Megachurches are getting even bigger as churches close across the country

https://text.npr.org/1187460517

by rntn • 3 years ago

45 122 3 years ago

text.npr.org

damnesian• 3 years ago

Truth is relevant

Oh no, not THAT word.

Gatekeepers of faith really need to reconsider the toxic relationship this period in history has with that term and the peculiar concept truth has become.

mydriasis6• 3 years ago

It wasn't really explained what, exactly, they mean by that. Here's what their website says:

"We believe the Bible is God’s roadmap for life. Therefore, we value communicating the timeless truth of Scripture in cutting-edge, culturally relevant ways."[0]

[0] https://www.liquidchurch.com/about-liquid/values-beliefs/

scarface_746• 3 years ago

I bet they don’t follow all of the rules in the Old Testament especially the book of Leviticus.

haswell• 3 years ago

This page goes on to explain that they believe:

- God is the creator and ruler of the universe

- Jesus died and rose from the dead

- The authors of the Bible were supernaturally guided

- The only path to salvation is Jesus Christ

These are the same core messages taught by the fundamental baptist church of my youth, and I wonder what they mean by communicating in “culturally relevant, cutting-edge ways”.

It seems this claim is more about the format/technology they use, and not about a more enlightened framing of the Bible and Jesus. They continue to preach a sectarian/ethno-centric worldview (i.e. if you were born in the wrong country, you’re kinda screwed) that reifies the anthropomorphic “father god” understanding.

While I consider myself an atheist, a position solidified by my own time in the baptist church, Judaism has always impressed me for its ability to interpret its traditions not through a literal lens and continued clinging to scientifically and philosophically untenable viewpoints, but as a framework that needs to continually update its understanding of the world to remain relevant.

beardyw• 3 years ago

Because the Bible is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

As a Christian I find this to be particularly unnecessary. Do I have to believe the earth is 6000 years old, or the sun stopped moving, or there was a talking donkey. This kind of statement is only needed if you trying to justify your own doctrine by picking verses. I wish it would stop. Early Christians didn't even have a bible.

mydriasis6• 3 years ago

"You can just sort of wander in and be anonymous and worship there and be a spectator for as long as you want," he says. "But there's an almost equal number of people who are going out the back door because they didn't find their place."

I know a _lot_ of people who follow that first sentiment. In a smaller church there's so much to be done that you inevitably get sucked into helping the church just to survive, which means getting sucked into the politics of a small congregation.

For people who just want to show up and go to church and enjoy being at church, I can see why a large congregation would be a popular choice, and I know several people who attend them for exactly that reason.

cm2012• 3 years ago

I've seen this same dynamic.

chii• 3 years ago

i would've imagined the reason for church isn't just to worship, but to also find a community.

mydriasis6• 3 years ago

That's definitely a big part of it. At the same time, different people have different ideas of what that means. For many, being directly involved in the affairs and the machinery of the church is just too much -- they'd rather make new friends, go to bible study sessions, or have fun barbecues and stuff like the article mentions.

Don't get me wrong -- lots of people find their community through volunteering -- it's just that it can get to be a lot.

otikik• 3 years ago

But that involves what you and others want instead of what you want.

That’s socialism.

AnimalMuppet2• 3 years ago

It should be. (You can't obey all those commands that contain the words "one another" in isolation.)

But not everyone who walks in the door is looking for that. For at least some of the people, the purpose is just to worship. (And for those who are there for community, well, there are also commands to worship...)

wrp• 3 years ago

The issue is being able to choose your degree of involvement. I know people who like to attend church but won't if their only choice is a small one, because of the social demands made of them in a small group.

ozarker• 3 years ago

It’s interesting how wildly the “politics” of a small congregation can vary. I’ve been a part of a number of small/medium congregations and some have been very great and wholesome experiences where I felt uplifted and grateful to serve alongside others. And others have been terrible, gossipy and judgemental/racist/sexist/etc… Mind you these were all congregations of the same denomination in the same general region of the US. I truly wonder what makes the difference. I suspect the leadership of these congregations really set the precedent for what their congregation will act like.

mydriasis6• 3 years ago

I know exactly what you mean. I've seen churches actually split in half because of the direction that leadership was taking the church. It's wild!

Xeoncross2• 3 years ago

It's often communication patterns/style and leaderships goals/ideals that shape the org.

Same with companies.

lolinder• 3 years ago

I wonder the degree to which the dominance of the internet has contributed to this trend.

People are more and more accustomed to low-stakes anonymous social interaction with huge numbers of faceless people. These interactions feel simultaneously safer and far more stimulating than small communities.

Megachurches seem to have a similar appeal—you're not under any obligation to maintain a relationship, and at the same time the energy given off by thousands of people in one place probably feels more intensely spiritual for some people than can be had in a small congregation.

docandrew• 3 years ago

It’s easy to get in a mindset that the church isn’t something I’m a part of, but something that’s a service to be consumed and subscribed to. If I’m not happy with the “content” I find a different service. This is absolutely the wrong mentality but it’s hard to fight.

WorkerBee28474• 3 years ago

I know a _lot_ of people who follow that first sentiment. In a smaller church there's so much to be done that you inevitably get sucked into helping the church just to survive, which means getting sucked into the politics of a small congregation.

I recently had a conversation with a pastor and we talked about this. It also has to do with service size, aka venue size. The requirements to man a service are something like

- Sermon creation: 1+ pastor/week

- Creative enhancements: 1-3 people/week

- Sermon delivery: 1 pastor/2-3 services

- Live music: 5-10 people/2-3 services

- Sound: 1-2 people/2 services

- Lights: 1-2 people/2 services

- Kids: 1 person/10(?) kids/~1 service

- Front door hosts: 1 person/100(?) attendees/1 service

Some requirements scale per week, some scale per service, some per attendee. But with more services and larger venues you can save a lot in labor requirements.

taeric2• 3 years ago

There is something odd about joining a large congregation so that you don't have to congregate with the people around you. :D

mcphage4• 3 years ago

As an introvert, I was actually happier at a large university than I would have been at a smaller college, because I had more control over the degree to which I had to interact with other people. If I didn't really want to deal with people, I could sit in a busy space and everyone was just anonymous and coexisting.

RickJWagner• 3 years ago

My family has gone to some smaller churches and a few bigger ones. We're currently at a bigger one and have been for quite a while.

We like the quality of the preaching and the music. The smaller churches were better at some hands-on aspects, but it's hard for them to have the musicians (and the bench depth) that more population brings.

I'm waiting for people to figure out you can actually do quite a bit of good in a church. Food drives, clothing give-aways, etc. (Our church has a 'cars ministry' where we give away oil changes to needy families and sometimes give away donated cars.) It's tough to compete with Reddit and the like, where people can get a short-term feel of 'doing good' from behind a keyboard. But I don't think that's as 'real'. I'm hoping in time we'll see more people get excited about 'doing' in a hands-on manner.

draw_down• 3 years ago

My reservation is that these churches don’t seem to have any solid doctrinal foundation or any real consideration along those lines, so what you hear will probably just end up being “Republican / Democratic politics but in a church”.

But if it works for people then great. Especially young people; obviously traditional approaches to religion are not connecting with them.

cmurf• 3 years ago

Megachurches preach prosperity theology.

Book of Job conclusively says it's bullshit.

FredPret• 3 years ago

Their bank accounts say otherwise!

atdrummond2• 3 years ago

This is a pretty wide brush to paint with. I’m sure you could reasonably argue that even a majority preach prosperity gospel but there are plenty of megachurches affiliated with mainstream/more traditional denominations for whom said teachings are heretical.

(I am an Orthodox convert personally, so I have no dog in this fight.)

stuartjohnson12• 3 years ago

As a cynic, it would genuinely change my view in a significant way if you could highlight examples of some megachurches whose owners don't seem to be psychopaths out to exploit as man vulnerable people with religion as possible.

scarface_746• 3 years ago

Churches don’t get large by constantly telling you that you’re a horrible person, you should live a life of poverty and give all of your worldly possessions to the poor.

yieldcrv2• 3 years ago

Anyone that’s read the book knows you can interpret that in any way you want for your benefit. Especially amongst the illiterate.

Easiest example: Everything in the Old Testament is invalid (when inconvenient) so the Book of Job is invalid too since it is in the Old Testament.

God Type-0 no longer makes unsolicited bets with Satan for entertainment purposes. God Type-2 was born (again) and basks all its followers in love!

synetic9• 3 years ago

You are absolutely correct. I’ve heard many people quote Leviticus as evidence that homosexuality is wrong but then also think it’s an abhorrent idea that a woman who is a virgin that is raped must marry her rapist.

bdcravens• 3 years ago

Not necessarily true. I haven't been attended in years, but I used to go a "megachurch" (a bit on smaller side, about 5000 each Sunday) that preached a fairly Baptist-core message.

dahfizz5• 3 years ago

I mean, Joel Osteen definitely does. I don't think its fair to call all large churches bullshit.

Their website seems genuine https://www.liquidchurch.com/about-liquid/

andsoitis2• 3 years ago

It is curious how they define God as being co-equal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They then go into describing the Son and the Holy Spirit, but not the Father.

It would be nice if they also described the Father who is fully 1/3 of God.

Odd.

https://www.liquidchurch.com/about-liquid/values-beliefs/

atchoo2• 3 years ago

Oh yeah?

https://liquidchurch.com/blogs/multiply-your-money

When we trust God with our finances, we open ourselves to His blessings and provision. In the story of the fishes and loaves, Jesus demonstrated His power to multiply resources beyond human capability. He did not just provide enough food for the crowd, but there were plenty of leftovers. It proves God can work miracles with our finances, too
When we tithe, we demonstrate our trust in God for our needs. Tithing is not just about giving 10% of our income to the church but also giving our first fruits to God. When we give our first fruits, we put God first in our lives and acknowledge Him as the source of all our blessings. It is vitally important to remember; God must bless it before it can multiply in your hands.
Tithing is just the beginning of our giving journey. God wants us to go above and beyond our tithes by giving offerings. Offerings are gifts to God over and above our tithes, demonstrating our willingness to be generous with our resources. When we give offerings, we tell God that we trust Him to multiply our resources and use them for His glory!
Let us be faithful stewards of God's blessings and use them to make a difference. Remember, only what is given away can multiply!

Fucking grim. Most of these charasmatic churches are grifts. They focus on evangelical growth and tithing like an MLM. Only the gullible would give any them the benefit of doubt.

synetic9• 3 years ago

I don’t intend to come across as combative. I agree prosperity theology is nonsense from a Bible point of view. However, as I see things, a very large percentage of Christians and Christian churches act in ways contrary to Biblical teaching. Isn’t it the case that everyone pretty much ignores the parts they don’t like and clings to the parts that they do like? Prosperity theology isn’t to your liking so you condemn it. For others it resonates with them. I think it’s understandable since every religious person chooses the parts they follow and disregards the parts they don’t like. (I’m an atheist so I’m not approaching this from a religious perspective.)

Xeoncross2• 3 years ago

Christian churches act in ways contrary to Biblical teaching

I think you're spot on. Between culture and money, there are is a lot of pressure to fit your religion into your existing communities or lifestyle.

Same is true of my Hindu and Muslim friends who, at a certain net-worth or moving to a certain geographic area are suddenly much less interested in what their religions say.

"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also"

luisgvv• 3 years ago

When I traveled my first time abroad I was astonished at how big some churches are in other countries both in congregation and building size.

At the end of the day they operate the same way a business does, once you scale your product your org becomes bigger and cluttered, therefore some people prefer a more "customized" religious experience and end up abandoning these megachurches

dahfizz5• 3 years ago

"Church is fun"... Church barbecues, pizza and movie nights are all part of the mix. On Sundays, "it's loud. ... it's casual. People can wear flip-flops and drink coffee,"

Bingo! Religion has always been primarily about community. The shared morals and traditions are in service to making a stronger community. Its a book club on steroids. If your church is boring and asocial, nobody will want to attend.

Filligree2• 3 years ago

I could never get past the 'belief' part.

If churches didn't require you to believe, maybe they'd have more attendees.

giraffe_lady3• 3 years ago

Then there's nothing to tie that community together and it eventually gets deprioritized or simply subsumed into the general culture.

Look at "creedless" denominations over time to see how it plays out. There's no specific belief you need to hold to be a quaker for example, and as a result some quaker practices have been absorbed into other protestant churches while quakerism itself is almost dead.

yardie• 3 years ago

I don't think you are required to believe to attend. I've had a few conversations with clergy and I'm pretty sure they aren't sure they believe themselves. What they do have in abundance is faith.

gg82• 3 years ago

You can go to church without believing... but believing is the whole point of church.

lozenge• 3 years ago

The Universal Unitarians don't require it. Actually, a lot of churches operate on "don't ask don't tell"

OkayPhysicist3• 3 years ago

That's called a social club. Big classics are the fraternal orders, like the Masons and Oddfellows, but there are plenty of others. I can assure you, they don't get more attendees.

pydry• 3 years ago

The more ridiculous the beliefs the tighter knit the community, too.

It's harder to bond over sensible, obvious things that outsiders would agree with.

There's always been a tension between community bonds and reality.

paulryanrogers6• 3 years ago

Community existed long before religion. I'd guess it's more an extention of the brain trying to explain unexpected phenomenon, and grifters learning to exploit that. The community aspects are how the grift is marketed.

dahfizz5• 3 years ago

[citation needed]. Religion is as old as civilization, all the way back to Mesopotamia.

I think you're right that it stems from a need to explain the unknown, which is why with modern science we have atheism on the rise. But I don't think your pessimism is entirely warranted. A church hosting a free BBQ is not "grifting"

pseg134• 3 years ago

That is an unfounded statement. Religion and even organized religion has existed almost exactly as long as modern humans.

carlosjobim• 3 years ago

Religion or strong ideology is the only way to expand your community at a faster rate than women can make children. If tribes competed with each other for territory or power, they were probably already at maximum fertility, and needed other methods to get more manpower faster.

sandworm101• 3 years ago

> The shared morals and traditions are in service to making a stronger community.

For a great many it is also about exclusion, a purification of that community. When I lived in the US I attended several community events (BBQs, sports days and such) with friends who were "in" a local church. It was all fun until someone got wind of the new guy with a non-local accent. Then I would be set upon by people asking probing questions to nail down my religious status, questions for which there are never good answers. Once I left early as my outsider status was evidently disruptive (a "leader" was loudly trying to convert me.) I also went to a big Mormon BBQ event which was, unexpectedly, 100% different. They just accepted the presence of an outsider and didn't feel the need to even bring it up. But for some reason they did keep offering me coffee.

1MachineElf• 3 years ago

My (good!) experience is that churches are very much about community, however, I believe there is an interesting point to consider about them as institutions of control. Moreso in the context of European history, but also perhaps in the context of megachurches as described in this article. Friedrich Nietzche proposed that Christianity instills "slave morality" which redefined "good" as altruistic, patient, meek, humble, etc. and "evil" as greedy, violent, jealous, etc. Prior to Christianity, Nietzche cites that European "human morality" equated "good" with power, ambition, wealth, etc. and "bad" with weakness, apathy, poverty, etc. While it's true that Nietzche is a flawed character, I'd say it's worthwhile to examine how these competing moral codes are present within Christianity. Historically, one may see the Catholic church, or the Church of England, as instilling the "slave morality" while their leaders enjoy the base morality for themselves. Consider the Spanish inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, or perhaps even Manifest Destiny - which moral code was primarily practiced by those who led these, and which moral code was primarily practiced by those who supported them? I believe the same cognitive dissonance is at play with these megachurches. Just something to consider, not critiquing Christianity in theory, just how things have/are playing out. It's also perfectly reasonable as a Christian to critique "human morality" as the original sin which Christian morality attempts to solve.

notacoward• 3 years ago

The fun is the hook, but the congregants are still fish. David French recently wrote an article about how right-wingers - and particularly evangelicals - are blind to the way their religious and political institutions (with too little separation between them) spread hate and lies. What they see is the bonds of fun and love among their own kind, with churches often the center of that. It's hard to think of fun, likeable people doing bad things, so they just don't.

https://archive.is/P1Cf5

In that context, the rise of megachurches is a Very Bad Thing. In my experience - being from a family with multiple generations of missionaries and pastors in that tradition - these types of unaffiliated churches often tend toward cults of personality, spreading a message that is at best oblivious to the concerns of anyone outside their extremely homogeneous congregations. True hate from the pulpit is rare, but fear of others and belief in literal devils trying to drive an anti-faith agenda are quite common. People thinking one's own community is special or blessed usually goes hand in hand with an implication that The Other is defective or diabolical. While not harmful in itself, it's a stepping stone to some pretty bad places.

It's a common error to think that repressive regimes are unstintingly serious. In fact, the worst elements can never have their way without the support of a broader community, which they often nurture through recreation, religion, etc. "Church is fun" can be a good thing, but it doesn't mean those "fun" churches' effect on the body politic is a good one.

skellyclock• 3 years ago

Just an anecdote but I'm seeing more people in my circle turn to Orthodoxy as protestants do their usual thing and we see some serious issues in the Catholic Church. Here are some nice 'anti-modernist papal encyclicals' if the low IQ approach of protestantism or the growing modernism in Catholicism is bothering you:

On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism (Mirari vos, 1832) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm

On the Restoration of Christian Philosophy (Aeterni Patris, 1879) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13cph.htm

On Capital and Labor (Rerum novarum, 1891) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13rerum.htm

On the Doctrine of the Modernists (Pascendi Dominici gregis, 1907) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10pasce.htm

On Christian Marriage (Casti connubii, 1930) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11casti.htm

On Atheistic Communism (Divini Redemptoris, 1937) - https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11divin.htm

atdrummond2• 3 years ago

I am quite happy with having converted to Orthodoxy (baptized as a child, raised in Reform Judaism) and there are some wonderful Church communities in the Bay Area. Happy to discuss my experience if people want to contact me - I credit my faith with saving my life from addiction and homelessness. I’m now getting married next year and planning our family.

paulryanrogers6• 3 years ago

...low IQ approach of protestantism...

In all my decades of studying within the faith never have I found anything high IQ about any of it; protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, etc. Lots of big words, tomes of wasted ink, and authoritative names though.

giraffe_lady3• 3 years ago

I'm eastern orthodox and we are definitely accumulating a lot of disaffected catholics and ex-evangelicals. I think the intense structure appeals to a lot of people from the second group, since they're coming from traditions that leave a lot to the individual which can be stifling in its own way. Plus the aesthetics obviously.

IMO this is a new challenge for the church though and one we're not addressing adequately. A lot of people are coming to EO because they are on some culture war RETVRN bullshit and considered us "based" or whatever. Priests often aren't effectively catechizing them and they still hold doctrinally evangelical beliefs completely foreign to the orthodox tradition.

And too many priests are naively subscribed to "any growth good growth," while a good handful of priests are openly aligning with the protestant far right and diving deep into culture war issues themselves.

It's good to see more young people in the church but the whole thing has me worried. I think there's a real possibility we become just another american christianity, compromised in the same ways, active for the same causes, but with icons and incense.

monero-xmr• 3 years ago

My (Catholic) church in the heart of a major American city is very packed, with lots of young people and children. It could be we are just the remnants but it feels like a lot of energy.

Pxtl• 3 years ago

heart of a major American city

This is the important distinction. The megachurch is an artifact of suburban sprawl, like the outlet mall.

toomuchtodo• 3 years ago

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-re...

bitsinthesky2• 3 years ago

Thanks for sharing the text link.

The first church mentioned has a fancy website https://liquidchurch.com/ and mobile app with content for all ages. I was worried about the warping this will have on the political landscape, with such a centralized institution shaping morality, but from a brief tour of their website they do seem non political on the surface.

Will mega churches increase accountability as more eyeballs critique the leadership, while smaller, more politically diverse churches get starved out? Or with more power will they become more corrupt?

I had read an article previously about how American churches, needing more attendees, have become more political to pull in the numbers. I remember a quote saying something along the lines of the pastor "gets them for an hour a week, and talk radio gets them for the rest of the week." and so therefore the church begins to mimik the style and topics of talk radio. Will megachurches pull in so much money they don't need to worry about competing and won't further the polarization of the people?

CharlesW2• 3 years ago

…from a brief tour of their website they do seem non political on the surface.

Churches must maintain that public facade¹, but my experience is that private political grooming is common.

¹ https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/charities-churches-and-politics

DanielBMarkham• 3 years ago

There's some interesting team/org organizational dynamics going on in churches in the U.S.

From the outside, it appears that these megachurches are offering sort of an AWS for religion, facilitating small-group worship that happens in all kinds of ways. So you get the Agile Open Spaces idea, where folks can self-select in-or-out and topics to dive into, combined with the small group worship concept.

That's just a guess. I don't do churches. But the concept of an overall "thing" that people align to, then a very large group of people in another kind of "thing", and finally some sort of small-scale high-value interaction (for all three levels) is fascinating and not, in my opinion, unique to religion.

andsoitis2• 3 years ago

Industrialization of the soul.

AbrahamParangi• 3 years ago

My pet theory is that the decline of churches has less to do with the secularization of culture and more to do with the fact that they're not very entertaining or engaging relative to whatever else you could be doing on your weekend.

The "engagingness" of entertainment has been increasing in absolute terms for a while now, and it really picked up in the 20th century. Meanwhile, the "engagingness" of mainstream religion has not kept pace. It is perhaps indicative that those groups of people best able to keep devout religious practices also typically shun all the rest of consumer entertainment.

In that frame, megachurches represent an evolution to survive this higher-engagement ecosystem. To compete, church must be more fun, which in this case means turning into a giant pep-rally/rock concert.

CharlesW2• 3 years ago

This is a really interesting point — Facebook vs. congregation, Netflix vs. meditation, etc.

tivert• 3 years ago

My pet theory is that the decline of churches has less to do with the secularization of culture and more to do with the fact that they're not very entertaining or engaging relative to whatever else you could be doing on your weekend.

The (excellent) book Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman made a similar point. Basically, the characteristics of communication mediums have a strong influence on the content (e.g. television has to entertain), and as certain mediums get popular, they set up corrosive expectations (e.g. learning has to be fun, so people reject learning things that may be important and valuable but aren't entertaining).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

joshstrange2• 3 years ago

I have very negative feelings about most organized religion but I have to say the community aspect is something I hate throwing out with the bathwater. I have pretty much fully replaced it with a good group of friends that gets together a minimum of once a week for a potluck. In a lot of ways it's better: less drama, no internal-politics, etc and it ticks all the boxes for me but I can imagine if I had kids I'd feel that they weren't getting the same experience I had growing up w.r.t. kids/friends their age (not that they'd need to have the same experience as me and I'd look for other outlets for friends/peers for them).

In the meantime my friend group half-jokes about buying some land and all living on it together (really, I think with the right prompting/circumstances we'd do it), a commune if you will. We have also joked about starting our own "religion" for tax purposes. I wonder if this is how some cults start? I think a lot of people in my generation yearn for this kind connection/community/closeness since church is a non-starter (at least for people I associate with).

mos_basik• 3 years ago

Are you Athabaskan? My friend group also half-jokes about buying land and living as a commune, and one of them is named Josh :)

joshstrange2• 3 years ago

I am not but that’s a funny coincidence.

bitsinthesky2• 3 years ago

Don’t worry, capital c Cults require some more intense personality traits and manipulative/abusive practices, preying on those in some kind of need. Usually accompanied by a strong whiff of narcissism :)

xnx• 3 years ago

And they don't pay taxes

Simulacra• 3 years ago

"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."

L. Ron Hubbard

smitty1e• 3 years ago

The one experience I had in this vein makes the term a misnomer. Most of this ilk--I infer--are really like a pomegranate. Many smaller groups with leaders that the megachurch acts as an umbrella over. The megachurch will vector newer visitors to pick one off the menu and attach for the social connectedness that we all need but rarely vocalize.

My (relatively puny) outfit has been a user of https://www.planningcenter.com/ for a couple of years, and I think that it has much traction amongst larger ones.

Megachurches are getting even bigger as churches close across the country

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