Microsoft posts its own teardown and repair video for the Surface Laptop SE

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/01/microsoft-posts-its-own-teardown-and-repair-video-for-the-surface-laptop-se/

by FridayoLeary • 5 years ago

193 107 5 years ago

client4• 5 years ago

I'm sure it's been said before by many, but I'd have a few extra mm of thickness to get back replaceable ram, ssd, wifi, etc.

The post yesterday about moving back to an old Thinkpad has me motivated to do something like that for my next computer. A Thinkpad chassis with an updated mainboad, screen, and battery would make me happy.

yokoprime2• 5 years ago

I have a 10 year old T420S with a new battery. Im _really_ interested in screen replacements as the original screen is pretty weak.

ab_testing• 5 years ago

It is possible to upgrade to IPS display in a T420. This is a starting point. It needs a special controller card and ofcourse an upgraded screen.

https://www.curlybrace.com/words/2020/11/24/thinkpad-t420-ip...

https://www.amazon.com/1080p-1920X1080-Upgrade-thinkpad-Cont...

anotherman554• 5 years ago

How did you get a reliable new battery for a 10 year old laptop? Lenovo doesn't appear to make batteries for old laptops, and I've had bad experiences ordering from random sellers on Amazon.com.

okl2• 5 years ago

Upgrade to a refurbished T450s or T460 and you get a very nice FHD IPS display.

mlindner• 5 years ago

With the trend for on-die RAM and the lower latencies that allows, it's not going to be possible to remove the RAM in the future.

bentcorner• 5 years ago

I think that's a more-or-less acceptable compromise for now.

Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone add on-board RAM back in to allow for cheaper expansion. Most operating systems support NUMA, this approach seems similar to that idea.

wtallis• 5 years ago

Nobody is moving DRAM on-die. Apple puts DRAM on-package, and x86 laptops using LPDDRx solder it on the main board next to the soldered-down CPU/SoC. The advantage of doing so is not latency (which is still dominated by stuff that happens entirely within the DRAM die) but rather that LPDDR allows for lower power draw for the same bandwidth.

kube-system3• 5 years ago

These machines exist. They’re just not usually stocked at your local big box store because that’s not a mass-market priority. Mass market customers would rather have a machine that is thinner, lighter, cheaper, and with better battery life.

ip26• 5 years ago

On the other hand, socketed parts are prone to corrosion at the contacts in adverse conditions. My old x61 had some issues with the SO-DIMM socket corroding from all the time in my bike bags.

Soldered-down ram and an add-on socket has seemed like a nice compromise to me.

black_puppydog• 5 years ago

totally guessing here, but that's not the majority of use cases ;)

kasabali2• 5 years ago

Soldered parts are prone to fractures in BGA solder balls which are more annoying and expensive to repair compared to cleaning up sockets and rubbing pads with a pencil eraser one in a while.

rswail• 5 years ago

Framework Laptop provides customization and upgradeability which sounds like what you want.

https://frame.work

vaylian• 5 years ago

Agreed. I think the disassembly video of the Surface SE is pretty impressive (kudos Microsoft!), but Framework still blows the Surface SE out of the water in terms of internal accessibility and modularity of the laptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV2umY3R0vw

NikolaNovak4• 5 years ago

Framework gets us a long way in the right direction; still lacking things some of us need - admittedly a minority:

1. Standardized keyboard. For some reason modern laptops hate Home/End/PgUp/PgDwn buttons; but I use them literally every minute of my typing. Arrow keys too are tiny, up and down look to be sharing the same key - so basically unusable on regular basis.

2. Trackpoint/Nub/Nipple. If you're trying to make a small laptop, rather than crippling keyboard for the sake of massive giant trackpad, Trackpoint is the way to go. Granted, higher learning curve for many, but very rewarding in the end.

Again, understanding we are now talking a niche of a niche - "want standard keyboard and trackpoint" subset of "want practical modular laptop"; but that's why old school Thinkpads are still so prized for some.

zokier• 5 years ago

Lenovo P15 series would be example of laptops that have not gone crazy in light and thin direction, so it has m.2 slots for ssds, and sodimms for RAM as you'd expect, all accessible by undoing few screws and lifting the back cover: https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-lenovo-thinkpad-p1...

Or some random Dell laptop that seems pretty comparable https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-dell-precision-15-...

bashinator• 5 years ago

Absolutely love my Thinkpad X1 for running linux; it's pretty much the same design but without the awful number pad. The fingerprint scanner even got support recently!

_trampeltier• 5 years ago

And a bit more ruggedness again. The superlight notebooks don't really if there are other things in the bag.

srikz• 5 years ago

Hoping more companies like frame.work[1] come up and succeed. They have shown it is possible and the laptop need not be bulky or very expensive and still be repairable. [1]: https://frame.work

trelane• 5 years ago

There are lots of user-serviceable laptops. Just not the mainstream brands.

Const-me• 5 years ago

To be fair, Microsoft does show how to replace the WiFi module, but I absolutely agree on the rest.

Fortunately, Microsoft is not the only company making laptops and filming videos, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMMjSF4QFw&ab_channel=HPSup...

The HP video is much less entertaining, much longer, and the narrator is likely a text-to-speech software. However, I think it’s more informative, for instance it shows how to assemble the device back.

hdjjhhvvhga• 5 years ago

I'm sure it's been said before by many, but I'd have a few extra mm of thickness to get back replaceable ram, ssd, wifi, etc.

This is the exact opposite of what manufacturers want so I don't think there is any hope of reversing this crazy trend. The vendors copying Apple don't understand that Apple controls their users as they are already hooked to their ecosystem so they have no choice, but people outside of this ecosystem do have a choice and when presented with a thin plate with everything glued and irreplaceable and no useful ports, they will simply look for another solution. Not to mention environmental problems created by this craze.

yokoprime2• 5 years ago

Looks like the Surface Laptop SE is pretty repairable if you can source parts, much better than the Surface Pro and Surface book series which is pretty much glued together, making it virtually impossible for novices to take apart without causing further damage.

masklinn• 5 years ago

The reason why they posted this is probably because the Surface Laptop was, as far as I remember, the only device to get a 0 repairability score from iFixit, with the conclusion that

The Surface Laptop is not a laptop. It’s a glue-filled monstrosity. There is nothing about it that is upgradable or long-lasting, and it literally can’t be opened without destroying it.

The only other thing which scored that low from them was an April Fool's teardown of an orange (which scored O).

aradaelli• 5 years ago

That's awesome, for me an easy repairable/upgradeable device is a big plus. Only being able to change the battery can increase the lifespan of the device hugely.

Kudos to MS and I hope this trends will pick up with other vendors as well.

ziml77• 5 years ago

I wonder where the bigger pressure is coming from to make more repairable devices. Is it because that's what it's starting to seem like the market wants based on competition? Or is it because they are trying to head off any regulations that might come if they don't show that they are making repairable devices?

MikusR2• 5 years ago

I am 99.9999999999999999% sure it's regulations.

rPlayer6554• 5 years ago

Which regulations?

namlem3• 5 years ago

The right to repair movement is gaining steam. Even if regulations don't get passed, consumers are sick of being ripped off by planned obsolescence and gouged for first party repairs.

tempodox• 5 years ago

I'd love to see something similar to this from Apple, but that will never happen as long as it's purely up to them.

dkjaudyeqooe• 5 years ago

If you want to skip to the actual video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVjjSqfp75g

em500• 5 years ago

I'm all for cheap devices, but I can't believe they're releasing a new model with a 1366x768 (probably non-IPS) display in 2022...

JOnAgain• 5 years ago

Starting at $249, though

friendlydog• 5 years ago

When you have warehouses full of them, it is better to use up the stock. If they are making new screens at that resolution I would completely agree. The price point is fairly low, but it is a very old spec from a technology standpoint.

notjulianjaynes2• 5 years ago

These are meant for schools to hand out to students. Many of these screens will be smashed in creative ways. Better to go with the cheaper to replace component.

olyjohn• 5 years ago

There are dialog boxes in Windows that won't even fit on the screen though. 768 is not enough pixels.

sgerenser• 5 years ago

Screen is pretty bad, but its s a very cheap device. At least its an 11.6" screen so PPI isn't crazy low. I still occasionally see new laptops with a 15.6" screen at that resolution which is bonkers.

torginus• 5 years ago

This. Kids are expected to use these devices every day for years. If we doubled or tripled the prices, the entire cost of the device would be amortized to just 1-2 dollars a day, if that.

However as things currently, are, I'd bet these will be the crappiest computer kids will encounter in their everyday lives. I wonder if forcing people to use these devices for years will create an aversion in them to pursue computer-related careers in the future.

Not exactly an aspirational goal for an educator.

mkdirp• 5 years ago

This is great, but I just want to give a word of caution.

Just because they've posted this, we shouldn't loosen the pressure valve on them. For all we know this could be just "let's post a single video so people will stop complaining to us that we're not repair-friendly". They might climb back into their anti-repair chairs and recline again after this. We need to keep the flame under their feet until repairability becomes part of their DNA, and even then we'll need to ensure they stay like that.

laputan_machine3• 5 years ago

Nice, but using Torx heads for the case is completely unnecessary. If the internals are fine using PH0 heads then the the case can use PH heads too.

I recently found out after wanting to do a quick repair on my (very cheap, Asda's own brand) toaster that it uses Torx security bits to prevent people from accessing the internals! Buying a set of quality bits is more expensive than just buying a new toaster... It boggles the mind.

rightbyte• 5 years ago

I think torx are better for robot assembly? However I think torx are fine from a repairability perspective.

jpgvm3• 5 years ago

They are common place enough now that I think they are fine. That wasn't always true but these days torx is widely available even at generic hardware stores (hell in Thailand I bought a set of torx drivers at a 7-11).

newsclues• 5 years ago

Torx security bits aren’t the same as normal torx

laputan_machine3• 5 years ago

You are correct when we're talking about using Torx for things that need to be torqued fairly highly, but in this case I disagree.

The fact that so many companies use Torx bits means that a lot of people have them handy now, but still, it's more faff than a PH/PZ bit, where almost anything with a thin flat edge can be used to turn it.

Torx are designed for high torque applications. Whenever they are used for low torque applications it is for "security" (read: we don't want you messing with this) purposes. I'd argue that a case does not need to be torqued that high (and if you do you probably risk cracking the case).

akvadrako2• 5 years ago

Nobody should use Philips when Torx will do. Philips is useful when you have weak parts that you want to avoid over-tightening. But otherwise, Torx is less prone to stripping and requires less downward pressure, making repairs easier.

laputan_machine3• 5 years ago

How hard are you torquing a screw into a plastic case? Really? If you're stripping a PH screw head it's almost always a case of using the wrong sized driver

BoorishBears• 5 years ago

Torx bits good enough to not strip your stuff are like 6 dollars for a set.

If the toaster is "totaled" over 6 dollars, that's because it was built to be one step above disposable and no one should reward them by buying it in the first place.

jakear• 5 years ago

Are you maybe confusing "Torx security" bits for plain Torx bits? Torx security bits have a hole punched through the center that is indeed a pain in the butt. Standard Torx bits on the other hand are pleasant to work with and extremely easy to come by (heck they give them out for free with most construction screw boxes).

dontcare007• 5 years ago

I hate the security bits. There's no good reason to have them.

michaelt• 5 years ago

I think this varies by country.

A builder picking up a pack of screws won't buy something he doesn't have a screwdriver for, and a basic toolbox will only have screwdrivers for the most common screw heads - giving these things quite a bit of inertia.

So an American might consider Torx a widely used screw that everyone has a driver for. Whereas a Brit might rank Torx as an obscure security screw, like pentalobe.

throwaway946513• 5 years ago

I opened up a 2017 or 18 Dell Inspiron last week to replace the hard disk with an SSD for someone. Of the 4 screws holding down the hard drive caddy, 1 stripped the head. The other three used almost no force to remove. This last one had to be drilled out just to remove the drive.

If the computer had used Torx screws in place, I'd never have had the issue since the force required wouldn't have stripped the head while a PH head had cammed the driver requiring the excess use of a drill.

stormbrew• 5 years ago

Frankly I wish philips head screws would just die off. They're so easy to strip, it's frequently hard to identify the right size bit to use (the wrong size will work until it doesn't), etc. If they all got replaced with torx or robertson heads tomorrow I'd be very happy.

johnohara• 5 years ago

FTA: "Repairability is a selling point for the Surface Laptop SE in particular because the laptop is being marketed to schools, where laptops can be dropped, spilled on, or otherwise abused by kids who may or may not know better."

This should read: "... where laptops will be dropped, spilled on, and abused by kids who know better."

Besides, many kids enjoy learning by way of repairing. Especially if it works afterword.

pacaro• 5 years ago

I worked on a project in the mid 90s where our customer (an electric utility) wanted to issue rugged laptops to field engineers. The relevant comment from a manger at the utility was "you have to realize, these are guys who can break a hammer"

inetknght• 5 years ago

Repairability is a selling point for the Surface Laptop SE in particular because the laptop is being marketed to schools

Well that's a problem. Repairability should be marketed to everyone, not just schools.

acd• 5 years ago

There should in general be repair friendly editions of devices design for easy repair, ram upgrade and ssd upgrade. Open boot loader, open source driver and open hardware manuals.

okl2• 5 years ago

editions? Why not make products repair-friendly by default?

oneoff786• 5 years ago

To sell them a new one instead

pmarreck• 5 years ago

Impressive, I guess?

jmuguy• 5 years ago

I once had to recover data from a dead 1st generation Surface Pro. That required a heat gun, a new torx set and about three hours of time prying the thing apart, completely destroying it in the process. I'm glad to see things swinging back in the other direction.

chaorace• 5 years ago

I wonder if this was influenced by Valve's recent "Deck" teardown video?[1] I'd love to see this become a trend in the "boutique" hardware space -- it's a lot harder to cut corners on the internals when you're shining a spotlight on them!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxnr2FAADAs

jpgvm3• 5 years ago

Teardown video is good, almost on par with something from iFixit. Maybe a bit less precise/well rehearsed but that is OK.

Also like that it's just a normal engineer doing it and not some marketing person/"advocate". Makes it seem much more relaxed and well, normal. Chill dude sporting some tats and speaking normally as he pulls something apart shouldn't be something amazing or anything but it's just such a rarity in todays carefully groomed public image machinery that we see from big companies.

symlinkk• 5 years ago

Do you seriously think tattoos are still counter culture? If anything it’s counter culture to not have tattoos and be clean shaven.

culturestate• 5 years ago

Do you seriously think tattoos are still counter culture?

This depends a lot on where you live and what your ethnic and religious background is. There are plenty of places and people left in the world who look down on body modification.

donkeybeer• 5 years ago

I think he meant the opposite, in that the tattoos would make it feel like a normal guy.

judge2020• 5 years ago

Thankfully he's wearing an ESD bracelet which (i assume) is connected to a ground instead of a livestrong or WWJD bracelet.

sdo724• 5 years ago

I'm not sure how this would help people to fix this device as the laptop is being sold only to educational entities in bulk. Normal users won't be able to buy. Most people can't fix these since they belong to schools and the schools probably won't spend money on fixing these.

reidjs2• 5 years ago

Have you considered that it might help the people at the school fix it?

jdavis703• 5 years ago

Yes, and that it could help inquisitive students? I know in the old days nerdy kids would do teardowns before we even had YouTube. I would assume kids these days still do it.

sdo724• 5 years ago

I doubt that the school IT people would attempt to fix it. That's a different job. I haven't heard a school IT person even attempts to replace a laptop battery. Any attempt fixing it has a good amount of risk of breaking the laptops. Hence, they school would have to outsource or rely on a 3rd party to fix and the cost would become even higher.

nerdponx• 5 years ago

The somewhat-cynical answer (in addition to the obvious answer that it still is useful for employees of companies that buy it) is that this helps continue rebuilding goodwill among techies, hackers, etc. Much like their investment in open source, there is nontrivial ROI from marketing and reputation alone. They are probably trying to stay ahead of Right To Repair sentiment.

momothereal• 5 years ago

Many schools and school districts have technicians to repair hardware like projectors and computers. When I was in high-school (10 years ago), we were pretty early in the laptop-for-every-student transition, and there were 1-2 part-time technicians who would repair laptops all day long.

sdo724• 5 years ago

See my other comment above.

Hiring a part-time technician to fix the hardware isn't cheap. It's probably cheaper to outsource it to a 3rd party or even sell away the laptop and buy a new one. It doesn't make economic senes to have a technician to fix a $250 laptop.

SubiculumCode• 5 years ago

Microsoft is such a weird company these days. So many contradictory patterns across its arms that it is hard to characterize it as having a singular corporate philosophy. On the one hand, you have windows which has moved more and more towards surveillance and users not really controlling/owning their own software...but then you have the moves towards embracing (and not extinguishing) open source interoperability, and now promoting DIY repairs on their hardware.

namlem3• 5 years ago

It doesn't have a singular corporate philosophy. MS has long had a reputation for inter-department rivalry and even animosity. From what I understand, things have gotten somewhat better, but there's still a lot of tension and disagreement.

0000011111• 5 years ago

Thats great. The NFL players drop, throw and break the iPad like devices all the time. We got to fix these broken tablets people!

rwaksmunski• 5 years ago

Wasn't the education sector eaten alive by Chromebooks and iPads? Is Microsoft trying to desperately hold on to a market segment here?

jackvalentine• 5 years ago

Purchasing my wife a new laptop last year I was delighted to find the model we ended up choosing had a detailed service manual available: https://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/inspiron-13-7306-2-in-1-laptop...

This kind of thing should be incentivised as a part of right to repair laws.

mensetmanusman• 5 years ago

Google Chromebooks were very disruptive to the educational environment that Apple used to own.

I am a huge fan of the iPad, but it is definitely too expensive for the educational market. I would love if they released a durable version.

Microsoft posts its own teardown and repair video for the Surface Laptop SE

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