Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/20/us/titanic-shipwreck-vessel-missing-tuesday/index.html

by _iven_ • 3 years ago

63 100 3 years ago

theossuary• 3 years ago

This makes me think of the search for the USS Thresher, a US Navy submarine. After the sub sank, the Seawolf was one of the Navy ships that went looking for it. Sonar operators on the Seawolf heard what they thought were manually operated SOS signals, banging of metal on metal, and eventually something resembling a voice. While these reports have started some conspiracy theories, the sonar readings from the initial sinking and wreckage indicates the Thresher imploded near instantly at depth, which would be unsurvivable for any amount of time.

Honestly the chance of anyone being alive in the Titan is about as close to zero as you get; these rescuers want so badly to save them that they're hearing what they want to.

I hope I'm wrong though.

https://m.soundcloud.com/user-798629330/episode-261-the-uss-...

https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac

peterbecich• 3 years ago

The last section of this article "Update, July 15" addresses those points about the Thresher tragedy: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41523/uss-threshers-cr...

AustinDev• 3 years ago

Wow, this is the worst possible situation, if true. They're likely to run out of breathable air long before they can be rescued. I'm hoping they make it out but, I personally would have opted for an implosion if I was in the same situation. The suffering they're enduring, if actually alive, is pretty rare.

I can't imagine what is potentially going through their heads. If they are alive the 8 hour delay from Oceangate on reporting the incident to the USCG is likely going to result in massive liability, possibly criminal. Deep Sea rescues are extremely improbable and minutes matter let alone hours.

I have a hard time believing that this report is accurate but, it's possible. My best friend works at the lab that tests and certifies deep sea vessels for the navy, manned and unmanned, and he's 99% sure they're already gone due to an implosion. He actually was involved in the testing of one of their prototypes so has a pretty intimate knowledge of their construction. Cyclical fatigue on the carbon fiber hull is the likely culprit if such was their fate.

graypegg• 3 years ago

Being in an enclosed space, knowing no one else can hear you, surrounded by people probably having a panic attack, at the bottom of the ocean in total darkness while you are slowly noticing the air getting harder and harder to breathe… yeah I would’ve taken the hull imploding over 80-something hours of that.

One guy is down there with his 19yo son… empathy is a powerful thing, imagining that situation just makes my heart sink.

flangola7• 3 years ago

It is also close to freezing temperatures

lostlogin• 3 years ago

Being in an enclosed space, knowing no one else can hear you, surrounded by people probably having a panic attack, at the bottom of the ocean in total darkness while you are slowly noticing the air getting harder and harder to breathe…

I had an old guy tell me about why he was claustrophobic once. Closed doors and the dark were a challenge.

He got depth charged in a submarine during WWII. The lights got blown out, water was coming in etc.

Everyone survived but it had a marked effect on him.

HWR_145• 3 years ago

They have another ~30 hours of air.

The biggest hope is that they are not terribly deep trapped near the surface and can be located in that time.

p-e-w• 3 years ago

How could they be trapped "near" the surface? That would require the sub to maintain buoyancy precisely, which seems unlikely without active systems.

madaxe_again4• 3 years ago

Air is great and all, but hypothermia will get them first.

rasz2• 3 years ago

Much more if cannibalism set in.

numpad04• 3 years ago

Isn't it just a relatively doable matter, of hooking up a wire by a robot and pulling out to the surface, assuming a suitable robot can be flown and deployed soon enough?

ablation• 3 years ago

It's ~12,500ft (~3,800m) down on the seabed at this point, most likely. Nothing is "relatively doable" at these depths and associated conditions.

upon_drumhead• 3 years ago

According to Wikipedia

The vessel was expected to resurface at 18:10 ADT.[16] Authorities were notified about the incident at 18:35 ADT.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incid...

One could argue that the delay once communications were lost is reasonable until the sub was overdue back.

gr8flyer10115• 3 years ago

I don't think anyone can actually take the company to court, the passengers signed their lives away (pardon the pun), to be able to take that ride to the Titanic. I would be curious to know if it had a backup propulsion system in case the primary failed?

rirze• 3 years ago

I have a dumb idea; how hard is it to add a location tracker to these kind of subs? Does the high pressure make this incredibly hard to add?

bboygravity• 3 years ago

How would you track your location underwater? What's your reference?

They don't have any GPS signal down there...

XorNot2• 3 years ago

With sonar. The submarine doesn't have to locate itself, it just needs to be active pinging and it can be triangulated.

Radio doesn't work underwater, but sound actually travels incredibly far (hence why military subs go all out with noise reductions).

Edit: I mean the real question is why the hell does this thing not have some type of system like this already? You know the upfront expected dive time, so set a couple of noisemakers on the exterior hull to go off after you exceed it.

jamesralph8555• 3 years ago

Its not the pressure, but the fact water blocks radio waves. Submarines can’t get GPS signals or transmit their location. Submarines have to rely on other means such as IMUs to track their own location.

yayitswei• 3 years ago

What about a signal flare that floats to the surface?

yellow_lead• 3 years ago

Just add a line. It's only 2 miles.

prox3• 3 years ago

Apparently having a tether is not a bad option. So what’s the reason they didn’t go for it?

darkteflon• 3 years ago

I’ve been wondering this too, and surprised that none of the news reports have addressed it. Would love to hear from someone knowledgeable on whether it’s feasible and what the limitations and trade-offs are (eg, unreasonably high risk of entanglement).

truemotive• 3 years ago

The most frustrating is reading somewhere, I can't remember, that there was some discussion about beacons after having lost comms during an excursion in the past. The conversation apparently didn't get there.

My first proper job in my career was IT for a maritime navigation company. This must have been around 2000, and we were selling these to normal people that have boats. I can't believe they did not integrate EPIRB into something like this triggered by an emergency trigger within the vehicle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_...

The facts that even if the unclear "7 ways" to surface in case of emergency, that a) the ship doesn't know where the submersible is located, which GPS would easily solve for and b) if it does manage to use one of these seven ways there's no way to exit the vehicle is absolutely criminal.

prmoustache3• 3 years ago

I am not even sure why we are looking for them, I don't think there is any way to setup rescue equipment that can go low enough to help them and drag that submersible out of the water before they would run out of oxygen.

dan_mctree• 3 years ago

Maybe they could attach a cable and drag it up to a ship? I'm sure there's ways to help these people with joined effort

prmoustache3• 3 years ago

And with which equipment would you do that? Are there even submersibles with adequate tooling available in a small enough radius?

I've followed an OceanGate Titanic mission where a popular travel blogger was participating in and from what I understood there aren't many submersible vessels in the world able to go so low, let alone with functionnal tools. It is not like you can open the door to a diver for him to attach a cable, pressure is just too high.

benjaminwai• 3 years ago

The French research ship Atalante is almost there:

"It carries the Victor 6000 autonomous robot, capable of descending to a depth of 6,000 metres, beyond the 3,800 metres of the wreck's position"

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/france-send-ship-titani...

Last I checked on MarineTraffic Atalante was about 100NM away from site. Would it not help?

prmoustache3• 3 years ago

That is good but probably one of the best/only tools for the job. It is probably already too late though.

All that is still theory, we don't even know if the submersible isn't already destroyed.

summarity• 3 years ago

More details about the sub's life support and surfacing systems from a CBS reporter who was on an expedition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt7H2tF76w

mpreda2• 3 years ago

I wonder why the submersible was not equipped with redundant "self surface" systems. I imagine the overall density of this submersible to be close to that of water. Such that dropping some amount of ballast (like the metallic rails underneath) may lighten it enough to self-surface. In addition, some emergency "baloons" may be fitted, inflatable in an emergency by CO2 capsules to resurface. And an emergency system to open the sub (e.g. by blowing up a hole somewhere convenient) could be added as well to allow exit once at surface.

gene91• 3 years ago

Not sure whether it’s applicable here. But when learning scuba diving, we were taught (or rather reminded of, from middle school physics) that a balloon would become bigger as one gets closer to the surface. A balloon 90m under water will be 10X the size when it’s at surface. Therefore, using a balloon for emergency surfacing will lead to a monotonically increasing acceleration rate (which means you’ll going be too fast), or probably bursting the balloon half way through.

mpreda2• 3 years ago

Indeed the pressure is huge down there, and this may represent a challange in inflating the ballon in the first place. Looking up the numbers, it seems the pressure at the Titanic is about 400bar, while the pressure of a CO2 cartdrige is about 800bar, so that works.

About the baloon becoming larger as it surfaces, a pressure release valve that vents the baloon based on the pressure differential with the exterior (water) may do the trick.

rasz2• 3 years ago

Use a bell shaped contraption instead of a balloon.

madaxe_again4• 3 years ago

It is. It has electromagnetic drop weights that are meant to detach on power failure.

Thing is, when it’s out of the water and the power is off, there’s going to be a mechanism, bolts or dogs or zip ties or whatever, to keep them on - and someone has to remember to detach those as part of the launch.

numpad04• 3 years ago

It'll be another appaling surprise if they didnt have a panel or box along a checklist, either inside the sub or next to a control panel to store and verify all those safety pins and locks.

prox3• 3 years ago

Here is a nice article:

The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe'

https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about...

hef19898• 3 years ago

In acynical way, it is fitting. Titanic was not the worst marine desaster in term of life lost. But since it was the rich and the celebrities who died on tha Titanic, well, it was enough to tackle safety.

When safety issues cause the loss of life, but don't for some reason grab the headlines in specific ways, nobody cares.

totetsu• 3 years ago

What is it about this type of story that is so attention grabbing? Kids trapped in cave, Plane missing in jungle, etc etc. Is there a name for this?

Pragmatically speaking, this is of little consequence to most people, there are greater human tragedies going on, there are more catastrophic engineering failures happening, more egregious negligence,.. something about the unknown element of it.

silisili3• 3 years ago

In this case, it's because everyone on board was filthy rich.

If it were me or you, we'd be sleeping with the fishes without mention.

4gotunameagain• 3 years ago

The parent comment already made the connection to the thai kids cave, whose story went around the world. So this part does not play a role about the sensationalism of the story. About the magnitude of the search and rescue effort.. It might do

numpad04• 3 years ago

None of Chillean miners were filthy rich.

cracrecry• 3 years ago

What is it about this type of story that is so attention grabbing?

In this particular story: Those guys are pioneers, they are doing something almost nobody has done before, like going deep down 4 kilometres under the surface of the ocean.

This takes guts. And people admire those that have the guts. It is primal instinct, as the people that take risks and survive usually makes the tribe or society improve.

Things that are routine today like planes flying without crashing down or reusable rockets or going to the moon were at some time extremely risky.

evgen2• 3 years ago

Those guys are pioneers, they are doing something almost nobody has done before, like going deep down 4 kilometres under the surface of the ocean.

They are rich tourists going down to look at a famous shipwreck, the same as hundreds of actual professionals have done. Much like the rich tourists who are mostly carried up Everest this does not take guts or ability, it takes a fat wallet and nothing more. Actually, it probably takes more ego than intelligence if you get into the craft they took down now that we have learned more about its potential safety flaws.

The nature of the event is why we are paying attention. The people trapped and how it happened is icing on the cake, but we would all still be watching if it was the Alvin submersible and some university researchers inside. To be honest we would probably care more if it was actual professionals who were at risk doing work to expand human knowledge instead of a tourist day-trip; I certainly would actually care about the outcome in that case, while I can't be bothered to care one way or the other if this particular group of tourists lives or dies.

Hamuko• 3 years ago

I think a lot of it is schadenfreude. A bunch of rich people pay out their ass to get in a jerryrigged submarine to look at a sunken boat and end up becoming one.

gr8flyer10115• 3 years ago

You pretty much nailed it!

GvSAQS5G2NKJ2• 3 years ago

Interpretation is a form of introspection.

For me, it's a lot of things. A metaphor for the mating habits of spiders. A reminder to be thankful for what I have. Just something grisly to contemplate.

bruceb• 3 years ago

They are outliers.

Most tragedies the people are dead, outcome is known.

These situations usually have these things in common:

1. Very unusual situation

2. Race against the clock

3. Remote location

4. Extreme measures needed for rescue that may have never been done

5. May still die even if found

2-718-281-828• 3 years ago

it's relatable. most people have a vivid fear of being trapped somewhere. then empathy kicks in. it's not abstract.

moltar• 3 years ago

Overt misdirection?

Brown noise?

red_trumpet• 3 years ago

Isn't that like basic story telling? Someone goes on an adventure, then a catastrophe happens and now we are at the most thrilling part: will they make it out alive? And this is a real story, playing out in real time.

Rapzid• 3 years ago

Everyone loves a good search and rescue. Is there a better search and rescue right now?

eternityforest3• 3 years ago

I think it's the possibility they are still alive and trapped, and might die like there after multiple days of multiple kinds of suffering.

Plus, being unable to call for help is not something we are used to. To me, just BEING somewhere where I could not contact anyone and nobody could get to me in an emergency sounds terrifying even if nothing was actively happening.

Plus, to laymen it seems like the tech to prevent it should be absolutely trivial in the age of satellites. If I was lost somewhere all because I didn't have a $200 beacon device I would be horrified, and these people paid $250k. I'd expect multiple redundant forms of communication, immediately surfacing with a refund if there was any sign of trouble, etc.

nologic01• 3 years ago

If they are indeed banging they should use morse code to communicate something

hellweaver666• 3 years ago

...---... ?

ak_1112• 3 years ago

Interesting idea, I actually can't think of anything they are able to communicate that would aid in their rescue. They could probably signal if they are close to the surface, they won't be able to provide much more information on their exact location I think.

ip26• 3 years ago

Identifying themselves to disambiguate from other random noises?

tragomaskhalos• 3 years ago

While it's easy to be wise after the event, this thing does seem to be rather too Heath Robinson to be safe considering the extraordinarily challenging nature of the environment it operates in.

faefox• 3 years ago

If the banging hasn't been heard since could the sounds be related to the vessel imploding? Oxygen tanks or similar rupturing? You'd think if the passengers were still alive they'd continue to make noise at regular intervals or at least try to bang out an S-O-S in Morse code.

kherndon332• 3 years ago

Maybe they can use mores code?

kherndon332• 3 years ago

Mores code

gr8flyer10115• 3 years ago

I don't know how they could be retrieved successfully since the US Navy DSRV crush depth is only 5,000 feet; the only hope they have if they're still alive, is to get the propulsion back so they can maneuver to a more shallow depth. So sad.

Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

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