Nest - The Learning Thermostat

http://www.nest.com/

by erohead • 15 years ago

430 200 15 years ago

nest.com

bprater• 15 years ago

Yes, please, more of these kinds of innovative products!

Edit: Ah, created by an ex-Apple guy behind iPod and iPhone. No wonder it looks so damn slick.

TC link: http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/ipod-godfather-tony-fadell-...

haasted• 15 years ago

HN link: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3152924

mhb• 15 years ago

Ah, created by an ex-Apple guy behind iPod and iPhone. No wonder it looks so damn slick.

And costs $249.

ShabbyDoo4• 15 years ago

Worth it if it can save you a few dollars/month and make you more comfortable in the process.

wanderful• 15 years ago

Consumers have shown that they are willing to pay a premium for a well designed user experience. Problem is, Apple doesn't have much competition.

jrockway4• 15 years ago

Dear people trying to sell me stuff:

Please put something on your website that I can read. I do not want to watch a video, and that's all you have, so now I will never learn about your product.

div2• 15 years ago

This page should give you the gist: http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/ just scroll down.

maaku• 15 years ago

That should have been the landing page...

Tichy3• 15 years ago

No kidding. I wonder if all those video only sites are the result of A/B tests? Then we are doomed...

wickedchicken• 15 years ago

This also applies to programming screencasts and slides which are becoming more and more prevalent. I guess it works for some people but when I look at code I like to skim and use ctrl-F...

nodata3• 15 years ago

and if you must have a video, then please at least provide subtitles that are written in non-computer translated English.

electrichead• 15 years ago

In this case it might be justified. The guy is trying to convince you to buy their design, really. How would they entice you into buying a thermostat with words? It would be really difficult.

joelthelion• 15 years ago

Also, when I do watch the video, at least give me a hint of how your product works and what it does. Don't bullshit me with things like "XXX never stops learning" or "XXX saves energy" during the whole video.

rapind2• 15 years ago

Dear people trying to sell me stuff:

Please don't put a ream of text on your landing page that I have to read in order to learn about your product. I'm a visual person, and the web has not been a text-only medium for quite some time now. Something like a video, relevant pictures, and big bold text will do just fine thanks.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. This is actually what I prefer, and I think they did a good job.

fluidcruft• 15 years ago

I think your zeal for snark has lead you astray.

I understand what you're saying--nobody wants to land on a stuffy wall of text. But in this case, there's nothing to find but the window dressing. I'm fine clicking on a "find out more" link that takes me to more detail. But that's missing here entirely.

funkah• 15 years ago

Yeah. I can't skim a video.

IanMikutel• 15 years ago

Actually you can, just scrobble through it quickly. I just did, worked great.

CodeMage• 15 years ago

I also hate sites where the only information is offered through a video and I would like to have readable information as close to the landing page as possible, preferably on it.

It turns out that Nest doesn't have it smack dab on the landing page, but you just need to make the logical (to me) choice of clicking on the "Meet the Nest Learning Thermostat" link and the information is there. Scroll down at your leisure and skim through the text and the illustrations. It's not even one of those annoying PowerPoint-like presentations; you just need to scroll down.

I liked it, a lot.

jrockway4• 15 years ago

Yeah, I read it and want to buy one now. I also learned that I have a two stage heat pump.

eridius• 15 years ago

If you cared to look for more than 5 seconds, the "Our Thermostat" link at the top of the page takes you to a nice page all about the Nest with just text/images.

http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/index.html

gcv2• 15 years ago

In this particular case, at least, the video is short, informative, and well-made — a great way to introduce the product.

div2• 15 years ago

Curious about how many other cool projects / companies can come out of that line of thought:

"Here's a plain everyday thing that everyone wants to ignore, let's make it a cherished item"

palish2• 15 years ago

The Learning Toilet.

Maakuth4• 15 years ago

Takes shit from no one?

Elepsis• 15 years ago

You laugh, but TOTO is a hugely successful corporation that's spent millions on toilet R&D. If this bathroom doesn't fall into "object of day to day use made into a cherished item" I don't know what does: http://www.totousa.com/Neorest/NeorestSuite.aspx

SandB0x2• 15 years ago

Ever seen a Japanese toilet?

rythie2• 15 years ago

A toilet that tells you if are dehydrated and need to drink more, that'd be neat. Or perhaps automatically checks if your kids are doing drugs (maybe that's too far).

noja• 15 years ago

A normal toilet is a problem for most men: it's either loud to use, or you get some sprayback. A solution to this problem would capture the entire toilet market.

SandB0x2• 15 years ago

A learning toaster that can find the sweet spot between warm bread and coal. Works if I've put in frozen bread or bread from fridge or bread from the bread bin.

palish2• 15 years ago

Somebody please make this! How hard could it be? No, forget about that -- I'd throw money at you. Heck, I'd work for you while throwing money at you while coding for you.

I love toast.

arethuza2• 15 years ago

A toaster that includes some kind of simple camera to monitor how dark the toast is getting would be great - I'd buy one.

nodata3• 15 years ago

Give me a tap that will expand that sweet spot between way too hot and way too cold.

minikomi• 15 years ago

Or one with an adjustable middle section.. Gears?

HeyLaughingBoy4• 15 years ago

They've been out for a while. Expensive, and I don't remember the name, but they are there. My shower has "scald control" so if someone flushes a toilet nearby the temperature doesn't change, but I don't think that's what you are after?

Search the usual suspects" Moen, Delta, Kohler, etc.

Here's one: http://bathroom-kitchen-faucets.com/hot-cold-automatic-senso...

nhebb• 15 years ago

A toilet with a built-in urinalysis system.

jonnathanson• 15 years ago

Dyson seems to be doing quite well at that game in the household appliances business.

seanos3• 15 years ago

Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Maakuth4• 15 years ago

Well, probably most of us don't see their utility bills as a problem per se but wouldn't mind 50% reduction. And Nest claims to deliver that. Certainly that claim is to be taken with a grain of salt but I don't think that it's a bad idea.

EDIT: No they don't actually claim that, my bad.

batterseapower• 15 years ago

Do they actually claim that? Their page claims that 50% of household energy usage is governed by the thermostat, but they are very careful to avoid any specific claims about how much Nest would reduce this usage.

seanos3• 15 years ago

Assuming the learning algorithm is perfect and always gives the desired temperature, then a saving of 50% means that your desired temperature pattern is 50% cheaper than the temperature pattern you would program with a regular thermostat. That could be true, or it could even be more expensive.

Also, it might be annoying to have a thermostat trying to second guess what temperature you want through a "learning" algorithm, rather than the deterministic temperature you have programmed or adjusted manually.

beatpanda• 15 years ago

See also: everything critics of the iPad said the week after it was launched

mbesto• 15 years ago

Disagree. Two problems:

1. High utility bills (any solution that saves you money is a solution to a problem)

2. Global warming

colomon• 15 years ago

Every time all winter my wife asks me to get out of bed to go downstairs to change the thermostat that's awkward to use and hard to see in the available light, you can bet I'm going to be thinking about how I could have a Nest and just adjust it from bed using my phone. Combine that with plausible claims of it saving us $100+ a year in energy bills, and this is a very appealing product, IMO.

watty• 15 years ago

I think the "problem" he's referring to is the learning aspect. Web based thermostats and home automation have been around for over 10 years.

jayfuerstenberg• 15 years ago

I watched the video and was impressed by how well designed it is. If it operates as demoed it could save a great deal of electricity.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if, like the iPod, it didn't come with a manual because it's so easy to use.

eps• 15 years ago

Thermostat managed through a hosted web service? I'm sorry but this is idiotic. Looks neat though.

earthboundkid• 15 years ago

Hard to say. This is the sort of thing people have been talking about forever ("smart homes"), but maybe the timing is finally right.

Quick, does anyone use their iPad to "store recipes"?

egypturnash3• 15 years ago

Fuck yeah. It's called "googling for a recipe with it". I do this regularly.

jrnkntl2• 15 years ago

Why, why US only? Please tell me, it can't be because everything on this device is hard-coded for Fahrenheit.

madflo• 15 years ago

I would not worry too much about that. I think that they will be able to handle the Fahrenheit/Celsius conversion.

jrnkntl2• 15 years ago

:) I wasn't serious about that bit, just wondering why.

tomelders2• 15 years ago

It could have something to do with power supply. Different countries have different mains voltages. I think it's a lot higher here in the Britain than in the US, which could fry a device like this perhaps.

Or perhaps not. I'm just speculating.

joezydeco3• 15 years ago

The control wiring for thermostats in the US is almost a common standard (RH/RC/W/Y/G) with 24 VDC. What is it in the UK?

zhyder• 15 years ago

Looks nifty. Some feature requests:

1. Should get feedback for actual energy consumption from the meter.

2. Should allow installation of extra sensors that are wirelessly connected to the main unit, in case the main unit is far from the couch/bed.

ojilles• 15 years ago

For 2. this is where the iphone/mobile/tablet apps come in I guess.

I was thinking it would be great to have an extra sensor or two that would help detecting the auto away.

Tichy3• 15 years ago

Could this have an API? Thinking about it, some neat things could be done. For example, might it be possible to infer from electricity use if somebody is home or not? Also all sorts of fancy remote control options could emerge (Twitter is a must :-)

thomasjoulin• 15 years ago

Their iPhone app should have geofencing (if it doesn't yet)

Tichy3• 15 years ago

If every member of the household has an iPhone, that is.

bteitelb• 15 years ago

Pure genius! Just one thing, anyone upgrading from an old mercury switch thermostat will be left with a mercury waste disposal problem. Properly disposing of these can be a real hassle and some not-so-environmentally responsible customers are likely to just chuck them in the trash. Nest could raise the bar of their environmental responsibility another notch by including a postage-paid mailer and some bubble wrap to return your old thermostat to them for proper disposal.

dolbz• 15 years ago

I hope there's an override for auto-away. Imagine going away over Christmas and your pipes freeze because there has been no heating at all... Not a problem in California where this has been developed but a realistic problem in much of the world.

stereo• 15 years ago

I suppose it simply keeps the temperature above freezing even when you're away, like most thermostats

_delirium2• 15 years ago

That's not sufficient for many home designs, though; you may need to keep the interior temperature into the 40s or 50s to keep the pipes in the wall above freezing, depending on the outside temperature and your house design. One reason the default "away" temperature for many thermostats is actually pretty high, like 55 or 60.

harshaw• 15 years ago

Yeah, there are some counter-intuitive things you need to think about with baseboard heat and very cold temperatures in New England. Normally it is just fine and dandy to let your fancy thermostat drop the temps to the high 50s at night except when it is 10 degrees outside - in that case you want to turn up the temperature so you don't freeze your pipes :) Sadly I speak from experience.

Corrado• 15 years ago

The manufacturer mentions that it has a link to the web and can consult weather forecasts. This should allow it to kick the heat on if the forecast calls for freezing weather and your not home.

nitrogen4• 15 years ago

The first section of their information page (click "Meet the Nest..." in the middle of the landing page) suggests that an absolute min/max temperature range is programmed when the thermostat is first installed.

delinka• 15 years ago

As long as 'comfort' includes monitoring humidity and adjusting temperature accordingly, I'm in. Did anyone notice if Nest does this?

adolph2• 15 years ago

Yep, at a minimum it claims to have a humidity meter.

asmithmd13• 15 years ago

Compare this to the WiFi thermostat that I previously thought was cool:

http://www.radiothermostat.com/filtrete/

In addition to being a touch screen it has hard buttons labeled: PROG, MENU, MODE, FAN, and SAVE ENERGY

It is a total disaster. When I went away for vacation this summer I wanted to turn off the daily program and hold at a max of 85. Instead I put it into winter hold mode and it maintained a chilly 62 for the entire week I was away. The WiFi link failed the first day I was away for some reason and the iPhone app happily reported the last temperature it had received as current so I had no hint there was any trouble.

WalterBright2• 15 years ago

Any ui with a "mode" button is inevitably a disaster.

jarek3• 15 years ago

Meet my alarm clock, 12 years and going strong.

Perhaps I should upgrade to something with a touchscreen and wifi.

simcop2387• 15 years ago

I've had that particular problem with an old thermostat before. No wifi or anything, but when the batteries would run out, it would get stuck into AC mode, no matter the previous settings. Getting back from vacation was like a meat locker. It seems weird that the "failure" mode of these things seems to be make the plants think it's winter.

brk4• 15 years ago

This is interesting. I've been involved in home automation for about 15 years now, and HVAC controls are one of the top things to control in most systens.

Occupancy sensing is also extremely difficult to do passively in any kind of reliable scenario, especially when your occupancy sensor is limited to a single location in the house.

I've frequently seen two broad categories around regulating HVAC systems: 1) People keep a fairly regular schedule, and a standard 7-day programmable thermostat works sufficiently.

2) People keep a very non-regular schedule, and a standard programmable thermostat doesn't work, nor is there any inferable pattern to their home/away schedule.

In case #2, it is usually more beneficial to get home/away status from something with a more direct output eg: a burglar alarm system, vehicle presence detectors in the garage (photobeams), status of lights, etc.

I'll be very curious to see what the real-world reactions are to the Nest thermostat. If they can come up with some truly creative solutions it could be a really cool device.

_delirium2• 15 years ago

From what's on the website it looks like they're trying to learn largely from user feedback of the "I wanted it cooler/hotter" variety. Agree that this will be a problem in case #2, without good occupancy sensing, because the prediction problem is inherently impossible to do well with only time-of-day-and-week if there isn't much regularity.

I would guess the real target audience is people who fall into #1 but never get around to programming their thermostat, and maybe don't even have an accurate self-assessment of their home/away or sleep/wake patterns. In particularly warm or cold climates this might also include people who make wrong guesses about latency, e.g. how early before they return the heater needs to kick on for it to be comfortable by the time they get home. I could see it being useful in that case: there's a regular enough pattern to infer a reliable heating/cooling schedule, but the person doesn't want to, or isn't able to manually program that pattern.

icefox2• 15 years ago

On the website "Activity sensors Nest's activity sensors have a 150° wide-angle view so Nest knows when to set itself to Auto-Away."

At $249 though it needs to make some sort of sell that I can recoup more than those costs.

iramiller2• 15 years ago

Why not setup a system that detects the presence of your Bluetooth phone? Perhaps even look for your phone on the wireless network if a sensitive detector is not sufficient?

It would not be a stretch at that point to have a simple website served from the device that let you see the history and choose some basic night/day setback points.

It takes some time to raise/lower the temperature of the house depending on the outside temperature so learning the rate at which the house warms/cools is required to reach the desired set point at the requested time. Including the local weather forecast as a sensor and being able to see a graph of temps and system demand cycles would be really nice.

ShabbyDoo4• 15 years ago

I would be willing to carry something-er-other in my wallet which would alert my home automation system (which I don't have) to my presence/location in my home. I usually leave my wallet in our bedroom when sleeping, so it would still be accurate at night. My wife might be willing to wear a small ring or something like that, but it would be a harder sell.

brk4• 15 years ago

I had something a while back... A little script thingy I found online that would lock/unlock my laptop (MBP) based on if it was paired via BT to my phone. The problem with BT occupancy sensing is that the range is kind of limited, so you need several sensors, and the pairing dance that goes with that, it's kind of a hassle.

tomkarlo3• 15 years ago

Why not simply have it get the data from an online API connected to something like Google Latitude or Apple's Find My Friend system? Then you could even have it make decisions when the users are much farther away, e.g. "he's 100 miles away, just keep the house above freezing" or "he's come back within 10 miles, return the house to comfortable levels."

I know some folks who have a heater in their winter cabin they can activate remotely (via text, I think) to turn on before they arrive for the weekend. An automated version of that would be even better.

MichaelApproved• 15 years ago

Bluetooth drains the battery too quicky. An app running in the background with gps pings would be better.

tomlin• 15 years ago

It would be great if this also supported Z-Wave, Insteon or ZigBee. Z-Wave would probably be more advisable since ADT and a few others are jumping on the Z-Wave protocol.

jordibunster• 15 years ago

It supports Zigbee ("Show detailed Specs" link at the bottom of http://www.nest.com/inside-and-out/index.html)

SigmundA• 15 years ago

That's why I like my OmniStat with my OmniPro security/automation system, it can change temp based on security system state (away, night, etc.) And if you still wanted occupancy based learning, it can be done with your security interior motions and Omni programming.

Also the Haiku iPhone app for my Omni just added changing flags in the OmniPro based on iPhone location triggers, this would allow proximity tstat changes if you really wanted that.

http://homeauto.com/Products/Omnistat/Omnistat2Products.asp

brk4• 15 years ago

I have an OmniProII system, but have scaled back what I am using it for. In many cases though it makes a very nice security, HVAC, automation and audio platform.

teyc• 15 years ago

#2 today could be solved with smartphones that relay their location?

ZigBee wireless sensors can be built rather cheaply if the intelligent components are centralized on the primary controller.

mentat• 15 years ago

They have an iPhone app. If that can pull GPS coordinates then they can know where at least one person is.

deepGem• 15 years ago

This is way too cool. Wonder if the device can actually detect the number of people in the room and adjust the temperature for that room accordingly. Not sure how this will work in age old central heating systems which contain one thermostat for a 10,000 sq ft building.

coob• 15 years ago

I don't care for the 'learning' aspect, although I'm sure it's great.

My boiler has 19 buttons and 3 dials, I just don't have the time to understand it. This I understand.

csomar• 15 years ago

Some readers complained about the content of the website, I think they are missing the point.

Most people aren't HN minded, they are not really into how Nest learn about your Energy needs. They just want simple and short content that explain in basic words. Nice looking design will give them confidence that this thing works really well.

The Website and the product are very well designed, and this is something that is not quite common in such products. It's really well designed.

This page (http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/index.html) explain in simple and basic sentences how the device will work out for you. Pretty simple, yet convincing.

Yes, it's missing the hacker part. But I doubt that people are interested in that. I actually wish that more businesses invest in such designs.

joezydeco3• 15 years ago

I'm impressed that Nest fixes and repaints the wall when you remove your old, large rectangular thermostat.

pivo• 15 years ago

I wondered about that too, but I see that it does come with a bracket that covers the wall if you need it.

joezydeco3• 15 years ago

That plate looks way too small and square to cover up the holes left by most rectangular thermostats. Look at 0:12 in the intro video, you can see the mounting holes for the "old" device. Interesting that the holes are painted white and have no screws in them.

brador3• 15 years ago

I'm guessing this will have premium pricing, in which case, are the people who care about shaving a few $100 off their energy bill going to have the forsight, disposable income and knowledge of installation to make the purchase?

Cool looking product, but too many barriers to purchase for my liking.

iqster2• 15 years ago

Preorder price is 250. About 100 bucks more for professional installation. 25 extra for each additional terminal. It doesn't seem too bad ... I was expecting 500 after watching the video.

My biggest concern is installation. I live in a rental, so I will have to uninstall the Nest with me when I leave. They have a nifty video plus compatibility checking app. Will try it when I get home tonight.

brador3• 15 years ago

I did not see the price. Looking at it now, I'd say it seems nice in relation to the iPhone price point, but remember what this is. It's just a nicer looking thermostat.

The learning functionality is next to useless for most as they're in and out during the day/evening, so it needs constant changing just like a regular thermostat regardless. Effectively, the patterns can't be learnt. My thermostat is beside my front door. I enter my home, I set it, then again before bed and in the morning again. There's not much to it and I wouldn't cede control for $250+$100. $50, yeah. Maybe even $100 for a cool looking, easy to install device. But not $250.

adolph2• 15 years ago

I can't tell from the site if they have done away with the whole cool/heat switch but it seems like they have, which is awesome.

brk4• 15 years ago

It is, if they can truly intelligently control the modes.

In much of the US, we are in that time of year where it can be cold in the morning and hot in the afternoon. A common thermostat on full auto mode will be running the heat in the morning and the A/C in the afternoon. Most people opt to set their thermostat for one mode or the other, usually forgoing the A/C in the afternoon, knowing that it will soon cool back down naturally.

Full HVAC control is one of those things that is really hard to get right with just a mostly passive device like this.

brucehart• 15 years ago

I noticed that the Nest asks you for your zip code. Maybe it uses the Wi-Fi connection to pull weather information so it can make adjustments like this?

mrspandex2• 15 years ago

There's a section in there that talks about switching it from heat to cool when the seasons change. I don't know if that's more of a suggestion to this device or not, but something tells me it's that same damn heat/cool switch.

cantlin• 15 years ago

I wonder if they'll provide an API. Are any companies in this space taking a platform-oriented approach to their domestic gizmos? Someone needs to put my home on the command line.

pjin• 15 years ago

  27. Hardware/software hybrids. Most hackers find hardware
  projects alarming. You have to deal with messy, expensive
  physical stuff. ...
  There's a lot of low-hanging fruit in hardware; you can
  often do dramatically new things by making comparatively
  small tweaks to existing stuff.

While Nest doesn't fall in the young startup category, Next is still a great example of what you can do with hardware and software, where "the software plays a very visible role." The design speaks for itself, but the magic is in the software---meaning whatever tricks they pulled from AI, machine learning, control theory or other fields.

Of course, "small tweaks" might not be the best way to describe it from the hackers POV, but it makes sense if you're using this device.

spot• 15 years ago

here's their white-paper PDF: http://assets-www.nest.com/white_papers/efficiency-simulatio...

"The auto-away feature is based on algorithms that interpret occupancy sensor data and provide a confidence determination of whether or not the occupants are away from the home. When the confidence level is high that occupants are away, the autoEaway feature makes a decision to override the existing schedule to save additional energy"

it has sensors for movement, temperature, humidity, and light.

mrspandex2• 15 years ago

How much does this thing cost? The store seems to be down.

phuff• 15 years ago

It looks like it's $249 per unit.

cjoh• 15 years ago

Here's what I don't get -- why have the display to begin with? Why can't the whole thing be programmable via API/Web/Mobile App/Watch/Whatever.

Ideally that's what I'd like -- some kind of intelligent device that lives inside of my house that connects to my boiler and AC unit, as well as other major appliances if possible and provides an open API for people to build on top of, and can connect to my router.

If someone wants to make a thermostat that looks like Nest, then, it could be something that you just stick to the wall but requires no direct wiring. But it also means that I never need to buy a new thermostat: if I get tired of the Nest, I can switch it like I can any other app. Or just keep it controlled from my phone or tablet or the web.

ShabbyDoo4• 15 years ago

"why have the display to begin with?"

My guess is that many consumers have replaced thermostats before and have found the process fairly painless. Or, maybe they understand the idea of replacing one dingus on the wall for another. The idea of cutting wires in one's basement is much scarier. Your suggestion is quite rational but probably hurts sales.

savrajsingh2• 15 years ago

Wattvision is making the 'no display' bet, instead opting for a smartphone webapp, or our full website. Check us out at www.wattvision.com. We're just whole-house energy monitoring, right now.

kruhft• 15 years ago

Wasn't one of John McCarthy's original AI papers about an intelligent thermostat?

rgovostes• 15 years ago

I thought of this too when I heard about it:

> In ten or twenty years Minneapolis-Honeywell, which makes many thermostats today, may try to sell you a really fancy home temperature control system. It will know the preferences of temperature and humidity of each member of the family and can detect who is in the room. When several are in the room it makes what it considers a compromise adjustment taking account who has most recently had to suffer having the room climate different from what he prefers. Perhaps Honeywell discovers that these compromises should be modified according to a social rank formula devised by its psychologists and determined by patterns of speech loudness. The brochure describing how the thing works is rather lengthy and the real dope is in a rather technical appendix in small print.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/little/little.html (1983)

ShabbyDoo4• 15 years ago

Darn. I have a dual-fuel system (heat pump for spring/fall with natural gas for winter), so I think I'm out-of-luck for now. My current thermostat has an exterior temperature sensor and switches between modes when the outside temp drops below a certain level. Heat pumps are energy efficient on mildly cold days but don't work very well in the dead of winter. FYI, I live in Ohio.

quonn• 15 years ago

If one wants to build stuff like that -- I wonder - how do you do the low-tech stuff (the hardware that is not electronics but the plastics/aluminium shell, glass, etc.)? What skills/tools are required to actually create that? How do you get started if you can't afford mass-production at the beginning?

HeyLaughingBoy4• 15 years ago

Simple: you design your electronics to fit existing cases that can be purchased off the shelf. Here's one of my favorite vendors: http://www.polycase.com

There are many, many vendors of plastic and metal electronics enclosures. Many of them will customize them for you with printing, cutouts for displays, etc. I know Polycase will do so very cheaply.

HeyLaughingBoy4• 15 years ago

Replying to my own post because I can't edit it.

If you have a specific application in mind, you can contact me if you like. I have used a bunch of enclosure types and I might be able to make a suggestion.

icefox2• 15 years ago

Nitpicking: Does it annoy anyone else that the website always has a horizontal scrollbar? Also not sure what about the layout confused me, but I didn't realize that I could scroll down to find out information.

davidjhall• 15 years ago

If this thermostat has activity sensors, how can it tell the difference between a pet and a person? Not that I advocate freezing pets while I'm not home, but they don't need a toasty 72.

qjz• 15 years ago

I also wonder if it can tell the difference between a teenager and the person who actually pays the energy bill.

brudgers• 15 years ago

Suffers from HGTV syndrome at $249.

It isn't going to change the world or revolutionize home automation it's just going to be another "subzero" or "commercial range" as seen on Househunters: Tahoe.

The issue with programmable thermostats is that they are not about temperature but comfort, and comfort is affected by what you have been doing and what you are wearing than a few degrees of setting on the thermostat.

It's the exceptions that make programmable thermostats problematic - the day you get home early from work and the house is 82 F and high humidity in July, or when you are home with the flu and the heat is off...neither is worth $10 a month of possible savings.

We have a non-programmable digital thermostat. It simply has a button with a "$" which bumps the temperature a few degrees toward energy savings based on a user setting.

[http://trane.com/Residential/Products/Thermostats/Non-Progra...]

The bulk of our energy savings since the install probably comes from the fact that the temperature is set digitally rather than with an analog resister - so we tend to adjust the temperature more conservatively and less often.

Splines• 15 years ago

Yeah, $249 is way too much. I'd be pressed to spend more than $30 on a thermostat when the one I have works good enough. Programming my current one is like pulling teeth, but I only do it once a year or so (if that).

I keep it low and don't have A/C. If I'm hot I'll change into shorts, and if I'm cold I'll put on a sweater.

mark13• 15 years ago

They should consider selling accessory units that plug into the wall and monitor the temperature of a specific spot in the house, syncing with the master control via wifi (instead of only reading temperature/motion in the one place the thermostat is installed).

I'm thinking of a corner in our house that is always cold -- if it detects I'm there, crank up the heat so it is comfortable in that location. When I leave, do the same for the next spot, or revert back to the "master control" unit. I'm not sure how much money this would save, but it would certainly be a valuable feature I'd pay for, and it would knock the socks off what any normal thermostat could do.

algoshift5• 15 years ago

Ridiculous.

Depending on where you live you can save more money by simply using a good size fan blowing cold air into the house at night during the summer. We did just that this summer and did not have to use the air conditioner at all, even during days where daytime temperatures reached well over 100 degrees. On some nights we could get the house down to 65 degrees overnight.

The $250 fan paid for itself in less than a month! Total cost of running it 6 to 8 hours per day was less than $10 for the month.

This was an experiment to determine whether or not a whole house fan would be a worthwhile investment for next year. Obviously, it is.

Next on the list is converting the A/C and heating system to what's known as a "zone" system. Why heat or cool several thousand square feet of a home when you only need one or a few rooms to stay warm or cold?

Next would be what I would call "intelligent flow" management. This is of particular value if you live in a two story home. How is a single thermostat on a wall in the family room downstairs going to make decisions about what is best for heating or cooling the upstairs bedroom? Well, it can't.

What you can do is have sensors in every single room as well as a way to pump air to and from various locations. Cold air will accumulate downstairs. Hot air upstairs. When the downstairs is comfortable in the winter the upstairs is boiling hot. By using this "intelligent flow" concept the system would simply look for suitable sources of what it needs, say, hot air, and choose to use the least costly source before moving on to a more expensive solution.

If the upstairs has three really hot rooms and only one room is occupied, you can pump that hot air back downstairs rather than engaging the furnace. If the sun is keeping the solar collectors nice and hot, use that instead of burning fuel.

Following that is some combination of geothermal and solar assist. A simple $20 microprocessor board with some relays and a few sensors can easily manage a set of valves to select a heat source or sink that is more energy efficient than using a compressor or a furnace.

Granted, some of the above would cost far more than a $250 gadget to implement. However, it should be obvious that they would more than pay for themselves in relatively short order, particularly the first couple of options.

The greater point, I think, is that home energy efficiency is a much larger problem that cannot be addressed in an meaningful manner with a wifi-enabled gadget on a wall, no matter how cool it might look.

The good news is that, if we take a serious look at how we build our homes and change the approach the savings can be absolutely monumental.

nitrogen4• 15 years ago

All of these things can be automated. Since the Nest is connected via Wifi and Zigbee, a future firmware upgrade (or an external controller) could add support for a Zigbee-connected fan controller. If the outside temperature is in the direction of the target temperature, turn on the fan.

It sounds like you're in a desert-like area with wide temperature swings. The learning system when integrated with your zone system could figure out how cold you're willing to get at night to store cold air for the day, or even use unoccupied rooms to store very cold air to be released into the house throughout the day.

I agree that a thermostat alone isn't enough to save significant amounts of energy, but this does have the potential to get get some smart technology into more homes, where it can be expanded later to include everything you describe.

algoshift5• 15 years ago

The "Nest" is simply the wrong approach. By itself it is nearly worthless (my not-so-humble opinion) for anyone but the most technologically incompetent thermostat users out there. And even then, you'd have to wonder. Where is the data on how many people can't or don't program their thermostats?

Now, some people might buy it just because it looks cool on the wall, and that's OK.

A real thermal management system for the home does not start with a high-design thermostat on the wall. You need multiple types of sensors in every room and multiple outdoor points.

You need to change the way airflow can be channeled around a home.

You might even need to change the paradigm and heat/cool objects that can provide thermal inertia (like the floor or walls) rather than just air.

You need to be able to selectively inject other heat sources or sinks into the system.

You need solar thermal panels and geothermal heat exchange system in the ground.

As far as control, a very simple embedded PC board running embedded Linux would be the "lazy" way to build it. It would actually be overkill, but there's an argument to be made for the COGS aspect of it.

Any number of relatively low cost embedded boards running very simple embedded software could monitor the sensor array, make decisions and activate valves, fans, etc. as needed.

I guess what I am saying is that you really can't fix the problem without engaging in a fundamental pivot from what we've been doing to thermally manage homes for the last, say, 100 years.

Having said that, it is a lot easier to sell a cool looking $250 gadget than asking someone to spend $5,000 to modify their home. Even though the gadget is very likely to not do much and the more extensive home modification is almost guaranteed to save the home owner thousands of dollars per year.

Talk about an opportunity for government stimulus!

sbov• 15 years ago

Ah, the whole house fan. I grew up in an area with 90-100 degree days/50 degree nights without AC, and my parents eventually got a whole house fan.

We had it installed in the ceiling in our hallway in a 4 bedroom house. I didn't care for it for a couple reasons:

It was dusty around where we lived. This means it was really good at sucking said dust into the house. Made everything get dirty faster.

Even when it was on at night, it didn't really seem to cool off the house much. Sure, if you sat in the wind path of your open windows, it was 50 degrees. If you weren't, it was still pretty warm. I'm sure it was really good at cooling our attic off though.

Part of me wonders if the fan was too large for the house to be effective.

algoshift5• 15 years ago

Well, I am not doing an off the shelf whole house fan. Clearly some of the issues you mentioned are very real. Dust can be easily handled with filtering. My summer long experiment proved that you can cool a house and avoid using the AC unit for a whole summer. This is at least true where I live.

The next step is to come up with a plan for next year. Since a fan outside the downstairs kitchen window worked just fine, I don't have to rush to put in a commercial system. I can use all of next summer to experiment and find a better solution.

You can cool my house during the summer for about $10 per month. That's the baseline from which I'll judge all other solutions.

Anechoic• 15 years ago

> Depending on where you live you can save more money by simply using a good size fan blowing cold air into the house at night during the summer.

I have a whole-house fan (Western Massachusetts), and the "where you live" caveat is a biggie. It depends on sun exposure, air movement, humidity and local factors (like air flow through the home). We've found that running the fan at night keeps the house cool through mid-morning (on warm days with low humidity) but after that the house warms up very quickly and that's when the A/C is turned on.

I'm happy you had a good experience with a large fan but don't automatically assume that it's a proper solution for other applications.

Jayasimhan• 15 years ago

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Gandhi

thanithani• 15 years ago

For those using Chrome on a Mac to view this link, dont. The site only shows an egg and a testimonial.

Androsynth• 15 years ago

I'm more impressed by the founding team (with KCB backing) than the product. Can this be the company that finally gives us the smart home we've been promised for decades? I can't imagine they intend to limit themselves to thermostats.

jpadvo• 15 years ago

I don't think they plan to. From their website:

"At Nest, what matters to us are homes and the people inside them. We’re changing the way you think about your home and the way your home thinks."

nitrogen4• 15 years ago

I like the design of the case. I wonder if there's any way to display custom data on the screen, and how they're powering it (apart from the rechargeable battery).

I've always said that in order to get home automation into more people's homes it'll have to be "hidden" in something they already buy, like a TV or in this case a thermostat. I'm doing an automation startup[0] that focuses on building more of the behind-the-scenes technology for early adopters and eventual integration into consumer products, but that technology eventually needs to be packaged into something more consumer-friendly.

It looks like their presence sensing is actually motion sensing (the tech specs list "activity" sensors). I'd like to combine this with a more detailed presence sensor like the Kinect or Xtion Pro for more detailed control of temperature, lighting, etc.

[0] Shameless plug: http://www.nitrogenlogic.com/

there• 15 years ago

i've had an ecobee (http://ecobee.com/) thermostat for a few years and it's little more than a way to bump the heat up while i'm lying in bed. i work from my home so i can't do much with pre-programmed schedules, and i have a dog so i can't let the place get super hot or cold if i'm gone during the day.

when it first debuted, they tried to charge a monthly fee for the website (which is a key part of the product, though it can be adjusted from the display itself). my brother works for an hvac company and was having trouble selling any of them because of the monthly fee.

eventually they ditched the fee and the website is free for life, and now they have an iphone and android app to easily see and adjust settings.

i setup a hack that watched my wireless router to see if my android phone was connected, as a way to detect whether i was in the apartment or not and let the temperature slide more.

http://jcs.org/notaweblog/2011/08/30/an_ecobee_automation_ha...

dfc• 15 years ago

  "i have a dog so i can't let the place get super
  hot or cold if i'm gone during the day."

You do realize that dogs used to live outside? I have a dog and he can play for hours outside in 20 degree or 85 degree day. You are fooling yourself if you think your dog can not handle indoor environmental temp swings from 50 - 85 degrees.

Do you always use your dog to justify things?

nicksergeant• 15 years ago

Does anybody have any research to suggest that this would result in less energy usage with a boiler (baseboard water heating)?

From what I understand, frequent fluctuations in temp settings with a boiler result in more energy usage, as the boiler requires far more energy to go from 65° -> 68° as it does to maintain a steady 68°.

Thoughts?

asmithmd13• 15 years ago

Thermal transfer is proportional to the difference in temperature between the inside and outside of your house. For every bit of energy you put into maintaining the difference some energy is lost to the atmosphere. If your system is equipped with an aquastat that turns the circulator pump on only after the water reaches a certain temperature then it is possible to waste energy if the boiler runs for a short time and the water does not warm up enough to start the circulator.

wmblaettler• 15 years ago

Interesting. Their pre-order system went down from heavy traffic this afternoon, and now I see a redirect to Best Buy for pre-orders. I wonder if a quick deal was struck between Nest and Best Buy to get the pre-orders back online quickly.

ezy2• 15 years ago

Sorry, a simple digital thermometer with a digital push button up/down temperature select is more than sufficient, and cheaper.

Home automation, in general, has a similar feeling to all those weird devices you put in your microwave to make bacon. Buy a damn frying pan.

tomkarlo3• 15 years ago

Sufficient, but clearly not optimal. Temperature regulation requires time-based cycles to minimize power use, a scenario that doesn't tend to be served very well by a manually-controlled system.

For example, it generally makes sense to reduce heating use an hour or two after bedtime, until an shortly before folks wake up - is someone going to wake up to do that?

There's a lot of room here for simple innovations that will save huge amounts of energy when spread out over thousands of homes. Think how much power is saved by motion sensitive lights at offices now.

ezy2• 15 years ago

Ok, I can buy that my perspective is slightly different on these matters. I see people who set their AC to 67 and their heat to 78 -- even with time regulation this isn't going to save energy.

IMO, Blankets and socks are a fairly universal solution, and that coupled with a few button presses saves an equal amount (maybe more[1]) of energy.

I think the main selling point is going to be geek lust and how pretty it is, however. The energy savings is a loose justification for the consumer to spend money on it.

[1] I wonder how much of the energy savings will be negated by people turning up the temperature in lieu of dealing with a little inconvenience and minor discomfort because they figure the t-stat will handle it.

thebandrews• 15 years ago

From what I can tell the "learning" phase is just an extended version of programming your thermostat. I'm curious how this is any different than a traditional thermostat?

mcantor• 15 years ago

As opposed to explicitly "programming" your thermostat, you just use it and it programs itself.

jeffrese• 15 years ago

I love it, sign me up.

protomyth• 15 years ago

It would be worth the cash since my parents could actually read the temperature. I do hope Apple adds Siri integration into apps, then my Mom could just tell it what temperature she wanted.

blahedo• 15 years ago

I read the Wired article about this, and was loving it, and then: "Indeed, the Nest will not only do its learning thing in your home, but also report data to a web site."

Really? Does every goddamn thing have to report my habits out to the internet now? Wtf. (Too bad, because I love the idea. Maybe you can turn the spying off.)

savrajsingh2• 15 years ago

Here's a quick list of some other folks taking a swing at the Internet-enabled thermostat space: EnergyHub, EcoFactor, Proliphix, EcoBee, Inthrma, Suntulit, and GE's "nucleus."

Nest clearly has some cool differentiating features like "time to temp" and some interesting learning / AI technology. If it delivers on claims of 20% energy savings and they can bring the price down (that must be the plan, I'm sure) I can imagine it being broadly adopted. The challenge with thermostats is there are a few different wiring standards, so you often do need a third party to help you, which introduces a pretty big barrier to adoption. They also seem to have a strategy to lower that barrier, which is cool.

As someone who's been in the energy space for over two years now, I'm excited that Nest is bringing some much needed consumer attention our way, and I'm excited to try Nest!

ja2ke• 15 years ago

They have a "is your thermostat Nest compatible" guide and video that isnt too unfriendly. http://store.nest.com/#compatibility

seasoup2• 15 years ago

This thing paired with Siri would be awesome.

"Siri, what's the temperature at home?"

"Home is currently at 65 degrees."

"Siri, set home to 75 degrees."

"Temperature set to 75 degrees, it will take 15 minutes to reach this temperature."

jrockway4• 15 years ago

Computer, tell me a joke.

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Orange?

Orange who?

Orange you glad you bought a Power Macintosh?

Oh sorry, I was amused at how Apple is marketing early 90s technology as amazing in 2011.

seasoup2• 15 years ago

Apple does well because it presents old technology in a way that is much easier for the masses to grok and use. I don't know why this offends geeks. I'm a geek and I love it when technology is presented in an easy to use way.

I hate TV remote controls, I know how to use them but I shouldn't have to have 5 of them and universal remotes out there are pretty much crap. I have one, but the Tivo remote is so much more intuitive for that interface that we've abandoned the universal all together. That's an example of an industry ripe for someone with the design and tech chops to come in and fix and then jrockway will be talking about how amused he is that fools are so excited by this old technology. :)

gcv2• 15 years ago

This device looks great, but might not be usable in some municipalities. Some building codes mandate that a thermostat must be individually programmable for a different temperature for each of 7 days a week, and specify an energy-saving min-max range.

conductrics• 15 years ago

Not sure why the focusing on the learning alogs or the utility of the thermostat - my guess is that company really isn't about the thermostat at all. You can almost hear the founders/investors excitedly throwing around the various buzz terms with this one: 'Big Data!' 'Data Exhaust!', 'DataScience!' 'Household Traffic Patterns!' 'Web cookie for the home!!!!' etc. Looks like a cynical play at trying to become a BigData company by collecting household energy consumption and traffic patterns and who knows what else. Doesn't seem like it provides enough value to trade off being spied on in your home.

Nest - The Learning Thermostat

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