Living on 24 hours a day

https://www.justindfuller.com/2022/01/living-on-24-hours-a-day/

by iamjfu • 5 years ago

388 179 5 years ago

mshron• 5 years ago

If you liked this article, the book Lost in Thought[0] also references Bennet and goes into more depth on why spending some of your time learning for its own sake leads to a more fulfilling life.

I’d love more content like this on hn. Done right, tech jobs can afford a lot of leisure, and we don’t have generally good guidance from our culture on how to spend leisure time in a fulfilling way.

[0]https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691178714/lo...

ree-san• 5 years ago

Thank you for this recommendation! I’d love to see more content like this too. Also I’d love to see more exploration of how those of us with young kids or other caring responsibilities can get a better balance and still keep pursuing learning for its’ own sake.

PragmaticPulp• 5 years ago

In the worst case, those eight hours are frittered away. Not quite relaxing, not quite playing, not quite doing anything. We may pop Netflix on the TV and alternate between Twitter, Instagram, and the news, not quite focusing on anything. Maybe the reason feels valid. We’re too tired to really do anything but not sleepy, so it doesn’t make sense to go to bed. Besides, what else can you do on a weeknight without spending money?

I was a mentor to a college students group a while ago (pre-COVID). It was fascinating to talk to students who couldn't figure out where all of their time was going. When we'd sit down and work on time management (if necessary, and it often was), they would often struggle to even recall what they had done all week.

Almost without fail, they were all convinced that the majority of their time was going to classwork and homework. Yet when they'd do things like open up Screen Time on iOS or otherwise actually track their time during the week, they were always shocked at just how little of their time was actually spent doing some form of work. They were also often shocked at how much of their time went into their phone screens.

It was helpful for me to observe how easily free time can simply slip away when people aren't deliberate about it. In some ways it was obvious because some students could maintain jobs, intensive hobbies, sports, and other large time commitments while also handling the exact same workload. Yet even without such extra obligations, their jobless peers were perceiving as much, if not more, pressure on their time. I've since learned to be much more mindful of exactly what I'm doing with my free time. Even still, I definitely pop open HN or Twitter more than I'd like.

Also, I'd like to provide a counter-antidote to this section:

I often find that after work I’ll be “too tired” to play with my kids, but I know my wife needs help. So I’ll find ways to be around the kids without fully interacting with them. I know that certain things elicit complaints, such as being on my computer; I avoid those, but I still find other ways to distract myself from reality. When I do this, I don’t really enjoy my time with my kids, I don’t really rest. I’m just wasting time.

Everyone is different, but I find that playing with kids actually energizes me rather than further draining anything. It's a wonderful way to reset and shift perspective. Even when I'm tired after work, I can almost always get a second wind by playing with the kids. The same can't be said for collapsing on the couch.

sp332• 5 years ago

Playing with kids is fine if I've decided to dedicate time to it. It's when I sit around thinking of other things that I "should" be getting to that it's an emotional drag.

secabeen• 5 years ago

It's a delicate balance to find things that are rejuvenating to do when you get home from work, yet are interruptible enough that you can easily stop them when your partner needs help, or your kids want to engage. That balance changes slowly as your kids get older, too.

beaconstudios3• 5 years ago

Unsolicited advice, but rather than thinking about what you "should" be doing, I've found it's good to train yourself to just start doing the first thing. Going into a self referential mental state is never helpful.

aaronblohowiak• 5 years ago

Sometimes sitting and just watching them (put phone on charger early) is enough. They don’t need constant interaction to know I am interested and sometimes you see things you wouldn’t if you were directing/teaching/co-playing

mkaic2• 5 years ago

I've recently been working on breaking my bad habit of getting home from work each day, taking out my phone, and then looking up 4 hours later to realize all my free time for the night has been consumed by The Algorithm. It's been pretty rough going so far. I find it particularly soul-crushing because I do have things that I consciously want to do during that time, like write music and film short films, but those things take effort and commitment, so instead I spend night after night doomscrolling Twitter/Reddit/YouTube/HN.

I am hopeful, though, that I can break out of it. Last night, I even put together a little song. Sure, I only spent an hour on it, but that was an hour that I didn't spend on the Internet! I'm looking forward to the day I can say with certainty that I live on 24 hours a day.

LimitedInfo2• 5 years ago

I like your use of "The Algorithm." I think every one of us has an issue with The Algorithm, its just a difference of UI depending on which addicting service is the problem.

avg_dev• 5 years ago

some of us run the gamut

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

Yes, exactly. I would say that without moderation even the deep delving of information can be a tool for procrastination that is more easily justifiable to yourself for why you never seem to make any progress on your goals.

nerdponx2• 5 years ago

I almost feel like Gaming is better than Scrolling at this point. Of course, Reading a Book is probably better still, and has almost the same escapism potential, but also a lot less bad for your eyes and brain.

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

I have a tendency to listen to audiobooks about a variety of subjects while I game, scroll, drive, and do other chores in the interest of maximizing my enjoyment time and my educational goals. I do feel as though I get a lot of pleasure from this action but also worry that I'm slowly eradicating my already finicky attention span.

greggman3• 5 years ago

Reading is less bad for your eyes? When I game it's usually on a console it's 2 to 3 meters from me eyes. When I read the book is 20cm and I know it's bad for my eyes because I find it hard to focus after I look up from the book :P

awelxtr• 5 years ago

Reading a Book is probably better stil

Hot take: why? Why is reading _better_ than gaming?

From an "entertainment" point of view I very much doubt it. I see it as snobbish.

From "productivity" point of view, well games have never been a productive thing so why comparing apples to oranges?

From an "educational" point of view stuff doesn't differ much that from a productivity point of view.

Then again, if you have non productive time to slot where you can do anything, why are books the "superior" choice?

Context: Yes, I do play games, but I also read 9-10 books a year.

avgcorrection10• 5 years ago

There is a clear stereotype of book readers needing glasses. That’s less of a stereotype for people who play games.

less bad for your brain

I guess this is obvious? I don’t see how either would be bad for that.

r3trohack3r2• 5 years ago

Have been working through this myself.

I built https://retrohacker.github.io/wikiscroll partially as a habit breaker.

I noticed I use social media (mostly) for information discovery. I asked myself what information I’m trying to discover and worked backwards to a healthier relationship with that discovery mechanism from there. Ended up with Wikipedia and then tried to build a similar mechanism as social media scrolling on top.

It’s an alternative to doom scrolling social media for me, where the fun facts are actually fun, little to no social outrage, and there isn’t any FOMO - the same content will always be there tomorrow.

inatreecrown2• 5 years ago

i enjoy your project , thank you

a9h74j• 5 years ago

Brilliant! I'm placing a link right next to one I have for https://www.locserendipity.com/

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

This is so cool! I'm definitely going to share this with my social groups. I am definitely guilty of using information seeking as a form of procrastination- I feel as though as long as I am learning I am not wasting my time but without the implementation of a to do list I slowly stop getting anything done besides reading in depth about different topics.

circleit2• 5 years ago

Mentally: It’s actually not that hard, you’re over thinking it. Just do anything else than the thing you don’t want to do. The thing you fall back on is a habit. It is one thing you do over and over, instead of the infinite other things you could otherwise be doing. Recognize in life these fallback habits and do something different. Take the same road to work? Take a different route one day. By breaking habits you open your world to infinite possibilities.

Physically: put your phone in your bedroom or wherever you keep it when you go to sleep. Don’t be in that room till you go to sleep. You break the habit of normally having the phone with you all the time. See what happens when it’s not.

fao_4• 5 years ago

Mentally: It is that hard. Executive dysfunction and ADHD are both fully understood physiological disorders that are only the domain of psych because the symptoms are psychological in their manifestation.

A would wager a fair amount of these people will be doomscrolling because they essentially have too little, or too much, dopamine, and while there are ways to get the body to prompt creation of it, often there are tangible problems in the number of neurotransmitters or the amount that is created that can cause this.

For example: Often I want to take a shower, but end up sitting on my bed for hours, essentially unable to move to complete my task. I wondered for a long time if this was me, if I just tried hard enough, maybe I could beat it. But the fact is, it isn't -- it's a tangible and measurable problem with the way my body functions that stops me from being able to move to complete the task.

The poster's description of this above sounds extremely, alarmingly similar to my experience, and those of my friends and coworkers with it. Personally, I wonder whether the widespread, common, and societally endorsed distribution of caffeine and nicotine -- both stimulants, have effects on the developing child. It would explain the sheer prevalence of it, and also the prevalance of the stimulants, as stimulants are drugs that are prescribed for managing ADHD* :)

* - most people who are diagnosed are found to already be weakly medicating themselves with stimulants!

rewgs• 5 years ago

This is precisely the thing I figured out when I finally eventually quit a long-term weed dependence: do anything else. It does not matter what it is (well, within reason). At first, I spent a lot of time staring at the walls, literally, simply resisting the urge.

quickthrower2• 5 years ago

Reading a book might be a good switch: instead of scrolling you are turning the pages. Now it becomes tiring because it requires holding focus.

If that happens then play: pen and paper and no plan, doodle something. Or pace around. Be bored! Go for a walk.

luckyscs2• 5 years ago

Get out of the house. The house is part of the super algorithm that leads you to getting stuck in that "algorithm".

Try meetups, concerts, trivia, etc. You'll get further in your endeavors through absorbing info irl rather than trying to create from nothing.

bch• 5 years ago

Get out of the house.

This is a tactic I use. Weather permitting, spending an hour out on the bicycle often pays large dividends.

dt3ft• 5 years ago

This is the key. Get out of the house.

powersnail• 5 years ago

I find it particularly soul-crushing because I do have things that I consciously want to do during that time, like write music and film short films, but those things take effort and commitment, so instead I spend night after night doomscrolling Twitter/Reddit/YouTube/HN.

The things that you want to do might be too difficult to begin. Some part of your brain doesn't know that you can write music or make films successfully enough to gain any reward. The mental hurdle is very big if you just stare at a blank sheet music.

Instead, start with something smaller and more structured. Take some lessons, for instance, and do assignments which you know will lead to some form of product.

iratewizard• 5 years ago

And cut off the free dopamine sources. Make your phone's screen black and white. Use an extension to block Twitter, reddit, YouTube and HN. Learn to be bored again like when you were young.

skeeter2020• 5 years ago

I did a cool experiment a few years ago called "Song Bits". I used to write a lot of music but can't get anything done-done anymore, so I set this challenge: Write a snippet of music every day for a month.

The parameters were very strict:

    * target ~30 seconds in length
    * solo piano only
    * no post production
    * spend ~30 minutes of effort per day

I was really happy with the results, and it was fun!

randomopining• 5 years ago

The moment you think this thought, you gotta instantly just put the phone down and do something else. It hurts for like 2 mins and then it doesn't.

hashimotonomora2• 5 years ago

Get a tally counter and count every time you have an urge to scroll, watch another video, or refresh Reddit. Write a daily log of your counter. Every time you feel the urge, pause for 10 seconds and then consciously decide if you want to do that or not. It’s a lot of work at the beginning but I guarantee you’ll get your attention back.

avgcorrection10• 5 years ago

Once I act like that (F5 F5) chances are that I don’t have much energy left for deliberate action. So the advice seems to be: do this deliberate action every time you are out of energy. That doesn’t make sense.

petesergeant• 5 years ago

I recently moved all Algorithmic Distractions on to a purpose-bought iPad and blocked them from all other devices. This has been useful in helping me distinguish when I'm wasting time or not, and meant I need to be physically using the iPad to distract myself, rather than just having distractions there on my phone or computer

texasbigdata4• 5 years ago

Super interesting thanks!!!

Gigachad2• 5 years ago

I don't think either of those are ideal. Your brain does need some rest time, rather than getting home and getting right back on to high mental intensity activities, consider just going outside for a walk. You can let your brain rest while walking, it improves your mental and physical health, and is a much better use of time than reddit.

BeetleB5• 5 years ago

A few weeks ago I realized I had spent half of my life with high speed Internet, and half without. I tried to think of all the memorable experiences I'd had with computers, and pretty much every one I could think of[1] were from the pre-high speed Internet era. Most were from before having any Internet.

I mentioned this to a similar aged friend, and he thought about it and said it applied to him too.

Which leads to the question: Why am I spending so much time on the Internet? I spend a lot more time on the computer. Where is it going and why am I no longer enjoying it?

What did I do pre-Internet?

- Played games. Lots and lots of them. When I was younger I often felt I had played too many games and bemoaned the time lost. Looking back now at so many good experiences I had with games, I don't regret it one bit. I should get back into playing games (I stopped a long time ago).

- Wrote code for fun. Wrote simple silly games. Wrote programs to produce the Mandelbrot fractal. Today I write code to help me solve problems, but not for fun.

- Toyed with programs like POV-Ray

- Generally explored interesting SW

What do I do today on the computer?

- Read articles

- Write code to solve problems (automate boring tasks, improve my web site, etc)

- Email

- Productivity related stuff (TODO management, finances, etc).

- Looking up stuff (Google Maps, Yelp, Stackoverflow)

- Shopping, online banking, paying bills, scheduling medical appointments, booking flights, etc.

I'd say perhaps 90% of that time is using the browser. Getting a consistent interface is pretty much an experience killer.

I've certainly learned a lot with all that reading. And my code I write really does solve problems. But none of it is fun or memorable.

Conclusion? I traded enjoyable experiences for utility. It was not a good trade.

[1] And I could think of many!

_AzMoo• 5 years ago

This sounds more like you've just moved from a kid without responsibility to an adult with responsibility.

napier• 5 years ago

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

There are rarely recognized negative factors associated with having ultra high bandwidth instant response impulse satisfaction on tap.

I used to read a book a day. I used to ponder curiosities in more depth until I could piece together conclusions from library visits and talking to people f2f or on the phone; long held interests and sustained human relationships would oftentimes result as a side effect. I used to spend a lot more time outdoors.

There are trade offs to instantaneous information access and I am going to try and mitigate them as a belated New Year resolution.

piva002• 5 years ago

Hey, I wanted to pitch in to say I've been through the same train of thought the past 3-6 months. After realising that I've had access to high speed internet for the past 20 years and analysing why I'm feeling progressively worse with my usage of it.

I came to the same conclusion: even though browsing through HN, Reddit and so on for the past 10-12 years has been immensely useful for some parts of my life (some hobbies, my profession, very interesting articles I got exposed to) I noticed that the past 3-4 years I have been very unhappy with my consumption.

It got worse after I stopped to analyse it, I noticed these past months that I'm actually addicted to the loop of instant reward that reading something passably interesting pushes me to. Forcing myself to not read HN or my favourite subreddits for a day or two causes very similar symptoms of withdrawal that I had when quitting smoking, actually it's a pretty good parallel to me: if I use it I feel like crap and guilty afterwards, if I don't use it I feel like crap and unfulfilled.

It's been a really hard realisation, hard and scary to be honest.

yodsanklai• 5 years ago

Before internet, I would read a lot of books and magazines. Also, when I was a math undergraduate, I would work a lot.

Nowadays, I have the hardest time to focus. I'd love to regain my past ability to focus.

gherkinnn3• 5 years ago

A lot of those utilities have been dehumanised.

Instead of calling a doctor's office, we're fighting a badly built online scheduler. Obsessively scrutinising restaurant reviews on GMaps takes away from the subtle excitement of flaneuring. Reflexively reaching for Wikipedia as soon as something not immediately known pops up in a conversation kills it immediately.

It's an empty life.

Luckily, it's easy to simply not do many of these things once you're aware of them. Email is near compulsory to function, Yelp reviews are not.

maccard3• 5 years ago

Played games. Lots and lots of them

I spend as much time playing games now (as an adult) as another person might do watching TV or on Instagram/tabloid media, and probably 1/3 of that time is spent playing multiplayer games with friends I've had for years who live in different places that I can't just hop in the car and go visit.

My coding experience has changed though; I work in video games so I spend my day doing "creative" coding and have almost 0 interest in continuing that outside of work. Intetestingly when I was a teenager I had little to no interest in studying languages or literature; all i wanted to do was code and play games. Now that I am "forced" to code all day, I look forward to reading, watching movies and seeing shows; all the things I was forced to do as a kid for school.

tasha0663• 5 years ago

I traded enjoyable experiences for utility. It was not a good trade.

I was looking at QWERTY keyboard options for my iPad when I realized, "if I'm doing something on this that requires that level of typing, I've made a mistake".

tomjen3• 5 years ago

I have mentioned this before, but I have trouble starting things. At one point it reached pathological levels and I had to do something.

What I found out researching on the internet was the idea of committing to do something for just 10 minutes, then I am free to stop or not. Often I find that I don't want to stop, sometimes I do. If I do stop, that is absolutely fine too.

For everything else, there is beeminder.

apatters• 5 years ago

At the risk of oversimplifying this, why don't you just stick your phone in a drawer when you get home?

I do that (and when possible, put it in another room entirely) when I want to get some focused work done. Same goes for when it's bedtime, which has done good things for my sleep quality.

Just dump the infernal thing for a while and see where your brain takes you.

watwut• 5 years ago

I do have things that I consciously want to do during that time, like write music and film short films, but those things take effort and commitment, so instead I spend night after night doomscrolling Twitter/Reddit/YouTube/HN.

Are the things you want to do actually rest and relax to you? Maybe you are trying to turn your life into 80 hours crunch and overwork. And it will have the exact same effects as working that much on a job.

People were not 100% pre-mobile phones. We read junk books, journals, watched tv, socialized, played soccer, spent a lot of time daydreaming.

OtomotO2• 5 years ago

One tip I can give you: Give yourself small, achievable (!) goals for each day. Nothing too fancy, nothing you need to put in hours of research before you can complete them, just something.

And then execute it. Each and every day, without failing. Sometimes you do more because you're "in the flow" on others you do the bare minimum.

I am doing this with my fitness routine for over 2 years now (started pre-COVID) and it does wonders to my brain and my overall well-being. Because I am committed. I have a streak for over two years (when I got vaccinated, I did more the days before and took a few days off - the minimum was kept for every single day, just not executed on every single day. Only exception: Vaccination) and I feel motivated not to break it.

This recurrent approach worked wonders for me.

xorfish• 5 years ago

Around two months ago I started to do a rather minimal bodyweight fitness routine (around 30 minutes 3 times per week):

https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/routines/bwf...

I'm not sure how much of my motivation is the constant progress I'm making and how I will keep the motivation once progress slows down.

herbst2• 5 years ago

What worked for me to increase the productivity and fun in my free time is making the free time long enough to actually enjoy it.

I heavily a doubt a human can be mentally healthy with time consuming hobbies and a 40hour plus job.

huachimingo• 5 years ago

Maybe a little challenge could motivate you? Have you heard about "the 30 day Rudy challenge"[1]?

Probably a bad idea, but could be fun anyways...

[1] https://youtu.be/TaZ8CLTQ_1M

putsjoe• 5 years ago

Possibly off topic but could this be procrastination more than an addiction to the Algo?

I've found my procrastination stems from a fear of failure. Maybe you doom scroll instead of do these other things because your afraid you'll 'fail' at them and feel bad rather than because they are effort and commitment.

paxys• 5 years ago

Articles like these are always thinly-veiled judgement pieces in the guise of self help. The TL;DR is – spend your few hours a day of free time doing "good" things like writing poetry, painting and learning stuff rather than "bad" ones like watching Netflix, relaxing or socializing. My question – why? What is it that makes the former way of life so much better than the latter? Are people who study science in their free time that much happier/more fulfilled/more successful than those who just laze around?

If happiness and mental health is what you want to prioritize, then I'd argue that you should be doing the opposite of what the author suggests. Don't set goals for yourself. Don't be on a permanent quest to amass more knowledge and skills. Don't feel like you have to put every minute of every day to good use, otherwise you are losing out.

askafriend• 5 years ago

Netflix has a bunch of great documentaries.

superasn• 5 years ago

Yeah one thing that these so called productivity hackers need to learn is the skill to Just be.

No need to learn anything, improve yourself or get better. Just be. It's okay to watch Netflix and play candy crush. But no, you ought to live 24 hours a day and improve yourself for God knows what endgoal.

vasco• 5 years ago

There's no goal, but people need a meaning for life and it's hard to find meaning in candy crush. You can avoid those questions and be happy but most people know they're avoiding it. Man's search for meaning is one hell of a thing.

lxrbst• 5 years ago

That's just plain escapism or veiled hedonism. There's more to life than enjoying yourself 24/7.

goda90• 5 years ago

But this isn't a productivity hack article. It's about Actually Being. If you put in 40 hours of Netflix and Candy Crush, will you be able to look back a week and remember the hours, or will it be a blur with a couple good moments from a show that stick out? There are lots of ways to Actually Be that aren't "productive".

LimitedInfo2• 5 years ago

I think the problem with your suggestion is it ignores fulfillment. Yes if you simply watch Netflix, relax, and socialize you will be happy. However, If that's the only thing you do besides a job you don't enjoy; You might often question what you're doing with your life. The correct answer is you need to find an appropriate mix of "good" things and "bad" things to do in your free time. What that exact mix is will be different for each individual.

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

I do agree with you that this article leaves a lot to be desired. It definitely ignores mental disorder as a whole or that there are people who prioritize relaxation over productivity and are perfectly happy to do so.

So I think the answer to your question "What is it that makes the former way of life so much better than the latter?" is that for many people they feel a genuine lack of fulfillment from just watching Netflix and chilling. I certainly do- and allowing myself to slide into slug mode is actively detrimental to my mental health and a good way to fall into a depression pit. I however do NOT expect every one else to feel the same way as me, some people do better when they do less.

ngngngng2• 5 years ago

The crucial aspect here is deliberation. If you decide that you want to watch Netflix, or relax, or socialize, then that's quality leisure. The issue is that many of us are driven by The Algorithm to spend hours a day doing things we're not really sure we want to do. We don't take time to think about it because dopamine driven positive feedback loops have taken all conscious thought out of the activity.

thestruggl3• 5 years ago

I often find that after work I’ll be “too tired” to play with my kids, but I know my wife needs help. So I’ll find ways to be around the kids without fully interacting with them. I know that certain things elicit complaints, such as being on my computer; I avoid those, but I still find other ways to distract myself from reality. When I do this, I don’t really enjoy my time with my kids, I don’t really rest. I’m just wasting time.

Respect to the author for the honesty. Comforting to know I'm not the only one who does this. It feels like such a tragic waste and the guilt is real but I'm just so tired WCYD...

waynesonfire• 5 years ago

Sleep less, try polyphasic sleeping

karlicoss• 5 years ago

I am kind of doing that, spending my most free time reading, studying, working on personal projects, etc. And 24 hours per day is still not nearly enough for all what I want to do and learn and achieve :(

beaconstudios3• 5 years ago

I can relate to your sentiment more than TFA these days. I spend very little time on here and youtube (my chief prior addictions) these days, but I have tons of things I want to do and little time to fit them in - projects, books to read, a blog/educational site to start, paintings to finish, etc etc. It's quite frustrating because I used to be very dissociative/escapist like the author and now I'm not I wish I could have all that time back! Especially now that I also have a baby on the way; much of my time is taken up preparing, and when he's here I'll be spending lots of time looking after him.

squam• 5 years ago

I used to be very dissociative/escapist like the author and now I'm not

I would love to hear more about how that change happened. I'd like to make a similar transition myself.

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

This is where I'm at too at this point. My mind is so active it feels like I'm on fire with passion for what I want to accomplish while keeping myself healthy. I've definitely had to scold myself because I will catch myself trying to barter with my sleep so I can have more time to work on my projects, and I know that if you are sacrificing sleep you are sacrificing a lot of your bodies ability to heal and learn.

axiosgunnar• 5 years ago

I don't keep todo lists.

Todo lists are for assistants and entry level engineers grinding away at bugs.

(not to be disrespectful to those people, just trying to get my point across).

Senior staff focuses on vision and long term goals of the company, which are mostly emotional and in your head anyways.

And things like „fix broken bike bell“ - if it‘s important enough, it will come up often enough to bug me and I will get it fixed.

Just make sure not to outsource reminders in other people, ie don‘t rely on people having to remind you several times before you actually do something.

Delegate the task away right away, or reject it, or become passionate enough about it to not need a todo list.

jiggunjer• 5 years ago

So how do you become passionate about doing your taxes. I see those deadlines come and go and feel nothing.

At least the todo list won't let me push it out of my mind for days/weeks/months. Maybe I'll have a good day and look at the list and plough through some items.

serverlessmom7• 5 years ago

Do you not have any hobbies or other skills that you are working on that would benefit by being broken up into smaller tasks? I have about ten to do lists that cover a wide arrange of different subjects that help keep me on task and help me validate and track my progress.

subpixel• 5 years ago

This is fine advice and I think we all have a bit more time available to us than we imagine.

But as a parent, I have at best time to workout before I drive myself to work and my munchkin to school, and then what time remains between their bedtime and my own - 90 min.

I suspect with tech work and family responsibilities a better approach is to figure out how to achieve more professionally with less time, so an hour or two at your desk can be allocated to more fulfilling pursuits.

tempestn2• 5 years ago

This reminds me of a book I've read a couple of times now, The Power of Full Engagement. Their very similar concept is that the limiting factor in most of our lives isn't really time, but energy. As described in the OP, most of us have experience evenings that felt wasted because we're too tired from work to do anything valuable, but trying to cram value into every moment of life also feels exhausting. The basic take of the book is that every area of our life needs periods of exertion and periods of rest, much like the body does in order to build muscle. The same is true of the mind and the emotional self. So for each of these realms, you ideally want to be either fully engaged, or fully at rest, not somewhere in-between. Then it gives various techniques to achieve this. One I liked in particular is to take opportunities that might otherwise be frustrating - stuck in traffic, in line at the bank, whatever - and see them as instead a time for mental rest.

Anyway, might be a good read. FWIW I'm a big fan of GTD as well. Used properly I think a system like that can be a good complement to this philosophy. When it's time to work, you grab a task from your list and get right to it. And when it's not time to work, you can free your brain of any related distractions, confident that everything you need to remember will be in your GTD system when you need it again. (Likewise if you have a stray idea that you want to remember, instead of holding it in your brain, it can go in there.) Helps keep work (and by that I mean any jobs that need to be done, not just the 9-5) from dominating your thoughts all the time.

she11c0de• 5 years ago

This. I'm surprised we still fall for the "use every waking hour productively" bs when it's clear once you try to implement it that really energy is the limiting factor, not time. Burnout is a real, you need to think seriously about rest.

zarzavat• 5 years ago

Could it be however that our mindless scrolling on the internet is more exertion than rest? I certainly don’t feel rested after using it.

Conversely many things which are in principle exertion can actually have restorative effect.

dblooman• 5 years ago

Honestly thought this was going to be satire about molly mae hague

ab_testing• 5 years ago

I have been trying these activities like Trello boards, daily routines and other things on and off for a couple of years. One thing I have noticed is that when you have small children, things can change very quickly. Your Trello board might tell you to concentrate on work or your daily workout, but when your little one needs you, then you invariably leave everything and tend to your kids.

ngngngng2• 5 years ago

This is an unsolved problem for me as well. How do I add focus to my free time, while giving meaningful time to my kids, and adjusting on a dime when they demand my attention? This is currently my biggest excuse to waste time. Why try to focus on hobbies or learning when at any second my wife or kids might need me at any moment and I've already spent 8ish hours of my day giving them zero of my attention?

orky56• 5 years ago

This plus WFH is an even bigger challenge since the lines have blurred between free time between meetings and free time before and after work. At my wits end trying to be a serious working professional and a contributing father & husband.

CaptArmchair2• 5 years ago

I didn't see that as an "unsolved problem" at the time. When my kid was little, spending a good chunk of my time tending to them was par for the course. I never saw that as an obligation or a "problem", but rather as part of a conscious choice regarding lifestyle I had made.

Of course, that doesn't mean one can't have hobbies or can't learn. But it did mean that I wouldn't be able to dedicate a comparable amount of time or focus to them, as I would have if I didn't have a child to tend to. Accepting that as a fact of life was really helpful.

It does help to put in active effort in equal measure. Like, alternating taking care of bedtime routines, cooking, eating, care, etc.

Regardless, I can understand the sentiment. Inevitably, you're going to reflect "Why am I doing this again?" and "Oh, I could have done x or y while I was playing with toys!". That's just par for the course as a parent. And it's totally valid. Inevitably, there's some frustration involved in raising children. It's just that you can choose to let that go, or dive into a negative diatribe about personal choices directed against yourself, which is just a ticket to misery.

In all of this, it does also help to remind yourself: It will get better! And the time you invest in your children when they are small really does pay off dividends as you all grow older.

It really is a phase in life. A teenager is very different from a small kid. You don't have to spend every second tending to them anymore. They start to live their own lives with their own habits, gaining their own independence. As a parent, you also regain freedom to take up hobbies again. Of course, a teenager comes with different challenges, and you still have to pay attention, but between 6 and 16, everyone's lives look quite different.

steve_adams_862• 5 years ago

I have to say, making myself read before bed (I no longer need to make myself do it, I look forward to it) was a major game changer a couple years ago.

I was pretty distraught because I was effectively diagnosed with a mental disability and was suddenly confronted with the reality of what I’d been living with. It was crushing to my self esteem in a way. I always knew something was wrong, but now there was this professionally diagnosed wart on my identity and self esteem. I felt pretty hopeless.

I began reading about it. I began reading about self esteem, identity, introspection, and how to generally navigate this change in my life. I got into philosophy. I got into psychology. I began reading about childhood psychology specifically to understand better how my strengths and weaknesses might impact my kids. How could I manage my brain better in order to be a better dad for them? What mistakes had I already made than I could try to correct?

I’ve become so much better for it. I still read the dry stuff because I love it, but I weave in fiction here and there as well. I’ve always got a couple books I’m excited to read. I use a kindle at the lowest light setting with no lights on.

My rule is that it can’t be about work and it can’t be about a hobby, or I’m not giving myself a break and/or I won’t be able to stop reading. The goal is to read myself to sleep, not get too engaged (at least not too often).

This does three things. It expands my mind, keeps me from doom scrolling, and it greatly improves my ability to get to sleep. These reinforce each other and the benefits really compound.

I’m not a super-person now or anything. I’m just less dumb, usually better rested, and a little happier for it.

I can’t recommend a night time reading habit enough. Fit that into your 24 hours. Reading and exercise.

scrapcode• 5 years ago

When I moved into my new home about 18 months ago I decided to forego putting a television in my bedroom. Instead I throw a [wireless] earbud in and listen to a podcast or audio book set to a 30-minute sleep timer. I know this is not perfect, but is at least a step in the right direction as I very rarely am awake when the timer goes off. However, I don't feel that I retain much of the information. Do you feel like you retain most of what you have read before going to bed? Also, do you prefer print or ebooks?

titanomachy• 5 years ago

It’s wild to me that a TV in the bedroom is considered the default. It’s not something I’ve ever felt I’m missing.

steve_adams_862• 5 years ago

Nice, that’s a great step in the right direction. I’ve tried audiobooks but I find they keep me up more, somehow. It’s almost like listening wakes up my brain more than reading. If they didn’t I think that would be a great alternative to reading at night.

Haha, those are good questions regarding retention and ebooks vs. paper books.

As far as retention, I think I do a lot better than I expected. I’m not sure how it works out so well. As I’m falling asleep (this figures into the next question) I tend to do weird things like skip several pages or even change the font size accidentally, which totally throws me off of my position in the book. However I tend to recall very well where I left off and find the location fairly easily. Even so, it’s pretty annoying, haha.

Because of that I really do prefer paper books in that I tend to put them down and have a distinct transition to sleep, meaning it’s hard to lose my spot or doubt my retention. I also notice and recall page numbers subconsciously so forgetting a book mark is no big deal anyway.

Unfortunately I need light to read a book, and that almost always causes me to stay awake longer. It’s a tough call. Paper books are better in nearly every way besides portability and the light factor. And of course the environment, too - I imagine I’ve saved a couple trees by now and the ebook seems bomb proof. Definitely capable of saving a few more in its lifetime.

So overall it seems like the ebook wins, especially at night. In the last several years I think I’ve read several dozen books on it and maybe close to a dozen paper books.

lmas• 5 years ago

I personally find it easier to remember what I've read, compared to what podcast/audio book I played while in bed.

It's also, curiosly, easier for me to follow written instructions, compared to spoken (at work for example).

AussieWog932• 5 years ago

Just as you can go too hard on getting sucked into social media and other vices, you can definitely over-optimise your time and turn into a robot as well.

Maybe it's important for your sanity to spend two hours a day reading Wikipedia articles about the Wehrmacht or playing Age of Empires 2. Then again, maybe it's not. But approaching your habits from an overly logical, optimisation-focused point of view will destroy your soul. You are a biologically-evolved animal; not an intellectual abstraction.

Liquix• 5 years ago

There's nothing wrong with taking a little (or a lot) of leisure time. It's the mindless screen usage and not-relaxing/not-being-productive limbo that are problematic

Kifot• 5 years ago

Exactly, I feel like the problem is that these days we no longer actually play Age of Empires (which, again, would be fine), we share this time between playing Age of Empires, looking at Instagram and checking out work emails

AussieWog932• 5 years ago

Is it, though?

I'm not a psychologist, but there must be some reason why people "veg out". Before Facebook and Instagram, it was TV. Before then, I'm honestly not sure.

moneywoes3• 5 years ago

My condolences to the colleague RIP. Sounds like he lived a valued and actualized life.

markus_zhang• 5 years ago

With WFH implemented in a lot of companies, maybe it's easier and more fruitful to get up early and use the morning hours to work on hobbies and learning.

Unless you are one of the lucky whose work involve a lot of brain juice spending, you probably feel tired because of something else. It could be office politics or endlessly pinging a colleague for permission to get real work rolled out. But neither of the situation involves a lot of brain juice and it's a total waste of energy. It is as if someone depreciate a battery not by connecting it to a circuit, but by slowly burning it on fire.

By switching hobbies and learning, which probably need more brain juice, to morning hours, we spend energy more meaningfully, while not impacting our jobs by much. It introduces additional bonus that we can actually sit down and watch TV or play with kids without burning with anxiety. It's the ideal model IMHO.

waingake2• 5 years ago

In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd or critic. -- Karl Marx

mvind• 5 years ago

* assuming you have a pagan slave population which can be worked to death in order to provide for the intelligentsia utopia fantasy

waingake2• 5 years ago

a pagan slave population which can be worked to death in order to provide for the intelligentsia utopia fantasy

Are you describing the people who made your iPhone?

StanislavPetrov2• 5 years ago

For many (most?) of the working people I know in New York, 8/8/8 is a fantasy (or at least was before COVID/remote work). You rise at 5 am so that you can walk your dog, make some coffee, take a shower, get ready for work, eat a banana and leave by 6 in order to catch a 6:30 train to the city (if you can find parking at the train station where you pay a high monthly parking fee). If the train is on time, and the connecting subway(s) are on time, you arrive at work by 8:30. If you are lucky enough to work only an 8 hour day (with the 1 hour for lunch that you are mandated to take and extends your day at work but is unpaid) you gather your things and leave by 5:30 pm to try to fight the crowds at Penn Station and catch the 6 o'clock train. If the subway(s) and the train are all on time you get home by 7:30 pm. You walk your dog and by now you are too tired to cook so you order food and by the time it gets there and you eat its 9 pm and if you go to sleep right now you can get 8 hours sleep.

And this is all if your day goes smoothly! If you can't find parking, the train is late, the subway is late, you have to stay longer at work or you miss the fastest train home (all things which happen multiple times per week), you are behind the 8-ball on your 8 hours! This also pushes all of the chores that have to be done (laundry, cleaning the house, getting the car serviced, mowing the lawn, taking the dog to the vet, shopping for food, ect) to the weekend which ensures that there won't be much spare time to schedule for elective activities.

This may seem like a pessimistic picture but it is reality for hundreds of thousands/millions of commuters in the NY/metro area. If you ever happen to be in New York take a ride on the LIRR or the Metro North on a weekday at 7 am to witness real misery!

cm2012• 5 years ago

I did this for 8 years, started working from home 6 years ago and would never ever go back.

StanislavPetrov2• 5 years ago

Did it briefly, took a look at how miserable it made everyone around me, and decided very quickly I'd rather make less money and be able to live life. Have many friends who live this lifestyle and are more "well off" in the sense that they make more money and drive more expensive cars but it always seems like a tragedy to me to see them burning up years in the prime of their life that they will never get back.

basisword2• 5 years ago

Surely the issue here is living a silly distance from your office? You either move close to the office (spending more money on accommodation) or you get a job closer to home (probably sacrificing the higher salary). Both rational and possible choices.

jimmyed• 5 years ago

Great insights. It was somewhat distracting to see the word "deep" overused. A whopping 7 times, sprinkled like resins on a cookie.

iamjfu2• 5 years ago

OP here. This is my favorite comment in the entire thread. Thank you!

iamjfu2• 5 years ago

My wife has similar feelings about my semicolon usage.

12907835202• 5 years ago

I completely revitalised my life by deciding to treat myself as the primary focus of my day and my job as the extra that fit in around it i.e. working 8-10am and 5-11pm and having each day to myself.

I was living in Australia but working remotely for a company UK. I got into a terrible habit of waking up at 7-8am and reading and replying to all the emails and slack chats that had happened over night for an hour or two. Then I'd work alone without interruption 9-5 then around 5pm the UK would wake up and I'd get emails and slack notifications on my phone which i'd dip in and out of until 11-12pm when I'd go to bed.

I'd essentially be switched on to work 16 hours a day.

So I swapped it and decided I would take 9-5 everyday for myself and only work the hours around it.

I'd wake up at 8am and do all my emails and chats from bed on my phone then jump up and be on my laptop while eating breakfast. Maybe do a couple of small easy tasks. I'd do that till about 10am.

Then 10-5 was me time. I'd go to the gym, go to the park, play computer games, read, work on hobbies etc. I'd travel and meet friends for lunch if I could. Reading and listening to music as I travelled to their work. I also had alot of friends who worked hospitality so they would also often be free.

Then I'd get to my rented co-working space at 5pm and work for 6 hours till 11pm. Eating dinner at my desk, usually something I'd made in bulk on Sunday that I could reheat.

I'd then walk 10 mins home and either jump straight into bed or do a couple of chores and be in bed by midnight.

If someone wanted to socialise in the evening I'd just tell my colleagues and work during the day that day.

Doing this was amazing. I felt like had so much free time, I'd even sometimes get bored.

I definitely wasn't productive during all these 9-5s, sometimes the time would just vanish and I'd have nothing to show for it. But that's fine.

I made the most of all the sunlight hours rather than being stuck in doors which was amazing.

I don't think my work suffered, I think they preffered it as I was available to talk and join meetings.

I also found it really helpful to spend 8-10am planning my tasks for the day, then letting it all stew in the back of my head for 7 hours before working on it. I'd generally have some eureka moments mid afternoon and excitedly crack on when 5pm came around.

Obviously this isn't possible for everyone and it did cause some issues particularly with dating, but it was alot better than the 9-5 grind.

khazhoux• 5 years ago

Why am I reading all the comments in this thread???

evancoop• 5 years ago

A college friend wandered the dorm bleary-eyed. His aspirations were pre-med. In a moment of revelation, he noted that if he were so inclined, he could find enough material to spend every waking hour studying.

He also recognized that this was college, and he was planning to use at least some of those hours sleeping or socializing.

Therefore, he concluded, he wasn't going to "work as hard as he could" or any such phrase about maximizing one's output/accomplishment. All that remained was satisfying himself.

He went on to study music. He is a professor of musicology now. I never saw him comparably stressed thereafter.

nathias• 5 years ago

Generalized tools breed bad habits. If you want to break your bad internet habits reclaim the content away from the browsers into other programs. If you want to break your bad smartphone habits reclaim content away from the phone and use specialized tools.

aw9f70gae• 5 years ago

I read a book called 4000 Weeks that mentions the book in the OP. It cautions us not to get too caught up in the need to use one’s time productively. I recommend at least reading the blurb.

Living on 24 hours a day

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