My cat water fountain comes with a spicy USB power adapter

https://ounapuu.ee/posts/2023/12/19/spicy-usb-adapter/

by hddherman • 3 years ago

336 303 3 years ago

This is the sort of thing that almost (but not quite) pushes me to support mandatory certification (enforced by patents/other IP protections) for consumer devices that use a familiar connector like USB.

Consumers shouldn’t need to worry about the specific output voltage; the presence of a USB-A connector should indicate that it abides by the specification.

The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this, but poor interoperability is such a pain that it would be nice to have stronger guarantees.

yreg• 3 years ago

Yes, mandating this on consumer devices is quite sensible.

At least adhere to the spec to such a level that it won't destroy other hardware.

can16358p• 3 years ago

I think when it comes to safety restrictions should be there. The hacker in me hates it too but just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V.

Many applicances would break, or perhaps even catch fire.

If there were many different USB-A devices and people were used to checking the voltage output before plugging, that might not be needed, but since probably none of us check for a USB-A port to see if it outputs 7.5V, it better be mandatory to be certified.

Though, maybe it is, but still those cheap Chinese adapters slip away.

nicolaslem3• 3 years ago

From my experience appliances tolerate a wide range of voltages. The outlets in my house routinely deviate from the standard 230V, with the lowest I have seen at 170V and highest at about 260V. I have not had any appliance malfunction.

Edit: I am not advising anyone to deliberately do stupid things, simply mentioning that from my experience the builtin margin is fairly large.

cesarb7• 3 years ago

just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V.

We have something like that here in Brazil. On cities which use 127V as the standard voltage (some cities use 220V), you can get 220V by using a pair of phases instead of a phase and the neutral, and it's common to find a few standard-looking sockets which are 220V instead of 127V. They might be colored red, they might have a yellow sticker saying "220V" next to it, or they might be completely unmarked. If your device is 127V only, or it has a manual 127V/220V switch which is on the 127V position, and you plug it into one of these 220V sockets, it will be damaged.

(The standard we use for consumer AC power plugs and sockets, NBR 14136, does not make a distinction between voltages; the same plugs and sockets are used for both 127V and 220V.)

kayfox• 3 years ago

just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V.

Every once and a while an electrician wires up standard US outlets to 480v 3-phase instead of 208v 3-phase, so you end up with an outlet designed for 120v that puts out 277v.

Sometimes noone notices because the switching power supplies plugged into them are just fine with this.

baq2• 3 years ago

The hacker in me hates it too but just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V.

Overvoltage is now routine in places where there's lots of PV installed in homes and not enough load nearby.

If you live in such a place, you have a deep appreciation of varistors and should have either good insurance or a little bit of soldering skills... preferably both.

wiredfool• 3 years ago

It's got a CE mark, but it's unclear if it's valid or not. This is a mandatory certification in the EU, like the UL listing in the US.

The device is specifying the output voltage, which isn't in spec for the connector, but it is (apparently) accurate.

currency3• 3 years ago

There's a deceptively similar mark that stands for China Export and does not indicate EU certification[0].

[0]https://www.kimuagroup.com/news/differences-between-ce-and-c...

lxgr8• 3 years ago

Fair point, but given that some manufacturers have no problem at all to just blatantly use brand names without permission, having a CE mark is unfortunately not a sure sign that a device has ever been inside a certification lab…

jdboyd• 3 years ago

UL isn't actually mandatory in the US. The only thing mandatory that I am aware of is FCC certification for devices with signals over a certain number of Hz, and they wouldn't care about a USB port being abused.

jeroenhd3• 3 years ago

Anyone can stick a CE sticker onto their products. It's a self certification mark, and I've never heard of a company ever getting in trouble over this stuff. All it says is "I promise to follow the CE rules" but there are no mandatory audits or anything, unless a company gets found out to be violating the spec.

I don't think the CE mark protects consumers the way it could decades ago, with international imports taking a few seconds and free postage to boot.

pjc50• 3 years ago

It's mandatory to have the CE mark.

It's a self-certification. You can decide how much that's actually worth for non-EU vendors.

ForOldHack• 3 years ago

The device is specifying the output voltage, in very black, very tiny letters. How convenient. The person who took this almost impossible photograph should get a Pulitzer. No quantitative measurement for the real voltage, or current for that matter.

https://donglec.com/blogs/journal/are-third-party-chargers-h...

thriftwy3• 3 years ago

Why not have efficient law and just sue large sums out of misbehaving manufacturers? Then you no longer punish the innocent.

lxgr8• 3 years ago

If you can get a hold of the manufacturer, sure. But don’t count on Amazon or other marketplaces helping you with that: They’re not a reseller, as they’ll be happy to tell you; no liability! (And no responsibility for collecting customs payments either.)

ricardobeat2• 3 years ago

That CE marking on the adapter is probably fake - how would it have passed certification while outputting a voltage 50% higher than spec?

jeroenhd3• 3 years ago

All the CE marking indicates is that the product complies with European specifications. As far as I know, there are no EU/EEA specifications regarding the voltage of an USB port.

This may violate the USB spec and burn out phones, but it's not necessarily undeserving of the CE mark.

lucideer2• 3 years ago

mandatory certification (enforced by patents/other IP protections)
The hacker in me hates the idea

If the hacker in you really hates this, then why insist on enforcing via means that restrict both vendor and user freedom (IP) instead of regulatory enforcement that exclusively targets vendors & leaves hackers free to hack?

thriftwy3• 3 years ago

Hackers want not just hack for themselves but share the product of their craft with other parties without going through fences.

denotational4• 3 years ago

What would the regulatory enforcement look like?

If I develop a new connector, how do I get the regulator to start enforcing that everyone who uses it is following my standard?

What happens when I find a way to extend the specification in a safe, backwards compatible manner, but this conflicts with the standard as enforced by the regulator?

I’m not saying that these are insurmountable problems, but I feel like the regulator should focus on issues such as safety, and interoperability should be enforced by the company/consortium that develops the standard in the first place.

ReptileMan• 3 years ago

I don't see how making sure that when something looks and quacks like a duck is actually a duck conflicts with the hacker ethos. The more standardized things are - the easier it is to build something. I love that I can take any combination of DIN parts and suppliers and know they will play nicely. Also there are a lot of standardized higher voltage connectors. this case is incompetence or negligence from manufacturer - and those are against everything hacking is about

yjftsjthsd-h2• 3 years ago

I think the thing that would let me stomach it is 1. Only legally mandating it for consumer devices / sold on the open market / commercial entities manufacturing it, or whatever the sensible way to structure that sentiment is, and 2. USB supports negotiating higher power settings, so you're not artificially limiting what's possible, just enforcing a safe worst case. If you need some USB connector that carries a kW you can theoretically still do that, you just have to not default to putting 100+ volts across the power pins the moment the thing is plugged in.

verandaguy2• 3 years ago

Re: 2: as you likely already know, this is a (major, pretty well thought out) part of newer usb standards. Unfortunately there’s no realistic way to backport this to older usb accessories. You can’t push an OTA update to the author’s wall wart.

gumby• 3 years ago

The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this, but poor interoperability is such a pain that it would be nice to have stronger guarantees.

For pure consumer products (whatever that means) safety standards are quite reasonable. There are already legal requirements in the USA that plugs have certain shapes controlling orientation, grounding, and expected voltage, as well as building code so that people don’t trip over long power cables. Food safety means you can pick up something at the shop and have some faith it won’t kill you.

This reduces cognitive overhead and doesn’t require you to be an expert in every domain.

It also doesn’t stop you from hacking your own stuff (mostly — please don’t mix ammonia and bleach!) and easily provides you a bunch of dependable items on which you can build your hacks. So you can (briefly!) supply 100 amps of 240V AC over USB A at home if you want, you just can’t sell it. You can make yoghurt at home and store it on the counter in the sun if you want, no problem.

avgcorrection• 3 years ago

It’s difficult enough to figure out which side goes up. I can’t worry about this as well.

maxerickson• 3 years ago

USB does control use of their marks, it would probably be new law to prevent use of the physical arrangement.

denotational4• 3 years ago

new law to prevent use of the physical arrangement

Even if the connector itself were patented?

insanitybit• 3 years ago

The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this

As long as you are free to modify the hardware or purchase specific non-conforming hardware I see no reason why this would be painful for a hacker.

alexpotato• 3 years ago

pushes me to support mandatory certification

It wasn't mandatory but this is one of the main reasons Underwriter's Laboratory was started. The market needed a certification to say "yes, this things does what it's says it does and in a safe manner".

My dad owned a retail store in the 1970s and he distinctly remember being told "Lots of retailers won't carry a brand/item unless it has the 'UL' sticker on it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_(safety_organization)

latchkey• 3 years ago

These days, any thing can have any sticker.

zwirbl• 3 years ago

Would this be comparable to a CE marking in Europe or more like a TÜV certification?

dsmmcken• 3 years ago

You can find many fake "UL certified" products on Amazon, with a counterfeit UL logo and all. I think the problem is companies like Amazon not being held liable for what they sell.

beej71• 3 years ago

OTOH we have tons of crazy non-usb transformers with all kinds of different plugs that might or might not plug into devices they're meant for.

It seems like somehow we're used to the idea that this particular plug will only work with the device that came with it, but we assume that USB-A is USB-A. I know I do.

This does make me wonder about the USB adapter I got with my dash cam. The documentation says all over the place to pretty please with sugar on top use our adapter. I'll have to stick a meter on it. [Edit: 5.1v.]

dehrmann• 3 years ago

It's not just USB-A. You can assume your US-style wall outlet is ~115 V, 60 Hz. Cigarette lighters in cars are 12-ish V.

creaturemachine• 3 years ago

It's likely that they are trying to avoid support calls from users plugging into whatever USB port is on their dash that might not supply enough current, or is intended for media/AA/Carplay and forcing the camera into interfacing with the infotainment system.

jayd16• 3 years ago

Mandatory how? Won't they just ship an uncertified adapter anyway?

denotational4• 3 years ago

Patent the connector and enforce it aggressively.

JohnFen• 3 years ago

The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this

Why? I'm not sure what being a hacker has to do with it, but this sort of thing would benefit everybody and harm nobody except for the negligent.

rollcat4• 3 years ago

This.

Nintendo comes to mind; charging the Switch (the earlier models IIRC) with a third-party adapter was a lottery, and the losing prize was a fried console.

They've been guilty of this practice for as long as they've been making electronics - I think it was the NES or the SNES that used a standard barrel jack and voltage, but reversed the polarity, with no circuit to protect the console.

Also - using Ethernet ports/cables for serial console access is not even evil, it's just stupid. Granted the switches/routers that do this are not exactly SOHO equipment, but you need to let students in a lab near that, and it's just asking for trouble.

tivert• 3 years ago

They've been guilty of this practice for as long as they've been making electronics - I think it was the NES or the SNES that used a standard barrel jack and voltage, but reversed the polarity, with no circuit to protect the console.

Is there actually a standard about that? IIRC, recently things have drifted towards "center positive" as customary, but most adapters and devices have the little diagram about how they're wired for a reason.

duskwuff• 3 years ago

Nintendo comes to mind; charging the Switch (the earlier models IIRC) with a third-party adapter was a lottery, and the losing prize was a fried console.

The problem you're thinking of was caused by a Nyko third-party docking station with a faulty hardware implementation of USB-PD. While Nintendo's software implementation of USB-PD was flawed in some ways, it didn't cause this problem.

I think it was the NES or the SNES that used a standard barrel jack and voltage, but reversed the polarity, with no circuit to protect the console

There is, sadly, no "standard" polarity for barrel power jacks. Center-positive and center-negative are both fairly common.

NoMoreNicksLeft• 3 years ago

Could that ever really help? The vast majority of devices do this correctly, even from the cheap, nameless manufacturers cranking stuff out for sale in marginal retail outlets. I suspect even if there was some sort of legislation or accountability that this particular culprit would have pulled the same stunt. They'd have relied on the fact that it's difficult to track down who manufactured the item, that there'd be little incentive to do so by anyone who became aware of it, and that they'd be safe from repercussions across some international border.

I think your initial instinct is right.

eternityforest2• 3 years ago

I'd rather see specific laws against bad voltages on USB.

Isn't there already some law somewhere against things that are so obviously not what a consumer would expect?

p0w3n3d• 3 years ago

I have the same fountains and I have already roasted an iPad charger on it fountain (I used the charger because it had possibility to connect cable to it instead of plugin directly to the socket). One day it just went out and burnt a little.

From that time I tend to use the provided one, but I never noticed it provides a different voltage. Thanks for the warning

londons_explore4• 3 years ago

An official Apple iPad charger wouldn't fail in this case - it has protection against basically anything on the output side - from short circuits to big back-EMF spikes.

3rd party ones on the other hand....

homefree2• 3 years ago

This is the reason I only use apple chargers for charging everything.

h2odragon2• 3 years ago

I wouldn't trust the writing on it; either.

syx• 3 years ago

I noticed something similar to this on my Insta360 ONE X charger. Initially I thought I could just use any USB power adapter but after many tries it turned out that the vendor implemented their own voltage on their charger sold separately. Quite a disappointment as charger broke after two years.

PetitPrince• 3 years ago

For what it's worth, I can charge my X3 (same camera, two generations later) with all the USB-C charger I tried (laptop charger, phone charger, car adapter). USB-C helps, I guess (One X is micro-usb).

bArray2• 3 years ago

To be completely fair, those power banks should have a diode (or some protection circuitry) to prevent their damage. A loose cable could easily put higher voltage on the port than 5.25V.

That said, what an awful USB port to come across. A little reading wouldn't have gone amiss though. My natural reaction would have been to assume it was an output, not an input.

lxgr8• 3 years ago

A diode doesn’t protect from over-voltage; that requires more complicated circuitry as far as I understand.

And how would a loose cable cause a voltage spike?

cjwoodall• 3 years ago

TVS diodes can protect from transient voltage spikes when used properly (low impedance to the input connector, properly chosen and with the proper supporting circuitry)

Zener diodes can temporarily protect an overvoltage too but you will need something to take all that current that is now going through it, making it pretty hot and likely to fry something

You can pair something like this with a positive temperature coefficient thermistor to act as a fuse (as it gets hotter the resistance goes up).

These circuits are tricky to tune right, take up space and can add significant cost to a product. So with a drive in consumer products to lower cost smaller things you may not see them everywhere.

KaiserPro• 3 years ago

perhaps a they meant a zener diode, which can be used to clamp a voltage? The downside being that it dissipates the excess energy across it's self.

how would a loose cable cause a voltage spike?

From the top of my flu-y head, connecting and disconnecting an inductive load (like a motor) can cause spikes. However in USB land, that's pretty rare.

dc-dc step up devices use an oscillator to charge and discharge an inductor to achieve a certain voltage increase. They _could_ be noisy when starting up, or have transient load.

kccqzy• 3 years ago

I recently found a Huawei-branded power bank that outputs 9V over USB-A. See https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000209696496.html and look at the label on the seventh picture.

EDIT: I may be wrong. Apparently this is now allowed by the Quick Charge spec. See comments below.

mciancia• 3 years ago

That might be within some quickcharge specs and it won't output 9v by default

notRobot• 3 years ago

Yes, I can confirm those are standard quickcharge specs.

chedabob• 3 years ago

That looks like a proprietary version of Quick Charge, which has a negotiation step before the alternate voltage is enabled. From that murky period where everyone was tacking on all sorts of protocols to get more than 5V/0.5A from a USB-A port.

justsomehnguy2• 3 years ago

Yes, it's clearly marked as 5v/9v, so it is capable of 9V, not the only one voltage.

Ekaros• 3 years ago

I also applaud who ever came up with 2 strand wire with USB-A at other end and USB-C at other...

ipsum2• 3 years ago

Seems pretty secure to me.

londons_explore4• 3 years ago

9v or 12v over USB-A is reasonably common here in Asia... You always need to check the voltage rating before randomly plugging stuff in if it isn't from a big manufacturer.

For example, the handwarmers I'm using right now are USB-A at 12 volts, but have a dial to adjust the voltage up and down between 0 volts and 12 volts to adjust the temperature (I think it's actually PWM on the 12v power lines, but haven't actually checked).

5.5V or 6V is also common because it lets you use thin cheap wires which remove about a volt and still can fast charge phones (which tend to be picky and will drop back to 500mA charging if the voltage droops).

Big manufacturers also use non-5V over USB sometimes, but you need to send a special message to enable higher voltages, so it's safe to plug them into anything. Still troublesome if you're using a USB Y-splitter or multi-headeded cable.

rahimnathwani• 3 years ago

Where in Asia? I lived in China from 2010 to 2019 and the only voltages I've seen on USB A ports is ~5V and ~4.2V. The latter on the charger for some rechargable bicycle lights.

londons_explore4• 3 years ago

Thailand

NotYourLawyer• 3 years ago

That’s terrible. Why don’t they just use a barrel plug?

londons_explore4• 3 years ago

There's lots of those too - and converters from USB to barrel (of various sizes) and vice versa.

The only thing that is truly standard is the polarity of power on a USB-A plug.

Workaccount2• 3 years ago

Because it's cheap and easy to implement into designs. No need to spec and use a new part, just use USB-A for all power connections across everything you sell.

pixl973• 3 years ago

Not that barrel plugs are any better...

I wish I would have wrote the model down posterity, but at one point I worked a trading company and a number of the users had ISDN at home. There were two 'different' modems, and I say different because only the model number on them notified you of it.

One had a plug that output DC power. One had a plug that output AC power.

They were the same size wall wart. Same size barrel. But if you plugged the AC adapter in to the DC modem it would make a noise like you curled the modem up into a ball and let the magic smoke out.

Shekelphile• 3 years ago

Because the EU banned barrel connectors.

izacus• 3 years ago

This is absolutely cursed.

loufe• 3 years ago

My recent work experience leads me to believe CE approval is a rubber stamp. I don't have any clue what that certification is worth to anyone.

mrweasel• 3 years ago

Firstly, CE is not a certification, it just means that the product is in compliance with legislation. It's something the companies need to verify themselves.

That leads to the problem child which is China and its lacking morals. Chinese companies will just slap the CE on anything, because the EU say that must and Europeans seems to enjoy seeing it. Sometimes, they will slap on a different CE marking, meaning "China Export". You can tell the difference by tracing the C to a full circle, if that hits the E exactly, its CE as in "conformité européenne", if it doesn't, it's China Export.

If you're a fly by night USB charger manufacturer, you just invent a new brand for next month, so you won't get the fines or be banned.

pseudalopex• 3 years ago

The mark people claim means China Export is just a fake CE mark.

metafunctor• 3 years ago

I've understood the CE marking to mean that according to the manufacturer, the device shouldn't catch fire, shouldn't shock me, and shouldn't give off a lot of radio interference.

Never did I thank that would be some kind of "this is a great thing" approval stamp.

However, it never occurred to me that a USB-A charging brick would be able to give 7.5V, or even 9V or 12V as others have commented. That might completely fry some devices...

dagw2• 3 years ago

CE approval is not only a rubber stamp, it's a rubber stamp you get to apply yourself. By applying the CE mark you a certifying that your product fulfils all the necessary requirements and that you can document it, but no one will actually check. While it is illegal to apply the CE mark to a non-conforming product (or to sell or import non-conforming products with the CE mark), basically nobody gets prosecuted.

throwawaaarrgh• 3 years ago

Self-attestation is introduced when the industry complains that having a 3rd party verify is too onerous and could hurt business. And they're not wrong, but the result is companies rubber stamp their own compliance. You see it a lot in DoD compliance now, for example.

dzek69• 3 years ago

I saw a device (a drill or something) that had a standard USB-C plug on it's charger. I thought - nice, I can charge a drill with my PD charger or use it's charger to charge my phone while I'm in the garage!

But the charger was always giving 12 or even 20V (i don't remember exactly, I don't have access to this device now).

A real trap.

fishbacon2• 3 years ago

I am concerned that there are no pictures of the adorable cats in the post.

It sound like the manufacturers just see USB-A as a convenient and cheap connector for delivering power.

hddherman5• 3 years ago

Hi, author here, I've fixed that in the post now.

walthamstow• 3 years ago

Great news!

By the way, are you Finnish? I've never seen an 'O with tilde' character before.

fishbacon2• 3 years ago

Amazing, they are indeed adorable!

politelemon• 3 years ago

Adorable review approved

Delphiza• 3 years ago

Your cats are adopting the universally understood pose of their human not being on time to feed them.

Johnny555• 3 years ago

It sound like the manufacturers just see USB-A as a convenient and cheap connector for delivering power.

Is it really any cheaper than a simple barrel connector that manufacturers have used forever for power?

bouke• 3 years ago

Probably cheaper by half a cent.

lxgr8• 3 years ago

This actually makes me quite happy that most stuff does not come with a wall adapter anymore these days, but only with a USB plug.

There are much worse things than 7V that a bad adapter can output.

One of the scariest failure modes I’ve recently learned about is a supply that still provides 5V between both pins – but 225V and 230V to ground, respectively…

anonu• 3 years ago

respectively

not sure I follow you. can you clarify what you mean by both 225v and 230v to ground? You are measuring the potential between ground and USB output?

red_trumpet• 3 years ago

There are two pins. One has 225V to ground, the other one has 230V to ground. So the voltage from pin to pin is still 230V-225V = 5V.

lxgr8• 3 years ago

Yes, and given that USB devices usually don’t have protective grounding (since they expect to be supplied 5V to ground at most!), you just might be what eventually provides that ground connection when you touch a conducting part of the case…

ronsor• 3 years ago

Surely this is a violation of the specifications?

fundad2• 3 years ago

I just bought the one from Eufy and it didn't come with a wall wart. I used the wart that came with a lamp. The lamps is plugged to the USB port on my sit-stand-desk.

When I raise and lower the desk, the lamp lights up. That might not be the power port, it may be the "induction" power button on the lamp's chord getting interference from the desk motors. I'm living the tinderbox life.

idk1• 3 years ago

Really informative article thanks, however, I think that "my two adorable cats" should have a link to the two adorable cats.

phendrenad2• 3 years ago

You did it!!

dncornholio3• 3 years ago

Isn't this just a lesson to always read the output values on adapters?

hddherman5• 3 years ago

Hi, author here. If the writing on those adapters was easily readable by the visually impaired and surrounded by bright red/orange colors, this wouldn't be that much of an issue. I had one hell of a time trying to even photograph the output voltage etching specified on the adapter itself.

dncornholio3• 3 years ago

The info is still there.. You were not being lied to.

iamflimflam12• 3 years ago

Well, USB is a standard - you would expect a standard USB output to deliver a standard voltage.

itslennysfault2• 3 years ago

Interestingly, even Samsung phone chargers put out 9v, but I think they only do that when connected to a Samsung device. On the plug is says 5v and 9v, and (I'm assuming) they switch to 9v when they detect a device that can use it for fast charging.

samus• 3 years ago

It's a USB port. Differently than the dozens of proprietary charging connectors that were ubiquitous before micro-USB and USB-C dominated, consumers have an expectation that it adheres to the specification.

To be on the safe side, one would actually have to check the voltage. Both the output voltage and whether these are really 0V and 5V to ground. The output frequency spectrum should also be checked.

dncornholio3• 3 years ago

To be honest, we used to have those round connecters that would vary in voltage a lot more, so I always check the adapters sticker.

MattHeard• 3 years ago

I have/had this cat water fountain too (my cats are now happy with a normal bowl) and I believe I just threw the wall wart into a box with the rest of my unused USB A wall warts. A little bit like electrical Russian roulette now, I guess.

shermantanktop3• 3 years ago

I couldn’t get mine to drink from it. They side-eyed it warily and avoided my attempts to entice them.

Cats.

neuronic2• 3 years ago

Bought my cat a nice and large bed which is more akin to a throne but anyway. He now happily sleeps directly next to it.

mdaniel• 3 years ago

There are a couple of them which offer selectable force of the fountain effect (e.g. https://www.chewy.com/petlibro-stainless-steel-dog-cat/dp/37...), so it may be their domestication has tamped down the "babbling stream" identification circuits and they need something a little softer

I'd also be on the lookout for the electrical hum mentioned in TFA; that would drive me crazy, and I can't speak to how it would make any kitty wary

Also, and this may go without saying, but watch out for the fountain(s) being made out of materials which are hard to clean

ryukoposting• 3 years ago

At 7.5V, any properly engineered consumer device you plug into that port should do one of two things:

1. just accept the 7.5V and charge happily.

2. trip overvoltage protection and refuse the charger.

That doesn't make this okay, it just means it isn't catastrophic.

Note that I said consumer device. If I plugged one of my microcontroller dev kits into this thing, the magic smoke would be released pretty quickly.

cmiller1• 3 years ago

This brought back a distant memory of when I bricked my very first MP3 player, a Rio 500. See when Rio 500 was being designed the mini-usb B spec was not finalized yet, so when it was released it came with what looked like a normal mini-usb cable for charging, but in fact the pin-out was different. At some point I tried plugging it in with post 2000 cable and it killed the device.

h2odragon2• 3 years ago

IIRC, just before "miniB" actually hit; there was a lot of confusion and efforts to make something like it. Olympus and Fuji both had a USBC looking wingless connector on some USB cables, they'd used the same connector, but wired it differently.

I was selling cables and adapters on ebay at the time and we had a package with both types. Easier to sell people both versions than deal with "oops i needed the other one."

(I may well have mis-named the parties; apologies if so)

gtirloni• 3 years ago

Same discussion about USB-C, Thunderbolt, etc and how users would be confused.

akx2• 3 years ago

Lidl does this too – the rotary tool Parkside PFBS 12 B3 comes with a charger that's obviously not USB-PD, but has an USB-C plug and it puts out a solid 13 volts at all times. (See https://www.kompernass.com/en/accessories/2316/charger-8 for an image.)

I sent Lidl a courteous and long mail about this and they didn't really care other than "please open a service ticket with your local Lidl", which I didn't care to do since what would they do?

robin_reala• 3 years ago

Is there any EU body you can report them to?

Faark• 3 years ago

Well, i had the same question and looking for this & the rules in general was... lets call it "a fun evening".

Those common charger EU rules pushing USB-C via the Radio Equipment Directive are actually only for the device, and even a specific list of types. But in briefing document [2] (made for RED change last year) mentions:

a separate initiative on the eco-design for the external power supply (EPS) would harmonise the EPS-side receptacle and the communication protocol.

So "EPS" is what we are looking for and they use some eco laws to regulate them. [1] gives an overview and links COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2019/1782. And again, it only applies to a specific set of devices, with power tools not being listed. Doubt those fall under "Other toys, leisure and sports equipment"^^

Back to that EPS initiative... from my understanding, it [3] seems to be still "Planned for Third quarter 2023". Feedback period ended in May 2022, ofc.

The department seems to have vacant spot [4] for an expert, btw :)

[1] https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/6988... [3] https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... [4] https://www.cnr.it/sites/default/files/public/media/internaz...

iamflimflam12• 3 years ago

Report them to trading standards.

sod• 3 years ago

courteous and long

How about urgent and short?

e.g. One day a kid will charge their toy over night with your 13v usb-c charger and they'll burn their house down.

mint2• 3 years ago

Just a little too short, add:

“and this email notification demonstrates you are aware of the hazard which will be relevant in lawsuits.”

akx2• 3 years ago

I didn't directly mention burning down the house, but I did say

"The takeaway of this is that given the plug looks exactly like a standard USB-C phone charger's plug, it's easy for a novice user (say, a child whose phone charger's wire has been bit through by the family dog) to attempt to charge a device not rated for 13 V using this charger, which is quite likely to damage the device."

pests• 3 years ago

long

People don't like to read. Short & concise wins the day here.

kristjansson• 3 years ago

So instead of a barrel plug, they ... made a barrel plug shaped like a USB-C connector?

MilaM• 3 years ago

I have the same tool and charger and only noticed the out-of-spec voltage after trying to charge the tool with a regular USB-C cable and charger. It's really disappointing someone thought this is a good design.

Newer revisions of the tool don't seem to have this flaw though. They only come with a USB-C cable and no charger in the box.

Also thanks for reminding me to put a big sticker on the charger with a warning!

raxxorraxor• 3 years ago

Like those self-installed USB-chargers that are directly connected to your car battery. Can work sometimes, but you need robust devices.

Probably a side effect when USB-PD was introduced and people neglected the facts that there needs to be an elaborate handshake for anything other than 5V.

Previously we always needed to check non-USB chargers for their voltage and there were connectors and adapters for different sizes. But now you need to be more careful with USB as well.

fennecbutt• 3 years ago

As much as people hate on the EU, this is their sort of jam, EU should ban misuse of things like USB. Bam, problem solved. They even sorted out "we wer alwuz planin 2 use USB c, it wuz our plan all alung" Apple.

mschuster91• 3 years ago

Yes, properly implemented USB type C ports can negotiate all sorts of voltages, but this is not one of them.

Not just USB-C... even early generation QuickCharge could (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge).

spzb• 3 years ago

I dread to think what the insides of that adapter look like.

al_al• 3 years ago

Few years ago I bought a 12V led strip from aliexpress, it came with a usb charger. A "12V" USB charger. You can easily guess who put it near other chargers by mistake and then fried a PS4 controller trying to charge it with that :/

palemoonale2• 3 years ago

At one point I wanted to see if I could create a sort of a DIY UPS for the water fountain. It would be quite bad if I was at work and a power outage results in cats not being able to drink water (they don’t really care for normal water bowls after getting the fountain).

So another self-made problem then.

npteljes3• 3 years ago

No, the point is that the charger has a standard USB-A socket, but delivers nonstandard charge. This is potentially dangerous, as the function of the charger does not match the user expectation.

palemoonale2• 3 years ago

Nope, the point is that he thought to fancy / easy up life with more tech (mentioned potential health issues my ass, you have to clean up every day anyway after pets - does he thin a fountain does not build up residue and germs?), and promptly got more issues to solve. One is the non-standard voltage output, another is spoiled cats which can't be arsed to drink from a peasant's bowl (knew about such habits before, exact same situation).

Stop trying to 'improve' life by more & more tech-based BS.

toddmorey• 3 years ago

The idea of a water fountain for cats may sound odd

Cats instinctively love & trust moving water as stagnant water can accumulate bacteria & disease.

So a cat fountain sounds like a gimmick or novelty but it’s a great idea.

arwhatever• 3 years ago

I bet my cat drinks 500% more water since getting him this fountain, as compared to a still bowl of water.

It’s cute and adorable (the fountain is a bit silly looking), and I have to assume it’s good for him.

And to guard against power outages, I got him a separate fountain with an open top, so in a pinch at least he had some standing water.

jamincan• 3 years ago

I got one after I noticed how much my cat liked to jump up to the sink and try to drink from the tap while I was using it. He loves it, and anecdotally seems to drink more than he did without.

upon_drumhead3• 3 years ago

Ours love direct from tap,but assumes the fountain is going to kill them.

small_fish• 3 years ago

One of my cats learned to bump the faucet lever on the kitchen sink when he wanted a drink. Fortunately the sink only overflowed twice but that was enough to make me very serious about not leaving dishes in the sink.

fundad2• 3 years ago

Same here, we like our own furniture and faucets.

So the cats have their own cat towers and a water fountain. The first day with the fountain, the cats were so chill. I wonder if running-water sound soothes them.

AngryData2• 3 years ago

Yeah I though ti was weird and was skeptical the first time I saw one. Ended up getting one later and the cats love it.

itslennysfault2• 3 years ago

I was once working on an app for a Clover point of sale system. On the side there is a USB-C port. I plugged my new-ish MacBook Pro into it thinking I would be able to debug, but instead my mac instantly went black. I unplugged it, and eventually it rebooted, but the USB ports on that side never worked again.

Turns out that port is intended for connecting a receipt printer, and clearly not in any way a standard USB-C.

There is actually a micro usb port elsewhere on the device that can be used for debugging. Lesson learned the hard way.

pixl973• 3 years ago

"Model 3.0, now with integrated USB-KILL"

squiffsquiff• 3 years ago

Everything old is new again. I used to think that the Etherkiller was a joke... http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/

upon_drumhead3• 3 years ago

ThermoWorks SmokeX and Signal both use a 12v usbc power adapter. My partner fried her phone on it once due to seeing the cable and assuming it was a normal charger.

erikcw• 3 years ago

I thought my ThermoWorks Signal had a dead/defective battery after trying to charge it on a standard USB power adapter. Device booted up and and functioned fine, except the battery wouldn't charge. Plugged it into the provided adapter and it started charging again.

Thanks for the PSA, I'll be sure to get that adapter off my kitchen counter right away!

throwaw33333434• 3 years ago

after reading the title I thought the manufacturer coated the adapter in chilly, so cats won't chew on it and thought - "That's a brilliant idea".

hammock2• 3 years ago

I thought he was going to say there was current in the water.

I remember showering in Costa Rica at a “hotel” and the shower head was one of those that heats the water (with an electric heater) and it was shocking me the whole time I used it. Probably shouldn’t have used it

Apparently those are common in central and South America.

tkems2• 3 years ago

I remember this video [1] from bigclive about it. I had no idea it was so common to have live wires in contact with water. At least they are grounded sometimes?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjA0aee07k

salad-tycoon• 3 years ago

Sometimes. In my experience in living in 3rd world it’s more like extremely rarely. The tingle just lets you know it’s working.

JCharante3• 3 years ago

Yup. When traveling abroad in a developing nation it turns out no one bothers to ground their power, so my macbooks (or my friend's laptop) always shocks me if I touch it while plugging in. You kinda taste iron if you keep touching it, but all the locals are used to it.

cesarb7• 3 years ago

The only laptops I've seen doing that are Apple laptops, for some reason other laptop brands do not seem to have that problem.

wkat4242• 3 years ago

In developed countries they do the same if you use the duck head on the adaptor instead of the cable with the grounded connector sadly.

And yes it's because of the metal case. It's not the actual mains you're connected to though, just some induction on the PSU shielding.

forward1• 3 years ago

I recently replaced my 120V receptacles with USB ones. Super convenient and it's allowed me to get rid of the dozens of various transformer plugs around the home.

https://store.leviton.com/collections/usb-outlets

tkems2• 3 years ago

While I think this is a great idea, I've seen these in public places and the USB-A sockets almost always get damaged. I'd be worried about having to replace a $40-50 receptacle every year or two if I happened to bump the cable and wanted to keep using the USB part. Still a good idea overall and I can see them being used in a few places around my home to save space.

Also, I'd love to see ones with 65w charging so I can charge my laptop and still have an outlet to use!

upon_drumhead3• 3 years ago

How about 60w?

https://a.co/d/eBLEVjC

There are a few no-name brands with 65w, but I don’t trust them.

Just note, they are much larger than normal outlets and can be a squeeze to fit in a normal box.

iancmceachern• 3 years ago

Super dangerous, if someone were to not know and plug this charger into a regular USB device.

boricj• 3 years ago

I can only hope the person who designed this USB power adapter will end up frying their phone, tablet or other electronic device with it for some karmic justice.

myarthuritis• 3 years ago

I have the same fountain, I saw that when unboxing and immediately labeled the adapter as "FOUNTAIN ONLY". Really don't want some device fried because it received 50% more voltage than anticipated.

plz-remove-card• 3 years ago

Not victim blaming here, but I always check the output specs on any power adapter I have before using it, especially USB. I have quite the collection and in the very least the amperage varies wildly.

hadlock• 3 years ago

Would have been nice if he actually measured the output to verify. Takes 2 seconds with a multimeter. If the adapter is already out of spec, there's no reason why you should trust what is written on the side of the box.

hddherman5• 3 years ago

Very valid point, I just did that and my multimeter measures the output at 7.71V.

ck2• 3 years ago

That previous thread the other day made me wish there was a cheap usb pluggable to tell you about the quality (and quantity) of voltage from a usb device.

Simple small screen or just led lights.

Maybe even a "kill-a-watt" for usb power cube/banks.

wepple• 3 years ago

The tools exist, but maybe not in a single nice package. I use:

- A pass-thru USB power meter. Measures volts, amps, wattage (simple arithmetic), and watt-hours

- a USB load device. You can configure the voltage and amps to draw. Used in conjunction with the above, you can see just how much a USB supply can supply

- a watch cell powered cable tester. Not essential for your use-case, but great for working out whether a cable is at fault or not.

None of this directly measures quality, but usually you can infer that from amps, and from negotiation.

coverclock• 3 years ago

I too have tried to use a USB power bank as a kind of DIY UPS to power a Raspberry Pi SBC. What I learned - which may be unrelated to your experience - is that all of the several power banks I tried can be either charging, or powering a device, but not both at the same time. So my Raspberry Pi would run until the power bank got low, then the power bank would cut power to the Pi and charge itself, then power the Raspberry Pi up again. I had to buy a power bank specifically advertised as a USB UPS; that worked fine. The normal power bank seems to be designed to charge a battery powered device like a mobile phone (whose own battery can be thought of as a kind of UPS for the device), but not a device that requires continuous power (like the Pi).

KolenCh• 3 years ago

Which one did you get? I got a Zendure specifically for this purpose, but I find it the hard way that when it switch between battery power to wall power, it will momentarily lose power for a sec, resulting in a reboot

geocrasher• 3 years ago

I just bought a cheap oscilloscope (Hanmatek DOS1102) and it has the opposite oddity. It comes with a standard 5v USB adapter, but the cable going to scope is a USB A on one end and on the other... 2.5mm X 2.1mm barrel! Why they did not use a standard USB Micro or Mini (or C) connector on the scope, I'll never know.

paledot• 3 years ago

Wow, I appreciate the warning. I have a similar fountain that also uses a 7.5 V "USB" connector, and that adapter definitely would've ended up in my big box o' orphaned USB bricks when the fountain inevitably gives up the ghost or just becomes too gross to keep clean.

VoxPelli• 3 years ago

Increased voltage in itself is okay if done through any of the negotiated power delivery standards such as USB PD

Latest USB PD supports up to 48V and up to 5A, resulting in 240W

That’s also a reason why not all fast chargers work well for all products – if the required voltage + amperage combination is not supported then the closest supported lower combination will be used instead.

That said, 7.5 volt is not a supported voltage in USB PD at least and there seems to be no handshake that guards it in this case

My cat water fountain comes with a spicy USB power adapter

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