GM to Cut More Than 1k Software Engineers, Mostly in US

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-19/gm-to-cut-more-than-1-000-software-engineers-mostly-in-the-us

by 1vuio0pswjnm7 • 2 years ago

64 118 2 years ago

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practicemaths• 2 years ago

In a time when cars are increasingly more connected than ever. More sensors and controls. Literally more software in cars today than ever before and they do this?

I suspect this a poor move on GM's part.

sneed_chucker• 2 years ago

Par for the course. Have you driven a modern GM vehicle? Full of issues and borderline worthless once the warranty is up.

Really great company that the tax payer was forced to rescue.

notyourwork3• 2 years ago

GM repaid all the debt given during the rescue, please don’t conflate a bail out with the companies poor decisions.

SkyPuncher5• 2 years ago

The remaining legacy, domestic auto manufacturers are just kind of circling the drain. They all have stupid problems and largely seem to have ridden the coat tails of an older generation that vowed to buy American.

Anecdotally, but my Ford F-150 has so many software bugs it’s insane. It’s mechanically reliable, but the software is terrible.

* backup sensor don’t work about 10% of the time

* backup camera won’t engage about 1% of the time

* main screen will boot loop a few times before it fully turns on about 5% of the time

* heated and cooled seats seem to choose random setting when the car is remote started.

* lane centering system will crash if you try to take it through a turn that’s too tight. Have to turn the vehicle off, open the door to fix it.

* my trailer system won’t remember custom made trailers. I don’t really have a use for the system, but annoying none the less.

* auto power folding mirrors often get confused about their state when shutting down or starting the car up. Annoying, but easily fixed.

* my digital instrument panel will occasionally not turn on

* my digital instrument panel will occasional forget all of my custom settings. Different problem than above.

* Not really a bug, but the car has soooooooooo many popup notifications. There will literally be status messages that are overlaid by an almost identical, but different message. Thank you, F-150, I know that I plugged my cooler into the outlet in the bed. Please stop asking me if I want the generator on. The car is running, I want the generator on.

The physical vehicle is rock solid and I’m extremely happy with that. However, I just want to rip out all of the electronics and replace them with the magic that Kia/Hyundai built in their vehicle.

I largely get this impression anytime I step into an American vehicle. It feels like it was designed by a committee of out of touch executives.

SoftTalker3• 2 years ago

The sensors and controls are made by companies like Bosch. GM doesn't need any expertise in this stuff, they just buy parts from companies that have it.

greenthrow2• 2 years ago

Have you ever written integration software?

AlotOfReading3• 2 years ago

Not true. A few exceptional vendors like Bosch excepted, manufacturers are increasingly in-sourcing development away from the tier suppliers. It's a lot of work managing them to get quality outcomes and that system has repeatedly bitten manufacturers hard in the past decade. It also lengthens development timelines significantly and raises the cost of mid-development changes, when they actually need faster, more responsive development practices.

The issue with companies like GM is that while most people recognize what I've just said internally, there's a lot of conflict between traditional management processes/styles/cultures and the changes they need to make to adapt. These kinds of layoffs tend to result from the financial fragility they've built up. When some minor event puts clouds on the financial horizon, management only understands one tool to make changes and that's layoffs/pay cuts.

IncreasePosts• 2 years ago

Cutting 1000 software engineers doesn't necessarily mean they won't be needing the services of 1000 software engineers. They could just be moving to contract out the work instead of having more in-house staff.

gjsman-1000• 2 years ago

Maybe we should have talent tariffs. Hiring overseas? 50% tariff. Watch employers “suddenly” find qualified talent at home.

happytoexplain• 2 years ago

Please, please disagree with this comment instead of downvoting it. As a normal person, I have no idea if there is a good counterargument, or if the downvoting is just kneejerk politics or a disapproval of tone.

dotnet00• 2 years ago

A 50% tariff on foreign workers means you're forcing companies to pay employees in other countries much more than in the US. They obviously aren't just going to shut down their international presence, so that's just transferring money from the US to these other countries. Since the companies would just raise prices in the markets that can most afford it (ie the US), and use those to offset the increased costs elsewhere.

If they're referring to hiring immigrants in the US, it's still kind of the same thing. A 50% tariff on immigrant employees means it's cheaper to just outsource, so now all that money is just going outside. On the other hand, the money the immigrant employee makes is mostly being spent within the US.

If you wanted to limit the ability of companies to pay immigrant workers less, you'd be better off making the initial immigration process harder, but the immigration to permanent residency process faster, that way fewer skilled immigrants get in, but once in they're not exploitable for very long. Since they can't easily import more workers, they're forced to deal with everyone at an equal level.

If you want to limit outsourcing, you'd have to start with onshoring the supply chain and either encourage automation or provide an incentive strong enough to keep those companies globally competitive.

nothercastle• 2 years ago

Didn’t they also go with a plan to cut CarPlay and android auto. Seems like they are on track to shittify and get left behind

notyourwork3• 2 years ago

Personally, I will not buy a car without CarPlay goi g forward. I assume for most that’s close to a deal breaker.

indemnity• 2 years ago

I thought so too, but to be honest I haven’t missed it too much in my Tesla. It already covers my streaming music use cases, and built in navigation is good enough.

SoftTalker3• 2 years ago

I'd buy a car without it in a heartbeat. Preferably one without any screens at all. I know this is wishful thinking.

spencerchubb• 2 years ago

I had it installed in my 2014 mitsubishi. I can't imagine not having it

0cf8612b2e1e• 2 years ago

Not that I think this is a Twitter-in-a-weekend project, but… what is a car infotainment system doing?

Show a map, working Bluetooth drivers (obviously the white whale of the modern world), control a music playlist, and route a phone call. Aren’t there already standard protocols to communicate with a phone for all of these things already?

devbent• 2 years ago

Auto adjusting other parts of the car based on what is happening, e.g. my car reduces fan speed when a call comes in.

Typically cars come with their own complete voice control system.

Customers expect much of the car to be accessible remotely and well, my GM Bolt EUV is far behind everyone else in this regard.

shiroiushi4• 2 years ago

Didn’t they also go with a plan to cut CarPlay and android auto. Seems like they are on track to shittify and get left behind

No, this isn't the case at all. To enshittify (you forgot the "en") means to get worse over time, as a result of poor management decisions that seek to increase profits. It implies that there was a time before, when the thing was actually good. But this is GM here: it's been making terrible cars for many decades now. I don't really see how it can enshittify.

pstrateman• 2 years ago

I'm sure their outsourcing will go differently to every other outsourcing operation.

sebazzz• 2 years ago

I think it will confirm the same.

upon_drumhead• 2 years ago

The moves come two months after former Apple Inc. executives David Richardson and Baris Cetinok were promoted to senior vice president roles in the group

I wonder if they're doing this to just move the jobs to the Bay Area.

hipadev232• 2 years ago

They're laying off engineers in Michigan and overseas to move jobs to the Bay Area? You're going to have to connect the dots for me on this one.

fma3• 2 years ago

Connect the dots as in why it makes sense? Or provide evidence? I can't tell you why it would make sense to the executives, but below are job searches for keyword software. You can yada yada and say maybe it's fake postings in which case I'm not sure what to say - but it's well known internally GM wants to expand the Mountain View office.

42 jobs listed in Mountain View https://search-careers.gm.com/en/jobs/?search=software&locat...

6 in Detroit https://search-careers.gm.com/en/jobs/?search=software&locat...

16 in Austin https://search-careers.gm.com/en/jobs/?search=software&locat...

tims33• 2 years ago

Probably just increasing the number of Accenture and Infosys offshore engineers and H1Bs they're using. Most of these jobs are probably old school IT.

CydeWeys7• 2 years ago

Highly doubt it. That would increase their labor costs; they were already set up well with having those SWEs in Michigan.

al_borland2• 2 years ago

So they can pay more per employee to account for the higher cost of living and competition in tech? How is that the move?

It also seems like designing the hardware and software in the same place would be useful, so it actually feels like they were designed to go together.

AlotOfReading3• 2 years ago

Automakers already have satellite offices in major tech areas. Toyota, Mercedes, GM, Ford, and Kia/Hyundai all have bay area offices that mainly cater to software people already. I know this layoff affected the Austin GM office too.

The hardware design is done by geographically separated teams for various reasons, often in multiple countries. You just ship the hardware where it needs to go, which you have to do anyway to get it from the factory to an office building.

greenthrow2• 2 years ago

Companies have been really hammering software engineers with layoffs, but the need for software to be written has only been increasing. I think the execs at these companies have been snowed over by Copilot demos and vastly overestimate the productivity gains it can realize.

cyberax4• 2 years ago

A big brain move. First, they cut CarPlay/Android Auto because they want to provide a full custom experience. Second, they fire the people who are supposed to be responsible for that experience.

initplus• 2 years ago

More engineers doesn't automatically mean better software. Sometimes the opposite.

CydeWeys7• 2 years ago

Large-scale layoffs almost never means better software though.

e3bc54b2• 2 years ago

Layoffs almost always mean the few engineers that can do better than more engineers are on the way out, if not via layoffs, then voluntarily.

gedy• 2 years ago

I'd venture a company like GM would just try and replace them with as many third party contractors or outsourced vendors, and not actually "slim the team down", etc

suyash2• 2 years ago

Exactly twitter was the biggest proof of that.

technick• 2 years ago

We need some laws that will prevent companies from outsourcing those positions for up to 36 months after laying off Americans.

dexwiz• 2 years ago

Out sourcing can predate the layoff. You gotta train the new people before you let go of the old.

baron816• 2 years ago

When you do this kind of stuff, you make American companies less competitive as a whole. If GM can get as good software for cheaper by outsourcing (granted, they almost certain cannot), then they should do it because that might help save tens of thousands of other jobs within the company and broader economy. The government should not generally be in the business of telling companies how to build software.

lispisok• 2 years ago

What if the money saved isnt used to help save thousands of other jobs but makes its way up to the C suite compensation?

pylua• 2 years ago

I don't agree with this. The US government needs to encourage an economic structure that is best for US citizens. The company is not looking to save other jobs, but rather to increase their profits for stakeholders. Other industries are highly regulated, such as Medicine, Law, or otherwise have tariffs that combat against this. This is also a slap in the face to the US citizens that bailed out the company previously.

Literally everything that does not require a US stamp or certification is being outsourced. Mechanical Engineering, Civil Engineering, non-software architecture, customer support, project management, and even accounting. This is not good for the US as a country. American workers are not competitive right now, unfortunately, considering the high cost of living and strength of the dollar. Also, American workers will find it hard to get a work visa in a very low cost of living country if they do wish to pursue a career where their field has been outsourced.

taeric2• 2 years ago

I have a slightly contra view here. Conway's law means you often ship your engineering structure in your code. As such, larger dev teams will necessitate more modules. This will lead to more code and to more bugs

Some modularity is desired. Enough to support a thousand devs? Hard to say.

AlotOfReading3• 2 years ago

Don't take this as defending specific headcounts, but rather a response to the general idea. Modern vehicles have probably the highest inherent complexity of any thing most people regularly interact with. These are heavily regulated, safety critical electro-pneumo-mechanical distributed systems built to survive decades of severe conditions and piecemeal maintenance by the kind of people who work at jiffy lube.

Every one of those attributes adds an order of magnitude to the headcount. There's simply no option to do small teams that might escape Conway's law. Sometimes I'm amazed cars work at all.

taeric2• 2 years ago

Yeah, this is why I said some modularity is desired. You also should want stability in ways our industry just doesn't.

Large teams churn in ways smaller teams don't. Competing teams, as the different product teams almost certainly are will be different.

gsky• 2 years ago

Thanks to 3hour workday videos, now everyone thiks that Software engineers are lazy and unproductive

postalrat• 2 years ago

If you are hiring remote workers why choose the ones that cost more?

gkuhl21• 2 years ago

We need better bike infrastructure, like everywhere. Let's spur some competition in that area, so we can cook ourselves more slowly by taking cars off the road, and also let the invisible hand of the market take GM out of business.

FMecha• 2 years ago

The government wouldn't let GM go out of business for the same reason they wouldn't let Intel met the same fate - even from said invisible hands.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

Err.. fix the Google cache link. Did you do that to get around the earlier submission? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41291031

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-19/gm-to-cut...

[dupe] either way

Some more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41290899

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41290795

1vuio0pswjnm7• 2 years ago

"Software is eating the world"

dzonga• 2 years ago

my friend is a tech lead at GM - his biggest complaint, working with people without adequate basic skills.

fma3• 2 years ago

I guess your friend must be disappointed to find out the layoff wasn't a performance based layoff.

gaws• 2 years ago

working with people without adequate basic skills.

like what, exactly?

SkyPuncher5• 2 years ago

I know some good software engineers at GM, but it’s simply not a place that attracts top tier talent.

Why work at GM, as a second rate employee (physical engineering is first tier) for much lower than what you make at basically any tech company.

GM to Cut More Than 1k Software Engineers, Mostly in US

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