Flu and colds are back with a vengeance

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03666-9

by Brajeshwar • 4 years ago

151 214 4 years ago

rossdavidh2• 4 years ago

Hensley says that this is because the population “is more immunologically naive than what we would expect in most years”. Normally, children get infected by their second birthday. Now, “you’re going to end up having kids that are three, four years of age right now who have never seen RSV”.

...it reminds me of the phenomenon that, the longer you go between busts/economic recessions, the worse they tend to be, because you will tend to have more zombie companies ready to go under. Sometimes what seems like preventing a problem, is actually just storing up problems to experience all at once at a later date.

slindsey• 4 years ago

That seems to be a problem in other areas as well, such as wildfires.

rossdavidh2• 4 years ago

Good point.

VancouverMan• 4 years ago

This shouldn't be surprising. The economy, forestry, and healthcare are all examples of government intervention that introduces artificial distortions that make a situation worse than it otherwise would have been had natural balances been allowed to proceed without those artificial distortions.

boringg• 4 years ago

Life is a delicate balance in all things.

hedgehog2• 4 years ago

Intuitively it sounds nice but I haven't seen any actual evidence that this is what's happening. It seems a lot like the story that kids don't get COVID, a feel-good story but not really based on anything but hopeful speculation.

peteradio2• 4 years ago

like the story that kids don't get COVID

What story is that? Are you sure you aren't misparaphrasing the fact that kids are not susceptible to severe outcomes?

boplicity• 4 years ago

Based on my (admittedly) anectdotal evidence: there's been very little mask wearing for almost a year, and in that time a very large percentage of the people I've known have gotten various colds and/or COVID. (This summer, it seems almost everyone who hadn't had it yet, finally got it.)

The big shift happened when they lifted the mask mandate for schools here in early 2022: Our kids came back with a cold every 2 weeks, for approximately 2.5 months. That was not fun.

All of which is to say that it's not clear at all that we've been "storing up" a problem -- and if we have, much of it has already been let out of storage, so to speak.

proc0• 4 years ago

It would seem to me masks are precisely "storing up" the problem, especially with children and younger people who are not that much at risk. In retro, I guess masks and lockdowns only delayed the inevitable, which to some extent was justified, but I think as this article suggests, it has a price.

heywherelogingo• 4 years ago

Counter-anecdote. I've never worn a mask, not once. I live in London - noteworthy population size and density. Still waiting to experience something resembling covid - I'll settle for a cold.

wrycoder3• 4 years ago

Isolation would be moderately effective, but the surgical procedure masks that people have been wearing are not effective against virus. N95 masks are needed for that, and they have not been available until recently.

mschuster915• 4 years ago

Normally, children get infected by their second birthday. Now, “you’re going to end up having kids that are three, four years of age right now who have never seen RSV”.

In an ideal world, we'd vaccinate children against RSV. Acquiring immunity by suffering through an actual infection is always, always worse than acquiring it by a vaccine. About 100k children die from RSV each year!

Thankfully, there are vaccines in the pipeline [1], and I seriously hope that mRNA technology will increase both the development speed and the availability of vaccines in general.

[1] https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta...

taolegal9• 4 years ago

Acquiring immunity by suffering through an actual infection is always, always worse than acquiring it by a vaccine

say that to the whoever ends up coming down with narcolepsy, thrombocytopenia, acute peri/myo-carditis, shingles reactivation, etc.

jefftk• 4 years ago

Acquiring immunity by suffering through an actual infection is always, always worse than acquiring it by a vaccine.

I mean, yes, but only because that's one of our criteria for approving a new vaccine.

butler14• 4 years ago

Sanofi have just today announced a clinical trial for a new RSV vaccine https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63572228.amp

sp332• 4 years ago

RSV is more dangerous for young children. Putting off exposure for a couple of years should reduce the number of serious cases. It's not one of those things like chicken pox where, if you're going to get it, it's better to get it younger.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.8266...

taolegal9• 4 years ago

Putting off exposure for a couple of years

lets lock kids in solitary confinement until it's safe to leave, good plan /s

User233• 4 years ago

Or maybe it’s less dangerous for older children because they were already exposed as younger children.

Immunology is really tricky because the human immune system is quite complex. These kinds of findings sadly need to be taken with a grain of salt.

c_o_n_v_e_x• 4 years ago

My daughter was born at 29 weeks. After getting out of NICU, our neonatologist strongly recommended Palivizumab to give her by immunity as RSV for premies is bad news. The catch is that insurance didnt cover it and it cost about 1300 SGD per dose.

deegles• 4 years ago

I believe the increased hospitalization rates are due to is the immune system damage damage caused by Covid.

tiahura• 4 years ago

A reasonable theory, but as the article points out, last year, as Omicron infections increased, flu decreased. This year, Omicron down & flu up.

dan_can_code• 4 years ago

Does it bother anyone else when large publications leave spelling mistakes or incomplete sentences in an article? It seems to be occuring more often. In this case, the first sentence of the subtitle: 'COVID-19 restrictions mean we are more susceptible these viruses'. Proof read just once, and you realise a word is missing.

mkoubaa• 4 years ago

Read newton and einsteins famous papers and it'll bother you less

whywhywhywhy• 4 years ago

Didn’t realize they were employed to write.

Sharlin• 4 years ago

Reputable publications generally employ editors. An author’s primary job is not to output flawless language. An editor’s is.

willio58• 4 years ago

You don’t even need to manually proof read.. how these publications don’t require a once-through with something like grammarly is astounding to me.

groovybits• 4 years ago

Heh, two sides of a coin I guess. I see a lot of HNers denounce Grammarly as a keylogger, and that 'no one should use it'.

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+...

karaterobot• 4 years ago

Oh, it bothers the heck out of me. I assume the calculus they did was that it's cheaper to lay off most of the editors and fact checkers, and it won't make much difference to the bottom line, since most people don't even read the text of the article anyway. Just make sure the headline is punchy and you'll get those precious clicks.

xeromal2• 4 years ago

It's what we get since we don't pay for news en masse.

k__3• 4 years ago

I got a flu a month ago and still struggle a bit.

danwee• 4 years ago

Same. I still got mucus in the back of my throat. It's not bad but annoying. I remember having the flu and being "cured" 1 week later. This time it's taking longer.

k__3• 4 years ago

Yes, same for me.

stjohnswarts2• 4 years ago

Had you had a flu vaccine yet or even last year? just curious.

k__3• 4 years ago

twstdzppr3• 4 years ago

Get your flu shot, and a bivalent covid booster.

aabceh• 4 years ago

Why?

twstdzppr3• 4 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

miduil• 4 years ago

Surprised reading "immunity debt" after seeing this

https://twitter.com/unbiasedscipod/status/158891593499112652...

https://nitter.net/unbiasedscipod/status/1588915934991126529

bheadmaster2• 4 years ago

May be relevant:

https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1588886664612818945

https://nitter.net/apsmunro/status/1588886664612818945

ceejayoz9• 4 years ago

The citation linked is flagged as "editorial", and the abstract says "may be". Anyone got a link to the full pub?

These are scenarios where I really want an expert to summarize the current state of what's known rather than trying to figure it out from a PubMed search, especially when there seem to be competing opinions.

candiddevmike• 4 years ago

People still use Twitter?

mrits• 4 years ago

I know next to nothing about this area. However, I have an immunologist next to me that says it actually is a thing and a phrased used in literature. I hate the internet sometimes.

legitster2• 4 years ago

Ummm... this doesn't sound like they are describing the same thing. No one is arguing that our immune systems have "shut down". The argument is that the immune system hasn't been keeping up on exposures.

bitshiftfaced• 4 years ago

She's talking about the strength of an individual's immune system. She doesn't seem to be talking about herd immunity or how the pandemic has potentially changed population dynamics.

For example, "debt" could be referring to the fact that many people might've already gotten [insert infection name here] over the last couple of years, but they did not, and now there's an increased number of people who don't have immunity to it compared to a world where there not been a pandemic. The fact that this was ignored almost seems misleading given that she claims to be an immunologist.

beardedman2• 4 years ago

Our immune systems can't just "take a break" like it did during the pandemic. Its a muscle, you don't use it; it atrophies.

0xAFFFF• 4 years ago

Your immune system doesn't "take breaks", if it would you'd just die pretty quickly. The immune systems is constantly confronted to the germs in your environment and doesn't have to be actively fighting an identified disease to keep working properly. There is no such thing as "immunity debt".

nh23423fefe• 4 years ago

Seems incorrect. If I don't use my fingernails why do they grow?

I guess making up analogies doesn't work....

xeromal2• 4 years ago

I played basketball and worked outside doing heavy labor in my adolescence and I never had to cut my nails due to them wearing away. I miss that.

Juliate4• 4 years ago

Not exactly.

Your immune system actually never takes a break: it's continually working intensely, that's why/when you're not ill most of the time.

Case in point: your body _constantly_ gets "agressions" from bacterias, viruses, germs from the air your breathe, the things/people you touch, the scratches you make, what you eat.

When you get symptoms (a flu, a cold, whatever disease), it's because your immune system gets overwhelmed, is working even harder, has a hard time to keep up.

When you get exhausted for other reasons (not enough sleep, too much exercise, stress, etc.) your body has less energy for your immune system to work properly. This explains why you easily catch an infection you wouldn't when you're not exhausted.

stjohnswarts2• 4 years ago

It's more like it "got a break" because people were quarantines, so now you haven't had the flu for 3 years it will be less likely to handle it than if you had it last year. Flu spreads primarily via bodily fluids (door knobs, touchy kids, etc) and people are now more likely to get it and a huge swathe of the population hasn't had it in a while, hence this year will likely be a bad one, along with more people who haven't had flu in a while.

throw827474737• 4 years ago

Simplified analogies suck... there is more and more evidence that (some) virus infections can have a damaging accumulating effect (it depends though and the biggest factor seems to be the individual). By your simplified analogy it would seem logical to expose oneself to any virus as often as someone does not "overexercise" the muscle, which is really not recommended!!! It doesn't make you stronger, it can weaken and permanetly damage you! Some things are lethal, some things are damaging, hyperhygiene especially in childhood is not good, but still hygiene is a profound reason our civilization does better in many regards.. it is a tight balance everyone needs to decide for his own (and to his own conditions).

Please don't propagate that our immune system is a muscle we need to train (in that simplified way).

nradov8• 4 years ago

The immune system seems to work in somewhat the opposite way that you suggest. There is growing evidence to support the hygiene hypothesis. Living in overly sterile environments can cause the immune system to go haywire and start attacking the body's own tissues (autoimmune disease). We co-evolved with germs, and need a constant exposure to some level of germs to stay healthy.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05349-x

ceejayoz9• 4 years ago

This is readily debunked by the fact that polio vaccines work long-term despite most folks having zero ongoing exposure to the antigens in question.

peteradio2• 4 years ago

Each virus is unique. Polio doesn't evolve the same way cold or flu viruses do.

beardedman2• 4 years ago

Yes yes, bad analogy.

pelagicAustral• 4 years ago

Can confirm. Started feeling a bit ill last Monday, then it was like all hell has broken loose, next Monday it will be two weeks and I'm still not feeling 100% back.

ryanlitalien• 4 years ago

Thought it was just me! I'm really usually pretty healthy, but a few back to back colds is unusual.

docandrew• 4 years ago

+1. My wife and I have had lingering respiratory symptoms and sinus issues off and on for a month now. Tested negative for flu and COVID. Definitely some bad stuff going around right now.

stuff4ben• 4 years ago

Thanks for the reminder to schedule my flu shot!

nsxwolf• 4 years ago

It's interesting that it took this long to report on this. Kids have been getting hammered for weeks. Most pediatric units in the Chicago area disappeared in the last 2 years, and doctors are getting creative finding beds for kids.

There's something that's just not sexy about RSV - it's far more dangerous to children than COVID is, yet there's hardly any coverage. If this many kids were getting COVID, I would wager we'd be seeing a high volume of alarmist coverage.

nradov8• 4 years ago

That many kids are getting COVID-19. But COVID-19 was never a significant risk for otherwise healthy children. It's literally just a cold, very similar in effects to the other 4 endemic human coronaviruses.

Yes, there have been a few cases where healthy children suffered serious symptoms but the absolute numbers are tiny.

terminatornet3• 4 years ago

completely untrue, kids under 6 months have high hospitalization according to the cdc

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7145a3.htm?s_cid=mm...

Among 473 infants aged <6 months hospitalized during the Omicron BA.2/BA.5 variant-predominant period, 397 (84%) had COVID-19–related symptoms. Among all 473 infants, 174 (38%) were aged <1 month; 69 (39%) of these were birth hospitalizations (Table 2). Among infants who received a positive SARS-CoV-2 test result during the birth hospitalization, 60 (87%) were asymptomatic

84% of all hospitalizations for <6 months seems less than ideal.

whimsicalism• 4 years ago

RSV was never going to kill anywhere near as many people as COVID did.

There probably are this many kids getting COVID.

bilsbie• 4 years ago

Maybe they don’t want to start another panic? Let our economy and our souls heal a bit?

quantified• 4 years ago

Fast reporting risks bad information, and we've seen how that goes.

Reporting on the facts can go quickly, but reporting that includes recommendations and impacts gets really risky as we now know.

twstdzppr3• 4 years ago

Seems like we need an RSV vaccine. Flu, covid, and RSV managed by vaccine would be really nice. Colds are a bit easier to handle, at least.

ceejayoz9• 4 years ago

My kids were preemies (born last day of the second trimester) and RSV was The Big Bad for the first couple of years. They got put on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palivizumab - a vaccine would be spectacular.

It's my understanding some candidates are in trials now.

prewett• 4 years ago

I suspect a lot of these flus are Covid... I just got Covid recently, but I only felt ill for maybe two days. I only tested myself because I'm in a choir that requires testing for certain rehearsals, otherwise I would have figured it's "the flu" or something. The guy I sat next to this week said he had a similar illness a few weeks ago, but he didn't test himself and attributed it to a random cold (but was surprised he's had lingering symptoms).

dustedcodes• 4 years ago

From my experience if someone under the age of 50 has mild cold like symptoms or as you did only feels ill for about two days then the chance of it being COVID is IMHO higher than the flu. I think in young people the flu hits you much harder and you never get away with less than a week minimum of feeling ill but with COVID one could have no symptoms or mild symptoms for less than a week which is very common.

rzimmerman• 4 years ago

You're probably right - I think a lot of people have a fundamental misunderstanding of severity and statistics here. As far as I can tell, if you have respiratory "cold"/"flu" symptoms, it's most likely that it's COVID, just based on prevalence and contagiousness.

Also, a lot of people haven't had the flu in years - it's not mild. It's often a week of being miserable in bed, not two days of sniffles. Mild COVID can feel like a cold, but COVID is more contagious and (I believe) more prevalent at this point. If you have any of those symptoms, you should probably assume it is COVID and take a test if you need to be around others.

anon2912• 4 years ago

People say this and I cannot fathom it. I just tested positive for flu last week. Yes I took one day off work. Yes I had a fever. But I kept working and other than isolating, lived my life as normal. If you're stuck in bed for a week I would seriously consider your health. Flu was one day of high fever and a few days of sniffles and this is confirmed influenza. Seriously Americans are way too unhealthy. Even COVID... Everyone said it was a week and I had one day of high fever (but I didd take my free week off works that was great!)

bryanlarsen• 4 years ago

counterpoint: several flu variants were extinguished by social distancing etc.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/06/02/pandemic-upside-flu-viru...

2 steps forward, 1 step back.

lsy2• 4 years ago

People seem to think that there's an effect where the individual immune system gets weaker with disuse. AFAICT this isn't the case. The "debt" here is the same debt you incur if you have a Windows PC you only boot up every few months: You'll be slammed with updates when you turn it on, but you aren't getting any more updates than before, in fact you may even get fewer as point upgrades are skipped (e.g. someone who avoids Covid Alpha-Delta but gets Omicron). But since they are all coming quickly it feels extreme.

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, RSV is more dangerous to younger children, so delaying infection is probably advantageous on a population level. I don't think there is any evidence that the severity of any of these diseases is higher when amortized over the years we had very low incidences, we are just seeing more disease total in a short period of time as restrictions are lifted.

TheBlight3• 4 years ago

I don't think it has much to do with restrictions being lifted. They didn't seem to impede the spread of sars-cov-2. What was stopping the spread of more familiar respiratory viruses was likely viral interference with sars-cov2. The now much higher level of naturally acquired immunity to sars-cov-2 is most likely why other viruses are coming back.

taeric7• 4 years ago

Maybe? Schools being closed was a real thing that put a pretty heavy stop on spread.

taeric7• 4 years ago

This feels like a distinction without a difference? Since much of your immune system is not replacing old protections, but modifying them, I think it is fair to question if skipping some exposure is possibly dangerous?

Granted "to question" is doing a lot of work in my last sentence there. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion. Would be very interested in seeing it explored. Closest my memory has to this is introducing kids to preschools. The new kids are always the ones getting most sick. Same for homeschoolers going to college. They will spend a ton of time catching up on sicknesses they missed out on.

sanedigital4• 4 years ago

There's a difference. In the "hygiene hypothesis" model—the one where your immune system weakens without exposure—getting a cold makes you less likely to get the flu. That doesn't appear to be true. In reality, since the cold and the flu aren't biologically related, one does not confer immunity for the other.

That's not to say the "hygiene hypothesis" is completely false. There's good evidence that exposing children to low level pathogens early and often helps reduce autoimmune conditions like allergies, asthma, and arthritis. It just doesn't effect viral response.

duxup• 4 years ago

Doesn’t immunity fade over time for some diseases if you’re not exposed?

I think this is more of an “it depends” situation than a hard and fast rule.

chedca212• 4 years ago

If T-cell count and function is normal immunity should last. The idea that immunity wanes is coming from universities looking at antibodies (a different immune cell) as markers for vaccine efficacy. Industry prefers that way because waning antibodies means they'll sell more "boosters"

NickM• 4 years ago

AFAICT this isn't the case

Is this a "as far as I can tell based on my knowledge of immunology" or "as far as I can tell based off of personal experience and gut feeling"?

I mean, what you're saying sounds plausible, but on the other hand it also sounds plausible that maybe periodic exposure to random viruses and stuff does strengthen your immune system, so I'm curious if your take here is actually based in science or is just an off-the-cuff idea.

Juliate4• 4 years ago

The strength of your immune system is the energy your body has to provide.

What's influenced/improved through (accidental or controlled/vaccines) exposure is it memory.

Although exposure can also have other consequences on the whole body, if the system is overwhelmed/can't cope.

timmytokyo• 4 years ago

As far as I can tell based off of personal experience, HN is full of armchair experts on topics outside their realm of expertise. Heck, I even play one myself now and then.

lsy2• 4 years ago

This is what immunologists are saying pretty much everywhere you look. I thought "AFAICT" was clear enough that 1) I have tried to find this out and 2) from what I can tell the preponderance of opinion from people who seem qualified to say so is that your immune system doesn't "weaken" because you are avoiding infection. Even TFA quotes an immunologist calling the idea of individual-level immune system weakening "nonsense". I could also be wrong or looking at the wrong sources. I don't want to stop anyone from looking this up themselves, finding out what experts are saying, and making a judgment of their own. We don't have to stick with folk science or what "sounds plausible".

My comment was mainly to point up the analogy for seeing more infections today primarily because there were fewer infections before, not primarily because everyone's immune system is weakened. There are of course other concerns with disease burden and herd immunity overshoot. I do fear people are stretching the Windows Update analogy too thin, as your immune system isn't a computer and the dynamics are more complex (e.g. it doesn't matter if you avoid Covid Alpha and don't ever become perfectly immune to it, because there is hardly any of it circulating anymore, and your Omicron infection has some cross-immunity).

_aavaa_2• 4 years ago

Except the issue with the delay is captured by your analogy perfectly:

You'll be slammed with updates when you turn it on.

For a computer that isn’t an issue. But consider the health impact of “getting slammed” with several months, or take to an extreme, several years of missed immunity “updates”

IMTDb• 4 years ago

Even for computers; for a critical system I'd rather plan some small incremental updates regularly to keep it healthy and under control rather than do nothing for a few years and suddenly go a mega-update of the whole kernel + shared lib + dependencies in one go, hoping that everything is going to be OK.

osigurdson• 4 years ago

There are definitely datapoints that suggest lack of exposure leads to lower functioning immune system. The story of the Lykov hermits is a fairly compelling anecdote as many of them died once reintroduced to others. Of course, it could have been something else.

themitigating• 4 years ago

Native Americans

Barrin922• 4 years ago

Epidemiologists are gathering more and more evidence for what has been dubbed the "hygiene-hypothesis", namely that lack of education of the immune system at an early age increases the risk for several diseases including asthma, IBS, several auto-immune disorders among others.

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/consumers-biolo...

sanedigital4• 4 years ago

Right, but that has no bearing on response to viruses. Having the cold doesn't make it less likely for you catch the flu, for instance.

lazide• 4 years ago

My youngest has gotten RSV twice this year, which is hard to do, among about 15 other illnesses, including COVID multiple times, flus and cold, etc.

It’s bad even by ‘2 yr old at daycare’ standards.

5 ER trips and a hospitalization due to breathing difficulties bad.

joshhart• 4 years ago

Sorry to hear that. I’m a parent and that sounds scary and awful

terminatornet3• 4 years ago

looking forward to 5 years from now when we're still saying lockdowns (not leaving our houses for 4 weeks in 2020) are causing immunity debt.

dcchambers• 4 years ago

My own anecdotes:

- I have a ~20-month-old in daycare. He brings something home every couple weeks. This is our first child so I have no idea if this is normal or unique to this time period.

- Coworkers with children seem to be dealing with a lot more "wow that wiped us out for a week" type of symptoms versus the typical "sniffles and sore throat" symptoms associated with the common cold.

- I have had two cold/flu type bugs this year (not COVID, confirmed by at-home tests) that put me on my ass for a few days. I haven't had that happen in 10+ years.

Extra context: I am vaccinated for COVID, yet I still had COVID this past year. COVID was mild, mostly achy/headache-y that lasted about 2 days. No breathing issues or loss of smell/taste. I attribute that to the vaccination. I did not get my flu shot yet this year but am planning to do so.

Stay safe out there, friends.

rcarr• 4 years ago

Anecdotally experienced similar: tested negative for covid so assuming it was flu unless it was a false reading of course. Worse illness I’ve had in over a decade. Lasted about 5 weeks from start to finish unless the lingering cough and tiredness was a secondary infection.

j00pY• 4 years ago

Perfectly normal I'm afraid. My 3 year old managed to go the entire summer without a cold which was great progress. As soon as the weather changed, she got sick again.

bluedino• 4 years ago

1. Normal

2. You also have a kid and have more co-worker kid talk, so that's just something you wouldn't be aware of before

3. You've been getting less sleep as a new parent and you've also got a little petri dish living in your house now.

xorcist2• 4 years ago

Quite normal. If it's any consolation, it's only for the first year or two. Their immune systems improve quickly.

Balgair• 4 years ago

One thing that people fail to mention about being a parent is that you still have to be a parent even when you're sick as a dog. Baby still has to get changed and the toddlers still have to get fed even if you can barely lift your head. I swear, being a parent is like having super powers. Pre-kiddos me could never have done these feats under these conditions.

jansan• 4 years ago

Here in Germany they have an influenza monitor, that fortunately was unaffected by all the political COVID theatre. They constantly analyze random samples sent in from participating clinics to detect the prevalence of different types of virii in the population. This gives quite good data (and probably for that reason was not used during Covid).

Current data shows that influenza is back, but not yet with a vengeance. Predominant type is H3N2 and mainly children 0-4 are affected. SARS-CoV-2 only has a small share.

https://influenza.rki.de/Diagrams.aspx?agiRegion=0

uptownfunk• 4 years ago

Preventative care can be the most effective (yes according to science based on research on all cause mortality)

Cold showers, don’t drink too much, get enough sleep, don’t stress too much, do some exercise to get the blood pumping - good recipe for health

legitster2• 4 years ago

While I don't doubt for a second that there was pent up exposures with schools being closed, I also have to imagine parents are being much more responsive to symptoms. Maybe the cases on the margin that would never have resulted in hospitalizations in years previously are ending up there, if for no other reason than a lot of parents simply have no experience with their kids being sick.

Sn0wCoder3• 4 years ago

Just curious what peoples thoughts are on whole house ionizer’s that attach to the furnace. Just got an inspection and mentioned we recently had our ducts cleaned as our youngest has mild Asthma and I have mild allergies. The duct cleaning has kept our filter super clean over the last 6 months but I asked what else I could do. Long story short got a ionizer on sale but after seeing it installed and it’s relatively small size feeling like it might be kinda scammy. It’s a plasma air air purifier and I looked them up and have good reviews, but without actually testing the air before and after not sure how to prove it does anything. Sorry I know it’s a tad off topic but kinda related since one of the claims is ‘ Plasma Air significantly reduces airborne pollutants commonly found in homes such as bacteria and viruses, mold spores, odors, chemicals from paint, varnish and cleaning agents, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and even cancer-causing formaldehyde emitted from furniture’. Cheers and thanks for any feedback.

georgeg23• 4 years ago

It also produces ozone which is not great to be breathing. UV-C is more effective than plasma but still produces some nontrivial ozone if it's bright enough to be disinfecting air.

Sn0wCoder3• 4 years ago

Thank you did not do much research just took the techs word as he told me about all the courses he took and how great they are.

danans2• 4 years ago

An Investigation of Ozone Emissions From Consumer Products: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/ozone-emissions...

Ozone Generators that are Sold as Air Cleaners : https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/ozone-generators-...

Ideally, don't use ozone-generating or other gimmicky devices. Ventilate the space instead. Usually, unless there is a high pollution event or it is peak allergy season, the air outside is lower in contaminants than indoor air.

Vacuum frequently using a machine with a HEPA filter and run your home's air circulation system with a MERV13 filter, or get/make an air filter. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw7fUMhNov8)

If you feel you must use an ozone generating device, don't use it if the spaces are occupied and ventilate them thoroughly before occupying them again.

Definitely don't use them along with other cleaning/deodorizing chemicals, as the result of mixing those with ozone is complex and poorly understood.

Sn0wCoder3• 4 years ago

Thank you for the info. Man now I second guessing that impulse buy. Going to read up and maybe even have them remove it. Tech was a good salesman and made me feel like I was helping my family, while I might have done the exact opposite. Glad I asked, and glad you took the time to inform me.

timcederman3• 4 years ago

Get a MERV16 filter for your furnace and you'll have amazingly clean air. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mean-PM-25-removal-effic...

Sunspark• 4 years ago

The higher the # the more restricted the air flow is, which is harder for the fan to work with. This may be an issue if the fan is not very good.

It is not true though that the air will become amazingly clear based on the presence of the filter. I used a 11 for a long time and it certainly didn't stop everything from getting covered in dust anyway. My place is not airtight.

jankyxenon• 4 years ago

One caveat on this - most residential systems don't have fans that are designed to go up to MERV16.

High MERV ratings put more load on the blower equipment.

Saris• 4 years ago

Ozone is not good for you or a lot of materials in your house, get a good filter for the intake instead.

A high MERV filter will remove bacteria/viruses as well as a bunch of other stuff.

elil17• 4 years ago

As others have pointed out the issues with ozone generators, I'll just throw ERVs as a ventilation option into the mix. An ERV with a filter can cycle out not just particles, bacteria, and viruses, but also dangerous gases.

photochemsyn• 4 years ago

I'd like to see more data on this. Just looking at CDC reports, it seems that influenza from May 2022 to Oct 2022 is just tracking the normal winter high, summer low pattern:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/WeeklyArchives2022-2023/WHONP...

Going back to the 2021 year, that's where the pattern returns to normal, i.e. early 2021 had very few positive influenza tests, but then it starts climbing again in late 2021 (Nov 2021 report):

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/111914

Interestingly, rates of co-infection (COVID + flu) seem to be all over the place, this study found a ~50% coinfection rate in 2021-2022 (others are much lower, maybe people with Covid were not also being tested for flu?

https://medicine.missouri.edu/news/study-finds-high-prevalen...

ohiovr2• 4 years ago

For some people they are. My neighbor has been sick at least 6 times this year and I've not avoided contact with her. And I am fine.

christkv• 4 years ago

Two viral illnesses in one month none of them covid (at least according to the tests). The joy of having kids in school.

acjohnson55• 4 years ago

I have some issues with this logic. My oldest daughter spent essentially her whole first 2.5 years in a pretty closed social circle, because she wasn't in day care. When she started preschool at age 4, by this logic, shouldn't she have been susceptible to these severe infections?

I don't think her situation is all that uncommon. Not every kid went straight to daycare prepandemic. Is there any evidence that children with relatively closed social groups get these severe symptoms when they do get exposed?

I don't have a great answer for what is going on, if not this "immunity debt" thing. It just seems a bit flimsy to me.

For what it's worth, I've had ER trips for 2 of my toddlers in the past month with rhinovirus/enterovirus, the other pathogen besides RSV that's slamming toddlers currently. They both made pretty quick recoveries with prednisone for one of them and an albuterol nebulizer for the other.

vondur• 4 years ago

Yes, my friend's daughter who just now in the first grade has been sick all school year. She was not put into daycare pre-covid and did online kindergarten after that. Her latest infection has been bacterial based which has another twist. Apparently so many kids are getting bacterial infections, that Amoxicillin is now in short supply. The doctors had to prescribe her a cephalosporin as an alternative.

0xbadcafebee• 4 years ago

I still wear masks indoors (N95). Haven't gotten sick in 3 years. (I also try to exercise, get vitamin D, balanced diet, I'm 38, yadda yadda, so it's not just the mask obvs, but I used to get sick every year) I've also decided to work remote for the rest of my life, which helps a lot I think.

maxekman• 4 years ago

I’m hunting tech debt at work, meanwhile there is immunity debt out there!

mrguyorama• 4 years ago

People keep blaming reasonable medical practices instead of, you know, several years of global, immense stress? That has a definite effect on immune health. We KNOW that huge numbers of people are needing mental health treatment, so much so that it has basically overwhelmed the mental health sector, but we just ignore that when discussing why people are getting sick right now with relatively low interactivity things?

guilhas2• 4 years ago

Since November 2019 I feel like the flu is taking longer to pass, has been more annoying. And I more easily get sore throat bacterial infection, which I never had before

guilhas2• 4 years ago

Also a strange cough that was not covid, since there were no other symptoms like fatigue and PCR was negative, was more annoying and lasted longer. Almost couldn't sleep. And now I keep a permanent bag of cough sugar drops at work

Flu and colds are back with a vengeance

Related Stories