configurable, as far as I can see. When trying to figure out how to disable passwordless/OTP only log in, I saw someone trying to do the same describing how without the ability to disable OTP login, their kid logs in to their paypal by using the OTP text and they shouldn't have to delete their paypal or work around it with phone settings to have some basic security on their paypal account. It's such poor security because of spoofing attacks anyway, but anyone who knows your email and can see your phone can log in to your paypal by default. I also hate their stupid 'try another way -> sign in with password' flow on their log in. It's my password, not 'trying another way'. Ah, their UX is so bad.

javiramos2• 2 years ago

Does anyone know if Venmo has a similar policy? Lately I’ve been trying to use apple pay/cash as much as I can for peer to peer payments but Venmo is still quite popular.

javiramos2• 2 years ago

Does anyone know of a browser plugin or similar that could summarize, in real-time as I browse, a given website’s privacy and data use policy. Seems like reading through lengthy and verbose privacy policies could be great application of LLMs.

kotaKat• 2 years ago

Joke's on PayPal. I got an email that said "you can't do business with PayPal anymore" for no reason, so I guess they've got jack and shit to share from me?

PayPal (USA) will automatically share data about you to participating stores

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