Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/customer-apple-store-denied-me-ipad-speaking-farsi/nPY4p/

by ghurlman • 14 years ago

131 145 14 years ago

spwert2• 14 years ago

The only person in the wrong here is the customer service representative who's violating US sanctions against Iran by selling an iPad to an Iranian citizen.

e: can't read, see below.

MartinCron3• 14 years ago

Did you miss the "Sabet is a U.S. citizen" in the article?

spwert2• 14 years ago

Whoops. Yes I did.

Turing_Machine• 14 years ago

There's no mention of her telling the clerk that she was a U.S. citizen. She told him "I'm from Iran". What's he supposed to do in that case? Can't blame him for not taking the risk. That's a serious federal law (and it's not unheard of for the feds to run sting operations, when it comes down to that).

The other guy was definitely trying to buy the device for an Iranian citizen.

appleRecist• 14 years ago

this is complete example of racism.

sohn2• 14 years ago

Or maybe elitism.

astrodust• 14 years ago

Or "eltism" to follow that example.

drivebyacct2• 14 years ago

You created an account for this? And didn't even spell racist right? Wow.

jcromartie5• 14 years ago

It's racist to jump to the conclusion that someone speaking the language of Iran might be Iranian? I'd say that's a reasonable (if incorrect) assumption to make.

Ralith4• 14 years ago

It wasn't even incorrect: her own words were "I'm from Iran." It's obvious that the Apple employee made the perfectly reasonable interpretation that this described her citizenship.

lukejduncan4• 14 years ago

It's not a reasonable assumption to make. What if I'm a first generation American and speak Farsi at home?

joelhaasnoot2• 14 years ago

Who on earth decided that when a foreign citizen is on US soil, selling to them consitutes "exporting"? What if he's a refugee or has dual citizenships?

To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general.

waterlesscloud4• 14 years ago

It sounds like these situations are more complicated than that.

http://distributioninsider.electronicproducts.com/articles/e...

"Similarly, sharing documents containing technical data with non-U.S. persons, either overseas or in the states, without export authorization would be an ITAR violation. “There are very few people who understand that an illegal export can be as simple as discussing design and technical information over lunch, if the person you are dining with is a non-U.S. person,”

mturmon• 14 years ago

Note, however, that ITAR is not the same thing as EAR.

They are two different laws pertaining to two different "export" situations (both with serious penalties for breaking).

pash• 14 years ago

> To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general.

Unfortunately not. The relevant definition of "export" is the one at Export Administration Regulations § 734.2(b)(2)(ii):

  (2) Export of technology or software. ...:
    (i)  Any release of technology or software subject to the EAR in a foreign
         country; or
    (ii) Any release of technology or source code subject to the EAR to a foreign
         national. Such release is deemed to be an export to the home country or
         countries of the foreign national. This deemed export rule does not apply to
         persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States and
         does not apply to persons who are protected individuals under the Immigration
         and Naturalization Act (8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)). Note that the release of any
         item to any party with knowledge a violation is about to occur is prohibited
         by §736.2(b)(10) of the EAR. [0]

Apple's interpretation is the one almost all export-control lawyers will give their clients and is the one the Bureau of Industry and Security will give you if you ask for clarification.

EDIT: By the way, the reason Apple won't/can't sell iPads to foreigners in the US but can sell them the same product abroad likely comes down to paperwork. I am not Apple's lawyer, but I imagine Apple exports iPads under a provision of the export-control regulations that allows export of (a great many) controlled products without needing to obtain a license so long as the use of the regulatory licensing exception is properly noted on the export documentation. But Apple's retail stores presumably are not equipped to fill out and submit those documents, so they simply won't/can't sell to foreigners.

0. http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf [PDF]

joelhaasnoot2• 14 years ago

Smartest legislation ever... (NOT) Any sane person will tell you that there's no way to police or check it. If I buy an iPad (as a Dutch citizen in the US or in the Netherlands) and happen to sell my iPad to a North Korean or Iranian, what's the US government going to do?

r00fus• 14 years ago

From your excerpt: "This deemed export rule does not apply to persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States and does not apply to persons who are protected individuals under the Immigration and Naturalization Act (8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3))."

They should have just asked for proof of permanent residence or citizenship and informed the customer that this is US export law.

3mpach3r• 14 years ago

This strikes me as interesting because I believe the article mentioned that the state department rep didn't even know that apple was doing this.

It seems a bit above and beyond to teach all of your sales personnel to distinguish Farsi from every other Middle-Eastern sounding language out there. Call me ignorant but I couldn't distinguish Farsi from Arabic even if it was written out in front of me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farsi

fleitz• 14 years ago

If you think Apple takes the law too literally you should read the SCOTUS on interstate commerce.

ThePherocity• 14 years ago

When I was working at Dell, we were told that if we shipped/sold or willing sold to someone who we suspected would sell to someone in to one of the embargoed countries, we could be personally charged and imprisoned with no amnesty.

philipbroadway• 14 years ago

This makes a lot of sense to me. If the responsibility doesn't fall on a business to not sell the technology does it fall on customs agents then to prevent the guests from leaving the country with the items? Would the guests be happier being able to purchase the tech to only be prevented from leaving the country with it? I seriously doubt it.

[edit] IMHO this has nothing to do with racial profiling, its unpleasant, but what aspect of the relationship between the US and Iran isn't?

schiffern• 14 years ago

>IMHO this has nothing to do with racial profiling

I've never been asked to produce proof of US citizenship or immigration status when I bought an iPad, let alone refused service. Do you honestly think that being a white male who speaks fluent English had nothing to do with that?

pdeuchler2• 14 years ago

Just an idiot that's part of a large corporation wrongly trying to enforce a policy that doesn't apply (and is probably not his to enforce). It is clearly not Apple's true policy, as the woman in question was eventually able to purchase her iPad online.

Regardless of the calculus behind the employee's decision, I can't help but wonder if this story would be on the frontpage if it was anyone but Apple.

TwiztidK2• 14 years ago

It's similar to how Apple takes most of the flack for human rights violations at Foxconn when many other companies (including Acer, Intel, HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc) have their products manufactured by Foxconn as well.

kevinpet2• 14 years ago

How does the policy not apply? Is Apple being irrational, or is Apple making their best effort to thread the needle between stupid laws?

pdeuchler2• 14 years ago

Because the women were U.S. citizens, rendering any law about foreign exports (and consequently foreign nationals) moot

jevinskie• 14 years ago

These crypto export laws (while better than they were in the 90s) are silly given that crypto approved for top secret material (AES with large keys) is pervasively available on the internet.

tikhonj• 14 years ago

I think this isn't about exporting cryptographic software so much as about not trading with certain countries (e.g. Iran, Cuba or North Korea) at all.

eshvk3• 14 years ago

I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

eli2• 14 years ago

No. The manager has grossly misunderstood corporate policy.

kevinpet2• 14 years ago

Has Apple said this? Or are you just guessing?

waterlesscloud4• 14 years ago

Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having contact with it.

http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf

"Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases, software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production, disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. "

Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.

eshvk3• 14 years ago

If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded. It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into. Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an electronic transaction?

rubyrescue• 14 years ago

I think this is a new apple policy. I called 1-800-MY-APPLE from Argentina and mentioned that I might want to buy an iPad and have it shipped somewhere in the US (but that I happened to live down in BA). The guy said he couldn't sell it to me and that I should hang up and call back and not mention where I live. This happened last week.

janus• 14 years ago

Just buy it from the Apple store and their website and it should work ok

mullingitover• 14 years ago

This is a fine civil rights lawsuit in the making.

yashchandra2• 14 years ago

If it is really to enforce export laws, why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ? This store should apologize and teach its employees to behave better.

k-mcgrady• 14 years ago

>> "why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ?"

Do you really want TSA going through your luggage, carry on and checked, when you fly? That would add an incredible amount of time to check in.

drostie2• 14 years ago

Uh, they do, and it has.

I was twice "randomly selected" (read: I was nearby when they were finished with whoever they were inspecting) by TSA officials before check-in, who went systematically through my to-be-checked luggage looking for things unspecified. I have also several times received rather serious-looking notes in my checked luggage stating that they had gone through my luggage behind the scenes without my consent. They also demand to see at the very least an x-ray of any carry-on luggage that I take -- including special processing for shoes, anything in my pockets, and the laptop in my bag. The last time I went to the states they took a naked photograph of me with a machine that had "X-ray vision" (though I don't know whether it was Safe Microwave or Cancer-causing X-ray style). Nominally nobody actually saw the photograph, and it identified that my ponytail (I had one at the time) was a Serious Risk worthy of further investigation.

Generally speaking one tries to be several hours early to their flight.

eigenvector• 14 years ago

US CBP routinely inspects people leaving the USA by car (entering Canada). Many items that are unregulated in the US itself (e.g. firearms accessories) are illegal to export under ITAR.

rfrey• 14 years ago

How do they do that? I've driven from the US to Canada dozens of times, and at every port I've been to the road goes directly past US customs up to Canadian customs. US customs has no opportunity to stop me coming into Canada, unless there are CBT officers in the Canadian customs booth?

lutorm7• 14 years ago

Because the "export" happens when a foreign person gets access to the material, not when they leave the country.

yashchandra2• 14 years ago

Then using this logic, why only ban iPad purchase. Why not laptops, PDA etc. Point is that it is stupid to do what this particular apple store did. They assumed that just because the person spoke foreign, they are foreigners and not US citizens.

Aleppo_Redditor2• 14 years ago

I get it, but it's still a stupid law that punishes the average iranian citizen that has nothing to do with the iranian government. I recently lost a job offer in a semiconductor company because of the deemed export law. And by "a foreign person" they actually mean chinese, iranian, syrians and cubans. Most technologies aren't restricted to most of the world including Saudia Arabia and Pakistan the origins of almost all terrorists.

jcromartie5• 14 years ago

> "Discrimination. Racially profiled. He didn't have any business asking me what country I was from"

Actually, if it would be illegal to sell the technology to an Iranian, and you're speaking the official language of Iran, then it would make a lot of sense for them to ask you if you're an Iranian citizen. Clearly the manager misunderstood and misapplied the policy, but this is not "racial profiling". It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the export law.

MartinCron3• 14 years ago

the only reasonable way to enforce the export law

That's sort of stretching the bounds of the word "reasonable" :)

The law here seems to be over-broad. Retailers should be able to sell to anyone in their stores and not be held responsible for what someone may or may not do with it once it leaves their store.

Alternatively, I guess they could do ID and background checks, handgun-shopping style.

lutorm7• 14 years ago

What they do with it once it leaves is not the concern. The mere sale of export-controlled material to a foreign person is prohibited. It doesn't matter what they would do with it, because it's the transfer of technology to them that is prohibited.

You should think of this law in the same way as the fact that you can't offer someone a job without verifying their legal work status. It's not "profiling", because it is your responsibility to ascertain that you are not breaking the law. You should positively verify this with everyone.

The problem is that the law is being applied to completely mainstream consumer items, not ballistic missile technology or something.

droithomme• 14 years ago

<strike>Selling to any customer at a store in Alpharetta, Georgia, USA is NOT "exporting to Iran", which is the actual prohibition, nor is it a reasonable interpretation of that.</strike>

edit: Guess I'm wrong, see post mentioning § 734.2(2)(ii) below.

mkaltenecker3• 14 years ago

Racial profiling is wrong even if it is effective. That is the opinion of many who are opposed to it. Just because something is effective doesn’t mean it should be done (e.g. killing every criminal is extremely effective in pushing the relapse rate all the way down).

That’s what those who respond with “But it’s effective!” to racial profiling just do not get.

jcromartie5• 14 years ago

This isn't racial profiling, though.

To clarify: racial profiling means using someone's race in place of legitimate evidence. In the case of this export rule, though, speaking the official language of an embargoed country sure sounds like legitimate reason to take further action.

Most Farsi speakers are from Iran. Most people from Iran speak Farsi. It's completely legitimate to assume that someone speaking Farsi is at least from Iran, and may reasonably be a visiting Iranian national.

The mistake in this situation was that the manager applied the rule to anybody from Iran, and ignored the person's US residence and citizenship.

lukejduncan4• 14 years ago

> It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the export law.

BS. I'd say it's more reasonable to check a billing address. Speaking the language of a country that we have export restrictions on is not a reasonable filter.

The responsibility is to not sell merchandise in Iran, not to refuse sale of merchandise in America based on nationality. Apple isn't playing the role of an exporter here.

taligent• 14 years ago

But you can pay by cash at an Apple Store so not sure how checking the billing address would work.

ktizo4• 14 years ago

It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the export law.

Only if you are being a completely stupid and bigoted bastard. Otherwise the only sane way to enforce an export law if you are a company, is to not deliver items to that country.

Everything outside that is up to governmental customs and border control and no court would enforce not selling IPads to Americans who are born in Iran and speak Farsi. Otherwise it is nothing less than apartheid.

The policy quoted states:

the exportation, sale or supply from the U.S. to Iran of any Apple goods is strictly prohibited without authorization by the U.S. government.

It does not say you are not allowed to sell them to people who speak Farsi, even if they were born in Iran. It just says that Apple is not allowed to send them out of the country. You could possibly also claim that you are not allowed to sell directly to current Iranian citizens, as they could be said to represent Iran, although this would still be reasonably open to question, especially if they have a green card, which are available to current Iranian citizens.

excuse-me6• 14 years ago

No the law says you are guilty of a federal crime if you SUSPECT that the sale would violate an export restriction.

If two white guys with snow on their boots ask "how much for the nucular wessels" you aren't to sell to them.

DrMfloss4• 14 years ago

yes if you speak Farsi and you are from Iran it is safe to say that you are an Iranian. I must also add that this girl probably speaks better English than Farsi. However to conclude that this person is buying this item to go to Iran is not a good assumption. that is like saying every Spanish speaking person that is from Cuba is going to go to Cuba in the next year or two.

chives• 14 years ago

But Farsi is spoken by millions of people who are not from Iran, many of whom are United States citizens.

So no, it wouldn't make any sense. None.

dedward3• 14 years ago

Selling something in a retail outlet in the US to a person physically there does not qualify as "exporting.". it's a nont-starter.

It is not a salesperson's job to interrogate customers to ensure their intentions are not to export things. That would be stupid.

Apple must ensure they don't export things to Iran, like other retailers....... but that means, you know, shipping stuff to iran.

pooriaazimi• 14 years ago

The U.S. holds complete embargoes against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria

The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S. Government. This prohibition also applies to any Apple owned subsidiary or any subsidiary employee worldwide.

So that's why they always completely ignore my bug reports :)

mikerice• 14 years ago

Why is this even bad? Current US - Iran relations are very bad, and are blowing up thanks to media. It's no surprise that this man doesn't want to risk losing his job.

josteink• 14 years ago

Sorry. Farsi is low class and only hipsters and rich people are allowed to buy iPads.

Edit: Jesus christ the amount of Apple apologetics in this thread. I'm out of here.

jszielenski• 14 years ago

An airline denied me boarding a flight because I had a turban on.

AsylumWarden2• 14 years ago

My wife and I were accosted and robbed at knife point in Italy because, as the mugger put it, we were American and deserved it. The cops thought it was funny. A friend of mine was arrested in Egypt back in 2009. He spent a year in prison simply because he was overheard casually mentioned to his associate that he was a Christian. I have a coworker who told me about how his laptop was confiscated on his way through the LAX airport because he used PGP encryption for his hard drive and was a foreign national working for an overseas UAV manufacturer. The list goes on and on.

jbm• 14 years ago

Your friend was arrested for being a Christian in a country with a large Christian minority? Please elaborate.

EGreg• 14 years ago

What is the point of this? The person can just call back or send someone else to buy the phone. Or refuse to answer where they are from.

If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. That would be better than penalizing people for speaking a language. Especially since they can call back.

I guess Apple is covering its ass, but the law sounds like it wouldn't be possible to perfectly enforce. Maybe it is just there to crack down on what would otherwise be Iranian citizens being won over by shiny goodness "evil" American corporations :)

Apple products arrive in Iran. Iranians start using shiny iPhones and iPads. The app store has plenty of family friendly goodies. Before they know it, they are playing angry birds and they love american stuff. Then, someone releases a "how to build green energy" app in Iran. Iran develops green sources of energy and abandons nuclear energy program. Affirms nuclear non proliferation treaty. US rejoices.

LOL

epoxyhockey• 14 years ago

If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it.

Yes! It makes me wonder if the Apple store employee used to be an ignorant TSA worker.

DrMfloss4• 14 years ago

they should just ask everyone are you going to take this to one of the restricted countries? Yes or NO

THE END

excuse-me6• 14 years ago

Download a mouse driver from Dell and it asks you if you are going to use it to design weapons of mass destruction!

beedogs2• 14 years ago

Or they could stop pretending an iPhone is some sort of weaponizable supercomputer.

waterlesscloud4• 14 years ago

News video here, including interviews with two of the people mentioned in the article.

http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customer...

ctdonath2• 14 years ago

Not long ago, the same store suffered a break-in attempt. Some guys in another state wanted bail money for their buddy, so they drove several hours to this store, waited 'til after hours, smashed a mall window, crawled in, and tried without luck to break into the Apple store. Turns out the stores, despite having lots of glass, are built like bank vaults.

duiker101• 14 years ago

...and...how is this related to this story? Also it's something that you would expect from a store that has several thousands of dollars in it...

ctdonath2• 14 years ago

It's related for being the same store, which I care about because I visit it on a regular basis.

Not often does one store make the news multiple times in a short period.

dsk2012• 14 years ago

I'm so happy that between us and them, stands a low-wage retail Apple employee.

kitsune_2• 14 years ago

So much for hiring "geniuses"...

njloof• 14 years ago

Not a lot of geniuses in Alpharetta, Georgia, it seems...

accountswu• 14 years ago

What should the people of Iranian origin do to make it easy for Apple Nazis? Put a star of David or a crescent on their clothes before they enter the store?

raffi• 14 years ago

As someone who just retained legal help in this area, export control is not as simple as many of you make it out to be. An export happens when material ends up in the hands of a foreign national, whether it's inside the border or not. Businesses have an obligation to "know their customer" and look out for "red flags". I'm not an expert in this area. It's just as I have had to delve into it, it's nowhere near trivial or as easy to deal with as you might think. Oh and the fines for being wrong (even if you self report) can be very very hefty.

Quizzy2• 14 years ago

The "fines for being wrong" can also include lawsuits when you inappropriately reject a customer because what your salesperson thought was Farsi turns out to be some Indian dialect because he's simply bad at recognizing languages and was recently reprimanded for his failure to recognize Farsi, so now he's more likely to commit a false positive due to paranoia. Good luck with that lawsuit.

TwiztidK2• 14 years ago

In this case:

Woman: (Speaks Farsi)

Apple: Excuse me, but which language were you speaking?

Woman: "Farsi, I'm from Iran." (Direct quote)

Huh, it is pretty ambiguous where she is from.

DrMfloss4• 14 years ago

What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language. Iranian people are proud people just like Irish, Italians, and Cuban’s. I have many friends that were born in U.S but if you ask them what language you are speaking they will tell you “oh it’s Spanish, I am Cuban” because they are proud of their nationality. Same thing with the girl, the man asked what language she was speaking and she said Farsi (but most people do not know what language Farsi is) so she added I am from Iran. This girl could have even been born in the U.S. The Correct way to approach this would have ben to ask more questions. Like how long have you lived in the U.S.? are you Planning on going back anytime in the future? As a matter of fact they should ask everyone this question. Are they planning to Travel to any of the restricted countries in the near future? Because anyone can be shipping this highly sensitive material overseas to anyone of the restricted countries.

scott_meade• 14 years ago

"What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language." That sure is how the article makes it seem. And that sure would be wrong of Apple.

Yet the customer was planning to send the iPad to Iran and I wonder if that intention didn't some how come out in conversation such that the Apple employee knew of that intention? It would be interesting to have more details and it's difficult to tell when we have only the customer's recollection of events. It will be interesting to hear Apple's response.

joeblau2• 14 years ago

Per Apples policy, it seems like all she has to do is get authorization from the U.S. Government.

tshtf• 14 years ago

Since when to U.S. citizens need a government authorization to buy a computer?

joeblau2• 14 years ago

I don't know, read the law that Apple is citing. Apparently, it has to do with relation to Iran, Cuba, and North Korea.

Splines• 14 years ago

Export laws seem like security theater - it doesn't actually help, and only catches honest people.

If you're from a country that is embargoed, and you need computing power for some nefarious reason, I'm certain you'll find a way. Going to your local apple store dressed in your native clothing while speaking your native language isn't in your game plan.

lightyrs2• 14 years ago

The real story here is the U.S. law — I'm a citizen and I must say, this is shameful. This read like a really bad Onion article.

lightyrs2• 14 years ago

The idea that Iran is a real threat to the United States and its allies is an Oceania-esque farce. Our country is in an economic war with China, being fought via proxy economic and media battles with Iran and its allies. This law is disgraceful.

noonespecial• 14 years ago

What they should think about doing is refusing to sell to anyone from that wacky district in east Texas that's causing all of the patent troll messes.

Now that would benefit the country more than some goofy ethnic profile rule.

briandear• 14 years ago

Except there's no law against selling to Texas. Your logic is flawed.

chawco• 14 years ago

> The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran.

I'm guessing they may have mentioned this fact, which would have made it illegal to sell to them due to the export ban.

aGoodperson2• 14 years ago

you could always go back and not have to worry about the apple store employees, because there are non back in iran.

aGoodperson2• 14 years ago

Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

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