They just pirated my open source 8088 BIOS

https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recreates-1981%E2%80%99s-ibm-pc-complete-with-8088-cpu-and-640kb-of-ram.1492119/page-3#post-41883267

by justsomehnguy • 3 years ago

223 117 3 years ago

arstechnica.com

justsomehnguy4• 3 years ago

Additional context in [0], [1].

LGR review of the machine [2].

I would recommend reading [1] because it confirms the GPL violation but paints interesting picture of the reason.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recre...

[1] https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recre...

[2] https://youtu.be/6bODiZ5bP84?t=442 "So I Bought Those Weird New AliExpress Retro PCs…"

AllegedAlec• 3 years ago

Sounds very much like a Chinese PR OP. "Oh yeah we would've loved to attribute as per the license of the code we stole, but those dang online shops won't let us, so we just stole it and never mentioned it"

squarefoot• 3 years ago

I don't know how much of the explanation by the Book8088 dev is bullshit, but he exposes a valid point which could be rephrased as: if you attribute copyright to the author, and someone else complains about anything, the platform can take down the product page immediately. We've seen this happening in similar contexts quite often, such as bogus DMCA complaints on YouTube that result in immediate takedowns and enormous efforts from the authors to reinstate the pages. Might be just PR, but the point is sound to me; copyright laws are necessary, but the way they're implemented is total crap.

dunham• 3 years ago

I would recommend reading [1] because it confirms the GPL violation but paints interesting picture of the reason.

I'm not seeing that, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something. [1] includes:

we are also shared our change without reservation to every enthusiast (buyer).

Which to me says they're freely sharing the source with buyers. And I see in the GPL:

For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.

Which I understand as "you only have to share source code with buyers" (but they can do what they will with it).

justsomehnguy4• 3 years ago

> BOOK8088: And the foreign trade company words will not even consider these details. A similar thing happens with naming products. For example, we gave it a name, called BOOK8088 . If the name is registered as a trademark, we can only change the name. There are many professional complainers who make money from this. Of course, I knew there was a big problem with violating the GPL at very beginning, and I was preparing for something later. I didn't even expect it to develop so fast.
Which I understand as "you only have to share source code with buyers" (but they can do what they will with it).

You need a proper attribution. This comment goes at lengths explaining it [0] but removing the copyright and/or authorship (attribution in a general sense) is breaking the license attribution requirements.

[0] https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4577/does-gpl...

RobotToaster2• 3 years ago

It sounds like they are distributing the modified source code, so the only violation is removal of the attribution?

I don't know anything about Amazon, &c, policies, to know if what they say is true, or possibly a misunderstanding?

pshirshov• 3 years ago

There is no reason to buy these clones on Ali while there is Monotech NuXT.

undersuit2• 3 years ago

Well I have to be informed of it's existence, so thanks.

kitsunesoba3• 3 years ago

Monotech NuXT

Hadn't heard of this before, but it's a great concept. I love the idea of modern takes on retro tech.

Wish it were more practical to do something like this for 68k or PPC Macs… unfortunately I don't think there are any usable 68k or PPC derivatives currently in production which limits possibilities. The closest thing I've seen are FPGA-based setups like the Plus Too[0].

[0] https://www.bigmessowires.com/plus-too/

agg23• 3 years ago

For easier access, you can run the Plus Too core on the MiSTer FPGA project, which is a bit more prevalent and user friendly (plus supports many, many more systems) (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/MacPlus_MiSTer).

nico2• 3 years ago

From the Plus Two site:

The Mac’s 512 x 342 screen is pixel doubled to fit

Do you know what algorithm they use to “pixel double” the screen?

undersuit2• 3 years ago

There's the MBC lines(https://shop.mcjohn.it/en/8-diy-kit), options include: Z80, 68K, and the VIC-20. You can get them pre-assembled, but they are far less standard than this XT clone.

mysterydip2• 3 years ago

Is this the right thing? https://monotech.fwscart.com/details/p6083514_19777986.aspx it doesn't seem comparable. The Ali clones are all in one devices, this is just a motherboard.

kitsunesoba3• 3 years ago

Not just a motherboard, but more of a "single-board-computer", which includes built on, many peripherals that a separate ISA card would usually be needed for.
Can be used as a full featured IBM XT-compatible without any extra cards.
Can add Sound, Network Card, or more storage/connectivity via the four ISA slots.

From the linked page. It's an SBC but in a motherboard form factor with expansion slots.

kevin_thibedeau2• 3 years ago

You can get old PC/104 SBCs with tons of integrated IO for much less.

pengaru• 3 years ago

At least one of the clones is a 386, the NuXT is just an 8088.

Nobody wanted an 8088 once the 386 was available, and that was back then.

Convincing "enthusiasts" to buy 8088s in a new box today is little more than shilling e-waste

hakfoo• 3 years ago

There's some appeal in constraints-- look at the people who do new homebrew NES/SNES games.

I've built a kit-based 8088 product, and I have a 386 clone. The 386 is more capable, but I've gotten more hobby mileage out of the 8088 because there's interesting projects built around coping with its limitations. (I designed a custom memory board because it was designed with 512k, and I wanted 640 and upper memory blocks, and did some firmware work that made the kit much more usable).

RecycledEle• 3 years ago

Imagine a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Imagine the devices that pirate GPL code being seized, and when the developers explain they received BSA training that said they did not have to live by the GPL, the assets of BSA member companies are seized on conspiracy charges (after a fair trial.)

Imagine.

RobotToaster2• 3 years ago

Birmingham Small Arms Company?

AlexandrB• 3 years ago

Business Software Alliance

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Alliance

komadori• 3 years ago

Business Software Alliance, a Microsoft-backed software licence enforcement outfit.

mistrial9• 3 years ago

are you saying that in the USA, a Microsoft-funded lawyer group is training people that the GPL does not have legal force edit in some conditions they declare? Do you have evidence of this? links?

gigel82• 3 years ago

BSA, now that's something I haven't heard in a while; '90s mIRC flashback...

cat_plus_plus2• 3 years ago

Yes, and a bunch of other things (look at hard drive content), however everyone should give them a pass since they recreated arguably the most important computer in history for developers and enthusiasts. With an emulator, there is always a question if your software would have worked the same on the original device, or if the game experience is exactly as it was intended to be. Now I have a way to check if my code in fact runs on a real 8088 and CGA.

AshamedCaptain2• 3 years ago

No, you don't, because among many other things, the BIOS will be different. It's highly likely even the most inaccurate of emulators will actually be more accurate.

cat_plus_plus2• 3 years ago

You are not going to be using BIOS much for any fun 8088 programming

NotYourLawyer3• 3 years ago

Then do something about it. The DMCA is actually pretty easy to use.

sp332• 3 years ago

Not in China it isn't. (Not that China doesn't have any IP enforcement, but it's not the DMCA.)

NotYourLawyer3• 3 years ago

But they’re being imported to the US.

daneel_w3• 3 years ago

The DMCA is toothless in China.

Twirrim• 3 years ago

Why would you expect US laws to apply to China?

derefr2• 3 years ago

I believe you can use the DMCA to get importation of a violating product into the US restricted — which is, I think, what the GP is suggesting here.

NotYourLawyer3• 3 years ago

I expect US laws to apply to goods imported into the US.

StingyJelly• 3 years ago

It might be that in China there's not a strong opensource culture. Here's a video from Naomi Wu dragging umidigy into compliance where she talks about the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ

lockhouse• 3 years ago

Chinese culture doesn’t respect intellectual property in general, why would they treat open source licenses any differently?

kevin_thibedeau2• 3 years ago

Those computers took a fairly significant effort to design, source components, and run through manufacturing. You'd think at some point they'd be self aware enough that the open source they're adulterating also required similar levels of gratis effort and should be afforded some respect.

codedokode3• 3 years ago

I see a section with short vertical videos on Youtube that strongly resembles a certain Chinese mobile app. Could it be that those Chinese developers, not respecting intellectual property, are now working for Youtube?

Or maybe not respecting intellectual property when it is profitable is just a worldwide tradition?

Zacharias030• 3 years ago

What makes you think this is related to “chinese culture” as opposed to “circumstance”? Without qualification it looks like a great demonstration of the fundamental attribution error [0] and a very fashionable position to have in today’s western world.

0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_erro...

Cullinet3• 3 years ago

The USA is a signatory to the Madrid Treaty Protocol governing international intellectual property rights, but never bothered to ratify it. What might a different country who has bothered to ratify the treaty and been subjected to litigation and trade enbargos at the behest of America maybe think about the behavioral example? There's just one example of a international famous trademark enforcement against American interests which is Societé Des Bains De Mer, the owners of the Monte Carlo Casino in Monaco in the 9th District in 2001. Just that solitary case of reciprocal enforcement.

daneel_w3• 3 years ago

What's missing is the culture of respecting other nations' IP, on both commercial level and individual level. Their laws on enforcing IP are practically unilateral in the context of intl. relations.

civilitty2• 3 years ago

Hmmm where might have they learned that strategy? [1][2]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_gin

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution_in_the...

inconceivable3• 3 years ago

so what happens when chinese investors discover patent trolling and start purchasing western IP portfolios to sue american and european companies over in western courts? and what if they start winning?

"wait, no, not like that"

axus• 3 years ago

A way to test the hypotheses are, check if Chinese companies generally respect other Chinese companies IP? Seems like that would be the most convenient to copy, so if they DO respect their peers then it IS targeted at foreign people.

surgical_fire• 3 years ago

Can you give an example of powerful country that respects other nations?

beached_whale• 3 years ago

It didn't really look like dragging but more informing and asking(not being a jerk about it too). As she said, there wasn't resistance, just past inertia.

Hackbraten• 3 years ago

A Chinese YouTuber has traveled to a company who wouldn’t take the GPL seriously [0]. I wish more people had the nerve to do that instead of letting it slide.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ

nsajko• 3 years ago

Shout out to Sexy Cyborg, her HN acc: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=SexyCyborg

loco5niner• 3 years ago

Woah, can we put a NSFW on that link? Thx

shadowgovt• 3 years ago

I don't really understand why one would pirate an open source project... Just use it according to the GPL license. Redistribute the modified code, and leave the attribution to the code authors... Is it that difficult?

We have more than enough examples of commercial companies using GPL software without contributing back that I have to assume this question is rhetorical by now.

dark-star• 3 years ago

I came to the conclusion that it is simply their culture. Chinese people, in general, don't have a strong sense of "mine" vs "someone else's". They seem to think that if it's there, then they can just as well take it and do whatever with it.

I had a Chinese friend at University. Smart guy, and friendly, but he just couldn't understand why people in his dorm got mad at him every time he took their stuff from the fridge and ate or drank it. "it was there, I was thirsty! And if you insist, I will replace it..."

varjag• 3 years ago

I worked with Taiwanese people, haven't had a whiff of that. On the other hand petty theft was a very common occurrence in Soviet daily life, and the mainland owes to its legacy more than to Confucius. So sure, could be the culture but in a surprising way.

retrac• 3 years ago

Taiwan and modern mainland China have about a century of separation at this point, with very different historical paths. China: civil war -> WW II -> civil war -> communist rule -> several decades of int'l isolation. Taiwan: Japanese colony -> western aligned dictatorship -> liberalized democracy. Recent Taiwanese history has been less tumultuous in many ways, and many aspects of traditional (pre-20th century) Chinese culture are relatively more intact; particularly in areas like religion.

kelnos• 3 years ago

Taiwanese and Chinese people are culturally very different these days. They still have a lot of the same "historical" cultural underpinnings, but day to day life and attitudes among the people are sharply different.

ksec• 3 years ago

don't have a strong sense of "mine" vs "someone else's".

They do. But in a different way.

Everything "someone else's" belongs to the people. So they take it.

Everything "mine" belongs to the people too, so they allow others to take it.

The problem is they have a different definition of people. And that definition changes depending on their interest and status.

Imagine replacing people with Chinese and they are fine. But those who are Anti-CCP, not fine.

MrVandemar• 3 years ago

That's not Chinese culture, that's flat out entitled narcissism.

I heard tell of a guy like that, who'd go and drink someone's drink from the fridge at a Rail company.

The other guy got fed up with what is theft and bullying and added some of the Chromate water to it one day, and the other guy got really, seriously fucked up. Not advocating it, but you can't say he didn't deserve it.

userbinator• 3 years ago

The Chinese view on IP is very different from the western one, but in some ways it's just as "open source". These articles give a good overview:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8807651

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5703946

asylteltine• 3 years ago

Good on ars to update the article

glurblur• 3 years ago

My god. I would have hoped HN to have less bias and ignorance towards China. To be clear, im totally against the company pirating the BIOS and not attributing the author. But, the comments here regarding China just reads like r/geopolitics or r/wolrdnews.

Taking some classes on east asia doesn’t make you an expert on China. Watching a couple of YouTube videos doesn’t either. Not everything you hear in the west is absolutely true. Same goes for things you hear in China.

You don’t know the culture til you lived there. I didn’t understand American culture until I came to the US and lived for more than a decade here, yet western media is so prevalent in China and I thought I totally knew what the US was like before coming. I was so wrong.

Please go and explore the world with your own eyes. It’s really hard to read comments like these because they appear unbiased and true, but pretty far from reality.

Regarding how Chinese deals with IP, I will attribute it more towards laws and the enforcement of it. You simply don’t get punished for stealing IP until someone powerful sues you. IMO, better IP laws and enforcement will make most of these issues go away. Its not cultural

Incipient• 3 years ago

Now that China is starting to develop their own IP in some areas (eg EVs) I'm curious how they react if anyone rips off their IP.

I can't imagine they'll react well, but I wonder if it's a genuine "IP isn't a thing" or if it's just "ripping people off is ok it it's for our benefit".

They just pirated my open source 8088 BIOS

Related Stories