Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnUBl90tayI

by sbuttgereit • 3 years ago

117 235 3 years ago

I like this guys content generally, but it's worth noting in this instance he's unknowingly echo-ing free-market libertarian dogma.

You might hear comments from time to time about studies showing Dvorak is "no better than QWERTY," or words to that effect. All such comments that I've heard seem to echo an article, "The Fable of the Keys," by S. J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. Margolis, published in the Journal of Law & Economics, vol. XXXIII (April 1990).
Note the word "economics." Liebowitz and Margolis are economists opposed to an "excessive inertia" theory, for which QWERTY is often cited as an example. Rather than try to prove their point with a generally valid argument, they simply attack Dvorak as a dubious replacement for QWERTY. As the article's last footnote explains, there are a number of other possible reasons for Dvorak's failure to replace QWERTY, besides a perceived lack of value. The article ignores those reasons, however, and perpetrates that false perception in a nicely self-fulfilling way.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050204023432/http://www.mwbroo...

bediger4000• 3 years ago

I haven't looked in a few years, but "The Fable of the Keys" was not available on the web. I had to slip into CU's library to find it on microfiche. Unimpressive paper, no original research, just pot shots at old Navy and Dvorak experiments.

Economists call "excessive inertia" "path dependence".

causi• 3 years ago

What makes that libertarian dogma?

lern_too_spel• 3 years ago

Path dependence is a kind of market failure. Libertarians like to pretend that market failure does not exist in free markets because market failure implies market intervention.

The authors of "The Fable of the Keys" have frequently argued against the existence of path dependence. https://eh.net/encyclopedia/path-dependence/

throwawaymaths4• 3 years ago

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

grog4542• 3 years ago

I use Dvorak for keyboards and qwerty for thumbs. Keeps them both in muscle memory to some extent, so it's not too painful when I'm using someone else's keyboard.

xhevahir• 3 years ago

Me, too. I tried using Dvorak on the phone once I saw it was available but soon realized that my Dvorak skill was entirely muscle memory and that I had no visual sense of the layout. QWERTY (plus "glide" or "swipe" typing) works fine for that purpose, for me.

codemac3• 3 years ago

Ditto! It's actually good for thumbs because your thumbs can't get all crumbled on top of eachother. Same for swipe typing - the further distances makes it easier to pick up on different words.

ascagnel_• 3 years ago

I can kind of see that: by moving all the frequently-used letters to the edges and mostly away from each other (and keeping frequent letter pairs further apart), it probably makes interpreting taps between letters and things like swipe keyboards easier to execute.

throwawaymaths4• 3 years ago

Specifically the vowels. Lots of words have levenstein distance one vowel in many langs (yes I'm aware many langs don't use qwerty but most are ~)

SkyPuncher3• 3 years ago

I still use Qwerty on mobile. Thumbs are completely different muscle memory. No reason to force an alternative layout everywhere.

throwawaymaths4• 3 years ago

Of course not, but in an alternate universe where we had switched over to dvorak, mobile would have been terrible

lelag• 3 years ago

So true. Dvorak user for 20+ years but I find QWERTY to be much better for one handed typing on a touch screen.

I think it's the design goal of having a high chance of switching keyboard side each stroke that makes it so horrible.

Still I would never go back to using QWERTY on a real keyboard, using Dvorak is so much more comfortable.

Aachen7• 3 years ago

Obligatory https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9355276

Finding an Optimal Keyboard Layout for Swype (sangaline.com)

Can't believe that got only a hundred points and was posted only once in 2015. In my head this is an inspiring if not influential article. Glad it's still online at least.

Conclusion hint: it's not any of the established layouts that would be best for mobile!

aaron_m04• 3 years ago

One YouTube comment echoed my experience with Dvorak:

Often overlooked is that the main reason for switching to dvorak isn't speed for most users. The dvorak layout is layed out for minimal movement while maintaining a roughly even split between hands. This reduces strain on a typists hands and helps a great deal with comfort when typing for longer periods of time.

I may not type faster than if I had stuck with qwerty, but I definitely don't have the wrist problems I keep hearing coworkers complain about.

irjustin• 3 years ago

Split keyboards is my recommendation

grog4542• 3 years ago

Split keyboards can help with wrist positioning but not finger travel, both of which can contribute to wrist problems.

klodolph• 3 years ago

My experience is that Dvorak solved my RSI problems, and split keyboards do not. The amount of time it takes to retrain into Dvorak is irrelevant to me, because the alternative is something more extreme, like quitting my job, using speech-to-text, or living in pain.

wmedrano• 3 years ago

Split keyboards solved my hand problems 6years ago. I started learning Dvorak this week to reduce my left index finger strain.

carabiner2• 3 years ago

Yeah, I think this sums up every Dvorak debunking story that pops up on HN twice a year. You can type 100 WPM with two fingers as seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs so layout does not matter too much for speed. You can see his physical movement does not appear superhuman, and this is well above average typing speed of 40 WPM.

Debunkers: It's not any faster!

Dvorak users: We know, and we don't care.

SkyPuncher3• 3 years ago

This was my driving factor for switching to Colemak (I considered Dvorak, but felt Colemak was easier for _me_ to learn).

I'm starting to get some finger pain again, but that's almost entirely from overuse. QWERTY was crushing my hands. Far too many, weird twisting moves to hit consecutive keys between top and bottom rows.

zamadatix• 3 years ago

As another anecdote this was my driver switching off of QWERTY as well, with no regrets.

api_or_ipa3• 3 years ago

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy, dvorak might be something to consider.

Overall, I've been using dvorak for >10 years and I like it. Going back to Qwerty is like going back to sleeping on a twin mattress. It gets the job done, but once you've become accustomed to sleeping on a queen, it's hard to justify going back to a twin.

darrylb42• 3 years ago

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

tetris11• 3 years ago

Not a Dvorak user, but I type on different language keypads a lot, both physically and on software keyboards. Your fingers get used to it within a few weeks and after a few years your brain doesn't even register the difference.

rtkwe• 3 years ago

Get good enough touch typing dvorak you don't need to seethe keys so typing on a qwerty keyboard isn't an issue. These days it's not the letters I ever have to personally look at the keys for but the random symbols I don't use often enough to have memorized. Sadly some of those move around too.

larrysalibra• 3 years ago

I've also used for dvorak for a long time...over 15 years. I've never changed keycaps. If you're looking at your fingers while typing qwerty, learning to type dvorak on a qwerty keyboard might just be useful in that it will force you to stop looking at your keyboard and you'll find a speed up in typing just from that!

For me the learning process was very similar to learning a foreign language. At first it was hard, but once I started to get fluency in dvorak, typing in qwerty was hard for a while...but then at some point my qwerty typing ability came back and switching between the two layouts is as easy as switching computer or human languages. (when you know them fluently).

To address your fear, yes, there will a period in the learning process where your fingers get confused switching back and forth but once you get past that it goes away and switching becomes second nature.

oniony• 3 years ago

I've been typing Dvorak for nearly twenty years now. I decided to learn when my programming job turned into an offshore team management job, so wanted to make it more interesting.

Initially looking down at the Qwerty labelled keyboard would totally mess me up, so I had try really hard not to look down

After about a month I could look down on occasion, realise the caps were no help and then continue on

Because I would switch back to Qwerty whenever anyone would come over to my PC, my brain then decided the presence of a person was a key to flip to Qwerty, which was annoying for a while, as whenever anyone would come near I'd lose the ability to type properly.

After the second month I would look down and I was sort of 'see' both characters at the same time: the actual keycap with my eyes and the Dvorak keys with my mind. Was very trippy and a bit difficult to properly explain.

After another month or so, that went away and then I can look at the Qwerty keys and I just sorta ignore them unless I made an effort to read them. My brain has learnt to not read them, if that makes sense. That's still the state now, many years later.

I can still type reasonably fast on Qwerty too if I need to, but it takes me a minute to adjust.

At home I have some blank keyboards I bought, partly to reduce confusion and partly because I think they look cool, but I really couldn't care less any more what the keyboards are labelled with as I rarely look at them.

I use Vim using the original bindings, hjkl are not so badly placed: h and l are still left and right of each other.

I'm actually now debating setting up a stegography keyboard, partly for another amusing brain rewiring exercise, and just because I like geeky things.

uticus3• 3 years ago

Dvorak user for 6+ years. Whereas I was very proficient touch-typing qwerty, that ability was lost when I learned Dvorak. It was too difficult, with too little benefit, to train myself to touch type in both formats. I ended up going all-in on Dvorak.

My keyboard [0] has software that translates from Dvorak to qwerty. So plugging the keyboard into different machines means no change for me, since most do qwerty by default.

When I use laptop keyboard, I do switch to dvorak layout.

Also, I'll mention the most interesting bit for me personally with changing has been in-person software interviews. The interviewer (future boss) gave me quite a look when he saw me start hunt-and-pecking! I should have given him some warning but wasn't thinking about it until I sat down at the keyboard. Fortunately it led to a good conversation, and after taking the few seconds to switch keyboard formats on the test machine I was back to full speed (unnecessarily extra full speed to impress).

it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match...

If you're concerned about other people, use qwerty keycaps and just ignore for yourself. It's also possible to have blank keycaps. I have blanks because they were the only sculpted option at the time for the keyboard I wanted. Along with the ortholinear layout I get some weird looks sometimes, the keyboard is just a blank regular grid of buttons, doesn't really look quite normal.

[0] Ergodox-EZ (old style, not sold anymore) https://ergodox-ez.com/

WorldMaker3• 3 years ago

The best touch typing doesn't look at the keyboard at all, so it has more often felt like a benefit that the keys don't match what I type. (I sometimes feel like I should apologize to grade school teachers that tried to impart that lesson at too young an age to me when teaching QWERTY typing and I'd complain when they tried to block the keyboard from view.)

Having QWERTY key caps is even sometimes still useful for hunt and peck when an app (often a game) uses the wrong system library for keyboard input and is accidentally hard-coded to QWERTY input.

If other people need to use my computer it is very easy to set up profiles that default still to QWERTY or to temporarily shift to QWERTY for their interaction. (The default Windows shortcut key to switch between installed layouts is Left CTRL+SHIFT. It's very easy to switch to/from QWERTY with that quick shortcut.)

mitchellpkt• 3 years ago

When I was learning dvorak (more than a decade ago) I bought a cheap keyboard at a garage sale and rearranged the keys. An easier approach is just to get stickers.

I used that trainer keyboard for a summer, until my typing muscle memory was updated to dvorak.

Since then, I don't look at my keyboards while typing, so the fact that the keys are labeled for qwerty doesn't really matter.

lutorm• 3 years ago

I'm in a funny situation that at my desktop I've been using a Kinesis dvorak keyboard for over 20 years, but on laptops or other random computers I use qwerty. My brain is totally bought in on the different layouts, I don't even have to think about it. It's too much of a hassle to manage to reconfigure all of them to dvorak, and then no one else in the family would be able to use them either. An extra complication is that I also sometimes use a Swedish keyboard to type åäö and on a dvorak I have no idea where they would end up.

Perhaps it would pay off to standardize... But like someone else said, the letters aren't the problem, it's all the symbols that you almost never use that become impossible if they aren't labeled.

jerf3• 3 years ago

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY.

Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is right, but I don't know that it is wrong either.

When you learn Dvorak or any other similar thing, you don't have to "learn" how to touch type. You just do it, because it's optimal already. You have to learn the layout, obviously, but once having done that you couldn't hardly fail to learn touch typing and "proper" typing technique if you tried. The same uphill gradient you're fighting when trying to learn "proper" typing technique with QWERTY is now a downhill gradient.

I'd actually recommend learning Dvorak over trying to force yourself to touch-type QWERTY properly. Of course, if you don't care about that, no big deal. I'm not sure how valuable that is as a goal on its own, and it's plainly obvious many people function as highly effective office workers of all sorts, programmers and otherwise, without learning to touch type.

kloch• 3 years ago

QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong.

I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique.

I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be the most useful class I ever took in school by a wide margin since I've used that skill all day every day for 35 years.

It was a loooong time ago but I remember it started with lots of simple repetition. We were all using IBM selectrics and the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" etc. in a pattern around the keyboard while and we were told to avoid looking at the keyboard at all times. Eventually we would start copying simple and then longer, more complicated text, again without ever looking at the keyboard.

marricks• 3 years ago

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful.

I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

audunw• 3 years ago

I'm not 100% sure you're right, but I'm one who did not touch type QWERTY properly. It could be because of the reasons you stated, or because I learned to type on a keyboard myself, not even knowing I should be using touch type. And I found that learning touch typing together with Dvora was great, like you say. It felt very natural with Dvorak, but I don't think the touch typing I learned made me touch type Qwerty properly.

I think there's something to be said about starting with a clean slate on the keyboard layout so you don't have to unlearn old bad habits in the process. For me learning Dvorak had the double benefit of making me type 100% correctly with the new layout. I'm really not sure I would have been motivated to do that if I decided to stick with Qwerty. Getting two comfort improvements with one training period makes it more worthwhile

6510• 3 years ago

I did the same kind of code heatmap (only for querty) but never made a good implementation that accounts for autocomplete. The symbol characters are already much more heavily used than the abc but the real numbers are probably much worse.

citrin_ru• 3 years ago

output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think

It's hard to think while typing so the less time I spend typing the more time I have for thinking. Having said that I'm a qwerty user - it took me a lot of time (may be 100 hours) to learn touch typing and I don't have time to repeat the same with dvorak.

SftwrSvior81• 3 years ago

Same here, I learned how to touch type years before I heard about Dvorak and found it very difficult to switch so I'm still using qwerty.

nottorp• 3 years ago

Hmm I never consciously learned to touch type, just got into it in time. Not being an actual practiced touch typist, I use like 3 fingers on each hand on average. Last time I took a speed test i could do like 50-60 wpm.

Thing is, this speed is more than enough for a developer. What do you write? Code and some communication with your co workers. In both cases you need to think about it, except the rare cases where you churn out yet another for loop.

kqr• 3 years ago

Same experience for me with Colemak. My wife at one point got curious enough to try typing a few sentences on my machine (with me reading out which finger to move how to get the right letters) and even she had to admit it felt very relaxing compared to what she's used to. (But not enough that she's willing to relearn...)

fareesh• 3 years ago

I type between 80-120 wpm with reasonable accuracy on qwerty and I feel super slow compared to the pace of thinking.

It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

xpe4• 3 years ago

It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

I have some questions:

1. From a psychological point of view, have you explored ways of coping with this stress? What are your expectations? Do you know why you have the stress? Is about results? Is it about fluidity / flow / fluency? Something else?

2. This may be obvious, but I want to make sure I ask the question to make it really concrete: is one of your goals to transfer your thinking directly to the computer as quickly as possible?

3. Would you be willing to reframe your goal? Perhaps frame your goals as: "Accomplish my goals efficiently with a sense of flow, without rushing down a suboptimal path." You know some of these proverbs:

* "Running faster in the wrong direction won't get you anywhere."

* "Better to walk in the right direction than run in the wrong one."

* "Haste makes waste."

* "A fool at high speed is still a fool."

* "Don't mistake activity for achievement."

* "When you're headed in the wrong direction, progress means turning around."

4. It may be useful to think slower! This might help you let go of framing it as "forcing myself to think slower".

A. Maybe you would feel better if you could reframe this process as not simply thinking slower but also allocating some of your mental processing to summarization and translation and other valuable processing?

B. No knock against your brain, but how do you actually measure your thinking speed and error rate?

C. There are a lot of counterintuitive things happening in the brain when you dig into the neuroscience. Many experiments show that our conscious awareness lags our actual decision-making. Perhaps this can "problematize" your situation and make it interesting, rather than purely stressful. Thinking and typing may not be happening the way you think they are

D. I'd expect for you, a good typist, your brain fires motor control circuits to cause your fingers to type before you are consciously aware of it, if you are aware at all. Ever notice how switching keyboards increases your awareness? This seems to suggest that one's low-level typing awareness (i.e. how keys feel) dulls over time when using one particular keyboard.

E. I have not read this yet, but it seems relevant: "Hierarchical control of cognitive processes: The case for skilled typewriting." by Logan and Crump, 2011. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-04906-001

5. What technologies and/or methods have you considered?

6. Are you familiar with a steno machine (aka stenotype machine / shorthand machine / stenograph)? Might it work for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype

7. Have you discussed this with others with similar goals? Have you read "Quest for a fully deterministic keyboard shorthand system" https://www.reddit.com/r/shorthand/comments/3ul9y3

retrac• 3 years ago

how fast we can think [...] an analysis of one of our code bases

Well, with coding that's certainly true. I can spend all day trying to come up with a dozen lines of code. Input speed is not the barrier there. But for writing English prose, at around 90 wpm, my fingers are often lagging behind what I want to say. People can reach short bursts when speaking as fast as 300 wpm. When I get such bursts of thought, it can be hard to hold on to the end of it while I'm still typing the beginning.

notagoodidea• 3 years ago

You want to be able to follow speaking pace? Learn steno, it is made for that. https://www.openstenoproject.org/plover/

nashashmi2• 3 years ago

How did you solve the Shortcuts problem? I really gave Dvorak a good shot, but it completely failed when I was using auto cad CAD.

danzk• 3 years ago

I use a gaming mouse and assign common shortcuts to the extra buttons.

One nice advantage of mac os is the built-in Dvorak-Qwerty layout which retains Qwerty shortcuts. You need an AHK script to achieve the same result on Windows.

pmarreck• 3 years ago

What about Colemak?

Also, as a gamer, I'm concerned about keyboard mappings in games if I switch from Qwerty- I heard bad things, although games really should have switched from a key encoding mapping to a key location mapping a long time ago.

EduardoBautista2• 3 years ago

Some games do use key location. Factorio, for example, uses key location. It's really hit or miss. I am not sure what determines whether they use key location or not.

Edit: Basically, the key mappings would automatically change WASD to WARS for Colemak.

cge• 3 years ago

When I started using Dvorak, it was because I found that I could make my typing significantly quieter with Dvorak than with QWERTY, likely because of the reduced movement. As an undergraduate at a time when almost no one else had started typing notes in class, I found that there was a substantial reduction in how noticeable my typing was to others when I switched to Dvorak.

jxramos• 3 years ago

Another angle is comfort and ergonomics. Less stress and strain on the wrists and fingers using less contortions to get where you need to go.

TylerE• 3 years ago

The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], <>, and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.

Symbiote5• 3 years ago

,.<> are slightly more convenient than on Qwerty, ;: is obviously worse but hardly "way out" (it's where Z is on Qwerty).

[]{} are indeed further out, but instead we have -_=+ closer. Once we add in all the English I type, file-names, U_R_L?s, --command --flags, /directories/, I think, if anything, the rearrangement is an advantage.

fsckboy3• 3 years ago

analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character

if your code base is C, is dvorak going to help with all the [^A-Za-z]* punctuation characters? That's what slows me down.

Symbiote5• 3 years ago

These characters/keys are in better positions on Dvorak: '" ,< .> -_ +=

These are in worse positions: [{ ]} ;: /?

And this doesn't move: \| `~ and the punctuation over the numbers.

[]{} is significantly worse, equally -_=+ is significantly better, as these keys are swapped. Making an effort to learn and touch-type these keys is pretty similar on either layout.

It's just a matter of learning it. If you really want to, you can customize a keyboard layout on any OS and arrange these keys how you see fit, but then you lose any compatibility advantage of sticking with plain Dvorak.

api_or_ipa3• 3 years ago

I use the programmer variant of dvorak. The number keys are 'swapped' with symbols, so you press shift to access numbers. Given that most programmers (should) use symbols more often than numbers, this is highly convenient. Strongly recommend checking it out.

For the record, I mostly use python nowadays but it's still a big improvement over mashing shift all day.

FullyFunctional• 3 years ago

I came to say this. It's not speed, it's comfort. I've been using Dvorak on my Kinesis Advantage since mid 90'es [1]. I don't actually think Dvorak is the best possible layout, but as the video points out, we are already in the realm of diminishing returns.

[1] I still use Qwerty on non-Kinesis keyboards and this fact is enough for my muscle memory to eliminate any mental overhead of switching.

erichocean• 3 years ago

Long-time Dvorak user, and I 100% agree with this. Dvorak is much less taxing on your body.

ipqk• 3 years ago

I moved to dvorak to help with my RSI. I don't know if it actually helped (it's been decades since I used QWERTY on a keyboard for more than a minute), but typing speed was irrelevant to me.

JohnFen• 3 years ago

I've long fantasized about switching to Dvorak just to confuse people who want to use my computer.

noveltyaccount• 3 years ago

I switched to Colemak a long time ago (from qwerty) and it helped with the RSI issues I was having. Definitely more ergonomic.

Apofis• 3 years ago

Using QUERTY after colemak is like being retarded, so after trying alternate keyboard layouts for a while, I'm just doing a hardpass on anything not QUERTY until we get rid of keyboards entirely.

moi2388• 3 years ago

I just don’t understand that metric or why Dvorak people keep using it. Yes my fingers might travel less, but do we know that moving your hands less leads to a reduction in pain and injury? I’d argue having them constantly in the same position might also do that.

And what about comfort? My index finger is stronger than my pinky; id much rather move further with my index finger than my pinky..

Avlin67• 3 years ago

You dont need to type fast to be productive imho

2023throwawayy• 3 years ago

For me, using DVORAK has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with comfort. It's simply easier to use and results in less hand and wrist strain.

crimsontech2• 3 years ago

Really depends on what your job is.

mightyham• 3 years ago

I taught myself dvorak for fun in high school have used it everyday for close to a decade now. It certainly never made me a faster typer, but what I don't hear a lot of people point out is that it is simply a more pleasant experience. Whenever I switch back to qwerty (I can still touch type in both), I become instantly contingent that my hands are having to move more erratically over the surface of my keyboard to type any given word or sentence. Also a couple small things about the layout that really like are that the underscore key is much easier to reach and the period and comma keys are on the top row which makes writing long numbers with decimals and commas nicer.

warp• 3 years ago

With the rise of (split) mechanical keyboards as a hobby in its own right (with open source keyboard firmware like QMK and ZMK) it is much easier to make small tweaks to your layout as you find things which annoy you, so there seems to be a lot of experimentation going on right now with alternative layouts.

I feel like I'm one of the last generation of Dvorak typers, anyone who cares about typing ergonomics learning about alternate layouts is probably both better off and more likely to try e.g. colemak, or something newer or maybe even design their own.

jupp0r2• 3 years ago

I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.

WorldMaker3• 3 years ago

It's my lone complaint with Colemak is that Windows still doesn't include it out-of-the-box and needs it to be admin-installed from an MSI bundle that needs to be downloaded (or copied from a thumb drive). Every other modern OS includes it today (including iOS).

nfriend• 3 years ago

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed).

I now use Colemak (https://colemak.com/) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite happy with!

beeforpork• 3 years ago

For Emacs controls, I found that Dvorak is not much of a problem after remapping it a tiny bit:

    (keyboard-translate ?\C-c ?\C-n)
    (keyboard-translate ?\C-h ?\C-c)

codemac3• 3 years ago

I ended up with the following[0]

    (keyboard-translate ?\C-x ?\C-t)
    (keyboard-translate ?\C-t ?\C-x)

Along with a quick function to make sure I don't forget :)

    (global-set-key
     (kbd "C-t") 
     (lambda ()
       (interactive)
       (run-with-timer 
        0.3 nil 
        (lambda ()
          ;; Assuming these are the default values
          (setq visible-bell nil)
          (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore)))
       (setq visible-bell t)
       (setq ring-bell-function nil)
       (error "Don't press that button.")))

[0]: https://github.com/codemac/config/blob/master/emacs.d/boot.o...

carabiner2• 3 years ago

On Mac, you have the "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" layout which retains QWERTY shortcuts.

danpalmer• 3 years ago

I used to love this, eventually just took the plunge and learnt the shortcuts though and I'm more productive because I can use non-Mac Dvorak layouts.

duncan_idaho• 3 years ago

I use a TypeMatrix keyboard to get around the moved keyboard shortcut keys for copy paste.

uticus3• 3 years ago

Good point, but IMO mechanical programmable keyboard with hardware shortcuts are the way to go. That way you can remap to one-handed, or even one button, or whatever you like. You can even take it with you between machines. It's like a portable "human interface" that stays with you.

waynesonfire• 3 years ago

I've been using dvorak exclusively for over 20 years. Best investment of my career. I don't bother remapping keys and just learn them however they land on the layout.

akira2501• 3 years ago

For me it was the burden of typing 'ls'. I'm in the shell a lot, and the dvorak layout is very much _not_ shell friendly.

adrian_b4• 3 years ago

This depends on taste. I find it very easy to type "ls" on Dvorak, where it is typed with the same finger on adjacent keys.

Moreover, the variant of Dvorak that I use is much more shell-friendly than any QWERTY layout.

While for the alphabet and for the punctuation signs that are used in natural languages I use a layout closer to the initial Dvorak layout from 1932 than to the modern Dvorak layout, for the other non-alphanumeric symbols I have made a few changes that I consider best for typing shell commands or other kinds of programs.

The pre-WWII Dvorak layout does not say anything about most non-alphanumeric symbols and there are no suitable standards for them (i.e. any standards than are based on rational criteria, not on preserving a random historical layout), so anyone who wants an optimal keyboard for programming or work with a command-line interface should design a custom layout for the non-alphanumeric symbols, according to taste and experience.

mdaniel• 3 years ago

Sorry, I don't follow: `ls` is dragging your right pinky downward. How is that not shell friendly?

(I mean, to each their own, I use dvorak because other layouts hurt my hands, but I would presume there are better non-shell-friendly examples -- but interestingly, I couldn't readily find them since `mv` is also just the right hand, unlike its qwerty friend)

0000000000100• 3 years ago

I'm a dvorak user and never really found a way around the shortcut issue. Mac has a native option to use Dvorak with QWERTY shortcuts which is what I prefer, but on windows you have to use buggy programs to map the shortcuts over. Never found anything that worked great. Linux is even worse since you have to mess around with the OS to get it to work, and is a bit different between distros / flavors.

In the end I use a Ergodox keyboard that switches the layout to QWERTY if you hold down the control key, works flawlessly and haven't had to deal with it since.

xster• 3 years ago

15 years on dvorak and shortcuts are the primary impediment. The mac tweaked shortcuts work nicely, but they're not consistent. Swing based UI ignores them. It's also still a bit confusing dealing with ctrl-* vs anything that has a cmd, including cmd-opt-shift-* etc. Seems like re-implementing the mac tweak but in a more complete way manually in qmk would be the ultimate cross-platform solution.

theonemind• 3 years ago

I use Dvorak. When typing on QWERTY, I feel like I'm playing a secretary in a 1950s movie trying to ham up the notion that I'm really typing something here, because it feels my fingers have to fly around everywhere in an exaggerated and ostentatious manner.

If you have typing speed less than 50 WPM, you'll probably type faster by switching to Dvorak. If you type faster than that before switching, your typing speed will go down and not fully recover automatically unless you train it back up. I lost some speed that I never recovered. It wasn't worth the effort because I can still type fast enough.

A lot of people get hung up on the keybindings thing. zxcv for CUA cut-copy-paste make a nice little row on QWERTY, and hjkl for vi type movements, but as it turns out, it really doesn't matter. Those help you learn when muscle memory doesn't translate into intention without thinking. Once you learn them by muscle memory, it doesn't matter where the keys are. I just use programs with QWERTY shortcuts and press the key on Dvorak wherever it happens to land on the layout, and it works perfectly fine.

I can still touch type QWERTY, but quite a bit slower than Dvorak.

uticus3• 3 years ago

...vi type movements...

Can attest vi movements can be learned on Dvorak. But have to admit it is not quite as nice, those movements were designed for qwerty.

Of course "j" and "k" are next to each other on Dvorak. "h" and "l" are also positioned at first and fourth fingers like qwerty... but on different rows and on different hand than "j/k". Which means Dvorak requires two-handed vi movements.

Maybe not a big deal, vi shortcuts mean moving all over the keyboard anyway. Just not quite as nice.

gorjusborg4• 3 years ago

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout.

I didn't stay with it because of two things:

  1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines

  2. Vim keybindings

cxr• 3 years ago

Vim is perfectly usable with Dvorak.

gorjusborg4• 3 years ago

Could you elaborate?

My experience was that vim keybindings are tied to characters, not key codes (position).

Insert is 'i', not the key at position of 'i' in QUERTY.

Maybe I was doing it wrong, but Vim, for me, is all about the interface and muscle memory. Having keys move position due to the different keyboard layout was a deal-breaker.

rgoulter4• 3 years ago

Vim keybindings

Dvorak's actually pretty good for vim keybindings.

While 'hjkl' is positionally significant; Dvorak 'jk' are still adjacent and easy to reach in Dvorak, and 'h' is still to the left of 'l' on the same hand.

Other keybindings are better remembered by the letter itself rather than by the position on the keyboard (e.g. "di'" or "gg"), so these aren't that much of an issue.

gorjusborg4• 3 years ago

The issue is that w/ decades of muscle-memory, having vim keys change position is a no-go.

Faaak2• 3 years ago

due to swapping onto other people's machines

I find it really easy to switch layouts though (either on linux with a `loadkeys dvorak`, or by quickly going to the menus).

gorjusborg4• 3 years ago

Admittedly, my experiment was a while ago. It might be easier now.

Faaak2• 3 years ago

Switched to dvorak ~10 years ago. The first 2 months were terrible: it took me 40 minutes to write a simple e-mail (no must not write the keys on the keyboard, but have a cheat sheet next to you to train your "muscle memory").

After some time though, in my case around a year, you start reaching your previous speed (in my case qwerty). I didn't gain speed but I gained a lot of muscular comfort. Indeed, you frequently do some weird gestures typing on a qwerty due to the dispositions of the keys. It's much rarer on dvorak and I'm really glad for that.

WillAdams• 3 years ago

When I was in the Air Force and had to take a typing class (on IBM Selectrics w/ blank keycaps), they had a couple set aside with Dvorak keyboard layouts --- everyone was offered the chance to "type out" on the first day, by typing 50 WPM or faster after adjusting for errors (I did 65).

The instructor noted that while folks often failed when testing on QWERTY, that he had never seen a formally trained Dvorak keyboard typist fail to type out, and that most were well above the average QWERTY speed.

bhahn• 3 years ago

I was exclusively using Dvorak on my home and work machines for 8 years, but switched back to QWERTY about 5 years ago. I loved the feel of Dvorak -- subjectively more comfortable -- but minor annoyances added up.

1. I didn't practice QWERTY, so when I used someone else's computer, it was always an exercise in re-jogging my memory

2. Having to use one hand/finger to type (don't ask me why :)) on DVORAK was super slow because I had to map manually each key in my brain because I couldn't rely on the letters on the physical key caps

Ultimately I also wasn't typing that much, even as a programmer, so it didn't make a huge difference for me, but I do miss it sometimes.

registeredcorn• 3 years ago

I had used a Dvorak layout for a few years and loved it. Ultimately, I switched back to Qwerty for a few fairly practical reasons:

1) Every video game I've ever played has had key bindings with Qwerty (or a controller) in mind. I would estimate that roughly 60%-ish of those games permit for some level of keyboard remapping. When remapping is possible, there will be bewildering exceptions for certain actions. When it's not possible, they are impossible to play.

Yes, I am aware you can switch between different layouts through the OS easily enough, but after I had gotten used to a letter being in a specific spot for Dvorak, and then being prompted to press it in a Qwerty layout, I found myself mis-typing extremely frequently for button prompts. It also became a chore to switch between them if I was in the middle of playing, then wanted type out a quick message in instant messenger.

2) Random bugs. I had noticed that for whatever reason, some programs just seemed to have some kind of issue with Dvorak layouts. I can't think of any specifics, it's been at least a decade since then, but it was something bizarre like: program recognizes that I was using a Dvorak layout except if I was using a keyboard shortcut.

3) It was weird that my cellphone was in a Qwerty layout but my computer wasn't. I seem to recall having a lot of issues trying to get Dvorak to work as the default layout.

4) I shared the computer with another family member. They complained that they had to learn the new layout. I convinced them it would improve their typing speed and they agreed. Eventually, they also started going to the library to do some research, which of course had a Qwerty layout. This caused an incredible amount of grief for them. Ultimately, this is the reason I switched back.

5) I seem to remember programming in general just being more uncomfortable in Dvorak. I think the punctuation I needed was in the upper left(?) which put a lot of extra strain on my left pinky.

I liked Dvorak quite a bit, but it just felt impractical. The world I live in just feels like it's setup for Qwerty, inefficient as that layout may be. I see it like if someone chose to become left-handed. You could do it, but if an much more popular method exists, and there is extra effort in going with the less popular one, for what amounts to the same outcome, why go through the struggle?

If things were to suddenly switch tomorrow, I'd gladly switch back, I just don't see much point in fighting for such a thing when we have a solution that is close enough.

ComputerGuru• 3 years ago

As a Dvorak user (for 20 years now), I always say "I came for the speed benefits that never materialized, but stayed for the ergonomics (reduced strain)"

washmyelbows• 3 years ago

same here!

If I could go back, I would've learned colemak for the keyboard shortcut reasons people have outlined in other comments, but I don't have it in me to learn another layout at this point.

hinkley• 3 years ago

I was dealing with RSI when I learned Dvorak. The speed appealed to my ego, but I was really just trying to save my career.

lucidguppy• 3 years ago

I learned dvorak - I would have stuck with it if I didn't have to have other people use my computer - or use other peoples computers.

Qwerty is fast enough...

atentaten• 3 years ago

As someone who is expertly proficient in QWERTY since my teens, is it even possible to learnDVORAK and be proficient in both in an ambidextrous sort of way?

davidgrenier• 3 years ago

Yes, maintaining your proficient in QWERTY is only a matter of not stopping to use it altogether when switching to a new layout. It'll just be a matter of time spent to become fluent in both. I recommend Colemak however.

I personally didn't maintaing typing on QWERTY, interestingly my brain still has the QWERTY mapping for tablets.

Jtsummers2• 3 years ago

Yes. When I switched to Dvorak (college, circa 2000 or 2001) my Qwerty speed dropped from around 60 to around 20, and Dvorak, after a couple months, was up to 60. Then 120. My Qwerty speed stayed low until I got a job where I didn't have full-control of all the computers I used (shared lab systems, didn't want to be rude and create confusion by adding a layout to them even if it was opt-in). At that point I was spending about half the day on my own work computer in Dvorak (still around 120 wpm) and half in Qwerty and my Qwerty speed went back to around 60-70.

If you don't want as big a delay (several years for me from when my Qwerty speed dropped to when it recovered), I'd suggest going "all in" on Dvorak for 3-6 months and then integrate some Qwerty time in deliberately to recover and then maintain your Qwerty proficiency.

codetrotter2• 3 years ago

I used to use Dvorak exclusively.

Now I use a mix of Dvorak some of the time and QWERTY some of the time.

I have a Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine keyboard, link to repo below. There’s a PDF linked from the reademe in the repo showing what my Dvorak layout looks like.

https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak

mondocat• 3 years ago

I learned to use the Dvorak keyboard and was quickly as fast, and then faster than Querty. That's not what interesting. I felt like my brain was unencumbered with the additional motor control required of the Querty layout, resulting in improved memory and cognitive ability while I was typing. I would love to see this effect experimentally tested.

adrian_b4• 3 years ago

I have switched to Dvorak only one year ago, after many decades of using QWERTY.

I consider this as one of my best decisions and my only regret is that I have not tried to do this many years earlier, because I had wrongly feared that typing Dvorak on a keyboard with QWERTY inscriptions might be a hindrance.

As many other posters have already said, the advantage of Dvorak is seldom a greater speed (and I needed a couple of months to recover the previous typing speed). The big advantage of Dvorak is a much greater comfort while typing. I will never go back to QWERTY.

Aachen7• 3 years ago

Did you have discomfort while typing on qwerty? That you noticed before trying Dvorak I mean.

adrian_b4• 3 years ago

When I was using QWERTY, I did not really have a feeling of discomfort, but I did not enjoy typing and sometimes I resented that this activity is unavoidable for transferring my thoughts into the computer.

After switching to Dvorak, even after only a few days and even if only significantly later I have reached and exceeded the previous typing speed, it already felt much easier to find by touch any key than it has ever felt on QWERTY, despite the fact that I have been using QWERTY since high school, for almost a half of century.

Now I enjoy typing and it feels effortlessly, which has never happened before.

So before trying Dvorak seriously, I was never concerned with the fact that the keyboard layout may be suboptimal. Only after the change the improvement has been obvious and I have realized that what I had been using previously had not been good enough.

Nevertheless, when someone wants to try another keyboard layout, an appropriate time must be chosen, when for a few days there is nothing that must be typed ASAP. During the first few days the drop in typing speed can be very large. The slow typing speed can be very frustrating and it is very difficult to resist the temptation of going back to the previous keyboard layout, for a normal typing speed.

geocrasher2• 3 years ago

I once decided that since I broke my left hand, it would be a good opportunity to learn Right Hand Dvorak. I was wrong. I was a terrible idea. Instead of being somewhat able to type with QWERTY, I was barely able to type at all with RH Dvorak. I tried it for a day, went back to QWERTY.

Jabrov• 3 years ago

It takes longer than a day though! It took me about 2 weeks to get accustomed to Dvorak, and maybe a few weeks more to start being faster than QWERTY

geocrasher2• 3 years ago

For sure- the issue though was that I was almost completely unproductive. I had work to do :)

mgbmtl• 3 years ago

Switching keyboards takes at least 2-4 weeks, in my opinion, to get to somewhat 80% speed of what you would expect.

Personally, switching to a "columnar" keyboard (Moonlander keyboard) took me about that time, but afterwards I could switch between keyboards without too much confusion. (I don't type faster, but I feel less pain from typing)

Aachen7• 3 years ago

I tried Dvorak for a ~month, on and off, and still didn't type as fast as with qwerty. Plus my qwerty performance was reducing.

Can't recommend to do anything but cold turkey (or at least 80% of the time or so), and most definitely you'll need more than a day. You can't conclude it's a bad layout from just one day of starting to learn it!

If I can recommend it at all, that is. If you regularly type on someone else's keyboard, it's already a no go. Yes, this is why we can't have nice things (it's objectively better than qwerty for pretty much any latin-script language that has vowels, yet we don't switch, and I'm basically recommending to maintain that status quo).

jcalvinowens• 3 years ago

I switched to Colemak a little over 10 years ago and I've never looked back. I used to struggle a lot with hand pain when typing for more than a few hours, Colemak completely fixed that.

It took me about three weeks to become proficient enough that typing stopped being frustrating. Those three weeks really sucked, that was the hardest part.

It took a couple years, but I'm solidly "bilingual" now and can switch between Colemak and Qwerty with no effort.

There is zero overlap in my brain with thumb typing on the phone and touch typing on a keyboard. I've kept qwerty on my pixel and it's never bothered or confused me once.

It's not really a win for me in terms of productivity, but being able to type 120wpm is fun :)

rsolva• 3 years ago

Your story is very similar to mine, I switched to Colemak in 2010 and it took about 3 weeks of 5 minutes bursts of practice a couple of times every day(ish).

I have never looked back. My motivation was moving my finger less, speed was just a bonus.

tome• 3 years ago

Eerily similar to mine too! Except I switched to Dvorak; Colemak didn't exist at the time :(

hakanderyal2• 3 years ago

You can use Dvorak and QWERTY together.

I’ve been using Programmers Dvorak together with QWERTY for 10+ years. Whenever I need to use common shortcuts I switch layouts with a simple shortcut, and sometimes do this dance a few times if a few seconds subconsciously as needed.

Typing speed is unimportant, it’s the reduced strain that is the main benefit.

nashashmi2• 3 years ago

So whenever you are constantly typing, you move to Dvorak? Otherwise you are in QWERTY?

hakanderyal2• 3 years ago

Nope, I’m using Dvorak mainly, but switch to QWERTY when I need to use shortcuts with one hand while the other is using the mouse (when designing in Figma etc).

fallat• 3 years ago

Another 10+ year user of this reporting in. It's 10000% not the speed but the reduced strain. I used to get bad pain from typing 60wpm in QWERTY for 30 minutes. I can type 100WPM constantly for the whole day with zero pain since the days I switched in college. It took me 3 times to change, but once I forced myself it was great.

Edit: And want to clarify from reading other comments: I was a touch typist on QWERTY, had the recommended posture, and even used ergonomic keyboards. The pain happens in your knuckles and back of your hand, not wrists. Zero of that ten years later.

brodouevencode• 3 years ago

Most of the comments seem to be "I switched to Dvorak and love it" with a couple of "I switched to Dvorak but had to go back to QWERTY for other people".

Is there anyone that became sufficiently proficient with Dvorak and regret it/wished they hadn't wasted their time?

GloriousKoji• 3 years ago

I wish I didn't. I loved DVORAK when I used it and wish it was the standard so all the video game keys and office shortcuts didn't require a QWERTY layout but I feel like using DVORAK permanently ruined the keyboard pathway in my brain. When went back to QWERTY my typing accuracy took a hit compared to what it was before learning DVORAK. A couple decades later it still feels like I don't have absolute mastery of any keyboard layout anymore.

ziml77• 3 years ago

Shortcuts and default keybindings are exactly why I haven't touched Dvorak. I don't want to remap them in every application I use (if the application even supports that). And the remapping might not even be consistent. Take Ctrl-C for example. When it comes to editing text, I'd want to remap it into the same position because on QWERTY theres a bunch of others set up to all be next to each other and easy to press with just the left hand. But when it comes to sending a SIGINT, I'd want that to remain as Ctrl-C no matter where C is located.

projektfu• 3 years ago

I switched in 1998 and kept it up for several years. BYOD wasn't a thing back then so I had to be able to switch but it wasn't that hard. My main gripe was relearning emacs, never got efficient at it. Too much muscle memory and less memory of the names of the key sequences.

I was an 80 wpm typist since 1993. On Dvorak I never got that fast even on a Model M, which I was wicked fast on using QWERTY. Eventually the laptop keyboards took over and my accuracy and comfort plummeted overall.

I think most problems could be solved by sitting properly and typing on a keyboard with good response like Cherry MX Brown or buckling spring keyboards, and not using a palm rest.

sl0tr4cer• 3 years ago

I have used Dvorak keyboards with my Linux desktop for many years

dadoum• 3 years ago

Dvorak is also based on English spelling, and thus its benefits vanish almost everywhere in the world. There are other alternative layouts, having the same kind of marginal gain over the standard, but then it's not available everywhere, and if you're a developer, you may also want an easier access to braces and stuff, and from here your keyboard will basically work nowhere unless you buy some kind of custom hardware to do the translation.

And it also has the same problem to me as QWERTY, it makes numbers accessible while I don't care since most keyboards have a numpad (and to enter a number holding shift isn't hard) while for example it adds a significant amount of keystrokes to open and close a brace.

adrian_b4• 3 years ago

Regardless whether one uses Dvorak or QWERTY, it is good to revert the effect of the shift key on the 10 numeric keys of the upper row.

Thus the non-alphanumeric symbols, which are more frequent in programming languages, are available directly, while keeping shift pressed for the entire duration of a number is easy, so it is a minor disadvantage.

I also find useful to map the 3 pairs of ASCII brackets on 3 keys, so that the opening brackets are available directly and the closing brackets with shift. I need very seldom to type the closing brackets, as they are normally inserted automatically by most editors.

EduardoBautista2• 3 years ago

The benefits don't vanish completely, since vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.

a1369209993• 3 years ago

vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.

Also "s" "t" and "n" are fairly-to-very common in damn near every language (Latin-alphabet or otherwise) due to how phonetics works. (They're the default-voiced-ness for each manner of articulation at the most-default-ish - alveolar - place of articulation for consonant phonemes.) The other two - "h" and "d" - are less universal, but still better than "j" and "g".

robbyking• 3 years ago

Do people really make the assumption that the QWERTY keyboard's layout is random? I'm GenX and I was taught the reason given in the video.

gnicholas5• 3 years ago

I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?

toyg5• 3 years ago

I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try.

To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing.

How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colemak, going back to Qwerty just felt painful - even when I was going faster, it felt so much more stressful.

gnicholas5• 3 years ago

Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something?

I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.

Aachen7• 3 years ago

Do you mean that you run a speed reading startup or really a speed-reading startup?

gnicholas5• 3 years ago

Hopefully both: https://www.beelinereader.com

Some people use our tools for speed reading; others use it as an assistive technology for reading, or for helping kids learn to read.

gnicholas5• 3 years ago

So he mentions the "popular" belief that QWERTY was designed to avoid jams from typists hitting adjacent keys in rapid succession, but he doesn't say whether this is untrue or not. It seemed implied that this is false, but I'm left uncertain. Does anyone know?

toyg5• 3 years ago

Wikipedia links a short paper discussing this: https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433...

TL;DR: it's more likely it was just the result of a series of progressive compromises, as keyboards moved from telegraph to typewriting.

Aachen7• 3 years ago

Agreed, the video is way too short (basically he gives the introduction and then thanks us for watching?!) and doesn't answer the question. The HN comment thread is interesting but the video leaves the viewer sitting with a finger half raised at the screen going "I still have questions"

StrangeATractor• 3 years ago

...because it breaks vi.

Andrew_nenakhov4• 3 years ago

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less.

This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY.

Interestingly, all Dvorak advantages on regular keyboard become severe disadvantages on smartphones: Dvorak is optimised for alternating hands while typing as much as possible, but when you type with one thumb, you constantly need to move your finger from one side of a keyboard to another. One could probably come with a screen keyboard layout optimized to type with one finger, but I'm yet to see such keyboard.

lbourdages• 3 years ago

OSX has a Dvorak-Qwerty-⌘ layout where commands use the Qwerty letters so people switching can keep their muscle memory.

It helped when I tried to learn, but I abandoned because I felt like the effort wasn't worth it. I already type fast enough for my needs.

Andrew_nenakhov4• 3 years ago

I actually tried that and it's very confusing, because now no keys are corresponding to new positions of English letters.

I ended up creating my own Dvorak and Cyrillic layouts, so that Cyrillic layout has hotkeys on their Dvorak positions (in most apps, but not all), and Dvorak layout has some keys like -,= on the same positions as ЙЦУКЕН Cyrillic layout.

Still, I didn't yet find a way to make this layout default for a system: macOS refuses to use one of these on lock screen to enter password, but that's a minor inconvenience.

kenhwang• 3 years ago

I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY on my computer keyboards primarily because of the shortcuts being a mess.

But since I only exclusively type with two thumbs on my phone, Dvorak is noticeably faster than QWERTY.

Andrew_nenakhov4• 3 years ago

I usually hold my phone with just one hand, and, sadly, my hand has only one thumb.

scott00• 3 years ago

Messagease is an on-screen phone keyboard optimized for single finger use:

https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php

I get about 30 words per minute with it.

Andrew_nenakhov4• 3 years ago

Very interesting, thank you. I'll definitely try it out.

kazinator• 3 years ago

Could one reason that Dvorak didn't catch on is that its established rival, QWERTY, was not randomly designed?

QWERTY supposedly helps to reduce jams.

Dvorak was introduced at a time in which that was still a problem, before electric typewriters.

If Dvorak didn't actually produce its speed advantages on a classic, mechanical typewriter in which a semicircular gallery of arms concentrate their strikes on the same tiny location on the ink ribbon, typists trying Dvorak would have found that Dvorak's claims don't actually hold up.

mgreenw• 3 years ago

I wrote a blog post about my experience with Dvorak!

TL;DR It's great, but if you're interested you should use Colemak. Once you switch you won't go back.

https://maxgreenwald.me/blog/switching-to-dvorak

osbert• 3 years ago

I built a simulator to allow you to experience what it is like to type in Dvorak before committing to learn the layout. It assumes that you can touch-type in QWERTY. Enter some text into the first text box, and it gives you the equivalent keypresses to make [in QWERTY] that would output the same sentence in Dvorak.

https://dvorak.iterinc.com/

https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2

A former colleague of mine graciously contributed Colemak as an option as well.

barroomhero• 3 years ago

This is great! Also seems like a simple code engine.

Kjg; g; uodak! Ap;s ;ddm; pgvd a ;gmrpd ishd dluglde

Aachen7• 3 years ago

That's called a substitution cipher and can be defeated by hand by using frequency analysis, in case anyone wanted to know that. Please don't call the party pooper police!

agnosticmantis2• 3 years ago

I wonder if a keyboard optimized for typists (typing in English with the most common word being ‘the’) is also optimal for programmers (writing code in say Python, with the most commonly used word likely being ‘def’ or ‘if’). The statistics of the two corpora should be different.

Aachen7• 3 years ago

I expect there'll be a difference in which layout is optimal when analysing an average python code base with names (variables, functions, etc.) in your language versus regular text in that language, but honestly this is not where typing holds me back. Very rarely do I max out on typing speed for just a few minutes when coding something greenfield. Even if we're talking comfort rather than speed, you'd probably get 99% of the way by laying out symbols differently and leaving the letters and digits untouched.

agnosticmantis2• 3 years ago

Agreed on optimal with respect to either task will be much better than QWERTY overall.

the__alchemist• 3 years ago

IMO not worth it when switching between personal and shared computers, OS shortcuts like copy/paste, or when executing programs that code the raw key inputs vice characters, like games. Juice was not worth squeeze for me.

maximilianroos• 3 years ago

Ironically Qwerty is extremely well-designed for typing on a touchscreen phone.

Dvorak was designed to have common characters on home keys and common character sequences alternate between each hand.

That's great on a keyboard with 4 fingers on each hand. On a touch screen, that's really bad! Characters close together complicate touchscreen recognition - is it "poet", "peet", or "pout"? And consecutive characters on opposite sides of the keyboard creates lots of movement for a single thumb.

Instead, Qwerty has common characters spread out across the keyboard, and many common character sequences close together (e.g. "-ed", "tion"). Which is exactly the pattern that is fast & accurate on a touchscreen.

xx__yy• 3 years ago

I've had the on-screen keyboard on my phone set to Dvorak for > 5 years, and I just can't switch back to Qwerty. I think it's quite good for the phone.

nayuki• 3 years ago

I documented my Dvorak experience in an FAQ. https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak

euroderf3• 3 years ago

Obv it would be helpful/nice/cool to have reconfigurable keycaps, where the keycap's legend (LED-enhanced) could display whatever character you choose.

Each key glowing in conformance with your current keyboard layout of choice.

The last time I searched around for something like this, all I could find was some guy in Russia who had hacked up a positively brilliant-looking homebrew keyboard.

amenghra• 3 years ago

Never used it, but there's https://www.nemeio.com/

With the right software, you could even "improve" the layout on a daily basis based on the most used keys the previous day.

euroderf3• 3 years ago

Looks sleek! No pricing. Sign me up anyways.

Ready for APL, music, IPA, Linear B, ...

explorigin• 3 years ago

Workman user checking in. Every positive thing about dvorak is also true for workman plus you get easy control keys and easier learning from qwerty.

milohax• 3 years ago

I learnt Dvorak in 2 weeks and got back to my hunt-and-peck QWERTY speed within a month, within 2 I was typing 60-70WPM without effort, and about 90% accuracy. I did this with no formal training and my only motivation was that at that time I couldn't afford an "ergonomic keyboard" and had heard that Dvorak was better, so I gave it a try. It's also an ANSI standard so I didn't have to install any weird software, just choose it in the operating system settings.

I no longer have shooting pains up my arms. Whether that's a result of the ergonomics of Dvorak, or simply that I can touch type, is not something I'm qualified to answer, but what I can say is that:

- Dvorak is easy to learn

- only takes mild motivation to get good at

- is more comfortable

which leads to better typing habits that are good for you physically and make you a faster typist than hunt-and-peck, with less effort than learning to touch type on QWERTY.

Would I learn Dvorak these days over another layout like Colemak or whatever is the favorite today? Yes, I would, because it's a standard. I think we're at diminishing returns (for English) so it doesn't really matter: anything is better than QWERTY, even ABCDE...

Slackwise• 3 years ago

So, why not a steno keyboard instead?

While DVORAK may only be a 5% improvement over QWERTY, a steno keyboard is vastly superior in typing speed and ergonomics, as it's used by courtroom stenographers keeping up with recording speech. (And if you learn on a proper steno keyboard, your muscle memory won't get all confused because the keys are entirely different.)

felix318• 3 years ago

Somewhat unrelated: shouldn’t it be pronounced “Dvorjak”? That is how the other famous Dvorak (Czech composer) is pronounced.

BrotherBisquick• 3 years ago

I could never get past the idea of a key sending a different keystroke than the one printed on it.

Yes, I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard as you type. And I don't. But I still don't like it. It sets off "this is dumb" alarm bells in my head.

And because it's impossible to replace every keyboard I own or use, or physically rearrange their keys from QWERTY to Dvorak/Colemak, i'm stuck with QWERTY.

euroderf3• 3 years ago

I'm thinking, just tape a few DIY legends onto a few key keys (heh) and then glance at a paper cheat sheet for the rest. Repeat as necessary.

strus• 3 years ago

I’ve tried Dvorak and Colemak but went back to QWERTY. Whole software world is developed with QWERTY in mind, and it was too much PITA.

Split keyboard (especially with ortholinear, column staggered layout) will give you much more benefit than any alternative layout - and will be much easier to switch too.

Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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