There's no speed limit (2009)

http://sivers.org/kimo

by tnorthcutt • 14 years ago

699 188 14 years ago

sivers.org

sivers43• 14 years ago

Surprised to see a post of mine here on Hacker News. (First time in a long time. Thanks!)

Feel free to ask me absolutely anything here.

aamar• 14 years ago

I've seen this post before, but I was glad to reread it. A bit off-topic, but could you tell us about your sleep schedule?

sivers43• 14 years ago

6 hours has always been enough for me.

At Berklee, I'd get a piano room every night at 10pm until midnight, when they closed. Then I'd sleep from 1am to 7am, practice some more, and go to class.

I was quite driven.

Kind of like someone who really feels if they just work their ass off they can be the next Zuckerberg, 20 years ago, being a successful musician felt more attainable. It felt like if I just practiced my ass off, wrote a lot of great songs, and put myself where the action is, I could be successful.

That kind of "I can almost taste it" feeling is the most amazing motivation, isn't it?

My friends called me "the robot" because I never hung out, never partied, never sat around in the cafeteria eating with them. I'd just grab a peanut butter sandwich and get back to work. Couldn't waste a single minute on the road to success!

narag• 14 years ago

I had read this story the first time, and now I've remembered right away the question I couldn't ask then: without a Kimo near, is there any book that explain the same harmony knowledge and allows a no-speed-limit approach?

sivers43• 14 years ago

Closest book I've found on the "no speed limit" approach was Tony Robbins' “Awaken the Giant Within”. It could have just been the timing of when I read it. Tim Ferriss told me the book that changed the way he saw the world was “Maximum Achievement” by Brian Tracy, but when I read it, it seemed like conventional wisdom. So maybe it's just timing.

What I liked about Tony Robbins' message was this:

* - Change happens in an instant. People act like change takes years, but really it's almost always a key moment, an instant where you change the way you think about something, or make a promise to yourself to change the way you act (even though it feels strange at first). It may have taken years of procrastination to get to that pain point, but the change itself is instant.

* - You can change the way you think, so you can change the way you feel. People say, "I can't help the way I feel." or "This is just who I am." But you were an almost-blank slate when born, and most of what you think was just taught into you by someone, so you can un-do it, and replace it with any beliefs or even emotions that support your goal. He gives a great example of funerals in New Orleans: how they play sad music for a few minutes, then break into celebration. We think that death is universally sad, right? But this shows there's another way to think about it. So you can choose to feel happy about each person that rejects you ("one step closer!"), or choose to feel disgusted by the thought of procrastinating ("it's my mortal enemy!"), or whatever you choose to feel.

Actually there were probably 100 other things like this that changed the way I think, but just seem commonplace to me now because I've been thinking them so long.

Grab any of those classic self-help books like "Think and Grow Rich" or "Maximum Achievement" or "Awaken the Giant Within". When read at the right time in your life, it can really change everything.

(( Oh, just noticed you asked about harmony. All the stuff he taught be was very basic jazz harmony that almost any book on the subject will teach. The key was how fast he taught it. ))

komeng• 14 years ago

How do you handle stress and burnout? Even playing video games leads me to burnout. Thanks in advance. :)

sivers43• 14 years ago

Power through it. Bitch and scream, but then do what needs to be done.

Read “The Power of Full Engagement” : http://sivers.org/book/PowerOfFullEngagement

The authors worked with the best athletes and executives for years, and found that the best ones knew how to push themselves, then recuperate, push, recuperate. Take this same approach to your emotional, mental, physical, and even spiritual life, and it's a powerful metaphor. Think of sprints, not marathons. Be fully in whatever you're in, then give time to recuperate. But push futher each time, past your comfort zone, like a good exercise plan.

maheshs• 14 years ago

How to you focus? Do you also face issue with your focus some time in life?

sivers43• 14 years ago

See my other comment here about the drive to "be the next Zuckerberg".

Then look into the conditions of "flow" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

1. A clear set of goals : you know exactly what needs to be done next.

2. The task is not too easy, but not too hard. It's just at the edge of your ability.

3. The task gives you immediate feedback.

When you're engaged in that kind of work, you FOCUS! That's why video games are so addictive! They play up these 3 conditions so well. You have no problem focusing when playing a video game!

Also it's pretty crucial to have all this work be leading to a goal that you want so badly - whether it's to be a millionaire, to be famous, to be in Y Combinator, whatever.

Then it's also crucial to have this goal be so close that you know if you just keep working well that it's very likely you'll get there.

Get those situations lined up, and you'll have no problem focusing!

(( And yes, I'm embarrassed to admit I have a major problem with focus in my life right now. Apparently it's kind of common for recent mutli-millionaires who have surpassed all their previous goals. What's next? How can I top this? Do I want to? Do I just retire now? I have some new goals, but they're not burning goals. And I just realized they aren't matching steps #1, 2, 3, above. Hmmm.... ))

belnyc2• 14 years ago

Hi Derek,

Do you have any experiences with or knowledge of speed learning being used to learn the physical skills of playing an instrument?

sivers43• 14 years ago

No, but my buddy Josh Kaufman, author of the great “Personal MBA” book, is doing a new project (and book) about exactly that!

He's using speed-learning techniques to learn 6 different skills fast, and one of them is learning a new instrument.

Contact him here - http://joshkaufman.net/about/ - to see if he could give you some starter points for now, until his book comes out much later.

whyleyc3• 14 years ago

Great post - two questions:

1) What occupies your time these days Derek ?

2) Possibly related - what unfulfilled dreams do you still have ?

sivers43• 14 years ago

(1) : I'm spending most of my time learning Rails, Sinatra, Sequel, Nginx, JavaScript, jQuery, and Backbone, all back-to-back from books and test projects, quite intensely.

... because ...

(2) : If I die before turning these projects into reality, I'm going to be pissed-off! http://50pop.com/code

It's really my main drive these days, to finally launch these ideas I've had spec'd out for a long time.

I know I could just hire someone else to make them, but the joy (to me) is in the process, not the goal. I want to learn these programming techniques so well that I can quickly create all my future ideas, too.

brimpa• 14 years ago

How do I find my Kimo Williams?

sivers43• 14 years ago

I don't know. Any ideas, anyone?

pepijndevos2• 14 years ago

It's sad we don't generally have this master-apprentice system anymore.

Be the change you want to see, right? So maybe just start by being a Kimo yourself?

pepijndevos2• 14 years ago

Good to find this article again. I'm very autodidactic, and found universities so far disappointing for the lack of speed.

After you where taught everything, fast, why did you still go to Berklee? How was your time there?

sivers43• 14 years ago

College hardly taught me anything.

There were only a few good teachers. Most were half-assing it.

But once I realized that they weren't going to teach me anything, I got inspired. I realized that I was in an amazing place that held all the knowledge I want. I just had to go get it!

I treated it like a library. I pulled information out of people, recordings, books.

More than anything, it was a great environment for learning. It kept me 100% focused, every minute of every day, on getting better at music. No job or real-world stuff to distract me.

But that was also before the internet!

Now, I imagine that since the environment is the most important thing, you could find your killer environment in many places that don't charge tuition. Whether it's moving to Silicon Valley to be surrounded by your peers, or moving to India to study with a teacher.

Same reason some people go to a health spa retreat to get healthy. They could have just stayed at home to do it, but going to a dedicated place can really help.

kamaal• 14 years ago

How do you manage your time and track your productivity. If its not too personal can you give us a framework of your daily time table.

sivers43• 14 years ago

I was wondering that myself!

So I wrote my first Android app, to track every minute of every day. See https://github.com/50pop/NowNowNow if interested.

Most of my time these days is spent studying some new programming languages and techniques (Ruby, Rails, Sinatra, Sequel, JavaScript, jQuery, Backbone). Less time spent turning that learning into real creation. Soon... soon....

andmcgregor• 14 years ago

Great post Derek! What would be your best advice for someone with no technical skills (except html/css) who is going to start to learn how to code?

Since our interview in Singapore I've decided to devote myself 100% to learning to code (Rails to start with) during the second half of the year (I applied the 80/20 principal to my documentary re-interviews and travel).

When someone asks: "I really want to learn how to code, what should I do?" the answer is always the same: It's possible + you've just got to devote the time toward learning. If you are passionate about it you will stick with it. The answer has always been pretty clear for me: you just sit down and start learning how to code.

Basically, learning technical skills for me are kind of an inevitability rather than something I'm thinking about. I'm just looking for advice in regards to learning and efficiency. I really like your ideas + philosophy about self-learning, and remember you talking about learning methods in a Mixergy interview, e.g. spaced repetition software for language learning. Any similar advice about coding?

Basically, is there a way to increase the speed limit when learning to code?

Would you also recommend working on a web application while learning to code (since you started CD Baby in a similar way)?

Thanks in advance for the reply :)

sivers43• 14 years ago

The best approaches I've found are:

http://www.codeschool.com/

and

http://eloquentjavascript.net/

But I do think it's crucial to have some little project that's actually live and launched, that people are using, that you can add things to and constantly improve.

It helps you get immediate feedback, and remember why you're doing what you're doing: to make other people's lives better!

You don't want to just be learning in a vaccuum for months or years, not being of benefit to anyone except some maybe-future-self years from now.

Even if you start with some plain HTML site, and add nothing but a dumb "The time is now " + Time.now() -- then at least you've started, and you can improve from there.

As you go through Code School, or Eloquent JavaScript, or whatever other ways you learn, try to find a way to apply what you've learned to your site.

And lastly: learning by NECESSITY is the most effective way. If you HAVE to figure out how to make your site do some kind of function because you have people complaining to you that it's not, then you'll go figure out how to do it, and remember it with an intensity that you just don't get from, "OK, now it's time for Chapter 7."

megablast• 14 years ago

There are so many resources out there for people who want to code. Start doing a project, search for specific problems, you should be able to build something so quickly

rlander• 14 years ago

I guess this is a good opportunity to thank you. I read it a few years ago and it really changed the way I live.

My current startup only exists because of this post.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Whoo-hoo! That's awesome to hear. Thank you.

Sometimes I wonder why I take hours to write up and edit (and edit and edit) these blog posts on my site. Thanks for the reminder. I really appreciate it.

noname1232• 14 years ago

Hi Derek, I looked up your post when it first came out in 2009 and along with a bunch of other things, it pushed me to learn how to play guitar. Fast forward to 3+ years later, I'm now trying to move from simply drilling the different scale/modal patterns to really knowing how to improvise and solo. Was wondering what's your take on this? I've always been a very systematic person but I don't think drilling patterns are helping me very much. Let me know what you think.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Take the advice of Benny from http://www.fluentin3months.com/ Click around and read some of his stuff there.

Apply his language advice to playing.

One of his main points is to just throw yourself into conversation in a strange country. Even if you only know 3 words and aren't prepared. Be scared. Mess up. Be embarrassed, but keep going.

You can't just stay in the shed. You have to get out and play with others, be scared, mess up, get embarrassed, and keep going.

tricky• 14 years ago

Here's a random guy on the internet's take... Start simply by limiting yourself to 4 notes. Wail, hammer-on, pull-off, and bend them until you can make them talk. Add extra notes out of the scale after you get better...

For ex., under a minor chord pick the IV-V-VII-I notes (For Amin that's D-E-G-A, play that A an octave above root.) Just sit there and play those 4 notes with bends, pull offs, slide ups and mix up the rhythm until it gets some soul. Whatever you do, don't be systematic. beer helps... and record yourself so you can review for what works and what doesn't.

jcampbell12• 14 years ago

Are you still studying foreign languages? Do you have any tips for how to uncap the speed limit?

sivers43• 14 years ago

Still learning Chinese.

The best tips for beating the language-learning speed limit are from Benny : http://www.fluentin3months.com/about/

db42• 14 years ago

Hi Derek, I can't describe how much motivated I feel everytime I read something similar to this. But I just can't convert this motivation into actual practice/habits. Any advice ?

sivers43• 14 years ago

A young man went to Socrates and asked how he could gain wisdom.

Socrates walked the young man into a nearby lake. When the water was a few feet deep, Socrates suddly grabbed the young man and pushed his head under water and held it there.

At first the young man thought it was a joke, but as he was held under longer and longer, he became frantic. He struggled desperately to get free and his lungs burned for lack of oxygen.

Finally Socrates let him up, coughing and gasping for air.

Socrates then said, "When you desire wisdom with the same intensity that you desired to breathe, nothing will stop you from getting it."

It's the same with your motivation/practice/habits.

aangjie• 14 years ago

Darn it.. Sometimes i wish i had found a teacher like this. i.e: someone who could teach at my pace and not the class' average pace.

sivers43• 14 years ago

I think you have to go outside the school to find those kind of teachers. They've got an intrinsic motivation to prove they can teach better than the school's standard pace.

j452• 14 years ago

I had two massively influential mentors like this in middle and high school.

Both were teachers who cleared the path for me. Instead of the curriculum other students did I was given one that challenged me.

jseliger3• 14 years ago

In schools as they're currently structured, there's virtually no incentive to do this kind of thing, and quite strong disincentives to: taking special interest in a particular student is often viewed with sexually-tinged suspicion.

Most students, including the smarter ones, don't really understand this, which is also part of the problem; I wrote "How to get your professors' attention, along with coaching and mentoring" (http://jseliger.com/2010/10/02/how-to-get-your-professors%E2...) in part to remedy this knowledge deficit.

raheemm2• 14 years ago

Derek, wow you were a driven kid! What lead you to be in such a hurry to get through school?

sivers43• 14 years ago

I was in a hurry to get famous!

I wanted to be a rock star. Ain't no fun waiting 'round to be a millionaire! Gotta hurry.

silverbax88• 14 years ago

My favorite nugget:

" I run across kids all the time who say they want to be a great musician. I tell them I can help, and tell them to show up at my studio at 9am if they're serious. Almost nobody ever does."

I've learned this after so many years. Everyone talks about wanting to be successful. No one ever means it. Having someone just show up is a miracle.

unimpressive2• 14 years ago

As goes the famous Woody Allen quote that a large portion of life is just showing up. If a hacker gave me an offer like that I'd feel incredibly foolish not showing up. But then I guess you can discount that as talk until such a situation were to actually present itself.

But yeah, the disconnect between peoples words and their actions is laughably ridiculous.

matwood• 14 years ago

Actions speak louder than words.

A lot of people say a lot things, but few act. Showing up and doing something puts a person ahead of many.

dmd1492• 14 years ago

It's definitely helpful to understand that there is no real speed limit.

Conversely, I think it's also useful to think that there's no rush.

I sometimes get in my head that "if I don't have X millions by the time I'm 30, I'll be a failure."

I realized it's too stressful to think that way.

It's probably more important to think there are no speed requirements at all. Move as slow or as fast as you need/want.

Great post!

bkmartin• 14 years ago

I would say that maybe you should refine your metrics? What significance is x millions? Is that how success is defined? Or do you define success by doing something great? Typically when you do something great, in the world of products and business, the money follows. If you can turn out a great product in x months that gains hundreds of thousands or millions of users, would that be a better metric? I'm not saying your metric is wrong, I'm just challenging you to consider what the proper metric of success is for you.

The author didn't use $ as his measuring stick, he used a skill or status. So do you want to make $, or do you want to make awesome stuff, or do awesome things? Figure it out, then use it to define your metrics and drive your success. I can't see how, "there's no rush", can be remotely true. You only get x days, if day x is = tomorrow then you only have 1 more day. You never know when day x = tomorrow, so I would say there is always a rush.

dmd1492• 14 years ago

It's more the mindset I'm concerned with. An extrinsic outcome oriented mindset leads to a lot of stress. Whenever I've set demanding performance goals for myself within a short time frame like write 10 blog posts a month or something similar, I don't enjoy the process and I usually don't end up writing all 10.

On the other hand, if I say my goal is to get in the habit of writing one sentence everyday, the end result is much better and I'm less stressed about it.

I think process oriented goals can actually end up being more productive than outcome oriented goals.

steerb• 14 years ago

Is this a way of saying one should always live on the edge of incompetence? Edit: I ask this, because I have difficulties applying your ideas on fields where I don't have any good teachers around (e.g., lets say I want to become a better cook).

sivers43• 14 years ago

Sorry your question got a little lost & downvoted.

See another reply, above, about the difficulty in finding a great teacher.

raheemm2• 14 years ago

Derek, ended up reading the followup article about advice you gave to an incoming Berklee class where you mention:

Focus. Disconnect. Do not be distracted. This is your #1 most important challenge. If you master focus, you will be in control of your world. If you don't, it will control you.

Seems like focusing nowadays is almost impossible. There are so many time sucks, so close at hand.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Yes! I agree! This is one of our biggest current challenges!

Actually, Paul Graham has written two of the best essays about it:

http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

and

http://www.paulgraham.com/distraction.html

“Focus” by Leo Babauta is quite good, too: http://sivers.org/book/Focus

hef198982• 14 years ago

I'm almost jealous that you had a teacher as great as you did! We need more Kinos!!!

sivers43• 14 years ago

I'm jealous of my past self, too.

I wish I had a new Kimo in my life, that could help me deeply grok programming as intensely as he did.

hef198982• 14 years ago

I guess I'm even more pissed with myself then jealous, because the only time I actually had Kimo in my life I myself weren't ready for that. Now I think I would be, but the opportunity is gone...

So, let's hope you meet more than one Kimo in your life time!

f4stjack• 14 years ago

Great article, loved it. I also liked the booklist (http://sivers.org/book).

reason2• 14 years ago

This is a great article. My problem is, however, that I take it to the extreme: I set unrealistic goals for myself seeing as there are about 50 different things I want to learn outside of school. I almost always never meet my goals, and I become really discouraged.

It also seems like most successful people can point to an event, person, etc, in their past that served as a great turning point in putting them on the path to success. I just can't seem to put myself in a position for that to happen.

Derek, any tips?

vidar• 14 years ago

Just pick one thing and finish it. This does take discipline, but it is the obvious way forward.

sivers43• 14 years ago

First: Don't be a donkey. http://sivers.org/donkey

Also, ask yourself of those 50 different goals, which is something you HATE NOT doing? http://sivers.org/hatenot

Focus on that goal, and let go of the rest.

See my other reply here about the conditions of "flow". One is that you need to be getting immediate positive feedback on your actions. Maybe your 50 different goals aren't giving you any progress feedback, because they never get enough of your time to make progress?

Imagine kind of like some people take a 10-day meditation retreat, or a 7-day fast, maybe what you need is like a 10-day "ONLY ONE GOAL" retreat.

Pick the one thing that matters most, and only work towards that one thing. It's almost physically painful to ignore the other 49 at first, but soon the rewards from that one will be worth it. Then it feeds on itself, and perhaps could be your turning point.

reason2• 14 years ago

Awesome. The One Goal Retreat sounds like a great idea. I'll give it a shot - thanks!

Aushin2• 14 years ago

Is it possible to be a semi-donkey? I have, if I were to try to count, 4 major 'things' going on in my life right now. One is keeping fit, one is keeping up with free online learning resources like Udacity, one is my job, and one is learning to play guitar.

Are you suggesting that if I don't drop three of those, I won't succeed in any of them? That worries me a bit, because the job part takes up LOTS and LOTS of time, far more than the other three combined.

krmmalik4• 14 years ago

I think there are a whole load of kids out there that could benefit from a "no speed limit" policy. I think the larger problem is that there aren't enough teachers that can set the pace. I remember, as a kid, reading an article in the paper about how two 10 year old kids had completed a computing A level course (i'm from the UK). I was 11 myself at the time and so much wanted to do that course. My parents looked in many places and couldnt find a way for me to be able to take that course any sooner than what the national curriculum had prescribed. After a few years, i got distracted and lost my enthusiasm and determination.

I'm having the same problem learning Node. js right now. I had been trying to teach myself, but my progress was going rather slowly. Then along came a mentor that help me achieve in just a few hours what i wasn't able to achieve in over a month. And then he disappeared, and im stuck at snails pace again.

Maybe that's just the story of my life, or maybe that the story, period.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Great point! Finding an outstanding teacher is HARD! It's never clear where to look.

Great performers are usually not great teachers. And great teachers aren't always great performers themselves.

Any advice, anyone?

invalidOrTaken• 14 years ago

I think this will become a more and more common problem, especially in our field. Things move so fast that if you're just trying to keep up, you'll soon find yourself the most knowledgeable on the subject in your local area. This is great if you want to sound impressive, but not so great if you're trying to learn.

The best option is of course to find a Kimo. Failing that, getting really good at interacting with people online might be the best option; if you're learning something independently, you're probably learning it online, and if you're learning it online, then other learners(however few) are only a click away.

karterk2• 14 years ago

Have you tried hanging out in the node.js IRC channel? Help is just a step away! The node mailing lists are also pretty helpful.

You can also feel free to email me (email in profile) - I have been working on node for more than a year now on a decent sized project.

krmmalik4• 14 years ago

I tried the IRC channel about a year ago, but at that time i was so new to Node that i felt a little out of place. It seems you had to be at least intermediate level with node to really start chatting to people. You have to remember that i'm new to programming itself as well as Node. That said, i should repay the place a visit.

I was always worried about IRC etiquette. What i mean to say is - is it considered poor etiquette to just dive in and start asking for help?

Anyway - i think the larger problem for me hasnt been just getting stuck with Node - it's been more about knowing what is the next step to take in terms of the project since im new to development too. That's where having a mentor was very useful.

What are your thoughts?

grn• 14 years ago

Visit Kimo's website (http://www.kimowilliams.com) and listen to the music. It's really nice.

el_zorro• 14 years ago

I have found that this is very true. Right now, I'm studying physics at the undergraduate level. It's hard, but at the same time it doesn't feel challenging. I don't feel like I get very much out of my lessons. However, I did manage to get myself a job in one of the space science labs here on campus. I have learned so much from that work, simply because it is expected that I be as capable as the graduate students I work with. I have learned much, much more advanced physics and internalized it than I could ever do in my basic physics class. It's the challenge that educates you.

kickstart3• 14 years ago

Derek, this thread really resonates with me. I've been at a crossroads between 2 distinct paths for several years. Path A is a road I've been on for almost 14 yrs, and I've grown weary of it. W/o going into explanation, things have slowed on that road, and won't move forward w/o considerable effort. But I know exactly what needs to be done, there's little risk, it's very practical, and I will have company in the process, which I've come to realize is very important to me. On the other hand, I've always wondered about this Path B, w/o ever having taken any significant steps towards it. So I'd be starting from scratch, and yet it seems much less complex than Path A. I wouldn't have any company for probably a few years on Path B, so it's sure to be a lonely road at first. In the end it would be quite rewarding I'm sure, but I'd be letting down a lot of people by abondoning Path A. And I'm fairly certain that there's not enough time to pursue both Paths and do either one of them justice. Your thoughts on this??? Many thanks...

sivers43• 14 years ago

ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT, choose Path B.

Life is f'ing short! When you're old and looking back on your life, you'll mostly remember the changes, the big events. These big changes are the hooks you hang your memories on.

You'll always remember that 2012 is the year you chose Plan B. You'll remember this big change in your life, and all the other new experiences it's going to create.

This is part of living a full life! This is crucial!

14 years is plenty of time on Path A. You got the benefits out of it. You learned your lessons. You've been there, done that. Time to go!

I can't emphasize this enough. I think it's SO important.

Every time I've made a major change in my life, it's always turned out for the better. Sometimes I even thought they were failures, in the moment - (divorce, selling my company, etc) - but they always turned out wonderful.

kickstart3• 14 years ago

I was afraid you'd say that.

Opting for Path B would actually make life a lot easier than you realize. An endless list of very time-consuming tasks disappear if I finally get off Path A, and a huge weight would be lifted from my shoulders.

Of course Path B seems the obvious choice. But previous attempts on that path have several times ground to a halt, admittedly because I get in my own way. I can't help but wonder: why am I not pysched? Shouldn't my desire be enough to push me forward? If I knew I wanted it badly enough, would I even need to have this conversation with you?

Btw, you and I are acquainted - we went to Berklee together. It'll be something if this exchange ends up being the turning point. Thanks again for taking the time!

1_wave2• 14 years ago

Derek, What is the relationship of cell behavior to, 1. tribalism & 2. music (answer may be rendered in form of improvisation dance/one man silent opera)

sivers43• 14 years ago

I just did an interpretive dance to explain my answer.

Man, you shoulda seen it. I'm exhausted now, but it was awesome.

1_wave2• 14 years ago

I sensed something.. and channeled it into the omelet of another, a someone, somewhere..

stacymcardle• 14 years ago

I work so hard and am always just getting by. Never ahead of the game. This effects my happiness because I feel a lack of freedom when money is always such an issue. I'm looking for a way to accept what is and find happiness in other ways, than say, my dream of going to Europe. Meditation seems to calm me but I feel a sense of disgust in myself because I am not making a good living, even though I should be proud of myself for working so hard and being good at what I do. Thanks for any thoughts.

jonmb• 14 years ago

Sivers, just wanted to thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience. I know it has had an effect on me. Everyone, I highly recommend you check out Derek's "Uncommon Sense" videos, available free here: http://www.appsumo.com/sivers/

sivers43• 14 years ago

Thanks Jon! I really appreciate it. That's really nice to hear.

acak• 14 years ago

An interesting place to compare comments at.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945

GFischer• 14 years ago

I remembered having seen it here before (it's a classic and worth revisiting)

Previous discussion:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945

apa-sl• 14 years ago

Wow, great story! I have understood similar thing just recently a year ago but I am already "old" (28 years). Nevertheless I totally agree - there is no speed limit! Funny thing that lately I have made a second approach to the piano from the scratch and... it worked! After just 4 weeks I am far better that during the first attempt few years ago and few months of learning. This time I simply have found the right teacher which is constantly challenging me.

Hope that finally I will also manage to make it happen business wise with Y-Combinator! ;-)

richardk• 14 years ago

I don't buy this, I spent the first two years of my degree working as this guy suggests and completely burnt myself out. Now I take things easy, I'm still getting good grades and I'm a lot more relaxed. The other things I want to learn (not covered in my degree) can wait.

But... maybe I'm just a chump...

edw519• 14 years ago

Wow, what a great thread!

Just another thing that makes Hacker News so good: read something written by an expert and then engage in a discussion with that expert.

Derek, please go to www.askolo.com and register today. This is a brand new Hacker News inspired site built specifically for this purpose. These guys are trying to build and reach critical mass and your presence there would be greatly appreciated by me and many others, I'm sure.

villagefool• 14 years ago

This is the second time today that I hear about Askolo, seems more then a quincidence (heavy PR going on?). How are they different from Quora?

mds101• 14 years ago

I believe the difference is you ask a question to a specific person. And all these questions and answers are laid out on a single page in a nice interview style. And considering that most of the guys being asked and those doing the asking are all pretty smart guys, it makes for super interesting reading. Not that you would get any of that from their landing page though. Read the page for Patio11 to get an idea of how great it is.

jedc• 14 years ago

I can only imagine they're a YC startup, based on the people I see active there after I registered. (PG, JL, other YC partners) With Demo Day today, things are picking up PR-wise. :)

abbyroad9191• 14 years ago

When I go on to hacker news, I really don't expect the top comment to be a blatant advertisement for some site for the most part irrelevant to the article. Why are people upvoting this?

mmaunder• 14 years ago

Great blog entry and often quoted on HN: https://www.google.fr/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...

daspanters2• 14 years ago

Hi Derek, Loved your book, two quick questions, (1) Up to today, how far did you get in using RoR for your new projects and (2) what is your "Kimo's advise" on speed learning it ? (coming from the Microsoft world).

sivers43• 14 years ago

(1) I'm torn on Rails. It's so so so SO much ecosystem to learn just to make a basic web app. I find that I'm much more attracted to Sinatra. Also I prefer Sequel to ActiveRecord. Also, I really want to try playing with the architecture of a JSON REST API back-end and a JavaScript front-end (like Backbone.js). So for that, it seems Sinatra + Sequel suits me better. I'm trying this way for now, and if it doesn't work out, I'll commit a few hundred hours to learning Rails whole ecosystem. (Then I guess keeping up with it constantly.)

(2) Oooh. Good question. It wasn't advice that made the difference. It was a style of teaching. Standing above me, pushing me further than I knew, but somehow still on the edge of my abilities. Making me figure things out for myself instead of giving me the answer.

The closest I've seen someone come to systemizing it is Code School : http://www.codeschool.com/

I love that style of "here's a little info, now figure out this problem."

daspanters2• 14 years ago

You have no idea how valuable your responses are to me, I consider it a priviledge that you took the time to answer my questions, thank you very much! I like the idea also of going Sinatra, use Rails functionality if needed but otherwise keeping it simpler, there is always the chance to go with the full-blown version (Rails). Thanks again for sharing and taking the time!

j452• 14 years ago

Awesome thread.

I had two massively influential mentors like this in middle and high school.

Both were teachers who cleared the path for me. Instead of the curriculum other students did I was given one that challenged me. 95% if I got the new computer lab setup over the weekend. I was pushed to help integrate technology into all the schools clubs, which in turn required me to join a whack of clubs I never would have, nor made diversely interested friends.

While I was in school, much of this did happen outside the classroom. By saving my school 50 to 80,000/year in network administration costs. By creating (or saving) this much value I was supported with my own office, phone number, expense account to buy books or things for learning, attend conferences, and generally have my run of the school, including a pre-signed pad of late slips to use when I ran late from my commitments.

There was so much that got built as a byproduct of my time because I was going so fast. The difference 10 or 15 years later? I had far fewer responsibilities to other areas of my life (and others) back then.

Age inevitably eats up more time and it's a reality, if you want a balanced life with more than just work in it. This might be a kiss of death to some startup types, but it presented a new challenge to me and I ended up pursuing a consulting business to forever float me while chasing startup ideas.

S_A_P• 14 years ago

Derek,

One thing I have noticed about many of your blogs/talks is that you have an innate sense of optimism. Is this a learned trait of yours or was this something you picked up as you made your way through life and found success? While I dont feel that I am a pessimist, I do wish I could improve my sense of optimism/anything is possible with work/focus. Any tips?

Thanks and I always enjoy your posts.

sivers43• 14 years ago

My optimism is a little bit innate, but mostly learned.

It was something I got from Tony Robbins : that you can choose how you want to feel about anything. (We usually act like we can't help the way we feel. But we can consciously choose and change how we feel.)

No matter what happens, you can choose to ask, "What's great about this?" Even if you're not in the mood. Even if cranky or pissed-off, you can still force yourself to ask that, out of habit. Then the pessimism slowly dissolves, and you start to get optimistic again.

Then it feeds off itself. Somehow when you're optimistic, things go your way more often. Then that encourages you further, etc.

Actually these days I'm SO optimistic that it can work against me! I optimistically over-estimate my ability to do things. I optimistically think I'll just get fit and healthy through good intentions. Etc.

Sometimes a dose of painful pessimism can achieve more. (Though I guess if you realize that's the attitude that would be more helpful for you, you can choose to be pessimistic, too. As long as you know it's an intentional choice.)

SatvikBeri• 14 years ago

The book Succeed covers the topic of what kinds of optimism and pessimism help you achieve your goals pretty thoroughly (http://www.amazon.com/Succeed-How-Can-Reach-Goals/dp/0452297...). Two big takeaways:

1. Be optimistic when setting high level, year-long goals. But be pessimistic when drawing out all the implementation details of what you'll actually have to do to achieve those goals.

2. Be pessimistic about the difficulty of anything you want to achieve, but optimistic about your ability to conquer those difficulties.

kenrikm2• 14 years ago

I skipped the second part of my degree (I have an Associates) instead I went and got a job, I moved from the junior designer to the manager within less than a year (Managing people who had been there for 15+ years) and Art Director within two years where I ended up hiring an employee who had spent those two years in "The same program" that I would have been had I not ignored the "speed limit" to this day that employee is still just "a designer".

Remember, you make your own rules in life. Walls only exist in your head.

merraksh• 14 years ago

Previous discussion:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=970945

jseliger3• 14 years ago

I teach English Honors composition, and on the last day of each semester I send this as part of my "Last E-mail:"

Now for the small message that's really big. This is the post that could but probably won't change your life: "There’s no speed limit. (The lessons that changed my life)": http://sivers.org/kimo . I say "could," because most of you probably won't click the link; of those of you who do, most of you won't read the whole thing; of those of you who do, most of you won't get it; of those of you who do, most of you won't implement it. On the off chance that one out of 50 of you let this change your life, however, I'm sending it. The writer of "There's no speed limit" also wrote a book called Anything You Want, and reading it is probably one of the best ways you can spend an hour.

(This is after I tell them about the not clicking the link, not reading it, etc.) in class.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Wow! Thanks Jake! I really appreciate it.

jseliger3• 14 years ago

Thanks for writing Anything You Want. I've written about it on my blog (http://jseliger.com) and elsewhere; I'm actually working on an essay about how to think about science and becoming a scientist that mentions a section from "There Is No Speed Limit."

Good writing is good writing.

wkriski2• 14 years ago

Where are you? What are you doing now? What is your next big project?

Love Awaken the Giant Within. I've been trying to sell online guitar courses for many years, but now I've settled on doing well-paying remote IT contracts and taking months off in between to practice jazz guitar improvisation. I love sharing what I've learned but I guess it doesn't have to be a money maker, just something we all instinctively love to do.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Living in Singapore : http://sivers.org/singapore

Learning Rails, JavaScript, jQuery, Backbone.js

Programming these things: http://50pop.com/code

That's all. :-)

norswap• 14 years ago

Honestly, I don't believe it. I know nothing about music, but at least in my field of study (computer science) I doubt this can apply.

There is a limit and it is very plain: time. You can only soak in so much knowledge at a time, and knowing in theory is very different from knowing in practice (but you definitely need both). Practice takes time, especially if you practice to understand theory. You have to make mistakes, they are the single most important thing to understand something in my experience. You need the "haha" moment when you understand why something doesn't work and how it has driven theory/research in the field.

You can go maybe go faster than the computer science program at X. Maybe twice or thrice as fast, if you're gifted. But you cannot go as fast as you want, that is just wishful thinking.

felideon2• 14 years ago

Hi Derek, thanks for an awesome thread and your many enlightening blog posts. (I'm surprised you're surprised to see a post of yours here :P)

What advice do you have for a generalist? I feel I can learn things quickly, but I don't get great at anything -- maybe due to a lack of motivation and a surplus of procrastination.

I'm a back-end programmer who likes front-end development, only because I'm not a great UI designer (but would love to be). I also love playing the piano and singing, but I haven't had a lesson in 12 years. (People tell me I have a nice voice.) I'm bilingual and fluent in a third language, and I could easily learn more if I had more time.

The path I'm currently on is to keep working and practicing front-end development, and possibly learn how to design. As I hone those skills I plan to start building software to one day quit corporate America. On the other hand, I love the music as a hobby thing, but feel that I'm not great. (I'm surrounded by very talented musicians from my wife's side of the family.)

I'm not even sure what my question is, but any advice would be s/kind of cool/greatly appreciated/.

Edit: I think my problem is not knowing what to focus on, and whether or not I should specialize in something or keep learning new things. (And if so, how to choose that something.)

sivers43• 14 years ago

Felipe: Sorry I didn't see your question until hours later.

See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3761474

It's not your exact question, but similar, and led to some other comments in that thread.

I hope that helps.

felideon2• 14 years ago

No worries, I figured you had taken off. Thanks for responding and bringing your other comment to my attention — I glossed over it too quickly to make the connection.

Cheers, best of luck on your new projects.

killa_bee• 14 years ago

People who think "going to college is for chumps" (and there are a lot of you on HN) should do this instead. It's not that hard to graduate college in 2-3 years.

cfinger• 14 years ago

Absolutely love this. When you're really interested, find a teacher that will teach at your own rate. Too often the answer is "Don't worry about that, you'll learn it next semester". A phrase that you should never hear from a teacher!

Bjartr• 14 years ago

I am very jealous you found someone to guide and challenge you like that.

ivancdg• 14 years ago

It seems to me that one of the reasons CDBaby was/is so successful is because its primary customers are musicians, rather than consumers of music.

Strictly speaking CDBaby sells to both categories (it sells a service to musicians, and CDs to customers).

But to me, as a professional musician, it seems that people buy less music in product form now. Therefore the real customers for music-based products are...the musicians themselves.

There are more musicians than ever before. All are competing against one another. As a result, they are willing to spend their disposable income on promotions, marketing.

Providing a service like CDBaby's was a brilliant way of tapping into that emerging market.

What made it disruptive was: the price-point, the musician-friendly ethos, the dependability and speed of the customer service.

As a musician/entrepreneur, it seems to me that very few startups realize that they may be more successful asking musicians to pay for something than finding 'customers' for their 'products' in the old fashioned (read: recording industry) mold.

Of course spinning the story to sound musician friendly is delicate...and essential.

Do you see other opportunities for charging the growing contingent of musicians for a service that is worthwhile?

ricardobeat• 14 years ago

In most universities there is a speed limit: you can't "test out" of classes unless you've had them somewhere else, and pre-requisites, minimum optional credits and required internships prevent you from speeding through.

I really wish most courses would be 2 years long. Plenty of time to get the university experience and learn all you need, everyone's head is already far out after the 8th semester.

lukifer• 14 years ago

Hear, hear. When I tested into an advanced math class in 7th grade, I was able to learn the prerequisite semester of pre-algebra in less than an hour by sitting down with a great teacher and plowing through the material. But in my scholastic life, this experience was the exception, not the rule.

I understand the desire to teach to the slowest students; no one should ever be left behind, and faster does not inherently equal better. But we are doing both young people and society a disservice when we don't find ways for the quick learners to hit escape velocity so they can get to things that genuinely challenge them.

jhuni• 14 years ago

The speed of light (c) is the cosmic speed limit.

kpennell• 14 years ago

I really appreciate your writing, TED talks, ideas, and the humble and positive way in which you present your work.

I think one of the problems I struggled with the most with this type of thinking is feeling like I'm being conceited or thinking that "I'm special" when I try to remove speed limits. I've always learned a lot of things fairly fast but I think I limited myself by subconsciously not wanting to feel better than other people.

sivers43• 14 years ago

Yes! Absolutely! It takes a strong ego to say, "Hell I'm better than all these other mofos. Get out of my way, slow-pokes!"

It's got a competitive edge to it. You'd need that same attitude if competing in sports.

And, like sports, it doesn't mean you're a jerk for wanting to achieve as much as you can, or more than everyone else. It's just a relative-comparison thing that gives you an extra boost.

You need to feel you're special, that the rules don't apply to you, Neo. ☺

petegrif• 14 years ago

Just a GREAT post. Thanks.

acchow• 14 years ago

Uhhhh...ok, so you learned music theory quickly. Take a shot at any algebra (ring theory, algebraic topology) and you'll quickly discover there is a very concrete speed limit. (This also holds true for all fields of pure mathematics, its just more pronounced in algebra).

krosaen• 14 years ago

I wonder if the most important advice from this is to believe you can succeed rather than the idea of keeping a break-neck schedule. In my experience, success in learning something new starts with a sustainable daily practice; if you actually spend a half hour a day at something, you will see results in a couple of months. For instance, you could have made your way through the ml-class.org lectures and absorbed all of the material, or made your way through all the beginner lessons from justinguitar.com.

That's not to say someone couldn't spend 5 hours a day blazing through the ml-class.org lectures, but if spending 30 minutes a day means you can actually stick with it, that's a whole lot better than spending 5 hours a day for a week and then burning out. Same goes for fitness - 30 minutes a day of walking for the rest of your life is sooo much better than doing 2 weeks of p90x and burning out. If you can do p90x ever day for the rest of your life, kudos to you, but I've witness at least 2 friends buy and then burn out on p90x before getting any meaningful results.

dtbx• 14 years ago

It's called the Pygmalion effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

There's no speed limit (2009)

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