Why Are American Kids So Spoiled?

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all

by jseliger • 14 years ago

115 118 14 years ago

spking• 14 years ago

It was only a century ago when the norm for American children was to receive modest gifts like paper dolls, penny candy and homemade dresses for Christmas. Nowadays, most middle class parents feel guilty if they don't cram a mountain of expensive plastic crap under the tree.

RedwoodCity2• 14 years ago

Tell kids to play with some paper dolls and see how long before they complain about being bored.

rayiner• 14 years ago

I think the whole point of the article is that kids need to learn to deal with things like being bored.

shrub• 14 years ago

I have seen children become bored with opening gifts on Christmas because there were just so many of them. From what I could gather, the family really could not afford all the gifts either (they'd be paying off their credit cards just in time for the next holiday season, maybe).

From the other side, though, I have a new niece, and my desire to shower her with gifts and things is something I struggle with. Any time I see something cute, I just want to buy it for her. I have to stop and remind myself that she's got plenty of stuff already.

It seems like a difficult thing to balance.

krschultz• 14 years ago

We really have forgotten that a pile of computer paper and a box of crayons can keep kids entertained for hours.

(Are we still allowed to give kids computer paper, or do they now sell special paper with rubber edges to prevent paper cuts?)

ekianjo5• 14 years ago

Yeah, I have heard the same thing many times: kids are often more entertained with the cardbox than the content itself :) Most of the times, gifts get abandoned after playing a few hours with them.

PaulHoule2• 14 years ago

Just try showing your child some discipline in public and somebody will drop a dime on you and you get a visit from child protective services in the next few days...

kaonashi• 14 years ago

I think you're conflating discipline with violence.

gnaritas16• 14 years ago

Sadly, that seems to be common. Is amazing how many people still believe that a kid who isn't spanked is undisciplined.

PaulHoule2• 14 years ago

Who said anything about spanking?

Just raising your voice can get you in trouble with people these days, or using any kind of physical restraint (for instance, to prevent immediate destruction of property)

TheRevoltingX• 14 years ago

Spare the rod, spoil the child I'm from El Salvador and beatings are a regular thing for us. It's normal for us to start working at 12.

Now that's the extreme, but this whole don't hit your kids movement is an epidemic.

RedwoodCity2• 14 years ago

It just takes one or two people to take the idea of physical punishment too far before people start calling for change. In the 1970's in the USA teachers were allowed to hit students. I would like to see a teacher try that now.

tsotha3• 14 years ago

I went to school back then, and the teachers weren't allowed to hit students. They could send you to the principal for corporal punishment, but his options were strictly circumscribed. His biggest weapon, in fact, was the threat of a paddling.

I can't say that's the way it was everywhere, but they didn't need to rely on that kind of thing - if you made too much trouble they would simply expel you, something I don't think happens these days.

drivebyacct22• 14 years ago

Yes, let's give up the idea of civilization. It's just much easier to inflict violence as a means of discipline and control. That doesn't have any long term psychological or behavioral impact.

Hey kids, if you don't like what someone's doing, use violence. Wonder why the world's nations' military policies are the way they are?

gnaritas16• 14 years ago

If by physical punishment you mean spanking, it's all too far. You don't need to hit your kids, ever. The ends do not justify the means.

jaggederest• 14 years ago

You know, there are ways to enforce discipline that don't require abuse.

angersock• 14 years ago

There certainly are.

However, for certain ages and situations, nothing gets the point across quite as succinctly or unambiguously as a sharp thwack or spanking.

I wouldn't, however, consider that as discipline per se--that is something that takes a larger, longer-term sort of environment and character building than fast "don't do that" punishment.

TheAmazingIdiot2• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, police abuse is the coming standard. US schools in Texas, Florida, and other states are increasing buildup of cops in k-12 schools, along with the threat of arrest and deadly force by said cops.

Class C misdeameaners are handed out in extreme regularity, with the common punishment is a fine or community service. Seems to me it's an intersection between the prison companies and school companies.

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/09/texas-police-sch...

runawaybottle• 14 years ago

I'd imagine now days the threat of taking away internet/phone is more effective.

rrggrr2• 14 years ago

Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies. Anytime I catch myself with the urge to hit I remind myself I'm a lot smarter than those little shits (whom I love immensely) and its just a matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive. The same holds true for yelling. I find that having them look in my eyes and speaking very quietly and calmly accomplishes a lot more. YMMV.

kaybe• 14 years ago

As kids we learned from that that resorting to violence is an instant loss of the fight, since even the adult would admit it. Not the worst lesson to teach, I believe.

ekianjo5• 14 years ago

Kids better take their hits from their own family first. They get used to the violence in society later this way, and get stronger through the process. I'd like to see you vindicate your view that adults raised without "physical" education end up being better adults. The trends in society certainly don't seem to indicate your are right.

As long as it's not abusive, disproportionate, and done in the proper circumstances and for the right reasons, there's nothing wrong with that.

Please note I'm not advocating beating up your child for no reason whatsoever. It should be the last resort to educate. But just like the experience of fire is necessary to fear it, the experience of authority through a variety of means has value.

larrys4• 14 years ago

"Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies."

That's very absolute a statement.

"matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive."

As you said YMMV. Children are different from not only different families but within the same family. Punishment that works with one is pointless with another.

rrggrr2• 14 years ago

@ekianjo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow metaphorically the best response to your comment on multiple levels.

@larrys Make a list of your kid's 5 favorite things. Make hitting them the sixth option. Give them authority to choose between the bad behavior or losing the items sequentially. With most kids by the time you get to item three you have compliance. No hitting required. IMHO the key is letting them choose among consequences or to pursue the behavior. Gives them independence and boundries at the same time.

artsrc• 14 years ago

> this whole don't hit your kids movement is an epidemic

I think it is a part of the "pay attention to science" epidemic, like stopping smoking, and taking lead out of petrol.

DannoHung• 14 years ago

I think your kids should hit you until you can't hit them.

Pig fucker.

tsotha3• 14 years ago

Why is the New Yorker such a terrible magazine?

tsotha3• 14 years ago

Sigh. My point was they're begging the question in a headline like that, namely "Are American kids spoiled?"

gyardley• 14 years ago

I'd love to hear some anecdotes from non-Americans currently raising kids, especially if they've also got some hands-on experience with American culture. Are American kids truly spoiled, or is the issue universal? If American kids are spoiled, what are you doing differently?

eshvk2• 14 years ago

Let me give you a South Asian one then. I was a pampered little brat who was waited on hand and foot. The only requirement be that I maintain good grades. This of course came to bite me hard when I had to live alone at the age of 16 in a totally different country and go to school. So I don't think other cultures have some magical secret sauce that turn out well behaved polite little children.

In fact, the only thing to infer from that silly article whose statistical methodology I would be extremely suspicious about, is that some individuals know how to raise their kids properly and some don't. After all, it doesn't take much to produce a child (just a few minutes of whoopee). :-)

ShabbyDoo2• 14 years ago

"I was a pampered little brat who was waited on hand and foot."

Are you a male? Were your sisters/cousins/etc. treated similarly? Just confirming my (presuming) Indian stereotypes :)

asanwal• 14 years ago

I'm a first generation American (parents immigrated) and my wife and I are currently raising our daughter in the US, and so I think I have both an American and non-American perspective to some extent. (warning: this is based on a data point of 1)

First, I do think American kids are spoiled (and I prob am spoiling my daughter no matter my desire not to). I don't think this is an American thing necessarily and prob more of a wealth/prosperity/Maslow's hierarchy thing.

My parents were the typical immigrant story. They came here with nothing, knew nobody and so they worked to make it. There wasn't time to "find oneself" or just do what makes you happy or to read about how to parent in some magazine. And so the ethos in our house was you work hard and you get what you deserve as a result. There was no tolerance for whining, entitlement and tantrums and there was an appreciation for what we had that was instilled in us. For example, I was told to only take as much as food I could eat at dinner and that I could not get up until I finished every bit of food I chose to take. I would fall asleep at the table some times eating cold food 3 hours afterwards. Not fun at the time, but there was to be an appreciation for how fortunate we are. Some might view this as draconian but it's now somewhat oddly a fond memory of mine from childhood.

But I think scarcity of resources (translation: not being wealthy/materially prosperous) doesn't allow one to be spoiled and gives one perspective which is often what seems to be lost.

Now I fast forward to today, and I see tons of parenting advice which almost tries to make parenting a paint by numbers effort, a kids culture of "everybody is a winner" and conspicuous consumption (bigger bday parties, expensive strollers, etc) that suggest to folks that good parenting is possible out of a book of academic studies, is driven by always being encouraging and giving your kid material crap. And its this cocktail of things that seems to lead to spoiled kids.

This is a stream-of-consciousness rant so apologies for that.

kika2• 14 years ago

I'm Russian, and I brought my 9 (now 11) year old daughter to the US. This process was (and somewhat still is) pretty painful for everybody, especially my wife. Russian women are often called 'sitting hens' back home because of their extreme hyper/over/megacare about all things, especially children. And the whole system is built around this - teachers don't talk to kids, they talk to parents (usually mothers), kids opinions are quickly dismissed just because they're kids "I don't care what you think, tell me what your mother says". Kids adopt to this (they're kids) and sit idle waiting for next command from the upper management. But at the end it turned out to be much easier for the daughter than to my wife. She felt like she suddenly lost control of her child - "what if she gets under the bus?!?!11 what if the will fall from the tree?!! what if she will drawn in the pool?!11", etc. My daughter adopted quickly (again, she's the kid) but in a funny fashion - she's very independent in the school and in the company of her classmates, but still very dependent at home (because it's much easier to manipulate your mother to iron your shirt than to do it yourself, you know). I can't say that American kids are specifically spoiled. There's fierce competition, who's cool and who's not. In their school it is cool to be cool AND also get into the advanced math class. Pretty tough objective, I'd say :-) Back home (we went to a very good school too) the relations between kids were much more relaxed, but there was much more physical abuse. All cultures have their benefits and drawbacks, but overall I like it here better. In particular because it's cool to be in the advanced math class :-) And because she was very disappointed to learn that there would be no advanced computer class in 6th grade. And because she wants to go to the summer camp in Stanford to learn special effects in video, etc. But I live in a pretty upscale neighbourhood, one of the best school districts in California, blah-blah. That's definitely offsets perspective.

ansgri2• 14 years ago

«very independent in the school and in the company of her classmates, but still very dependent at home» seems to be very typical of young people here in Russia, good point.

ImprovedSilence• 14 years ago

I'm an American, with no international kid raising experience. But I'd say that declaring that "All Americans are raised spoiled" is an overly broad/general. America is an ENORMOUS country. These studies seem to focus on the Urban/large metropolitan suburban families. I'd wager that the rate of spoiledness varies vastly when geographic or economic conditions are examined. Whitey McMoney from the Upper East Side is going to be raised quite a bit different from the poor black kids in Queens. Both will be way way off the mark from where a midwestern farm kid will be.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is, I think the research behind this article has too small of a sample size.

juddlyon• 14 years ago

As I read this I thought about social welfare: well-meaning and often counter-productive.

Another corollary would be dog training.

ubasu• 14 years ago

Snarky response of the day: Seems like quite the trend to compare the poor and unemployed to children and animals. ;-)

JamesLeonis• 14 years ago

I admit to being a former spoiled teenager. I didn't even do the basic things required to take care of myself (even being nagged to take a shower), nevermind the chores around the house. Now, over a decade later, I now do the things that others would consider part of being a responsible adult.

What changed? A trial-by-fire in autonomy in college that I failed.

Basically the story is that I wasn't responsible enough at the time, and it came back to bite me very hard. I returned home with my tail firmly between my legs.

But for the first time I had a taste of true freedom. No nagging, no schedules, no authorities telling me what to do. If I didn't want to go to class, nobody was going to make me. If I didn't want to do laundry, then I had a big pile of stinking clothes. If I didn't want to cook, then I spent money on eating out. I painfully learned what it took to take care of myself as an adult. Hell, I'm still learning.

Freedom is weird like that. On the one hand, it's the greatest feeling ever. The whole world feels like your oyster. On the other hand, it has a MASSIVE cost in both time and money. Rent, showering, work, food, car, gas, insurance, phone, computer, internet, etc. If you want that kind of freedom, you damn well better earn it.

Autonomy is a kind of freedom that I believe we don't give to children here in America. We don't trust them with that kind of freedom, so we swoop in and guide their every move and every minute. This is an enabling behavior because it doesn't allow for children to take responsibility, and yet we want them to magically have it. In fact, I would argue that kids don't even think about the basics because the parents magically take care of it for them, or nag them until it is done.

If we want our children to be autonomous and responsible, we need to give them the space to fail and face the intrinsic consequences of that failure without swooping in to help.

Joakal• 14 years ago

Sounds like the Montessori approach. Teachers are trained to encourage you to learn things, rather than order you to do them.

gonehome• 14 years ago

I can relate to some degree.

Parents often have good intentions, but by attempting to control everything it creates a dysfunctional environment.

moron• 14 years ago

Board an airplane in America, and all will be revealed. We are ridiculously entitled people, and by extension our children are precious special little gemstones who shouldn't have to be impinged upon by such trivial things as the entire rest of the world. I haven't spent enough time in other countries to know whether we are unique in this regard, but I know it is true for us, and it's honestly pretty disgusting to me.

adventureful• 14 years ago

If by entitled you mean enslaved, sure.

Americans are being boiled alive in the giant nanny state, and are treating their own children like the government treats them, no coincidence. Adults now rarely possess the virtues that are being questioned about the children, and that's where it stems from. Self reliance? Independence? Who needs it, the state or mommy & daddy will take care of whatever is wrong. It's the gimme gimme gimme generation, they want their cake and they want to eat it too.

Boomers were the worst generation of parents (so far) in American history. And so it passes down.

Fortunately, it's all burning to the ground and will be forced to change. Nature doesn't allow such absurdities to exist for long.

ekianjo5• 14 years ago

Haha, that was a good comment :)

> Fortunately, it's all burning to the ground and will be forced to change. Nature doesn't allow such absurdities to exist for long.

Unfortunately, it's never going fast enough. Behaviour change spans over dozens of years.

Kluny• 14 years ago

Where's this magical place where the government takes care of you? I've never been there. More like, if you get injured and can't come up with enough money, go die. If you can't afford food to eat, go die. If you can't find a job, it's cause you're lazy, go die. If you can't afford a car to get to work, we will not provide a bus, go die. What on earth are your generalizations based on?

briandear6• 14 years ago

You obviously have never been to China. Those kids, especially pre-school are indulged beyond belief thank to the one-child policy.

goodcanadian• 14 years ago

And they (particularly the boys) are referred to as "Little Emperors." The fact that they are ridiculously spoiled has not gone unnoticed over there, either.

joezydeco• 14 years ago

Just out of curiosity, what does air travel have to do with your argument? If you're going to go down the well-worn path of "babies do not belong on my airplane", we parents are well rehearsed in that song.

Alex39172• 14 years ago

If any American parent tried raising their kids like the tribe in this article they'd be immediately sent to prison, probably for several decades if not life. And if any of the kids tried acting like the kids in that tribe, they'd also get sent to prison just as fast.

warfangle• 14 years ago

Not quite as young as the kids in the article- but by age 6 I was handling a pocket knife, building camp fires (with supervision), and cooking over said camp fires (hot dogs on a stick, etc).

Alex39172• 14 years ago

Yeah, but you can't take a machete to school and build a campfire on the playground, nor can you go on vacation for a few days and leave your kids to wander around downtown LA with only a machete and some matches.

readymade• 14 years ago

Are they?

amalag• 14 years ago

A very nice article. Amongst our Indian friends it is common that NOONE hires a babysitter (that word does not exist in their dictionary), so when you invite someone, you are inviting their children and we see a lot of obnoxious children. It goes without saying that the parenting is to blame, and I think this article is right on, over emphasis on grades, softness of parents on basic things are to blame. Parents will say no, they don't mean it, and then kids learn from that. They are very clever and really take the meaning of an interaction, not just the words. Parents are a bit foolish that way to just go by the words.

josephcooney• 14 years ago

How many people on HN have kids?

numeromancer• 14 years ago

That the abused don't feel abused doesn't mean they aren't being abused. It just means they're rationalizing or denying...

There should be a name for this particular kind of ad hominim fallacy. "Fallacy of the Retreat into the Subconcious", maybe.

Eg "The fact is"---always start with "the fact is..." so that your assertions cannot be doubted---"that they are really very severely traumatized by that violent swat on the rump they got when they were three and trying to punch their mommy, even if they say they're not. They just don't realize it because it's subconscious trauma."

desireco422• 14 years ago

I get that americans enjoy this self bashing, but aside from being guilty of perpetual war, this is more of a global phenomenon.

I remember hearing how Slavic kids are being kids till late 30-ies, and pretty much it goes the same way as stories in this article. Usually parents would tell their spoiled kids in like 20-ties or so, that american parents around 16 or 18 just show their kids a door. This sounded harsh and cruel to me, as our parents would never kick us out.

Criticism in this article is spot-on, however you can't blame only americans for it, it is a symptom of different requirements life has from people in northern hemisphere or what is called western civilization.

I think it is OK to care and be affectionate with your kids, we just need find better ways of showing it.

What do you think?

ajross• 14 years ago

Yeah, I suspect "What's the matter with kids today?" is a matter of fundamental psychology.

desireco422• 14 years ago

reading through other comments and opinions, I get a sense that it might be consequence of having fewer kids

eragnew• 14 years ago

Um, because their parents spoil them?

SoftwareMaven• 14 years ago

As a parent, I look at the samples provided and think, "WTF?" At 13, your kid "might finally be able to accept the responsibility of taking the trash out"?

I love my kids, but I know a critical part of raising them is pissing them off on a fairly regular basis (also known as saying "No" :). My 13 year old daughter really likes that.

More importantly, it is better to raise them to understand their real place in the world (which is not "everybody gets a medal for participating"; I really want to punch whoever decided that was a good idea). Life is hard, people will piss on you. If you've been coddled your whole life, that is going to be a painful experience when it happens.

On the other hand, if your parents have 1) given you a strong foundation of love and self-respect and 2) positioned you to know you have to work your way up, you'll usually do OK.

(Note: I'm not saying I'm perfect. There are things I'd do differently and my fourth is getting a different parenting experience than my first, but, overall, with various crap they've all had to deal with, they are continuing to do well. So far, it's success.)

rangibaby• 14 years ago

"Americans are like a rich father who wishes he knew how to give his son the hardships that made him rich." - Frost

mixmastamyk2• 14 years ago

I encounter this attitude a lot with the local moms, including my wife.

My anecdote... our baby was a year old or so and waking up once or twice a night crying. Wet? no, hungry? We fed her a lot before going to bed, so unlikely. I recommended a few times that we let her cry herself back to sleep, and get some rest ourselves.

Barring an emergency, my philosophy is that a child will be better served in the long run by happy, well-slept parents for 16 hours a day than harried, miserable ones 24 hours a day. Pretty simple really. The wife disagreed. It wasn't until another month or two later when our old-school pediatrician recommend the same thing in different wording--"you're part of her routine," that she agreed to try.

By the second (maybe third) night the night-time crying had stopped /permanently/ and we went on to live happily ever after. Later, another mom we know was having the same problem, and my wife gave her the advice. "I don't believe he (the pediatrician) said that!" she replied incredulously...

Do you know she laid down with her son every night for an hour until he went to bed, and then got up twice a night for the last two years? (And we're the crazy ones).

There's a good bit by George Carlin called, "Child worship" that is good commentary on this mindset. The sooner it goes out of fashion, the better.

kamaal2• 14 years ago

In general that happen whens there is too much luxury. The person doesn't know the value of things, what others get after a lot of work and difficulty.

If you know how difficult it is to buy even things like food, clothing and shelter. How hard you have to work to get them, you will have a lot humility in using them. There are a lot of people in the world who would do anything just for 3 proper meals a day, a livable home, clothes to wear and some basic health care.

In my country India(People still live in subhuman conditions) and some would do anything to even have one proper meal a day. They don't have the luxury to be spoilt.

US to me looks like a land of extreme consumerism. People seem to buy all sorts of stuff, even if they have absolutely no need for it. Eating at fast food restaurants, going on vacations, changing cars every now and then, loans, debt and other spending even if you never need it at all. Also US attitude toward the rest of world is frightening to say at the least. I mean I get the patriotism, but most US politicians talk like as though any other place outside is shit. The infrastructure looks like tall buildings, clean roads and all that all designed richest people on earth.

You also have this history, bombing every other nation that says 'no' to you. Invading so many countries and mercilessly pounding them with impunity. Granting aids to other nations like you offer alms. Or having economic sanctions.

All this gives a feeling that US is some form of invincible entity whose dominance on the world scene will last till eternity. And you can do whatever you like and you have free pass.

I think all this counts and gives you a sense of extreme confidence and arrogance that you will get what you demand. And such a run will never end.

Why Are American Kids So Spoiled?

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