Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

https://www.thefp.com/p/crypto-fooled-us-once-fool-us-again

by fortran77 • 3 years ago

39 169 3 years ago

fortran772• 3 years ago

Michael Lewis' "Big Short" was a decent account, but after that he's gone mad, if he's simply not on the payroll of Big Crypto.

jqpabc12310• 3 years ago

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam.

It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency.

But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction.

No one is hiding the fact that by buying crypto, you are exchanging your legal working currency for nothing more than an entry in a database with no real guarantees of any kind --- legal or otherwise. No one is hiding the fact that with only moderate technical skill, anyone can create a similar database and mint their own version of Bitcoin.

All crypto really does is provide a quasi-viable excuse to entice people to lie to themselves about economic reality and what we call "money".

TestingTest5• 3 years ago

What's also incredible is the lack of government action on crypto. I mean, if something like crypto happened in the 60s, you can bet countries like the US would've banned "owning it" just like they did with gold.

JSavageOne9• 3 years ago

Much much easier to ban a physical item like gold than crypto. Trying to ban crypto is like trying to ban p2p file sharing, except with much more serious implications as it would also kill a country's presence and innovation in the industry.

fastball2• 3 years ago

Solving double-spend in a distributed / decentralized system sounds like a guarantee to me?

hudon6• 3 years ago

It only seems to solve it in theory. However in a world of centralized mining where devs have high influence on how forks are treated, the double spend problem is still a problem. This is because what distinguishes forks can be their “validity”, not their proof-of-work, and fork validity is decided by humans and subject to politics and fraud.

jqpabc12310• 3 years ago

Cart before the horse. There is no guarantee that you can even "single spend" crypto.

Prove me wrong by paying next month's rent with it. Let me know how it goes.

kouru225• 3 years ago

Ngl having a shared global decentralized database that’s you can develop on sounds pretty nice to me. Definitely wouldn’t call that a scam. Maybe it’s overvalued though… As someone who’s dabbled in the art world, I think people underestimate how important provenance is to an art piece. Having a decentralized system that can automatically keep a paper trail and is seamlessly connected to an automated market/auction service is mind blowing for the art world. It’s basically automating two entire sub industries: the auction houses, and the appraisers. The NFTs don’t even need to stay digitally to be useful. The art world is experimenting a lot with printing these days, and the NFTs are just a method of being able to buy a print from the artist.

the_gastropod6• 3 years ago

At the end of the day, it’s a database still wholly dependent on the correctness of the data being inputted. The blockchain Rube Goldberg machine cannot solve for that physical to digital interface. A MS Access database with a checksum would be every bit as valid a solution to the problem you’ve outlined at a fraction of the complexity.

foobarian• 3 years ago

Maybe it’s overvalued though…

I think the problems started when people started treating crypto currencies as investments instead of, well, currencies. I think the BTC jump from low 100s into 6 digits territory is probably what precipitated the craze, making a lot of people go berserk and spawned a whole cottage industry.

spaceman_20202• 3 years ago

Forget the art world, I come from a country known for fradulent degrees, land records and academic certificates. Simply being able to certify them globally would be very useful.

JSavageOne9• 3 years ago

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled.

How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

the_gastropod6• 3 years ago

Cryptocurrencies are scams in much the same way MLM schemes are scams. Everyone knows what they’re buying into. But their expectations of outcomes are greatly skewed by the vested interests of existing participants.

ToucanLoucan3• 3 years ago

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled.

This is astonishing mental gymnastics. Take the average crypto investor and ask them how the blockchain works. Not marketing fluff: the actual steps in pseudo-code for literally any step of the process.

"The code is all there bro" is an astonishing amount of bad faith. Yeah, it is. Big deal. I've been a software developer for my entire adult life, but I don't work in cryptography, so I can't tell you a single damn thing about how blockchains work. The average investor in crypto, the influencers that peddle it, the whales that flooded the market with money? None of them understand it even slightly. I'd bet my life savings on it.

How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

A short, non-exhaustive list of differences:

- Crypto has basically zero consumer protections and makes the implementing of them extremely difficult by it's nature

- It is "anonymous" (actually pseudonymous) unless you are technically inclined enough to interact with the chain yourself, with your own software. "Normies" get to use platforms built by... somebody? Who maybe did it right? Probably. If they did it wrong though good luck getting your money back!

- Complete lack of any oversight of any regulatory body, which is a selling point, up until there actually are those, which are the large miners, stakeholders and exchanges

- Runaway deflation is not only a possibility, it is the goal of all of these projects, it's what "TO THE MOON!" means. They WANT that. After which and during their attempts to achieve it, the currency is useless as a currency because of the volatility in value.

- The system has demonstrated multiple times that all the "ownership is truly yours" rhetoric is thrown out the window when the real monied investors in the background have their assets taken from them, in a way that is not against the rules, but no worries we'll just rewrite history for them because they're rich, they can't lose or this whole scheme falls apart

kylebenzle5• 3 years ago

I find that people that are not smart enough to understand Bitcoin generally respond by getting mad about Bitcoin or ignoring it by calling it a scam.

jqpabc12310• 3 years ago

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying

It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself.

You're ignoring the obvious difference between "legal tender" and electrons. Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't?

Those running the crypto "marketplace" don't suffer from these sort of delusions.

rvz2• 3 years ago

The cat is out of the bag on this one. Can't be 100% stopped or shutdown.

Many have tried stopping it for 15 years and unfortunately they are still wasting their time trying to do so.

coldbrewed• 3 years ago

Crypto doesn't have to be explicitly stopped or shut down to be consigned to niche cases.

In fifteen years Linux went from a hobbyist project in 1991 to a major infrastructure project underpinning the Internet; Golang started in 2009 and now is ubiquitous in the tech world. Plenty of analogous technologies exist that were created and flourished in fifteen years, and they did so by providing meaningful value without requiring universal adoption to become effective.

In contrast the Bitcoin paper was released in 2008 and blockchain still hasn't found the killer app that people outside of the crypto ecosystem rely on in some serious capacity. Fifteen years in blockchain tech is still slow, risky, and painful to use; scams abound and there's a distinct lack of boring, practical use cases that make blockchains a safe technology to use as foundational infrastructure.

What manifests as people trying to stop blockchains is typically regulatory bodies trying to stop money laundering or the sale of unregistered investments. This isn't some shadowy cabal trying to crush Bitcoin but institutions watching Celsius Network and FTX detonate and trying to catch up to keep people from getting burned.

So yes, the blockchain cat is out of the bag, but nobody cares. We are squarely in "put up or shut up" territory because enough time has passed for the tech to develop; if blockchains never catch on then it's because the tech just wasn't that useful to begin with.

tim3333• 3 years ago

It could be vastly reduced by banning the fiat on and off ramps.

dig12• 3 years ago

No one is hiding the fact that by buying crypto, you are exchanging your legal working currency for nothing more than an entry in a database with no real guarantees of any kind --- legal or otherwise

You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent, but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis).

All crypto really does is provide a quasi-viable excuse to entice people to lie to themselves about economic reality and what we call "money".

The same can be applied to the modern stock market. How many top players bring actual value, are sustainable, and can live more than 6 months without pumping stocks (and company valuation) through social media nonsense and other accounting tricks?

RandomLensman• 3 years ago

In 2008, who lost deposits in the US? Can you explain how, for example, Apple or Exxon are just pumping their stock and what the accounting tricks are?

dragontamer3• 3 years ago

You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent, but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis).

How much money did your savings account lose in 2008? Or your checking account?

pfisherman• 3 years ago

I own stocks that pay me dividends - a share of the company profits. The company manufactures tangible goods, sells them to people, and then distributes some of the profits from these sales to shareholders. The shares I own are a claim on some portion of those profits.

There are plenty of companies that pay dividends. The logic behind stock buybacks is that it achieves a similar end for investors with favorable tax treatment.

In either case I am receiving some portion of the cash flows generated by a business. These cash flows are being generated independently of any stock market activity.

So tell me what claim on an underlying asset / cash flow does a cryptocurrency entitle me to?

spaceman_20202• 3 years ago

The tech itself isn’t scam. A way to certify ownership is important if you’re going to build a future where work is borderless, digital, and copyright enforcement/royalty collection has to be automated.

Scams get built on the tech, but that’s always been the case with any new tech.

That said, crypto culture and the speculative energy it breeds definitely incentivized scams. The culture needs a massive overhaul

nostrademons2• 3 years ago

Crypto only has an opening because all the other functioning currencies are actually just electrons with no intrinsic value whatsoever too.

kylebenzle5• 3 years ago

Exactly, the critics love to harp on about how "nothing backs Bitcoin!"

I find that people that are not smart enough to understand Bitcoin generally respond by getting mad about Bitcoin or ignoring it.

cjbgkagh4• 3 years ago

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. It seems that the modern left is adopting the government as their own. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. In my view the current fiat money system is a very old legalized scam around which there is quite a lot of academic contortion and opaque jargon to try to justify its existence - funded by those who benefit from it. Unwinding the scam would be political suicide as it would crush the perceived wealth of the populus.

This is not to say that crypto isn't so infested with scams that they're now inseparable. I spread my trust around thinly across many countries, banks, and financial instruments with very little of it in crypto. My hopes is that crypto will mature and become boring but useful but do believe we're still a long way away from that.

bri3k• 3 years ago

When I first heard the term 'fiat money system' I thought it was talking about bitcoin. The value exists because some crypto guy says it exists. That is the very definition of fiat.

After when I was corrected that they were talking about real currency my first thought was oh, this is a grift. Only scammers try to reverse the meaning of words like this.

jqpabc12310• 3 years ago

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess.

Given a choice between the most stable government on the planet and the scam artists running crypto exchanges --- the choice is a no brainer.

Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all.

But you trust scam artists running crypto exchanges from undisclosed 3rd world locations?

You're lying to yourself.

panarky2• 3 years ago

no intrinsic value
electrons
entry in a database

The most fascinating phenomenon of crypto arguments is that they never change.

Fifteen years ago you could find these same unintentionally ironic statements, where the most cutting criticisms of cryptocurrency are equally true of dollars and euros.

The only thing missing from this thread (so far) is mysticism about the money supply and confident assertions that dollars are somehow "backed" by the military or tax payments.

jqpabc12310• 3 years ago

dollars are somehow "backed" by the military or tax payments.

They are backed by law --- they are "legal tender". As such, I'm fairly confident I can pay next month's rent with them.

Crypto is backed by --- absolutely nothing.

Pretending you can't see the difference here is lying to yourself.

gameshot911• 3 years ago

Computer and phone screens are just "photons flashing around", and yet the information they represent is indisputably useful.

AraceliHarker• 3 years ago

Those who criticize SBF most harshly now are in the crypto industry. It is not impossible that, after SBF is completely expelled from the crypto industry, SBF's critics will engage in similar behavior.

EA-3167• 3 years ago

I think it's more that they're already engaging in that behavior, and hate SBF because he did it so openly and poorly. Nobody hates an incompetent scammer like a competent scammer.

ferfumarma• 3 years ago

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin.

Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar").

The ability to instantly transmit the hardest asset known to man (harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance) does have utility, regardless of what critics say.

It has downsides too: the ability to be lost or stolen if custody is sloppy, energy use, and many others. But the balance between its utility and its limitations is something that enough holders recognize that it maintains a value above $26k for now.

The US debt recently increased by the entire market cap of bitcoin ($275 billion [1]) in a single day.

That doesn't guarantee anything, but in the old days when the global reserve currency started to become frankly inflationary, there was no easy recourse - you could only jump to the next best national fiat (which could have the same problems or worse), or gold (with all of its limitations). Now, due to bitcoin, an alternative exists.

People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why. I think it might be harder to recognize its value when it's part of your implicit cultural background: the dollar is money. We lack the perspective of our great grandparents, who lived through the great depression, and understand that the dollar has no intrinsic value, either. Once that epiphany is reached by the masses, the appreciation in bitcoin value could come quickly.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw...

dukeyukey6• 3 years ago

People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why

"Hate" is a strong word, but I dislike Bitcoin because so much of its value doesn't come from utility, but from speculation. People rarely buy Bitcoin to actually use it, but instead because they hope/expect the price will go up. And that's what leads to cases like SBF.

and understand that the dollar has no intrinsic value, either.

You need US dollars to pay US taxes and buy/sell into the world's largest consumer market. That's why there's a strong demand for dollars.

krupan24• 3 years ago

People are speculating on Bitcoin for different reasons, but many of us are doing so because we have examined it closely and seen it's utility. It is still very early in the adoption phase and so it's hard to see the utility in practice right now, but as you learn more about our current financial system and how Bitcoin works, the potential of Bitcoin is pretty astounding.

w1nst0nsm1th• 3 years ago

Strong demand for Dollar is linked to commodities being all priced in Dollar.

If global oil output had to decrease due to, for example, peak oil, dollar value would collapse very quickly, because all of a sudden, monetary mass would be excessive compared with declining economic activity.

quickthrowman• 3 years ago

That doesn't guarantee anything, but in the old days when the global reserve currency started to become frankly inflationary, there was no easy recourse - you could only jump to the next best national fiat (which could have the same problems or worse), or gold (with all of its limitations). Now, due to bitcoin, an alternative exists.

Or you just buy assets priced in dollars; bonds, real estate, equities, etc. Nobody with half a brain holds their wealth in currency. Currency is for transacting, not storing wealth.

People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why.

See above and below.

It has 0 intrinsic value. It also has no cash flows. The only “value” it has is speculative.

notamy2• 3 years ago

People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why. I think it might be harder to recognize its value when it's part of your implicit cultural background: the dollar is money.

Because if BTC is going to be my money for transactions, I actively do not want any of the speculation on its price. It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swing as much as 50-100% within a year — some quick searching says BTC started the year around $17k/BTC and is currently around $27k/BTC. BTC currently acts like both a currency and a speculative store of value, and only one of those is really useful if it’s supposed to be the future of money. Otherwise it’s just a more-volatile speculative bet than stocks or bonds or etc that people hope to eventually trade for USD.

krupan24• 3 years ago

You do realize that people heavily speculate on the price of dollars, stocks, real estate, etc., don't you? ;-)

In all seriousness, we do understand what you are saying, bitcoin's price relative to the things you want to buy does fluctuate pretty heavily right now because it is still very much in the early adoption phase. But eventually that will even out.

AnthonyMouse15• 3 years ago

It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swing as much as 50-100% within a year

Why not? If you're not using it for speculation then you wouldn't be holding it for that long. If you're using it as a currency then you might keep $50 worth in your wallet and if you ever receive more than that and not want to spend it immediately you'd exchange it for some traditional investment instead.

latchkey2• 3 years ago

It is possible to borrow against BTC (and many other crypto) holdings. This means you don't have to sell. Lend your BTC, earns a bit interest. Borrow your local currency at some rate and within a comfortable liquidation ratio. Spend the local currency on what you want to buy. Earn from your job. Pay back the loan. Keep thing thing you bought. Now you're putting your store of value to work for you and the daily swings in BTC price become less important. No need to go to anyone for permission to do that either. No credit checks. No banks. Anywhere in the world.

k__2• 3 years ago

In my opinion, Bitcoin was just the low hanging fruit.

Proof of Work is probably the way to go, but please make it useful work.

sandworm101• 3 years ago

Revise SETI@home. A bitcoin for every earth-sized exoplanet your GPU can discover in a given day. Ten bitcoin if it finds intelligent life.

Or a darker proof of work concept: Forget the big data centers, the NSA could hand out bitcoins to GPUs who help them brute force enemy encryption.

krupan24• 3 years ago

Securing the Bitcoin network is the useful work.

adgjlsfhk12• 3 years ago

The main problem with bitcoin is it's fundamentally a terrible currency. With a transaction time of between 30 minutes and 16 hours, throughput of 7 transactions per second, and an energy consumption comparable to a medium sized country, it's an obviously awful currency for anything other than selling large quantities of drugs, ransom payments, or gambling.

pfisch2• 3 years ago

That is an improvement over gold though, which has an insane cost to move from the us to china.

krupan24• 3 years ago

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident that the funds have settled. Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best.

The lightning network on top of Bitcoin gives you credit card speed transaction times, with settlement still happening on the Bitcoin layer in minutes not days.

dghlsakjg• 3 years ago

You say it is inflation resistant, but after a period of massive deflation, it has seen inflation rates that would make an African dictator blush, and now it is back to deflating.

Things that are inflation resistant don’t rise AND fall wildly in relation to gently inflating assets like USD. They have a pricing curve which would be completely flat when priced in real (inflation adjusted == real) dollars. Bitcoin is not that

netcruiser2• 3 years ago

He is talking about inflating the money supply.

pixl973• 3 years ago

and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why

The dollar buys drugs, it buys guns, it buys terrible things. But it also buys bread and pays your rent.

The interface a large portion of us has had with bitcoin is speculation and cybercrime. "Your computer has been encrypted, please insert X bitcoin to continue" is not a great interface for making someone have a good feeling about a product.

We lack the perspective of our great grandparents, who lived through the great depression, and understand that the dollar has no intrinsic value, either.

You also lack the perspective that if the economy collapses, particularly a large economy like the US economy your "unpinned" bitcoin is going to behave like it is very much pinned to that dollar.

pfisch2• 3 years ago

People don't really buy things on a daily basis with gold either, and 99% of its valuation is based on speculation.

AnthonyMouse15• 3 years ago

The dollar buys drugs, it buys guns, it buys terrible things. But it also buys bread and pays your rent.

You can use Bitcoin to pay your phone bill with AT&T and buy electronics on Newegg. Many Americans might use US dollars to do this instead, but why would that impair their view of the Euro?

The interface a large portion of us has had with bitcoin is speculation and cybercrime. "Your computer has been encrypted, please insert X bitcoin to continue" is not a great interface for making someone have a good feeling about a product.

This seems like putting the blame on the wrong party. If the criminals demand payment in gift cards, do people get mad at companies for offering gift cards?

You also lack the perspective that if the economy collapses, particularly a large economy like the US economy your "unpinned" bitcoin is going to behave like it is very much pinned to that dollar.

If the world economy collapses, sure. If you're in some country in South America and that country's economy collapses, probably not.

US dollars are unique because -- ironically -- they're not just used as a currency. Enough large institutions and foreign governments hold them (or explicitly dollar-denominated assets like US treasuries) as an investment to significantly affect their value.

JSavageOne9• 3 years ago

Bitcoin uses about 100x more energy than ethereum, has 5x less throughput, and doesn't natively support smart contracts. There's definitely also room for ethereum.

krupan24• 3 years ago

Ethereum is essentially centrally controlled and Bitcoin is absolutely not.

cmcaleer• 3 years ago

There is no word for swapping $5 of crypto on Uniswap currently costing ~$2 in gas fees (and this is 'low') and taking several minutes other than "dumb".

There are other cryptos which have most or all of the advantages of Ethereum with minimal downsides. I don't want to come across as shilling any particular bag, so I'll be vague and say there are chains with reasonable amounts of activity where transactions take seconds and fees are $0.00x or $0.000x. This actually is disruptive and interesting compared to fees for Stripe/Braintree or even Mastercard/Visa.

The reality is that if Ethereum released today with its capabilities, it would not see widespread adoption. Its position today is purely because it's the incumbent smart contract chain.

lawn7• 3 years ago

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin.

Except that Bitcoin is very expensive to actually use and isn't private by default.

That Bitcoin is the only one with value is only wishful thinking from the Bitcoin maximalists.

krupan24• 3 years ago

Bitcoin is not expensive to use, I'm not sure why you think it is

It is far more private by default than our current central bank and credit card system. Could it be better? Maybe. Does everyone want a fully anonymous system? I'm not sure

krupan24• 3 years ago

People on hacker news are smart, but not about everything. It takes some effort to really understand our central bank dollar based financial system. It's takes effort to understand Bitcoin. Most of us here are focused on other things and only take a cursory look at Bitcoin and dismiss it's "slow transaction times" (which are actually incredibly fast settlement times), high energy use (which actually uses marginal energy that would otherwise be wasted), and conclude "this is not worth my time to understand, and I wish everyone would just shut up about it."

AnonC• 3 years ago

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin.

That it doesn’t have any known/recognizable founder has helped it quite a bit. Compare that to other coins with founders who have compromised on things (in some or many people’s views) and it makes the case stronger. Plus the fact that it didn’t have an ICO-like event — where the people launching it and their friends get a big stake for close to nothing — has also helped reinforce the idea that it’s less scammy.

Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar").

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from if you’re comparing all other cryptocurrencies. Would Monero and similar currencies be a “me too” derivative too? If yes, why? Monero is quite steady, AFAIK, in its valuation in fiat currency terms.

kylebenzle5• 3 years ago

The Bitcoin project is called Bitcoin Cash now

__loam3• 3 years ago

harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance

Are we saying bitcoin is this? Because it's stupid volatile and seems pretty correlated to inflation.

tpetry• 3 years ago

The article is missing a point. The author says he underestimated the impact on crypto. But he was completely right - after so many years crypto and the blockchain didn't really find its place.

But he underestimated the get-rich-quick mentality. That's what made crypto big. Everyone wanted to be a part of it. And naturally, this type of mentality is filled with fraudsters.

sigmar• 3 years ago

Then we get to claims about events that happened in the real world. Here, you would hope Lewis asks himself the question, “Are the characters making these claims reliable narrators?” But his book is not interested in that question, which gets relegated to a footnote and is answered with a Meh, I believe him.

I'm like 80% through the book and am enjoying it. Feel like I've definitely gained a better understanding of who SBF was with the pre-FTX context. But I 100% agree with the quote above and it almost reads like an autobiography.

KasianFranks• 3 years ago

The days of the tired overblown mantra among certain software engineering camps, many of which are funded by public capital markets, continuing to beat the drum of "all crypto is a scam" are over. Having an understanding and appreciation of how public capital markets work is key. Not many have this understanding and appreciation. The capital markets were designed to enable a company to raise capital aka funding. Crypto now represents a truly global capital marketplace accessible to all, not just to accredited investors in the US. Bottom line.

Key points to remember:

1. Crypto is not a currency, it's a trading vehicle similar to a stock, junk bond, debenture, options or futures contract.

2. Regulated security tokens/crypto that represent equity ownership in a company with real products and with real revenue generating capability is the future of crypto.

It's important to realize the advantage of a truly global capital marketplace represented by regulated security tokens connected to the equity of a company/startup which provide a company/startup the ability to raise funding, create jobs, get salaries paid, fund operations in science and techology in any indusrty which provide a return on investment capital (ROIC) to stakeholders and shareholders at the same time.

krupan24• 3 years ago

I wish we could stop saying crypto here and just say, fraud, or ponzi, or get rich quick schemes. Crypto was the marketing term used this time around, but it's been other things in the past and there will be new ones in the future.

yieldcrv• 3 years ago

Alameda was the one firm in the world that was capable of convincing a regional Japanese bank to ignore the Financial Services Agency, even though Japan’s banking regulator had told banks to be maximally skeptical

When I was in Japan I saw this too, basically the nearest crypto grifter with the right unrelated pedigree convinces people that derive clout in this antiquated way. It makes me sad that “never crypto” gatekeepers eventually run into the nearest one who just happens to be shilling anything random. The whole point of crypto is that you don't need to gauge utility off of pedigree, you can gauge it on your own and reach an independent understanding that’s corroborated by all the other participants in the network, which includes walking away and being disinterested.

There needs to be broad education on this stuff and what a properly managed crypto servicing organization looks like. Primarily because these are concepts that don't go away with any regulatory change, its as simple as 2 computers or nodes communicating with each other so it never goes away.

linesinthesand• 3 years ago

Who's 'us'? Crypto sure did not fool me

fortran772• 3 years ago

This was flagged not because it was an intresting, relevant review contrasting two books, but because zealots here don't like Bari Weiss, publisher of very mainstream "The Free Press."

tim3333• 3 years ago

There's quite an entertaining (and sometimes shocking) discussion with the author of Number Go Up about the book https://youtu.be/THdU00jutvo (Zeke Faux Interview with Patrick Boyle)

I'm not sure I buy the thesis of Patrick's article "Crypto Fooled Us Once" on the basis FTX collapsed when SBF stole the clients money. Crypto goes on fine, Kraken, Coinbase and a hundred other exchanges still do business. One crooked exchange less has not put crypto and fooling into the past.

friend_and_foe• 3 years ago

Once? There has been a wave of exchange collapses following every single bull market to date. Mt Gox was the first.

Yes, it will fool you again. Only if you're a fool.

Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

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